Homosexuality in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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I'm homosexual myself and I'm really sad at some peoples reaction... (especially the xxxmummyxxx guy)

Sex is part of human life, why shouldn't it have place in a game? Because America is often such a anti-everything country?

Anyway before going totally off topic: I really wouldn't mind more gay couples in the game but of course you can twist and turn every story and character yourself, so what's the problem?


Also some guy said that many people are disgusted by gaysexuals and think that it should be illigal in games and other media?

I'm disgusted in the extreme by many hardcore-religions, but I still use it in games, i'd like to seperate the real world and the fantasy world when I play games/read books/watch tv sometimes and join RPG games like Pathfinder.

You should to.

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Sincubus,

I think it's the perils of writing, honestly. We have long debates on the boards on why people would willingly serve evil deities. We have threads on all sorts of 'taboo' subjects. Pathfinder itself is PG-13*.

I find this a good thing, in moderation. I think things like PFS scenarios work best at PG, because of the broad audience. Modules are a different critter.**

But, in writing at a mature level, you're going to offend somebody lots of somebodies most likely. The balance is how much freedom do you want to have vs making a profit? I don't care if the occasional same sex couple, or coupling shows up in a book, I do care if I have to read through a graphic sex session in the middle of my source book.*** The end result is I get the freedom to determine what to support, and they get the freedom to write what they want.

The idea of making something 'illegal' to talk about though, flies in the face of the USA's concept of free speech.****

*

Spoiler:
Well sometimes more than that... HMM for example.

**
Spoiler:
Scenarios can 'reach' more people. I'd like the confidence of taking my godkids or niece and nephew to a convention on a day pass and not have to worry about the faction mission being "You must disrupt this orgy with vials of itching powder" It's not my place to explain to a 10 year old what an 'orgy' is, it's their parents.

***
Spoiler:
Hetero or Homo sex scene. I'm a 'fade to black' kind of guy myself.

****
Spoiler:
I'm not a scholar, but I hold the freedom of speech includes the freedom to offend. I can stand on a street corner and be as vile as I want. I can try it on here, and get kickbanned. Or as I say, "I have a right to speak. I don't have a right to your bullhorn."

Sovereign Court

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Matthew Morris wrote:

Sincubus,

I think it's the perils of writing, honestly. We have long debates on the boards on why people would willingly serve evil deities. We have threads on all sorts of 'taboo' subjects. Pathfinder itself is PG-13*.

Pathfinder is only PG-13 because Western society (not qualified to talk about any other) has such a positive attitude to disturbing levels of violence.

In any sane world most RPGs would probably carry big warning stickers saying: PARENTS: CAUTION: EXTREME VIOLENCE TREATED CASUALLY


Matthew Morris wrote:
But, in writing at a mature level, you're going to offend somebody lots of somebodies most likely. The balance is how much freedom do you want to have vs making a profit? I don't care if the occasional same sex couple, or coupling shows up in a book, I do care if I have to read through a graphic sex session in the middle of my source book.*** The end result is I get the freedom to determine what to support, and they get the freedom to write what they want.

Can you cite a specific customer post or Paizo employee comment indicating that's what anyone would like to see in Pathfinder? Can you point to any TSR/WotC/Paizo product where a hetero "graphic sex session" occurs? You seem to be the only one bringing it up.

Matthew Morris wrote:
The idea of making something 'illegal' to talk about though, flies in the face of the USA's concept of free speech.

No one else is bringing up censorship either.

Silver Crusade

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GeraintElberion wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Sincubus,

I think it's the perils of writing, honestly. We have long debates on the boards on why people would willingly serve evil deities. We have threads on all sorts of 'taboo' subjects. Pathfinder itself is PG-13*.

Pathfinder is only PG-13 because Western society (not qualified to talk about any other) has such a positive attitude to disturbing levels of violence.

In any sane world most RPGs would probably carry big warning stickers saying: PARENTS: CAUTION: EXTREME VIOLENCE TREATED CASUALLY

Please replace "Western" with "American".

I'm sure that several artwork in Paizo products would draw attention on grounds of extreme violence here (hello, APG "Inquistor gutting an undead" pic), while an occasional nipple (which causes panic and emergency Congress sessions in the US) would just float by.

Oh, and we're a 95% Catholic country, BTW.

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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
But, in writing at a mature level, you're going to offend somebody lots of somebodies most likely. The balance is how much freedom do you want to have vs making a profit? I don't care if the occasional same sex couple, or coupling shows up in a book, I do care if I have to read through a graphic sex session in the middle of my source book.*** The end result is I get the freedom to determine what to support, and they get the freedom to write what they want.
Can you cite a specific customer post or Paizo employee comment indicating that's what anyone would like to see in Pathfinder? Can you point to any TSR/WotC/Paizo product where a hetero "graphic sex session" occurs? You seem to be the only one bringing it up.

Strangely enough, I don't need to. I was saying what would turn me off of buying a book. Namely having Jack and John togetehr wouldn't. Two pages of Jack and Jill having wild detailed sex in my book would.

I do find it funny that you comment on the hetro part when I said the sex/race of the partners doesn't matter.

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:


Matthew Morris wrote:
The idea of making something 'illegal' to talk about though, flies in the face of the USA's concept of free speech.
No one else is bringing up censorship either.
sincubus wrote:

Also some guy said that many people are disgusted by gaysexuals and think that it should be illigal in games and other media?

Mayhaps you should read more. I'd suggest the specific post I was replying to as a start.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
I do care if I have to read through a graphic sex session in the middle of my source book.*** The end result is I get the freedom to determine what to support, and they get the freedom to write what they want.
Can you cite a specific customer post or Paizo employee comment indicating that's what anyone would like to see in Pathfinder? Can you point to any TSR/WotC/Paizo product where a hetero "graphic sex session" occurs? You seem to be the only one bringing it up.
Strangely enough, I don't need to. I was saying what would turn me off of buying a book. Namely having Jack and John togetehr wouldn't. Two pages of Jack and Jill having wild detailed sex in my book would.

If I bought a Golarion sourcebook, and there were two pages on changing the oil in my modern car, it would bother me too. But since that isn't going to happen -- much like a graphic sex scene -- why would I bring it up to complain about?

Matthew Morris wrote:
I do find it funny that you comment on the hetro part when I said the sex/race of the partners doesn't matter.

I included "hetero" because we are supposed discussing homosexuality in Golarion, not a derail into graphic sex. My point being that graphic sex scenes of any kind aren't making any appearance.

The Exchange

My 2cp. And that's about what it's worth too by the way.

I'm glad Paizo had the stones to create a "living world", with a variety of people and views and hobbies and hair colors and.... okay you get the point.

I agree that... overly in depth exploration... of an NPC's sexual preference is a bad idea. But since Paizo goes no further than saying "Oh BTW, NPCX is with NPCY I don't think we have to worry about that.

Now if you guys will excuse me I have to level up my Celestial Bloodline Sorceress... Oh and she's a LG good lesbian, her girlfriend is the Ftr in the rival group in SCAP.

Yeah, I didn't think it mattered either. ;)


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
The idea of making something 'illegal' to talk about though, flies in the face of the USA's concept of free speech.
No one else is bringing up censorship either.
sincubus wrote:

Also some guy said that many people are disgusted by gaysexuals and think that it should be illigal in games and other media?

Mayhaps you should read more. I'd suggest the specific post I was replying to as a start.

There was one person 3+ years ago advocating in this thread to make anything illegal; no one since the thread was resurrected (again) has re-taken that position. Yes, sincubus commented on that old poster's position, but it wasn't necessary for you to attempt to derail the thread onto a discussion about the limits of the First Amendment... a Real World discussion, not one of anyone in Golarion.


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I wonder if a picture of an ooze splitting in two would cause people to panic?

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doctor_wu wrote:
I wonder if a picture of an ooze splitting in two would cause people to panic?

Depends, are nipples involved?


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"Do you have any idea how hard it is to keep nipple clamps on an Ooze?"


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


This game has hookers in it too, since 1st edition when there was even a random hooker generator table in the DMG. Last I checked, hookers were also considered controversial. Except maybe in the Old Testament where Samson goes and finds one in Gaza and spends the night with her and the bible is totally cool with that. Ditto owning slaves, which has fallen out of fashion in recent years.

That said, if you're running a game for young children, you can censor out anything you consider inappropriate. Don't want hookers and brothels? Don't have them. Don't want same-sex relationships? You don't have to have them either.

You know, that's a damn good point! :)

I keep any actual hanky panky off-screen/fade to black, mainly as a matter of good taste and because I don't find that sort of 'sexy' roleplaying interesting.

I'm definitely down with the good old harlot encounters table, though. It fits the somewhat gritty fantasy I often like to run. I have used brothels, whores, pimps, etc. in play. One session even involved the PCs rescuing a young girl from a brothel.

I would not actually use a graphic portrayal of a sexual assault in play, for reasons of good taste (and because half my players are women). That sort of thing has been implied a few times, mainly in the context of horror games. I don't use it much.

I've seen a couple of the PCs in my all-male Pendragon game do some bad things...But that's 'off screen', too.

In a happier sense, love, romance, starting a family, and so on have been part of several games I've run. PCs have had sweethearts, wives, and children.

Given all that, I think I've only ever had one gay NPC. There might have been others, but I can't recall any. I should probably have had at least a couple by now, if only for the sake of 'realism.'

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I removed a post. Don't make things personal.

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The Scarnettis don't like that Cyrdak Drokkus and Sir Jasper have a relationship; furthermore, they really don't like that no one in Sandpoint seems to mind but them.

Homophobia is already in Golarion's canon, though it's apparently rather out of fashion and something of a minority view - if we can take Sandpoint's culture as indicative of a Avistani mainstream, anyway.

Contributor

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Graphic sex scenes aren't something we're likely to publish. I like a little adult content as much as the next gamer, but heaving bosoms and thrusting manhoods isn't really our business.

Homosexuality is a fact of life in Golarion. And like folks in our own world, people in Golarion have a wide range of responses to it--some positive, some negative, the majority not really caring much. People like what they like, and when you've got folks of entirely different *species* living as your next-door neighbors, I suspect the average person from Golarion doesn't see Jack and Tim being married as much of an issue. After all, Todd the human baker's elven wife is, like, 600 years older than him--that seems like a bigger difference to me...

The point is, we've left enough room that you can do whatever you want in your own game. Whether it's based on race, sexuality, ethnicity, religion, etc., both prejudice and acceptance are powerful drives for characters, and extremely useful to storytellers. If you want your gay characters to overcome adversity, cool. If you want them to feel accepted and normal, that's cool too. Choose what will make your players happiest.

Also, you can expect to see more openly gay characters continuing to come down the line, particularly in Pathfinder fiction.

Silver Crusade

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James Sutter wrote:

Graphic sex scenes aren't something we're likely to publish. I like a little adult content as much as the next gamer, but heaving bosoms and thrusting manhoods isn't really our business.

....

Also, you can expect to see more openly gay characters continuing to come down the line

:3

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Dog gammit, it's 15 to midnight here, I *almost* tagged this day as totally ordinary, and then I see a post from Mikaze that I fully agree with.

Dang.


James Sutter wrote:

Graphic sex scenes aren't something we're likely to publish. I like a little adult content as much as the next gamer, but heaving bosoms and thrusting manhoods isn't really our business.

Homosexuality is a fact of life in Golarion. And like folks in our own world, people in Golarion have a wide range of responses to it--some positive, some negative, the majority not really caring much. People like what they like, and when you've got folks of entirely different *species* living as your next-door neighbors, I suspect the average person from Golarion doesn't see Jack and Tim being married as much of an issue. After all, Todd the human baker's elven wife is, like, 600 years older than him--that seems like a bigger difference to me...

The point is, we've left enough room that you can do whatever you want in your own game. Whether it's based on race, sexuality, ethnicity, religion, etc., both prejudice and acceptance are powerful drives for characters, and extremely useful to storytellers. If you want your gay characters to overcome adversity, cool. If you want them to feel accepted and normal, that's cool too. Choose what will make your players happiest.

Also, you can expect to see more openly gay characters continuing to come down the line, particularly in Pathfinder fiction.

This. A million times this.

Now, I like adult content in my games. Play with me, and you can expect foul language, highly graphic violence, children thrown in harm's way and even killed, sexual violence, values dissonance, non-black and white moral situations, and nightmare fuel. I like my games like that. However, I wouldn't ask Paizo to put that in their published materiel. The sort of game I like to play is not the sort of game a lot of people like to play, and if Paizo published the kind of stuff that I homebrew it'd make a lot of people uncomfortable. I may be willing to handle rape in my games, but a lot of people don't want to go into that territory for very good reasons, and doing so in a Paizo product would cause a whole lot more trouble that it would be worth. I have the necessary tools to go into that territory myself, and I have the ability to back out of such territory when the players start getting uncomfortable (I'd never go into things like rape and child murder with a group of players that didn't want that kind of stuff in the game), and I'm happy that way.

The same applies to the comments about graphic sex scenes. That's something that would turn off a lot of people, and Paizo is right to avoid it and leave that sort of content up to the players. Maybe I'd like to see a bit more coverage of the attitudes to homosexuality, especially the negative ones, but I can live without it. I approve of the way Paizo handles homosexuality and cultural and racial diversity very, very highly.


Taliesin Hoyle wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I'll further go on record to say that at LEAST one of our iconics is homosexual. Not that we've explicitly revealed who it is yet, since that doesn't really matter at all for the purposes of Pre-Gen PCs.
Seoni. Just to upset her fanboys with a torment worthy of Tantalos.

Her fangirls, however, would be delighted to no end. :D

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Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:


Now, I like adult content in my games. Play with me, and you can expect foul language, highly graphic violence, children thrown in harm's way and even killed, sexual violence, values dissonance, non-black and white moral situations, and nightmare fuel. I like my games like that. However, I wouldn't ask Paizo to put that in their published materiel. The sort of game I like to play is not the sort of game a lot of people like to play, and if Paizo published the kind of stuff that I homebrew it'd make a lot of people uncomfortable. I may be willing to handle rape in my games, but a lot of people don't want to go into that territory for very good reasons, and doing so in a Paizo...

I agree with this. I can introduce my Godkids to Golarion, and can run mature themes with my adult friends.


Mike Selinker wrote:
Interestingly, Sean Reynolds and I just had the "vote with your wallet" discussion about Orson Scott Card and his apparent anti-gay beliefs. I came down on the side of "I hope the intolerant folks buy my stuff," but I can see the other side.

I don't approve of Orson Scott Card's beliefs on homosexuality at all, but I still own some of his stuff. I like his guides to writing fiction a great deal. Sure, I don't agree with certain beliefs the man has, but he doesn't inject them into his books of advice for writers, and that's good enough for me. I don't buy into the whole "don't buy things from people who's beliefs you disagree with" thing unless those beliefs are injected into the item in question. Until he starts writing books that violently rail against homosexuality, which I don't see him doing, I'll continue to be willing to read his work.


Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
Until he starts writing books that violently rail against homosexuality, which I don't see him doing, I'll continue to be willing to read his work.

I guess it depends on your definition of "violent."


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
Until he starts writing books that violently rail against homosexuality, which I don't see him doing, I'll continue to be willing to read his work.
I guess it depends on your definition of "violent."

I did not see that one coming. At all. He really wrote something like that? Wow.

Former VP of Finance

James Sutter wrote:
Graphic sex scenes aren't something we're likely to publish. I like a little adult content as much as the next gamer, but heaving bosoms and thrusting manhoods isn't really our business.

Does it undermine your credibility if I append a "..yet." to that?

Dark Archive

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Chris Self wrote:
James Sutter wrote:
Graphic sex scenes aren't something we're likely to publish. I like a little adult content as much as the next gamer, but heaving bosoms and thrusting manhoods isn't really our business.
Does it undermine your credibility if I append a "..yet." to that?

Ooh, Pathfinder the MMO! Pathfinder the Comic Book! Pathfinder, the Porno?

[tangent]I always wondered if Chris Self had an evil twin named Chris Other.[/tangent]

Then again, it could be totally innocent. A Pathfinder Clothing Line could be all heaving bosoms and whatnot, if they sold Seoni-inspired dresses and lingerie and items of clothing that cross the line between dresses and lingerie...

Mmm. I think I want that catalog.


Set wrote:
Pathfinder, the Porno?

That already exists if you know where to look.

Silver Crusade

You know what NPC Gallery 2 needs? An all dwarf bard party in the style of Bearforce1.

Set wrote:

Then again, it could be totally innocent. A Pathfinder Clothing Line could be all heaving bosoms and whatnot, if they sold Seoni-inspired dresses and lingerie and items of clothing that cross the line between dresses and lingerie...

Kind of wondering just what Sajan's shir...arm..things...would be marketed as.

Okay, now it's actually bothering me. WHAT are they?

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I pass just playing around, building a pantheon, and you know what occurred to me? Want to make homosexuality really okay in a culture? [Sorry if this has already come up in the thread] Make two of your gods gay! It really struck me that two of the Dragon Empire goddesses were lovers, although, a la the Greeks and other real-world cultures, it's not clear weather they are long-term lovers, or just have occasional flings. But what if you actually had a pair of same-sex gods? And not the god of gay-love I and the god of gay-love II, but like the god of farming and the god of banking or something (I tried to avoid god of crafting, god of blacksmiths, god of sailors, or anything else possibly stereotypical just to make them as non-niche as possible). And don't make them Ernie-and-Burt housemates or friends-with-benefits, make them a married couple. If you have gay married gods, it's pretty damn hard for a faith to say it's not okay for it's followers to do the same.

Again, as with anything, to each their own level of comfort, but it struck me that this might be the ultimate fantasy genre symbol of it being a non-issue.

Contributor

Mikaze wrote:

You know what NPC Gallery 2 needs? An all dwarf bard party in the style of Bearforce1.

Set wrote:

Then again, it could be totally innocent. A Pathfinder Clothing Line could be all heaving bosoms and whatnot, if they sold Seoni-inspired dresses and lingerie and items of clothing that cross the line between dresses and lingerie...

Kind of wondering just what Sajan's shir...arm..things...would be marketed as.

Okay, now it's actually bothering me. WHAT are they?

They're sleeves, specifically "separate sleeves," which were a common part of Elizabethan costume. He's just wearing them without the rest of the outfit.

Silver Crusade

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Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


They're sleeves, specifically "separate sleeves," which were a common part of Elizabethan costume. He's just wearing them without the rest of the outfit.

See now that just raises the next question of "why is Sajan so cheap"?

Silver Crusade

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Mosaic wrote:

I pass just playing around, building a pantheon, and you know what occurred to me? Want to make homosexuality really okay in a culture? [Sorry if this has already come up in the thread] Make two of your gods gay! It really struck me that two of the Dragon Empire goddesses were lovers, although, a la the Greeks and other real-world cultures, it's not clear weather they are long-term lovers, or just have occasional flings. But what if you actually had a pair of same-sex gods? And not the god of gay-love I and the god of gay-love II, but like the god of farming and the god of banking or something (I tried to avoid god of crafting, god of blacksmiths, god of sailors, or anything else possibly stereotypical just to make them as non-niche as possible). And don't make them Ernie-and-Burt housemates or friends-with-benefits, make them a married couple. If you have gay married gods, it's pretty damn hard for a faith to say it's not okay for it's followers to do the same.

Again, as with anything, to each their own level of comfort, but it struck me that this might be the ultimate fantasy genre symbol of it being a non-issue.

Came close to this in my homebrew. The Big Good trinity of risen deities were the CG female former-ghaele goddess of the moon, LG male former archon god of the sun, and a NG former-planetar goddess of the sky as the central figure. Some cultures saw both the CG and LG deities being full on consorts of the NG one along with all the implications that would bring, some just saw them as merely strong allies devoted to a common good.

My stance was that none of those gods ever said anything one way or the other on the matter, because which way they swang and with whom wasn't important in the grand scheme of things. Truth of the matter was that a romantic connection was one of the many things that bound those three together, but that came after their rise.

As for having two same-sex deities actually hitched, for reals...can't help but think it'd be best to have two with thematically or logically connected interests. Like a god of vigilance and a god of cities, or a goddess of farming and a goddess of the hearth.

Or you can get really adventurous and start pairing up different racial deities... I remember someone saying something like this actually turned up recently in Golarion. Dragon Empires?

(I remember a thread on another forum that basically built off the idea that Corellan Larethian and Gruumsh were lovers that had a bad breakup. That thread went all over the place.)


Mikaze wrote:

Came close to this in my homebrew. The Big Good trinity of risen deities were the CG female former-ghaele goddess of the moon, LG male former archon god of the sun, and a NG former-planetar goddess of the sky as the central figure. Some cultures saw both the CG and LG deities being full on consorts of the NG one along with all the implications that would bring, some just saw them as merely strong allies devoted to a common good.

My stance was that none of those gods ever said anything one way or the other on the matter, because which way they swang and with whom wasn't important in the grand scheme of things. Truth of the matter was that a romantic connection was one of the many things that bound those three together, but that came after their rise.

Interesting - in the spouse and I's long-running campaign, a trinity of triplets ascended, and being as they were products of non-consensual activities during a raid by drow on surface elves, and a later follow-up resulted in the triplets being split up and raised in different environs, the end result was a male bard of dark skin, purple tongue, and blonde hair/blue eyes who was the CN sort and professional bedwarmer; a warrior priestess who was supposed to hunt her brother down and bring him back for sacrificing who failed, got driderfied, then uncursed because her brother opted to help her; and the albino sister who ended up one of those near-naked sword dancey sorts who helped the other sister lose the spider bits. All of this was part of a game being worked out among deities and resulted in the three becoming demigods...and with the more militant one having been raised amongst the Underdark dwellers there was a very distinctive and unmistakeable lack of certain taboos in regards to her views of her 'big brother'. Or her 'little sister'.

Woo, tangent. Also, that thing? With the tsundere times three? THAT HAPPENED.


I believe its up to the DM/Players to decide where they want to take their game. Let us decide whether or not Harsk is doing Lem in the back of the wagon between dungeon crawls.
My suggestion would be for Paizo to spend more creative time making their books hold together and less time creating a politically correct, diversity utopia. Leave that to the players.

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Aretas wrote:

I believe its up to the DM/Players to decide where they want to take their game. Let us decide whether or not Harsk is doing Lem in the back of the wagon between dungeon crawls.

My suggestion would be for Paizo to spend more creative time making their books hold together and less time creating a politically correct, diversity utopia. Leave that to the players.

Heh, right now I can choose to filter what my godkids see of Golarion, and let their parents decide* what they want them exposed to. I like the balance just where it is. I can steer them towards positive (and negative) role models for just about anything.** This is a good thing, and what I, as a parent, would want to be able to do.***

*

Spoiler:
They're their parents' children, I'm just renting. So we also talk about this. My sister is a bit more fundamental than me, so I made a point of explaining to the kids that a cleric character worships a fictional deity, the player doesn't owe the fictional deity anything.

**

Spoiler:
Except left handed people, apparently

***

Spoiler:
Again, no kids of my own, nor am I likely to have any. I tell my Godkids, that my kids "Would make the Amish look hip and trendy."

Contributor

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Aretas wrote:

I believe its up to the DM/Players to decide where they want to take their game. Let us decide whether or not Harsk is doing Lem in the back of the wagon between dungeon crawls.

My suggestion would be for Paizo to spend more creative time making their books hold together and less time creating a politically correct, diversity utopia. Leave that to the players.

Um...why? It's fairly clear that Valeros has a thing going with both Seoni and Merisiel. Is a polygamous V somehow less scandalous than a polyamorous triangle? And if Seoni and Merisiel hooked up while Valeros was out of the picture, what then?

Simply having homosexual and bisexual characters represented doesn't make the world a politically correct diversity utoptia, it just makes it more realistic. I'm certain that if Harsk and Lem were an item, there are corners of Golarion where they could get arrested for shagging, the same as Kyra the cleric can't openly worship her goddess in Taldor. Not having every law and statue penned it, however, lets people figure out what they want for their own campaigns.

I'm certain there are anti-miscegenation laws on the books in places too, and in some places Harsk/Lem would be illegal due to dwarf/halfling being illegal. In other places, I'd except the relevant statute would be "so long as you don't do it in the street and frighten the horses," and the back of a wagon certainly counts as that.

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Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
It's fairly clear that Valeros has a thing going with both Seoni and Merisiel.

Whaaaaaaaaaaat?! HARSK/VALEROS OTP.


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They refer to Harsk as little bear. Lem is Goldilocks. Everything from little bear is just right.

Shadow Lodge

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Aretas wrote:

I believe its up to the DM/Players to decide where they want to take their game. Let us decide whether or not Harsk is doing Lem in the back of the wagon between dungeon crawls.

My suggestion would be for Paizo to spend more creative time making their books hold together and less time creating a politically correct, diversity utopia. Leave that to the players.

This doesn't make much sense to me. Simply noting that homosexuals exist in the Golarion setting is not an attempt to be politically correct. If that were true, and you believe in a god, then god was being politically correct by creating this Universe when he allowed the existence of homosexuals.

Homosexuality is a real sexual preference seen in nature...why shouldn't it be found in Golarion? To me saying it is up to the DM to decide whether they want homosexuals in Golarion is the same as saying that every human in Pathfinder should be white and it is up to the DM to decide if he wants to add black people.

Does anyone else find this entire thread amusing or am I just twisted?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Asphere wrote:


Does anyone else find this entire thread amusing or am I just twisted?

It's not only you. I'm just waiting for the right moment to start poking Compassionate Conservatives in here. :)


I myself have never given this issue much thought. All the NPC's I make tend to be straight, and all of my characters are straight. If written in an AP that Character X is homosexual than, character X is homosexual and I give it little more thought than that.

My reason for this is simple. I don't think about it. A character's sexual orientation is NEVER on my mind. When I create characters or adventures pretty much everyone is straight. For the simple reason, that is my base assumption about characters.

In literature or film I approach the work with the base assumption the character is straight until I am told otherwise. If I am told otherwise, that is perfectly OK.

So for a person like me, if Paizo does not publish a gay character that area would not be represented.

Now that I am aware that I know of no gay characters in my campaign world I may add some. At that point however I run the risk of just creating a stereotype. I know plenty of gay people because my sister in law is a married lesbian. Still I do not know how gay people act if there is not a straight person present. They probably act the same, but I don't know this for sure, any more than I know what a conversation between two females is like without a male present.

I'll let Paizo tell me what characters are gay in Golarion. As long as it is not Seoni, I should have no issue.

Dark Archive

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I think it would be great if Damiel was the gay iconic.

I made a gay alchemist for PFS inspired by all my favorite gay friends and characters from pop culture. I could feel some of the straight male players at the table getting awkward whenever I'd play him. The girls loved him though.

Shadow Lodge

coff wrote:

I think it would be great if Damiel was the gay iconic.

I made a gay alchemist for PFS inspired by all my favorite gay friends and characters from pop culture. I could feel some of the straight male players at the table getting awkward whenever I'd play him. The girls loved him though.

One of my former players is slightly homophobic and I would poke fun at his character often putting him in uncomfortable situations or twisting his words around to mean something that had some homophobic tendencies (i.e. he kept referring to he and another character's encounter in a barn). He would get really upset and say things like "I am not homophobic I just don't want you to make my character out to be something he is not." I challenged him to prove it by playing a homosexual character in a new campaign we were starting - he flat out refused. We still tease him to this day. Interestingly enough he has no problem playing a straight female character.


coff wrote:

I think it would be great if Damiel was the gay iconic.

I made a gay alchemist for PFS inspired by all my favorite gay friends and characters from pop culture. I could feel some of the straight male players at the table getting awkward whenever I'd play him. The girls loved him though.

Oh my Jesus H. Christ on a flaming unicycle!!! I am stealing this!!!

Sovereign Court

So I once played a wizard that you sure would have known he was "different" He talked liked a stereotype flaming gay man wore nothing but purple, had a staff that was candy stripped. He went by the name... Alexander the ... Wait for it "Grape"

I also played an elf that was very, very petite and was raised by his mother to be a female. He thought he was one, dressed like one, looked like one (Easy for an elf in 1st ed days) No one in the party knew until latter in the adventure.

I currently have in inquisitor of Calistria that is Bi. While she prefers males, she enjoys her fun with females, she is after all a follower of pleasure. Oh and to say she does not care about the species either (Human, Elf, Halfling...) if they might offer her pleasure, she will try it.

I have also often toyed with playing a very masculine female paladin, she could almost... ALMOST pass for male unless you look close.

Personally I think it is great that Paizo has gay characters in Pathfinder. Sadly the American public is not so accepting (Trust me I know as I have a ton of friends in the GLBTI community) Just ask them about their equal rights i.e. marriage if they can not marry someone they love just because of their sexual orientation or gender expression, then mixed race or religion should not. Funny how even SOME 3rd would countries accept these things more than we do.

OH and I'd love to see Paizo expand on this with not just Gay but transgender or intersex characters

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Asphere wrote:
One of my former players is slightly homophobic and I would poke fun at his character often putting him in uncomfortable situations or twisting his words around to mean something that had some homophobic tendencies (i.e. he kept referring to he and another character's encounter in a barn). He would get really upset and say things like "I am not homophobic I just don't want you to make my character out to be something he is not." I challenged him to prove it by playing a homosexual character in a new campaign we were starting - he flat out refused. We still tease him to this day. Interestingly enough he has no problem playing a straight female character.

I wanted to hit on this...

Not playing a gay character isn't an admission of being 'homophobic'. Heck the closest I ever tried playing was a bi character and he/I freaked quite a few players out by accident.*

For me, the character has to have a 'voice' in my head. Most of my lasting characters do. I enjoy playing the occasional female character, but part of it comes from trying to write women that don't sound like men writing women. I'm apparently good at it if my peer group is any sign. (story) Of course, since I grew up with all my parents' friends' kids being girls, I've always been more comfortable talking to women.

*

Spoiler:
Amusingly in that game the DM's wife was playing a male bard. I'd modeled my duskblade after Jack Harkness, she modeled her bard after Jack Sparrow. I was also the only player that remembered her character was male.

(story)

Spoiler:
My SF0 character I mentioned above got into a discussion with a (female) prostitute while investigating gun running. As the conversation progressed, apparently my body language disturbed the storyteller enough that he had to take a break. I said, "My female character is chatting up your female prostitute. I am not chatting you up Parker. The divorce didn't traumatize me that much.

Shadow Lodge

Matthew Morris wrote:
Asphere wrote:
One of my former players is slightly homophobic and I would poke fun at his character often putting him in uncomfortable situations or twisting his words around to mean something that had some homophobic tendencies (i.e. he kept referring to he and another character's encounter in a barn). He would get really upset and say things like "I am not homophobic I just don't want you to make my character out to be something he is not." I challenged him to prove it by playing a homosexual character in a new campaign we were starting - he flat out refused. We still tease him to this day. Interestingly enough he has no problem playing a straight female character.

I wanted to hit on this...

Not playing a gay character isn't an admission of being 'homophobic'. Heck the closest I ever tried playing was a bi character and he/I freaked quite a few players out by accident.*

For me, the character has to have a 'voice' in my head. Most of my lasting characters do. I enjoy playing the occasional female character, but part of it comes from trying to write women that don't sound like men writing women. I'm apparently good at it if my peer group is any sign. (story) Of course, since I grew up with all my parents' friends' kids being girls, I've always been more comfortable talking to women.

*** spoiler omitted **

(story)** spoiler omitted **

I get that...I probably wouldn't choose to roll a gay character unless I was challenged to. Also, I wouldn't be uncomfortable (assuming no detailed sexual encounters came up in the game...those make me uncomfortable regardless of sexual preference).


IceniQueen wrote:


(Trust me I know as I have a ton of friends in the GLBTI community)

I have to ask... what does that 'I' stand for. Everytime I see the label for the community it is like someone spilled alphabet soup all over it. isn't easier to just say the gay community? I am being honest here, so there is no snark intended.

I thought I new a bit about the community because of my sister in law. Clearly I do not.

I found out what a bear was the other day. My nickname is 'the wookiee' and someone kept calling me a bear. I didn't think anything of it. Then someone asked me if I was a bear or a *bear*. I said "I have long hair and a beard, and I am stocky. That does not make me a real bear." They said something to the order of "no but are you a *bear*?"

I said NO, because I do not hybernate for the winter. (annoyed because I thought the person kept insisting I was a mammal that hybernates).

Than my wife explained to me what the person meant by *bear*, and that basically if I was gay that is what I would be. Turns out the person was my sister in law's female straight friend. Now they all call me a bear. Sigh.

So yeah that is why I think Harsk is a bear. Just a little one.

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