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Just got off the Paizo Chat a bit ago, and one of the things that had come up was the possibility of a Numeria-centric Adventure Path. A lot of folks were interested in the idea, but James was worried that the powers-that-be might not be so inclined to green-light such a sci-fi/fantasy crossbreed, especially for a whole AP.
I, however, beg to differ. :P
So I thought I'd start this thread as a sort of petition to garner some support for a future Numeria AP. Fans of metal men, laser guns, tech-wielding savages, and crashed spaceships unite! Anyone else interested?
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I think it's a sort of cosmic worm oroborous when the very PTB that James is afraid would be gunshy to greenlight a Numeria Adventure Path is the very same person who invented Numeria, and who is largely responsible for the science fantasy undercurrent in Golarion.
It's also funny in that he is absolutely right.
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Creative Director
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The thing with a Numeria AP is that it'd turn off a lot of players, I fear... which is a damn shame. Worse, though, is my fear that even if we do 10 "classic" fantasy APs and then on 11 we do a Numeria with promises to return to the classic model with number 12 that there'll be a mass freak out and subscription bailout and scorched earth. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But nevertheless... it's gonna be a long while before we get to Numeria in Pathfinder Adventure Path.
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I thought a Leming would surely jump off that cliff...
My jumping days are long past.
Seriously, do you seriously think such an AP would sell? Think of all the people that cringed at S3. I liked Expedition to the Barrier Peaks but many people didn't. Maybe it would be wise to test the gonzo waters with something a bit less ambitious than an AP to start.
Sam
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The thing with a Numeria AP is that it'd turn off a lot of players, I fear... which is a damn shame. Worse, though, is my fear that even if we do 10 "classic" fantasy APs and then on 11 we do a Numeria with promises to return to the classic model with number 12 that there'll be a mass freak out and subscription bailout and scorched earth. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But nevertheless... it's gonna be a long while before we get to Numeria in Pathfinder Adventure Path.
I can see where you are coming from...
How about a mini AP that is a series of modules aka Last Tower and Chimera Cove? To test the waters....
The thing with a Numeria AP is that it'd turn off a lot of players, I fear... which is a damn shame. Worse, though, is my fear that even if we do 10 "classic" fantasy APs and then on 11 we do a Numeria with promises to return to the classic model with number 12 that there'll be a mass freak out and subscription bailout and scorched earth. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But nevertheless... it's gonna be a long while before we get to Numeria in Pathfinder Adventure Path.
I understand the concerns, however, add me to the list of voices that are saying: "Numeria AP = cool!"
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The thing with a Numeria AP is that it'd turn off a lot of players, I fear... which is a damn shame. Worse, though, is my fear that even if we do 10 "classic" fantasy APs and then on 11 we do a Numeria with promises to return to the classic model with number 12 that there'll be a mass freak out and subscription bailout and scorched earth. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But nevertheless... it's gonna be a long while before we get to Numeria in Pathfinder Adventure Path.
I'm sorry to say that I think your fears are partially justified. My group has already had the scifi mixed with fantasy argument. Unless wrapped up in a comic book superhero game shell half of them wouldn't go for it. I don't think you'd have scorched earth, but I'd believe you'd have a some cancels until the next AP.
I probably wouldn't cancel because of a Numeria AP. I'd be able to mine it for details. Actually run it? Wouldn't fly with my current group.
Sorry to be so negative, but that's the way I see it.
Sam
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Just got off the Paizo Chat a bit ago, and one of the things that had come up was the possibility of a Numeria-centric Adventure Path. A lot of folks were interested in the idea, but James was worried that the powers-that-be might not be so inclined to green-light such a sci-fi/fantasy crossbreed, especially for a whole AP.
I, however, beg to differ. :P
So I thought I'd start this thread as a sort of petition to garner some support for a future Numeria AP. Fans of metal men, laser guns, tech-wielding savages, and crashed spaceships unite! Anyone else interested?
SEMPER ZAP
"Is we is or is we aint gonna do this?" Huurk the Kobold hoisted the Magic Tube of Distant Destruction on his shoulder and climed the bank toward the Village.
"No sure No sure, risky business this." Cleaver the kobold stood up out of the mud with his wand of loud thunder.
"What risky?" Huurk tripped on a twig and the Magic tube burst to life. The Beam of light that projected from it blew away the newly erected castle that overlooked Thistletop.
"Errf! In all sorts a trouble now."
DM Briefing: Kobolds stumble across Strange and advanced Technology. They proceed to destroy a few castles.
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I'd not be interested, and without knowing any of the numbers involved I'd be very suprised if it would be anywhere near viable for Paizo to publish such.
Barrier Peaks was cute and original, but Fantasy-SF fusion is easy to do badly, and hard to do well. It's far too subjective, far more so than just fantasy or SF on their own, and however it was balanced a lot of people simply wouldn't be interested.
APs are big, six-month, hundred dollar commitments; and a niche AP is very easy to exclude from your home campaign -- some GMs may not be particularly interested in running, say, an underdark or aquatic campaign but they may still buy an underdark/aquatic AP to mine for ideas. A lot of people just wouldn't find anything of significant interest/use in a Numerian AP.
Numeria's there if people want to use it, and I'm sure it'll be referenced in plenty of places, get a Companion, or be the setting of a few individual modules. but a full AP? I'd say no -- it shouldn't be as big a part of the Pathfinder setting as an AP would make it.
It would probably be a bit like making a psionics-focused AP, only even less popular -- too many people would simply not buy a six-issue block of Pathfinder.
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The thing with a Numeria AP is that it'd turn off a lot of players, I fear... which is a damn shame. Worse, though, is my fear that even if we do 10 "classic" fantasy APs and then on 11 we do a Numeria with promises to return to the classic model with number 12 that there'll be a mass freak out and subscription bailout and scorched earth. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But nevertheless... it's gonna be a long while before we get to Numeria in Pathfinder Adventure Path.
One way to alleviate this problem is to set the overall path somewhere else ut have one of the adventures take place in Numeria. Perhaps the overall path involves the worldscar (which has it's own baggage I know) and then have an adventure set in Numeria where the PCs have to pick up a part or piece of information, or something vital to the over all story. Then guys like me could get their swords and blasters fix, while those who don't like such things would just have to suck it up for one adventure rather than a whole AP.
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The thing with a Numeria AP is that it'd turn off a lot of players, I fear... which is a damn shame. Worse, though, is my fear that even if we do 10 "classic" fantasy APs and then on 11 we do a Numeria with promises to return to the classic model with number 12 that there'll be a mass freak out and subscription bailout and scorched earth. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But nevertheless... it's gonna be a long while before we get to Numeria in Pathfinder Adventure Path.
I understand the concerns. However, some time ago, it was mentioned that super-adventures (128+ pages long) were being considered.
A Numeria (or Linnorm Kings, or Ustalav) big module/mini-campaign would be an excellent way to test actual market response, at the same time providing fans of the sci-fi+fantasy (or viking, or gothic horror) themed setting a good shot at it.
One of the things that really bugs me about all D&D settings and stuff is that they never publicly change. There will never be a Dragon (online, of course)where they do a Demonimicon of Iggwilv where they talk about how [insert demon name here] has overthrown Demogorgon. In KQ, they won't do an article about how Titivillus has overthrown his old master (at least in the normal format of Princes of Hell, not an adventure). Likewise, Paizo won't do another Golarion thing where technology is advancing. It'll either be as an adventure format or not at all. The world will not change in a public sort of way.
Anyways, Golarion advancing so fast would be unrealistic. It would have to change slowly, with the adventurers meeting a man who is experimenting with gunpowder, bringing guns to Golarion (or are they already there? I forget). Then, the guns would begin improving, and then perhaps a mage would accidentally stumble across the way to make laser-shooting things.
But it could not happen all at once.
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The thing with a Numeria AP is that it'd turn off a lot of players, I fear... which is a damn shame. Worse, though, is my fear that even if we do 10 "classic" fantasy APs and then on 11 we do a Numeria with promises to return to the classic model with number 12 that there'll be a mass freak out and subscription bailout and scorched earth. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But nevertheless... it's gonna be a long while before we get to Numeria in Pathfinder Adventure Path.I understand the concerns. However, some time ago, it was mentioned that super-adventures (128+ pages long) were being considered.
A Numeria (or Linnorm Kings, or Ustalav) big module/mini-campaign would be an excellent way to test actual market response, at the same time providing fans of the sci-fi+fantasy (or viking, or gothic horror) themed setting a good shot at it.
Yeah, if they started doing mega-adventures, that'd probably be a good fit for a Numeria product. I know James was worried that a mere 32-page one-shot adventure couldn't possibly get all the stuff in Numeria covered, which I agree with totally. I also know that not every Paizo fan is a wonky fantasy/sci-fi "you got your peanut butter in my pizza... and I like it" fan like me. Heck, it's probably a pretty small percentage of the total populace.
But as a fan of the "different from the norm" countries in Golarion (Numeria, Ustalav, Linnorm Kings, Alkenstar, Irrisen, etc.), 128-page mega-adventures would be a great way to cover the setting properly (like with a "Backdrop" article in the back, or an additional supplement akin to Absalom or Korvosa), let people run a long adventure set in that part of Golarion or rob ideas from it, and not mess with the storyline too much at all.
If that's a product line they were considering anyway, I think it'd be a great way to "test the waters".
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One of the things that really bugs me about all D&D settings and stuff is that they never publicly change. There will never be a Dragon (online, of course)where they do a Demonimicon of Iggwilv where they talk about how [insert demon name here] has overthrown Demogorgon. In KQ, they won't do an article about how Titivillus has overthrown his old master (at least in the normal format of Princes of Hell, not an adventure). Likewise, Paizo won't do another Golarion thing where technology is advancing. It'll either be as an adventure format or not at all. The world will not change in a public sort of way.
Anyways, Golarion advancing so fast would be unrealistic. It would have to change slowly, with the adventurers meeting a man who is experimenting with gunpowder, bringing guns to Golarion (or are they already there? I forget). Then, the guns would begin improving, and then perhaps a mage would accidentally stumble across the way to make laser-shooting things.
But it could not happen all at once.
Yup, guns are in (in Alkenstar, specifically, and if James has his way, Geb and Nex will build a giant set of walls keeping those guns out of the rest of Golarion, creating lucrative smuggling operations for "MOAR GUNZ" nuts like me).
The "weird sci-fi" is what Numeria's all about, though (Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, pg. 114-115). The capitol is a giant crashed spaceship, the nobles get wasted off of the wierd goop that leaks out of it, strange metal-men do the savage nobility's bidding, and it appears even laser pistols and such can be found (for the right price, of course). IIRC, Numeria's had all this stuff for a few centuries, and it hasn't messed with the rest of Golarion yet. 'Course, I don't think the Numerians want to give their limited tech away to outsiders; it's about the only thing keeping them in power, after all.
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Is this thread actually off topic?
Sam
Eh, I just put it in "Off-Topic" to be safe. It's not a real product (yet), so "Product Discussions" might be misleading, and I can't think of another place to put it. I'll leave it to the PostMonster to relocate it if he thinks it makes more sense elsewhere.
But believe me, I did debate a bit about where to put it. :D
I think the only real response I can have to this is "Blarrrgh!"
I've been waiting for a Numerian module or adventure path ever since I got the Campaign Setting book.
I am now a sad critter. ;.;
EDIT: Please ignore the cheerfully goofy smile of my avatar. I'm really crying on the inside.
Well this thread dates from nearly a year back, there is a good chance that a Numeria AP might have become more likey better since then.
A Numeria AP? Count me in!
(Late, I know..)
-Havard
I'd certainly enjoy it, and wouldn't even think of cancelling my subscription because of it. (Might be in the minority I know).
And if not an entire AP (or a "stop off" in Numeria for one part of an AP) then I'd say a module or a two-parter (or trilogy a la "Price of Immortality").
Dean
I would love to see it. An if that Mega-adventure idea ever came back, I'd certainly buy a Numarian adventure.
(soooooo sweet).
You're killing me with the thread necros, Håvard! *shakes fist* :)
Personally, I also like the idea of a two-part module rather than a full AP investment to see what / how the fan / consumer demographics respond to this with their comments / dollars.
Sorry about the necros. I will be nice from now on :)
I just picked up the Inner Sea Guide and absolutely fell in love with Numeria. A Numeria AP would be awesome, but I think an AP which touches on Numerian elements while the main focus is on another area would be a good compromise :)
-Havard
Book 4.5 of Kingmaker: When The Technic League Attacks.
Sorry about the necros. I will be nice from now on :)
I just picked up the Inner Sea Guide and absolutely fell in love with Numeria. A Numeria AP would be awesome, but I think an AP which touches on Numerian elements while the main focus is on another area would be a good compromise :)
-Havard
I'm not saying I disagree. What seems to be the (sad) consensus is that the stuff I really enjoy - such as Numeria and the Mana Wastes (a/k/a Alkenstar) are the least likely recipients to get the full extent of Paizo publishing love.
Damn the masses! They don't know what's good for them!
:)
I really want some Numina adventures because I don't care much for the place and want to see something Paizo-tastic done with it to show me what I'm missing.
My big fear, though, is that it might confirm why I don't like it. Clearly that's the gamble James and crew aren't willing to take.
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From what I read on people's reactions to Numeria, it seems like they envision it as a place where there are high rise buildings, teleporters, hovercraft and ever-present Gestapo-like robots with laser canons.
I've always seen it as a blasted wasteland, more post-Apocalyptic in feeling than pure sci-fi. Dungeons made from pieces of the crashed ship, partially buried and seen as part of ancient civilizations, roaming bands of savage barbarians, the elite having imbibed the liquids of their nameless gods, found in the depths of some ancient wreckage of a futuristic civilization, giving them great strength and strange powers but at what cost? Where, yes, there are elements of the future, but employed by a primitive (in comparison) people who are trying to understand, and exploit, not knowing really what they do.
Starfall as a large city brimming with people, mostly poor, filled with ghettos and policed by the enigmatic Gearsmen. Gladiatorial, and pleasure pits, drug dens and markets that cater to every desire, no matter how foul, spring up everywhere in a place that I envision as resembling a horrific Middle Eastern bazaar. There would be futuristic weapons and other technology for certain, but not to the extent where you would be confused with being in something like Star Trek.
To be blunt, Numeria is damn awesome and I'm really looking forward to something, anything, be it AP or adventure, to really get a feel for the place.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Just wanted to note that if you want a Numeria AP, make sure (if you haven't already), that you mention that on APs you'd like to see in the future, since James is tracking votes there for a general sense of what is popular.
From what I read on people's reactions to Numeria, it seems like they envision it as a place where there are high rise buildings, teleporters, hovercraft and ever-present Gestapo-like robots with laser canons.
My preferred view of Numina is a Thundar-inspired land of sorcerer-like tyrants using the little-understood technology of the metal mountain to lord over the fearful-yet-rebellious Kallid barbarians.
Unfortunately, illustrations showing giant robot scorpions and talk of police robots/gearsmen make me think it's a bit more sci-fi for sci-fi sake rather than sci-fi seen through the eyes of fantasy.
....a cool description of Numeria.
I agree with most of your post-Apocalyptic description, especially your description of Starfall.
However, I envision the sci-fi/high-tech aspects of Numeria to be even rarer. I mean the Silver Mount/Rain of Stars may have been huge, but how much technology could it really have spread over the region? Probably enough for the rulers of Numeria to have the occasional cool weapon and gadget, but I don't think you'd have ray guns and shield generators buried all over the place. The Gearsmen would probably be the most fantastic sci-fi-ish thing most PCs would encounter, and I lean towards making them very rare as well. Maybe no more than a few dozen of them patrol Starfall.
But that's just my two coppers.
....a cool description of Numeria.I agree with most of your post-Apocalyptic description, especially your description of Starfall.
However, I envision the sci-fi/high-tech aspects of Numeria to be even rarer. I mean the Silver Mount/Rain of Stars may have been huge, but how much technology could it really have spread over the region? Probably enough for the rulers of Numeria to have the occasional cool weapon and gadget, but I don't think you'd have ray guns and shield generators buried all over the place. The Gearsmen would probably be the most fantastic sci-fi-ish thing most PCs would encounter, and I lean towards making them very rare as well. Maybe no more than a few dozen of them patrol Starfall.
But that's just my two coppers.
And that's why I think it'd be awesome to combine that barbarian tribe thing with Numeria. Barbarians rule the land, since the Black Sovereign's reach is limited. Maybe tribal warfare is interrupted by the black sovereign finally trying to impose his will, with hordes of gearmen. Well, rather the Technic League.
It's unfortunate that purists tend to... get very passionate about how much hate they have for polluting "their" fantasy with any other genre. Is it really the majority or the more vocal minority? Perhaps we, who enjoy a little somethin' somethin' with our fantasy, should become a bit more passionate ourselves about it to encourage the Powers-That-Be to fund and develop what we wish to see in this regard.
I, for one, would love, love, LOVE to even see an adventure based in Numeria. An AP would be very cool, but just an adventure. Like a dungeon romp or an urban intrigue... or both!
I'd be happy just to see a single Pathfinder length one-shot adventure/module for Numeria, myself. I could definitely see how a whole AP would turn people off, but a single module would allow those of us sci-fantasy nuts to enjoy ourselves, and those not so inclined could continue to get their regular fantasy fix.
Come to think of it, with Distant Worlds coming up soon, that would be a great way to do some kind of Numeria tie-in. That spaceship had to come from somewhere, after all.
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Creative Director
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I'd be happy just to see a single Pathfinder length one-shot adventure/module for Numeria, myself. I could definitely see how a whole AP would turn people off, but a single module would allow those of us sci-fantasy nuts to enjoy ourselves, and those not so inclined could continue to get their regular fantasy fix.
Come to think of it, with Distant Worlds coming up soon, that would be a great way to do some kind of Numeria tie-in. That spaceship had to come from somewhere, after all.
True... but Distant Worlds really focuses on Golarion's Solar System, and the spaceship in Numeria came from a long way beyond Golarion's system. There's certainly SOME stuff that we'd use in Distant Worlds for a Numeria AP, but not as much as one might initially suspect.
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Did the spaceship come from a galaxy far, far away?