dumptruckman's page

I like the idea of enemies being unwilling by default if they don't know what spell is being cast. However, an intelligent enemy would easily recognize that the spell just cast healed the party and if they see the same spell cast again (which should be obvious based on the auditory/visual aspects of the spell) they would probably be willing the next time it is cast whether or not they identify the exact spell.

Sure, as long as your warning is only a few seconds long. :)

Of course! Anything else would be outside of the bounds of speaking as a free action.

I just want to reiterate something that ought to be very telling.

James Jacobs, the Creative Director for Paizo, says:

LoreKeeper wrote:

Dear James Jacobs:

True or false? Monks of the empty hand take a -4 penalty to attacks when wielding improvised weapons.

The monk of the empty hand treats improvised weapons as if she were proficient in them, and can wield normal weapons as improvised weapons. This effectively has the same end effect as the Catch Off-Guard feat, but isn't a feat and thus doesn't use up a feat slot since it's a variant class ability. Thus, they do not take a nonproficient penalty when using improvised weapons. The text is not as clear as it could have been, I guess, but hopefully common sense can step in to bolster that if someone doesn't read this post?

(We COULD have simply said, "The monk of the empty hand gains "Catch Off-Guard" as a bonus feat, I guess, but that would have lost the flavor bit about how they often wield normal weapons as improvised weapons.)

Basically, it looks like he is saying that, hey, they screwed up the wording here, and that the Monk of the Empty Hand is proficient with improvised weapons and that Catch Off-Guard does the same thing. This seems pretty clear to me that Catch Off-Guard grants proficiency with improvised weapons.

The problem is that James Jacobs is not the final authority for rules questions which is why I didn't just take that as fact. Though based on how he worded it (basically "we screwed up"), it sounds like he's pretty confident of his answer.

I have only really asked this here, hoping to get an official response, due to the many voices who don't agree, who would end up telling me my character is not legal for play (in PFS.)

dumptruckman wrote:

RAW, the only thing that grants weapon proficiency (with any weapon) are Race and Class features.

I think some archetypes grant some weapon proficiencies as well.

Indeed, the archetype changes the class features, so this is a class feature, I would say.

dumptruckman wrote:

There is not a feat that grants "proficiency" of any kind.

There are. Martial Weapon Proficiency. Exotic Weapon Proficiency. What there is not is a feat that grants improvised weapon proficiency.

My point, is that no where in those feats, does it explicitly say that "you are proficient". The feats simply remove the penalty for non-proficiency, which is the same thing that Catch Off-Guard does. I had detailed this rather thoroughly in the OP, I thought.

Rules wrote:

any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it

Rather hard to argue intent when this specifically states that you're considered to be non-proficient.

Under Weapons you'll find:

Most character classes are proficient with all simple weapons. Combat-oriented classes such as barbarians, cavaliers, and fighters are proficient with all simple and all martial weapons. Characters of other classes are proficient with an assortment of simple weapons and possibly some martial or even exotic weapons. All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons they gain from their race. A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon.

This basically implies that you are non-proficient with everything unless you are explicitly proficient with it. So, improvised weapons reminds you that you are non-proficient which means -4 to hit and again Catch Off-Guard removes this -4 penalty.

I'll restate that the root of this issue seems to lie in the fact that Weapon Proficiency is not well defined, which is why I believe there should be clarification.

Is it possible to become proficient with improvised weapons (through means such as the feat Catch Off-Guard or Monk of the Empty Hand archetype)? If so, is it then possible to take Weapon Focus (and other feats which require weapon proficiency) with an improvised weapon?

This is apparently quite a controversial topic and could really use some clarification. The rules do not make it clear what "weapon proficiency" even is which I think is the root of the problem.

Looking at Simple Weapon Proficiency we see:

You are trained in the use of basic weapons.

Benefit: You make attack rolls with simple weapons without penalty.

Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.

Special: All characters except for druids, monks, and wizards are automatically proficient with all simple weapons. They need not select this feat.

And Martial Weapon Proficiency we see:

Choose a type of martial weapon. You understand how to use that type of martial weapon in combat.

Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty).

Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.

Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.

You can gain Martial Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Now, neither of these say "you are proficient", they simply say you can attack without the -4 penalty.

Then we look at Catch Off-Guard:

Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.

Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.

Catch Off-Guard does the exact same thing as the proficiency feats by simply removing the penalty from attacking with improvised weapons. You may even relate that -4 penalty to being a non-proficiency penalty when you look at this taken from the rules for Improvised weapons:

Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.

To me, it seems like Catch Off-Guard essentially negates that line, which would mean they are no longer non-proficient and thus they are, instead, proficient.

On top of all this, James Jacobs says this on the matter:

The monk of the empty hand treats improvised weapons as if she were proficient in them, and can wield normal weapons as improvised weapons. This effectively has the same end effect as the Catch Off-Guard feat, but isn't a feat and thus doesn't use up a feat slot since it's a variant class ability. Thus, they do not take a nonproficient penalty when using improvised weapons. The text is not as clear as it could have been, I guess, but hopefully common sense can step in to bolster that if someone doesn't read this post?

(We COULD have simply said, "The monk of the empty hand gains "Catch Off-Guard" as a bonus feat, I guess, but that would have lost the flavor bit about how they often wield normal weapons as improvised weapons.)

Basically, it appears that to be considered proficient with a weapon, you must not incur the -4 penalty with it. Based on this information, it would seem like Catch Off-Guard does grant proficiency with improvised weapons. Unfortunately, there are a great number of folks (at least one 5 star GM included) that disagree.

If it is ruled that you can be proficient with improvised weapons, then you should be able to take Weapon Focus with them (for one improvised weapon per feat, of course), but it seems necessary, given the history, to go ahead and clarify that question also.

Thank you for your time.

(Posting this here so it can be FAQ'd)

Is it possible to become proficient with improvised weapons (through means such as the feat Catch Off-Guard or Monk of the Empty Hand archetype)? If so, is it then possible to take Weapon Focus with an improvised weapon?

This is apparently quite a controversial topic and could really use some clarification. The rules do not make it clear what "weapon proficiency" even is which I think is the root of the problem.

Looking at Simple Weapon Proficiency we see:

You are trained in the use of basic weapons.

Benefit: You make attack rolls with simple weapons without penalty.

Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.

Special: All characters except for druids, monks, and wizards are automatically proficient with all simple weapons. They need not select this feat.

And Martial Weapon Proficiency we see:

Choose a type of martial weapon. You understand how to use that type of martial weapon in combat.

Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty).

Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.

Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.

You can gain Martial Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Now, neither of these say "you are proficient", they simply say you can attack without the -4 penalty.

Then we look at Catch Off-Guard:

Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.

Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.

Catch Off-Guard does the exact same thing as the proficiency feats by simply removing the penalty from attacking with improvised weapons. You may even relate that -4 penalty to being a non-proficiency penalty when you look at this taken from the rules for Improvised weapons:

Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.

To me, it seems like Catch Off-Guard essentially negates that line, which would mean they are no longer non-proficient and thus they are, instead, proficient.

On top of all this, you have James Jacobs stating that, essentially, the Monk of the Empty Hand is proficient with improvised weapons, and that they could have simply given it Catch Off-Guard to reflect this.

In my opinion, based on the given information, it would seem like Catch Off-Guard does grant proficiency with improvised weapons. Unfortunately, there are a great number of folks (at least one 5 star GM included) that disagree.

If it is ruled that you can be proficient with improvised weapons, then you should be able to take Weapon Focus with them (individually, of course), but it seems necessary, given the history, to go ahead and clarify that question also.

Thank you for your time.