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So where it says “additional races are available if you own the appropriate book” that doesn’t apply?

In this one we only had a round to prepare and I’m pretty sure they knew we were coming. There was some dialogue before the fight. (Them offering us to join the cult, and then a challenge of duel - we declined both offers) they also had pretty amazing saves. Also keep in mind we were a party of 3 8th lvl vestalts and a 6th lvl single class cohort against 4 lvl 11+ bosses. We had managed to defeat (and force to flee) 3 of them when it was just them, but combined it was too much.

I have run many games and there is always a few fights that the party needs to run from. I find that if every encounter is easy and no threat it removes the challenge. Much like the fast and furious franchise. If there is no chance of someone dying then it just gets ridiculous and ends up jumping the sub. I think this was one of those times when we ended up in a fight against foes too powerful for us and we needed to run. Which we did. Everything worked out well. We did lose a party member but otherwise we learned much and my character is much less over confident and ballsy and more pragmatic and careful. And we have the fun memory of the glittering acid pit disco orgy with a bunch of cultists to remind us forever of the encounter.

Yea in hindsight I could have used enveneration or maybe try to isolate. I’ve had a lot of success with blindness/deafness as a single target debuff - it’s won more then a few fights. Figured the wall would be just as good to take out multiple foes. Live and learn.

We did manage to mostly get away - I always keep a dimension door handy just for that purpose, and a resilient sphere as a last ditch emergency. I think in future I’ll prepare more enveneration to use on tougher targets. It’s an amazing alpha strike that can almost win a fight on its own. And black tentacles vrs monks .... yea. Not smartest move. Should have realized monks have a great cmd.

Any other suggestions?

Ok some clarifying stuff.

(Great ideas so far)

Our party is 3 PC and my cohort.
We are gestalt because of low PC count.
I’m a wizard/cleric focused on battlefield control, some summons and buff/debuff. The wall in question was blindness/deafness. (It’s basically a wall that makes you blind or deaf when passing through it. A wonderful spell) also I apologize. Using my phone and auto correct is a mean mistress. The rest of our party is my lvl 6 fighter cohort, who basically just watches my back, Carries and uses a few wands if needed and otherwise guards me. The other PCs are a dwarf Paladin fighter, has a good shield and Adamantine fullplate. Very slow, but can park and tank like a bawz. Then a sorc/rogue.

The battle in question was the (I think) final fight for the destroyer cult prefab. It’s the one with the cult HQ in this cave, one of the rooms is a training room with poles coming out of this pit.

The bosses we fought most of them earlier and they fled. So we handled them ok when it was just one. This one was after the leader asked us to join them, we said no, she offered a duel we again said no (didn’t trust and they wouldn’t agree to surrender, only leave) so it was fight them all time. I believe there was 4 of them. The flying wizard, a bouncy monk chick and 2 others. One was a melee fighter. I got first action and put the blind wall up - it did jack. The wizard just flew over it, and the others went past it like it wasn’t there. We then got smoked for a ton of damage. I nearly got KO first round, and my cohort took about 40%. Rest of the group didn’t do anything either. Round 2 I tried black tentacles to deal with the grounded ones (they had crazy high cmd and just walked away) I healed a bit but got nailed for more damage. Again rest of group couldn’t do much. At this point it was the 4 of us vrs 4 of them and we were doing jack and squat. So the rogue/sorc ran in full retreat mode - I grabbed my cohort and dimension door out, unfortunately the Paladin was left behind.

Now that is just for context and background. Ive no interest in the actual scenario, and don’t want the book or anything. This is purely a tactical based discussion.

I did have enveneration prepped - but given that they probally would have killed us immediately after using - I think we GTFO’d pretty much at he last minute. Maybe could have led with it... (or done the duel) but yea. Anyway hope that clears up some stuff.

Everything is available. We are using gestalt characters (which is why the boss fight is cr +3 )

Keep in mind: enemy wizard has fly ability or flight cast before the fight, has access to scorching ray, disintegrate.

The monk has ranged weapons and close in monk weapons. They all have rather good saves and brushed off dc19 will and reflex saves without an issue. They also have a fairly strong AC in the mid to high 20s

Our last session our group got it’s butt straight up kicked. It was boss level encounter we were 8th lvl gestalt up against 11th lvl or higher bosses. We couldn’t do a thing. My wizard tried a few things to even the fight - wall of blindness / deafness and black tentacles. The enemy pretty much laughed at both, and neither spell had any effect. In return they pummeled is win damage from ranged spells and melee combat. Even our high AC Paladin got overwhelmed. So without getting too much into the “meta game” aspect how does a wizard or cleric or Paladin deal with enemies a few lvls up on them? Obviously a cr+3 is a challenging encounter. And it’s gonnna be tough. But how would you do it?

Say the following bad guys are working together in the same fight. You are lvl 8 anything.

Lvl 11 “god wizard”
Lvl 11 monk
Lvl 11 rogue

As an aside include in separate combats:(each on its own)
Lvl 11 pally
Lvl 11 barbarian
Lvl 11 fighter (melee)
Lvl 11 fighter (ranged)
Lvl 11 Druid

Thanks!

Has anyone else had an encounter that should have been normal but due to weird craziness go a total other direction? Would enjoy hearing about it

So my group was playing a game earlier today. Our group is small so we run gestalt. The party is:

Me: a cleric/synthesist. A quirky roleplay i developed was that the main caster has no control over the eidolon when it’s summoned, and the two have independent personalities that don’t have memories of the others actions. Sort of a hulk/banner or jekyl/Hyde thing. The catch: if the main guy takes damage and fails his save, he involuntary summons the eidolon portion (the normal ritual). - fun but a quirk I didn’t really think out properly and had plans to change characters. (This had caused issues in previous sessions)

A dawrf Paladin fighter. Tanked up in fullplate and pretty much immovable object.

A sorcerer rogue

So we enter this dungeon cave thing trying to track down an evil cult. We get past the first few encounters pretty easy. The next room is a larger one, and we get attacked by 8 cultists. They get the drop on us, and congregate in a nice bunch right in front of us, blocking the door into the room essentially. My turn comes up and I decide to try some battlefield control. Even the odds and maybe make things easier for the pally and rogue. So, I cast acid pit. Right under the cultists. However a small problem.

The dwarf is on the “slopes edge”. In my haste to get as many of the cultists as I could I didn’t see the dwarf was at risk, and didn’t realize he had crap for reflex. (Which he promptly failed)

No problem, I’m right behind the dwarf, and still have an action. DM let’s me attempt to grab the dwarf and prevent him falling.

Awsome! I make the grab ...... then we realize the dwarf, in full gear including Adamantine fullplate, is about 300 pounds total.

I’ve got a strength of 7. (Heavy load like 70pounds)

He starts pulling me in with him.

Reflex to let go..... results in a 4.

So 3 of the cultists go in, along with the dwarf, and me. 5 characters, in a 10x10ft (4 squares) hole, with 5 feet of acid at the bottom. Turns out the cultists have mink levels and don’t care about the fall, the pally just shrugs and heals himself. Me.... full damage.

Save to not summon eidolon.... failed. I’m now out of the fight, flailing about for the ritual for 6 rounds. In a pit of acid. On top of angry cultists.

Up above, the rogue decides to help and uses glitter dust to blind the remaining cultists. As a result they all end up falling into the pit with us.

(See rules for squeezing and having too many people for not enough squares, combined with underwater fighting)

So now, there is me, thrashing about like a possessed fish out of water. A dawrf totally submerged in acid, and 7 cultists who can’t do anything but squirm in the acid. All while glitter falls from above ..... this was turning into something out of s penthouse forum special.

Eventually the cultists all succumbed to the acid, the dwarf between lay on hands and his massive con easily managed the 8 rounds of acid submersion. I took a bunch of damage but the pally kept me ticking. After my “ritual” completed - and the spell ended my now very confused character climbs out of a mess of dead melted cultists, a slightly smoking dwarf, all of us covered in glitter and shame....

That was by far the “weirdest” way I have ever solved or beaten an encounter. Not a single attack roll was made by anyone, it lasted 7 rounds, and all we could do was just .... marvel in disbelief at the absurdity of it all.

And then the rogue suggested “what if I had added dancing lights to this? Then we’d have a party!”

So the medium level of the spell “create demiplane” has this:

“Elemental: Your plane gains the air-, earth-, fire-, or water-elemental dominant trait (see Elemental and Energy Traits)”

Then it links to the actual traits;

(For earth trait)
“Earth-Dominant: Planes with this trait are mostly solid. Travelers who arrive run the risk of suffocation if they don't reach a cavern or other pocket within the earth. Worse yet, individuals without the ability to burrow are entombed in the earth and must dig their way out (5 feet per turn). Creatures of the air subtype are uncomfortable on earth-dominant planes because these planes are tight and claustrophobic to them, but suffer no inconvenience beyond having difficulty moving”

Then if I do some reading into the actual details of the earth plane, found in the pathfinder wiki

“ This plane is composed primarily of rock and earth, criss-crossed by veins of precious metal and gemstones of such gigantic proportions that they cannot be believed by those who have never set foot there. Interspersed with this solid rock and earth are caverns of all sizes, some of them dark and dry, others filled with water and phosphorescent fungus.[2] Others yet are lit by enormous crystals, enchanted by the native shaitan genie to illuminate vast caves, like miniature suns.”

So: if the caster can choose the details of his demiplane, making it akin to the earth plane, it would seem to be logical that would include all the minerals stone and so forth, and if the caster can control shape and overall layout, he could make it mostly a cavern, (preventing the whole arriving into an area buried alive). Since nothing indicates that materials in the demiplane cease to exist upon leaving, (although the plane could disappear if not “recast”) it would make sense it could serve as a “mining base” taking advantage of the “gigantic proportions” of veins of valuable materials.

Unless I’m missing something?

So this question came up during a pfs game.

If a wizard uses create demiplane - I believe it’s the medium or larger version, they can determine some planar features, like being like the plane of fire, water etc. They can also determine shape and so on.

So;

1: can you make a demiplane that is identical to the earth plane
2: shape that so it’s a massive cavern, and the earth plane traits are “along the edges but still inside the demiplane”
3: choose the material composing the “earth” in the demiplane. So made of gold, gems, silver, etc
4: use a second casting to make a “permanent” gate in and out
5: leadership feat for followers to extract the minerals/gems from the demiplane.
6: sell the extracted minerals, or use them in construction projects on the material plane.
6b: would those materials be permenant?

Not saying this would be possible in a pfs game, the discussion pretty much went down the rabbit hole, and just turned into a “well is it possible” .... line of discussion. We couldn’t sette on an answer so I figured I’d ask here, since the last few questions I’ve presented have been answered quickly politely and with great responses. (You guys are awsome ;) )

Thanks!

Seems like the potential utility and tactical edge magic jar offers is quite offset by its risk and randomness. I like the idea of secretly popping into a room, taking over a bad guy and offing his buddies one by one until only one remains ... but given the amount of saves, randomness and lack of “intelligent direction” would appear to be placing this strictly in a no go zone. What I might do instead .... is build myself a massive golem of some kind then use object possession of some kind to grant myself a nice “cyborg body” (evil laugh)

You should you the Possession spell instead, it has more clarity. In fact, Posession is the official replacement of Magic Jar, and has better clarity about how the spell works.

The biggest issue with that is my character is a summoner and does not have access to 5th lvl spells at this time. The most I can do is 4th. So I have magic jar on the list, and available just not possession. Unless the new rules are suggesting a direct swap spell for spell. So if I can cast magic jar, regardless I can now cast possession?

Also also, possession only seems to work on one target. Once I’m “done” with that target the spell ends and I’m bounced back to original body. Magic jar lets me keep jumping. (Which presents a tactical advantage)

I was looking through the use of magic jar, and have some neat ideas for it. But I wanted to clarify some particulars.

- obviously I need the “jar” and have to cast the spell. This moves me into the jar and leaves my body dead.
- I can then try to possess a nearby living body.
- if I succeed I take control, until I choose to leave it or it dies.
- if it dies, I can then try to control another one. Rinse repeat.

What I’m wondering:

Once i cast the spell does the target I want to possess need to be within line of sight? Or just within range, say in another room of the dungeon?

Once the spell is cast, can my party take my body and place it, along with the jar inside a secure location, such as inside a rope trick, or a secure cottage, that kind of thing? Would doing so end the spell or inadvertently kill me?

Could they cast reduce person on my body and store it, along with the jar inside a bag of holding? Would that kill me or end the spell?

Thanks!

Dang.... that’s a pretty awsome side quest. I agree - move here and run a game lol.

The biggest/only issue with that is we are in the middle of a rather time sensitive quest. We don’t have the in game time to go off into the mountains. As epic as that would be. Was sort of hoping for a “quick” fix - something we could accomplish within a few hours maybe. The suggestion I came up with, sans role playing details:

1: tweak the details of a magic jar spell. Make it work in reverse. (Instead of the caster implanting his soul into the creature, the spell pulls the soul out and stores it in a container of some kind) - this would require a special perpetration of the spell with appropriate spellcraf and knowledge checks, plus the crafting of a suitable vessel (craft check, use of bless spell)
2: use a magic circle against evil on the zombie.
3: cast consecrate on the zombie and the vessel (again a spellcraft to “split” this spell)
4: destroy the vessel releasing soul to proper afterlife.

Results: a now empty dead corpse that can be buried properly, and the giants soul returned to its rightful place. This would require some resources, a few checks and a couple of mid lvl spells to work, but could maybe accomplish the goal.

We are playing this weekend so I’ll update how things went. Some great suggestions here as always. Thanks again.

Yea seems like this is gonna be a role play /dm solution... it was a storm giant, animated by an evil ghost. We killed the ghost after we took away its zombie giant gaurd. But now we have this giant to deal with. Lol. So we will investigate roleplay aspect.

Thanks!

Ok so we had a session the other night and during one of the combats our cleric used command undead to “steal” control of a zombie giant from the bad guys. We now have control of this very powerful undead and our group has decided it’s best to put it to rest. - we have a paladin in group. He didn’t object to taking control since we removed from an evil influence, but keeping it would be bad. We don’t want to fight it, or otherwise destroy it, and “setting it loose” would also be bad as then it’s basically going to go around being a giant zombie. Is there a way to “put it to rest” without fighting or destroying it?

Thanks!

I thought undead under command undead would break control intelligent or not if the controller or the controllers allies attacked it in any way. - also the undead won’t do anything it won’t normally do, although it might be convinced something is worth doing, but it won’t hurt itself or take actions that would be obviously suicidal like “jump off that cliff” - for reference the only thing on it is command undead spell.

Ok so we had a session the other night and during one of the combats our cleric used command undead to “steal” control of a zombie giant from the bad guys. We now have control of this very powerful undead and our group has decided it’s best to put it to rest. - we have a paladin in group. He didn’t object to taking control since we removed from an evil influence, but keeping it would be bad. We don’t want to fight it, or otherwise destroy it, and “setting it loose” would also be bad as then it’s basically going to go around being a giant zombie. Is there a way to “put it to rest” without fighting or destroying it?

Thanks!

Some pretty good ideas! I like the bell thing.. might have to tweak a little.

Last update: the group was attacked by a small horde of undead created By zayues.
2 skeletons (1 bloody) and 4 zombies (2 special variant) It did not go well. 2 party members died, 2 finished the fight k'o and the Druid lost his animal companion. The group is now in full retreat GTFO mode back to the nearest safe haven.
But this should bring zayues to the forefront as a threat in the area, as one of the zombies had a copy of "the tennents of zayues" and most bore the mark.

So more info:
Group is 2nd lvl but as said will advance fast.
They have already encountered some random monsters bearing the mark
3 of the group were fellow players when I used the character and are familiar with his "style"

Roughly what level is the party?

Right now they are second level, but should advance quickly.

So I'm running a campaign and have need of a minor final villain. I have decided to use an old character of mine as the bad guy. What I need is ... a few pointers on some shenanigans he can orchestrate to harass the group and establish himself. Since I'm pretty sure my group may see and read this thread I may or may not use suggestions and will only provide basic info already known to the group.

Zayues (zay-ooze) is a half orc arcanist specializing in Necromancy. (Using his class feats to gain wizard specialist school abilities) he is flamboyant, loud and quite possibly insane. He is convinced that he is a god trapped in mortal form, (he's not sure which one so he thinks it's himself) as such he often refers to himself in 3rd person. He is undertaking a mission to rebuild the temple of zayues and thus insists on telling everyone he knows to "spread the word of zayues" and usually hands them a scrap of handscribbled paper containing gibberish or whatever he thinks of at the time, which he calls "the tennents of zayues". Usually the only mainstays on such documents are "fear zayues, spread the word, and build a temple" along with whatever other random nonsense or base need he thinks of (he's Been known to include "fetch me a sammich" and "wipe the arse of zayues' steed) He's also rather fond of using his arcane mark on those he encounters. Bestowing "the mark of zayues" on them. (Usually on the forehead or face) He also does this to defeated enemies, finished wine bottles and random objects he passes. At the moment he is of low to medium level, and just come from the far north, what he believes to be one of 2 survivors of an ill fated mission to the north. He's supplanted himself into a local bandit group as a shaman, and has most of the bandits kind of freaked out. He's just recently learned how to create more kinds of undead and is enjoying his experiments. Often just creating them, giving them a command and then loosing them on the world.

So: any suggestions on encounters I can throw to the group? I have a few ideas but always value more input.

Thanks!

darthspader wrote:

Also, since it's intelligent, does that mean it gains Xp and could potentially get class levels or further advance with racial hd?

Yes and no. Yes in that it is capable of gaining class levels, but not via experience points. Only player characters gain XP and level up in that fashion. Other creatures gain class levels solely through the discretion of the game master.

dartspader wrote:

Ie: it's created, command undead cast. It fails save, caster level is say 10 (so 10 day duration) but it gains enough xp to advance on day 6, and the advance improves its saves. Does it get to make a fresh one to "break free" or does it wait untill the 10 day mark?

Leveling up does not give you a saving throw against ongoing effects. There are some effects that can force a second save against ongoing effects, but leveling up isn't one of them.

I think that takes care of all my questions. Thanks a bunch for the quick and helpful responses! :)

Also methinks my party's lawful good cleric of (sun/heal god? ... I forget name...) is NOT gonna be happy with me >:) .... insert evi... I mean... nuetrel/nuetrel laugh.... heh heh. (Nice thing about nuetrel... no smite/protection from shenanigans)

Generally, mindless status is denoted by having an int score of "-"

So a void zombie, with an int of 7 is classed as intelligent undead (even if it's not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer).

Ok makes sense. But where is that explained? (Drives me nuts when I can't find book or PRD reference)

Also, since it's intelligent, does that mean it gains Xp and could potentially get class levels or further advance with racial hd? How would such xp be calculated? Like a cohort? If it does advance, and it's save improves does it get an immediate recheck on a previous failed save?

Ie: it's created, command undead cast. It fails save, caster level is say 10 (so 10 day duration) but it gains enough xp to advance on day 6, and the advance improves its saves. Does it get to make a fresh one to "break free" or does it wait untill the 10 day mark?

Re (5), where are you getting that it's mindless? Looks Int 7 to me.

Because it's a zombie?

That said I have no idea. I looked everywhere and all I can find are the basic undead rules. Nothing that actually indicates what exactly defines or differentiates between mindless and not. Is it simply the presence of an int score? Where do the rules for this exist? Maybe I'm missing something obvious. I dunno. The only reference that I found was referring to "mindless undead get no skills/feats but do get toughness etc"

All my searchs just bring up results pertaining to actually creating and using intelligent undead, for weird reasons.

Edit for auto correct

Thanks!

One question I forgot. Let's say I use a 1hd human corpse. Implant the voidstick and it creates the voidzombie using its statblock. Does it count as a 1hd creature or the 15hd creature from the statblock for purpose of control limits?

I'm assuming once created it's a 15hd creature so would need to be able to fit in a "pool" that has 15hd of creatures available. So a lower level character would need a command undead spell to essentially gain control over it

So procedure would be:
1: Distract paladin
2: locate a 1hd corpse (or willing donar)
3: perform ritual. (I'm assuming this would work inside a rope trick if needed)
4: create void zombie
5: immediatly cast command undead spell. It's a mindless one, so no save.
6: profit!

Ok so I'm looking at a necromancer character - and came across the void stick. I have a few questions.

1: it says to use it a ritual is required time taken and one stick per hd. My question: if I animate a 1hd human with 1 voidstick, does it create the voidstick zombie at it's given stats? Or is there a template (like bloody skeleton) that gets applied to the base creature?

2: are the voidsticks one use items? Or can I plant it - benefit from the effect, pull it up, then reuse as I need to? (Providing it's not implanted into a zombie)

3: if a voidstick zombie is made - it has an aura that creates a desecrate effect, so I assume that further "normal" animates cast in this aura benefit from desecrate?

Thanks!

What books in particular have these spells? I have most of the books, but don't see the spells mentioned.

so im guessing extracts are one potion, such as beastform, and the mtagen is a second one? IE: if i want to get my str boost, i take the mutagen, then i can take the beastform next turn to get fly/dark vision/climb or whatever? or is it an all in one shot?

so heres a question: i saw in another thread someplace that a guy was using an alchemist with various mixes to get essentially what im trying to do, one of the things he mentiones, is at 8th lvl he can use beast form 1 as part of his mutagen. how exactly? i cant find how that works. also, when using beast form he mentions he can just pick the abilities he wants, but again i dont know how this works, since i read it like you pick an animal, and adopt the traits like the animal. clarification would be nice on how that works.

hey guys i have a question.

first off i realize the DM rules is generally law and they can house rule what they want.

my current DM has stated "core rules" nothing tweaked, stick to the rules of the book/s. with that in mind, he is allowing a synthisist.

where we get into a differing of opinion is weather or not i can make use of monster feats. in particular, the improved natural attack, and multi attack feats. the requirements are "natural weapons" plus the BAB of +4 on imp attack.

the DMs argument is that the base guy, my "dude" dosent have a natural attack, and therefore cant take the feats. my argument, on the other hand is when he is wearing the eidolon he DOES have natural attacks, and since normally the eidolon WOULD qualify for those if it was not a worn or bonded creature, why is it diffirent?

what im looking for here is something in the rules that supports either stance, aside from the "DM is god, may house rule, etc" - once i present this if the stance is unchanged, then so be it - ive no intent of pushing matters. i just like to have facts and research done before making a case like this.

hey guys i have a question.

first off i realize the DM rules is generally law and they can house rule what they want.

my current DM has stated "core rules" nothing tweaked, stick to the rules of the book/s. with that in mind, he is allowing a synthisist.

where we get into a differing of opinion is weather or not i can make use of monster feats. in particular, the improved natural attack, and multi attack feats. the requirements are "natural weapons" plus the BAB of +4 on imp attack.

the DMs argument is that the base guy, my "dude" dosent have a natural attack, and therefore cant take the feats. my argument, on the other hand is when he is wearing the eidolon he DOES have natural attacks, and since normally the eidolon WOULD qualify for those if it was not a worn or bonded creature, why is it diffirent?

what im looking for here is something in the rules that supports either stance, aside from the "DM is god, may house rule, etc" - once i present this if the stance is unchanged, then so be it - ive no intent of pushing matters. i just like to have facts and research done before making a case like this.