Zooman's page

Westcrown is a fine large cosmopolitan setting in pathfinder. As the third largest city in the inner sea region (Not counting the undead of Yled)I'm surprised more doesn't happen there. Given that a third of the city is barely inhabited anymore it is probably the second largest in size.

(Spoilers ahead!! Beware!) If I knew how to hide text and stuff I probably would here .. but I son't so ...

Depending on when your game takes place is whether you have to worry about the night attacks. Many of the details of what is attacking are in the first module.

However the point of the Council of Thieves AP is .... Dun Dun Duuuu!!!

To save the city from the horrors of those attacks. And if it succeeds they won't occur any more. There is also a lot of residual damage and a change in the cities leadership.

The final Module 'The Twice-Damned Prince' Has the players running around the city a lot, so there are some good locations and city information there.

Anyone know who did the copper dragon perched on a rock on page 31? I looked in the art profiles of all the credited artists and couldn't find it. I'd like to use this image without all the text to show my players.

Thanks.

Yes there are reasons that it might be difficult. And I could refute each of the 'you'r wrongs' but I'm more looking to run a fantasy champaign that has epic adventure.

Why didn't the humans just bomb the Navi from space or move their drilling operation more than 500km? cause that would have made a lame movie.

I'm kinda fishing for hints as to what might be fun. Like working with the bellflower network. Halflings are fun. Or laying siege to citadel Rivad.

I'm thinking much the same thing. I started a thread "After AP Liberating Westcrown" I'm thinking first order of business is to send Vorne and his Naval security force away (through diplomacy or force) or hold the city against them. But they really need to get full control of the city first. Then make it ready for when Cheliax gets serious. Hellknights, Inquisitors, the church of Asmodeus, the full navy, the army of Cheliax.

Without distractions and aid it looks grim for Westcrown and the heroes. But if they can find some powerful friends, and convince neighboring countries to make moves to keep Cheliax busy, well they might just have a chance.

I took out all the extra planer and powerful entities and am thinking of making it just strong NPC's and monsters and battles of diplomacy and armies. Of course summoning and cleric powers are still there .. just no planer travel or direct intervention of higher powers. I figure they can just cancel each other out or be too busy to bother.

He's a pretty tough creature to include in the AP as it's written. (I also think the Dragons pretending to be humans on a regular basis isn't something I would do.) But after the final battle if they want to continue in Westcrown, perhaps he was locked away, cursed, poisoned, or was laying low.

Someone from the resistance group Tyraxalan used to lead contacts them to see if they can fix whatever kept him away. And he certainly could be a powerful ally against what the Hellknights might bring when they return to Westcrown.

But personally I would keep them on the same side. Dragons are pretty smart and one would think Tyraxalan would help the heroes more than hinder them. But if it works for you and your group then run with it :)

Wescrown uses the symbol of Aroden as their coar of arms I believe. The Dottari wear a black eye with wings on a red background. And considering the colors of Cheliax that sounds about right. A paladin might go with different colors though.

Sieges before the age of gunpowder would often last months, even years. And the army and navy of Cheliax have concerns beyond just Westcrown. They also aren't the only ones with magical aid available. And the central island of the city would be extremely defensible. And yes lack of supplies and poor health conditions were often the way sieges ended, that's why they were sieges. And yes it's a huge city with miles of walls, like many of the great cities of history.

The civil war that ended in the rise of the house of Thrune lasted 34 years. They had dealings with devils before that started. Obviously just having devils help you isn't going to be the automatic win. And what happens if players slip out from time to time and go to other countries for aid. How many of them would take the opportunity deal a little trouble to their devil worshiping neighbors?

I'm wondering about a 13-20 style fate of the kingdom type campaign where the gods and powerful otherworldly forces pretty much cancel each other out, so it's up to the will, armies and magic of the people to sort it out. Through diplomacy, strategy and difficult choices how might a group of heroes free Cheliax from it's Diabolic yolk? Rebellion of Westcrown would be an excellent start.

Vorne doesn't expect a full blown rebellion, he's planning on sailing onto Westcrown and restoring order and sailing out again. If even a tenth of the full navy was with him I'd be surprised. It's a big navy that has all the inner sea and beyond to patrol. Except for large scale naval battles in times of war there probably aren't more than a dozen ships in any one place other than Ostenso.

And yes what I am asking is How might the heroes go about this task in your opinion.

My last thread sort of turned into this so I might as well give it a proper name.

Players don't like to leave things half done. And helping out Westcrowns nightlife is only the beginning. As Janavin said in her initial speech, the people of Westcrown and Cheliax chafe under the oppressive weight of diabolic rule. So what is a party of Adventurers to do when the Diabolic navy sails into their newly freed city.

My thinking is that they don't use a lot of magic in the navy. Summoning devils on a ship might not be the best idea. SO the Navy only has a few sorcerers. In order to pacify a city they are going to have to dock in the city get out of their boats. Making them a less well trained army trying to fight a battle in a city.

For the most part the people of Westcrown don't remember the horrors of the civil war, and have been harassed and beaten down by the nobility and the hellknights for their entire lives. Now the nobles are mostly gone and the helknights are virtual nonexistent in the city. The heroes have just lifted a curse that has caused hardship and fear for 30 years. I think the people of the city would be willing to follow a call to open rebellion.

So where does that leave the heroes? With bigger challenges for sure. Does anyone have any idea of how things might play out from here? They are a group of powerful individuals with a loyal following in on of the largest cities on the planet. My instinct says siege, and a long one.

Long enough to stir up the enemies of Cheliax? They certainly aren't well liked by their neighbors or even many of the citizens within the empire. Could a rebelling Westcrown ignite a civil war that leads to the fall of house Thrune, especially when there is a group of heroes traveling and fanning the flames?

An amazing map and wonderful resource. It even had a distance key, wonderful!

Thanks for posting your excellent work.

In Westcrown at least, the head of the hellknights (And I would assume their most powerful member)is Paralictor Gonville Chard. He's level 9 and the average hellknight is stated as CR5 and level 6. Do you mean to imply that a group of 5 level 11 Characters are going to be taken into custody if they try to start something? When they are beloved by the citizens. Those Hellknights are as good as dead if they even try to make threatening gestures,even Lictor Richemar Almansor is only level 14, and he should be the most powerful member of the order.

And ya liberating the city COULD start with holding off a naval attack. Since they are coming to 'restore order' in some unspecified manner. Just showing up with lots of boats and marines isn't going to magically quell a rebelling populace. Unless of course they use magic.

I try not to underestimate the ambition of my players. Once their characters start getting levels under them they are as likely to put an arrow into Admiral Vourne and fire every ship docked in port as listen to him order them to attend a meeting on his ship. (Ya I know there would be consequences to that action, they would probably count on that.)

But I think I'm going off on tangents. I was just asking for some rough estimates in case the players get ideas. (They always seem to get ideas). I can pretty much be assured they aren't going to the hellknights for help unless they need armor and weapons to distribute. Maybe I'll switch it up for Dottari. But I expect that they are gonna clean out Citadel Rivad if they save the city and are level 12 with nothing else to do.

It's not that I need exact numbers. But there are NO numbers. I haven't even started the AP yet but I can see players wanting to truly liberate the city (since that's the first big speech they get). And Since it is a walled city with a huge population it could withstand a pretty big siege for a long time if they managed to incite true rebellion amongst the dissatisfied populace.

So a number like 'hundreds of ships, with tens of thousands of marines' would be helpful. It's like how many hellkinghts are there in the order of the Rack? What about if the players get ambitious and try and take them down. With the help of a couple local powerful NPC's it seems like it might be possible. A party of level 12+ players can do some damage even to big armies or navys.

I'm a little dismayed at the lack of information given on Westcrown, and on any of the countries. I mean the whole AP takes place in one city, you would think they could add some people and places for the players to feel like they 'live' in the city. Sure I can figure stuff out on my own, but what happens when the next supplement arrives and I have to backtrack. Some real info might be nice even if it doesn't specifically pertain to a set encounter, you know what I mean. I seem to remember Cauldron having a lot more 'flavor'.

But that might just be me ... I think I'll send the navy from Ostenso too. Thanks for the info.

So in The Twice-damned Prince it states that the General Vourne has taken the Imperial Navy and headed down the Adivian River from Egorian to put an end to the chaos and unrest in Westcrown.

Well since the destruction of the Third Stavian Arche, large sea going vessels can't go up the river to Egorian. So does that mean the navy has no large sea going vessels? And what possible reason would Cheliax have for keeping it's imperial navy so far from the Inner Sea? Also I thought that Ostenso was the city in Cheliax where the Imperial Navy called home.

Also, How big is the Navy? Ships, crews? For that matter how many hellknights are there, or how big is the Cheliax army? When trying to liberate a city the size of Westcrown these can be important numbers.

Would it be possible for someone to come up with a couple page giude to westcrown? A bit of city history (when it was founded, how it grew, what happened during the civil war, what the max population was before 2606 and what it was like in that time.)

Maybe put in a couple NPC names Opera stars, Brothel matrons, etc...

Give some of the organizations like where wizards learned their craft or where a few of the places a cleric who doesn't worship devils might have become a cleric.

I don't know what info is out there anywhere but in the players guide. But the players guide doesn't actual say much about Westcrown itself, and presumably my character has lived there their whole life. I could make stuff up for flavor but in a city based AP, I am leery to make stuff up about the city.

So is there any possibility that someone who knows the city well could whip up a couple pages to help those new to Westcrown without giving anything away? Just stuff a long time resident (like a 130 year old elf) might know.

Is there anything you can say to help a newly made rogue feel like he lives in Westcrown?

What does the character know about the Council of Theives. Presumably they learned their trade in the organization. What rules constrain them and their activities (besides don't be caught out in the dark). The Mafia is not a very secret organization, everyone knows about it, they just don't talk about it.

What jobs are there if you make a rogue that isn't the least bit a knee breaker? Who do you report to? Do you pay a percentage of takes? In an AP named after an organization of thieves I would think it's important information for a rogue character to know.

I'd have an Olman frantically running down the beach clutching something in his arms. Before the party has a chance to go see him some kinda monster (probably a dino) reaches out of the jungle and chomps off his head and proceeds to start devouring the rest. Now they have to fight for whatever treasure it was the Olman had (or just chase away the monster, unless it wanders away by itself having just eaten). And what the .. it's that bat idol?!

Of course it was all planned by someone. Of the olam to find the idol. For the hungry monster to be there when the olman ran by. Setting up a group of adventurers isn't easy but if they don't all get TPK'd it's worth it.

So they killed the personal aspect of the god, looted his temple then returned to the village saying how they saved his people. I don't think returning the idol will be on the top of the list of things Zolzilaha will be thinking about.

I know if it were my temple they broke into, killed my earthly manifestation and looted my cool sacrifices I'd be MAD! Like blow up a mountain and rain fiery death kinda mad. The next aspect would have more purpose than just guarding my temple. He would get every piece of that treasure back before he would think about letting the village survive.

Have him appear in the village (bonfire turns into a fiery column surrounded by flaming bats, new aspect steps out) and demand the return of every piece of treasure and an additional appropriate sacrifice to make up for the insults. Unwillingness to comply would begin with Volcanoes erupting and shaking the island followed by rain of fire, followed by attack of numerous fire bats, and then a buffed out aspect attack. The gods are never reasonable, and seldom let a slight go unpunished.

Harsh I know ... but he's not the happy flower god of the halflings.

New to message boards so bear with me here ...

The Jade Ravens are fun to have around why not have them work for the Merivanchies(SP?). Same with the Blue Nixie, say it was leased from the Merivanchies. Need a kidnap victim The lovely Lady Drucila Merivanchi the smart and beautiful daughter of Lord whatshisname Merivanchi who has to take over after his death in the pirate attack. (course you will have to kill off mustach merivanchi some time before he dies too so she is having to take on an impotant roll, of Mayor say)

Now you have a Mayor who is easy to make into a plot hook and can get involved with a seperate member of the party (so now you have 3 hooked, psudo lavinia, the one stopping Demogorgon and the one involved with the lovely mayor. Course you might have to add someone for the slavery/olman angle but that's pretty easy.

Hope this sparks some Ideas.

The Zooman