Yaba's page

It sounds like the cover rules actually cover the concept pretty well. If it isn't strapped on it will need a minimum of two hands, so not the sort of thing one wields when they plan to strike back. The improvised shield has its own hardness and hit points, after which the cover breaks.

If someone does find a way to wield an improvised shield one-handed (for example, hold a door by the handle or a table by a leg), then it's like any other similarly-sized shield, although probably with higher armor check skill penalty, lower max dexterity, and higher spell failure, due to how awkward it would be to carry. Not sure if there is any official standard for this adjustment.

There are two routes to go for enchanting clothes. One is wondrous items, which take up an item slot on the body (probably the BODY slot if it's a full outfit). The other is the Silken Ceremonial Armor, which takes the ARMOR slot.

Remember that using armor, even armor with no non-magical benefit, means that the wearer needs armor proficiency and loses any benefits of being unarmored. In particular this would prove problematic for the Monk class. It also raises the cost, since the enhancement bonus to AC is mandatory and always counts as the primary effect of the armor; any spell effects added to armor cost 1.5x the recommended price for that ability alone.

In the case of Endure Elements, adding it to a body slot wondrous item would cost 1000 GP (plus the non-magical garment base price) as Quixote described. Since the item isn't a weapon or armor, masterwork is not required. Adding the same enchantment to armor means starting with a masterwork armor, adding at least +1 enhancement bonus, then adding the Endure Elements. That's a minimum cost of 2650 GP (total 2680 GP using Silken Ceremonial +1 Armor of Endure Elements).

The original prerequisites were based on the D&D 3E MoMF prestige class. I'm fine with the idea of expanding them by adding options to the selector, but need to make sure any offerings lend to the flavor of the class. I'm not familiar enough with all of the expansion classes to write up appropriate options, but here is a start.

PREREQUISITES:
¤ FEAT: Endurance
¤ FEAT: Altertness
¤ HIT DICE: 5+
¤ ONE OF:
¤¤ Shapechanger Subtype
¤¤ Ability to cast two Transmutation spells from the Polymorph subschool
¤¤ Wild Shape class ability
¤¤ Mutagen class ability with Feral Mutagen discovery
¤¤ Animal Focus and Second Animal Focus class abilities

Replaced the "Recover" class feature with "Mimicry".

Mimicry
As a full-round action, the Morphic Master may use the Transformation ability and make a disguise check, to assume the appearance of a specific individual.

I decided to cut the bonus from Bolstered Body in half, to a maximum of +5 at 10th level. As an untyped bonus, this benefit stacks with other ability score adjustments.

I am also considering adding Shapechanger Subtype as a prerequisite option, alongside Wild Shape class feature and ability to cast polymorph spells.

Need to add to the Transformation class feature text to use the sum of all class levels as the equivalent caster level when using the Transformation ability.

The reason this class gets so many extra perks is that, by level 17, several spellcasting classes get access to the Shapechange spell. Taking this prestige class would typically mean giving up access to high-level spells, so the sacrifice needs to be worthwhile.

I'm going to pull a comment out of context which was said to me in another unrelated discussion. The comment itself is relevant to this conversation, while the context is not. I will also paraphrase slightly.

When you attack with two limbs as part of a full attack, you don't attack with both limbs at once. You attack with one limb, reposition, then attack with the other limb.

This is the reason why the grappling creature would get all its natural attacks, even while grappling. Each individual strike is possible, so no individual strike is prevented. A grappling creature is not restrained; if it was, it would be pinned. Grappling as a condition also does not distinguish between the initiator of the grapple and the one initially targeted.

On a letter-of-the-law note, a full attack action does not require two hands. As others have said, it is simply the action used when making more than one attack in a round. There is no distinction made regarding whether the combatant has multiple weapons. A full attack doesn't require two "hands", and each individual attack within it doesn't require two "hands". Therefore a full attack is allowed in a grapple, regardless of any other factors, and will typically include all the creature's natural attacks.

This is the reason PCs typically will not attempt to grapple creatures with lots of natural attacks. If a fighter with high CMB could limit any creature (like a hydra for example) to a single natural attack by grappling it, monsters with multiple natural attacks would cease to be a threat. Grappling is already an effective way to cripple spellcasters. It's not supposed to be a way to cripple monsters too.

Just to make sure the issue is addressed, this does mean that, by RAW, any natural attack that DOES require multiple limbs would be prohibited in a grapple. This means rake attacks, rends, and other special attacks that specifically list two or more limbs in their description cannot be used while grappling.

Homunculus would be great, but there's a catch. He has to craft it himself. This means he needs to have the Craft Construct feat. If he does happen to already have that feat, he needs to spend at least 2 days crafting it, and that's assuming he can make the crafting DC. He may also need to hire help with the crafting process, since he can't see his spellbook in the interim to prepare spells.

The aspect mask seems like it would cover him in combat, but not as effectively as the more expensive options, and as a solo solution it means he's still fully blind most of the time. Also the darkvision is useless for him, so bat aspect would be pointless until level 15.

If the player likes his/her wizard but would be amenable to changing out his spell options, consider pairing a braille spell book (a copy of his own or one that he finds) with either an Eastern Star Ioun Stone (comprehend languages continuous) or an intelligence-boosting item that grants braille as a known language. He can then learn braille as a language next time he gains a rank in the linguistics skill, since someone who depends on knowing the language for his career path would gain the benefit of constant exposure.

Down the road, you could even use braille as a plot hook, with the party coming across things like a spiked pit trap with braille patterns. Give the wizard (and anyone else who bothers to learn braille) a linguistics check to notice the pattern. For added amusement, mix in illusory spikes with the real ones to foil the pattern for sighted creatures, and if you are feeling generous, have the braille spikes spell out hints or even spell descriptions (which the wizard can copy into his braille spell book).

Remember that someone who exclusively uses blindsight is effectively immune to visual illusions and gaze attacks. Fire, electricity, and incorporeal creatures are probably invisible to them. They can also 'see' around (but not through) physical barriers, and can see force effects as if they were physical objects.

The point we are trying to make, is that the answer to the original question is no. When a magic item granting an intelligence bonus is created, all benefits of that bonus are assigned during item creation, and are static. Otherwise items that grant INT bonuses would be too powerful, because the user would just need to switch the bonus to whichever skill they happen to need at the time (by removing and re-donning the item), effectively making it a bonus to EVERY skill.

Here's a couple questions I don't see in this discussion yet. What is the blinded character's primary class? And what level is the party on average?

Or are we reading the wrong, meaning you got your hands on an actual magic artifact in real life, and rather than reporting it to the press or selling it to the nearest billionaire you decided to make the players in your game draw from it?

Found a couple reasonably priced sources of vision alternatives. Fungal eyes are available in the Alchemy Manual and cost 18k GP for 30 foot blindsight. Sensing armor is available in the Advanced Class Guide, and starts at 16k GP for 5 foot blindsight and 60 foot blindsense.
https://aonprd.com/FungalGrafts.aspx
https://aonprd.com/MagicArmorDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Sensing

When worn, the veiled eye has the same vision as the wearer (such as low-light vision, darkvision 60 ft., or the oracle’s clouded vision curse).

This line worries me. If he had lost his eyes, regeneration would fix it. If he had mundane blindness, cure blindness would fix it. So it sounds like this is instead a permanent magical condition, akin to the Oracle curse of clouded vision, but imposing total blindness.

If the PC in question is not by nature a long-range combatant (such as an archer or AoE damage wizard), I would instead advise use of an item that grants a vision alternative. The most desirable option would be blindsight to a fixed range, possibly with a less precise vision alternative out to a greater fixed range. Keep in mind that blindsight is a very valuable perk. Other vision alternatives include (but are not limited to) blindsense, tremorsense, scent, and lifesense (see Oracle of life). {Example: Blindsight to 5 ft with blindsense to 30 ft}

If the PC used a spellbook, they will need to have someone help them transcribe it into braille.

I took a closer look at the FAQ linked by the OP. The wording could have been clearer, but I gather the gist of it. Basically, augments don't add talons. The people who make the rules reserve the use of talons for specific creatures. If your race already has talons, your race already has talons. If you gain a claw attack, you gain a claw attack according to the limitations specified in the FAQ. Items or spells that include 'talon' in their names still grant claw attacks per their descriptive text, and the name is just a name.

And aside from the reliance on naming something a claw or a talon, I agree with the mechanical aspects of the FAQ. I agreed with it without even looking at it first. I agree with it because I have cats and have observed their behavior. I agree with it because I have a mental acuity for such details and can understand the mechanical complexities involved. And I agree with it because the primary exception, that being someone who is sufficiently skilled or gifted to bypass the mechanical difficulties inherent in making attacks with any or all of their limbs in a complex combat situation, is already covered by the Monk class feature called Flurry of Blows.

Now if a GM decides to override the decision of the publishers, that is up to the GM, because the GM is the arbiter of the rules for games that the GM runs. The FAQ is there for GMs who seek advice from the entities who made the rules, and to prevent players from manipulating the rules without the consent of their GMs.

I think it’d be more exhausting to set up all of that stuff than to do the actual exercise. But more importantly, you can often evade and attack as part of the same move.

If you think laying a tape measure on the floor and taping two sheets of paper to walls would be more exhausting than the equivalent of a high school sport team's sprint drill, then I can no longer place any trust in your judgement of action difficulty.

On a more general note, as a GM I would have no qualms about placing claws on a character's feet, but usage would be limited based on the difficulty of bringing such weapons to bear. For flying creatures like the Strix, it's barely a limitation, but for someone reliant on their feet for transit, I would limit the attack options to a rake attack during a grapple or pounce, or when prone. Damage die would probably be 1d3 per foot for a medium-size creature, and given the -5 penalty for secondary natural attacks (negated by a feat), it wouldn't be much of a game balance issue.

The point is that it is possible for some to do this in the real world, so the argument against it working is completely baseless.

If you don’t believe that then get a timer and throw a punch with each arm and a kick with each leg. And even throw in a headbutt. Unless you are incredibly slow that will take you less than 6 seconds, and you’re probably not even a natural fighter. Imagine how fast that would be if you were actually good at fighting. Also, you can take a five foot step in the middle of a full attack action. So, you could even attack with one leg and then 5 foot step to another enemy and attack them with the other leg. All in 6 seconds.

There is a LOT of motion in that six seconds that isn't specifically accounted in the actions a character takes on his/her turn.

Try this. Roll out a tape measure to five feet. Set up paper targets 3-4 feet past each end of the tape measure. Start at one end, facing the target. Make your two punches and two kicks. Make three fake dodges (let's say sidesteps, those are quick). Putting your foot down from a kick does not count as a dodge. Now scramble to the other end of that tape measure. Repeat this four more times. If done correctly, you have now been moving for 30 seconds and made 20 strikes, and are probably tired. If done incorrectly, you are either over the time limit, or you fell down at least once. For more realism, try doing all this while wearing a winter coat (or trench coat) over a sweatshirt, to simulate the weight and resistance of light armor.

Did you try this yet, Melkiador? I am genuinely curious about the result.

I made this more than a year ago based loosely on the 3rd edition Master of Many Forms. Worked out the design over the course of several months, but never got around to making it public. Made a couple recent tweaks, since there are now published versions of spells I originally had to homebrew.

_____________________________________

MORPHIC MASTER

PREREQUISITES:
FEAT: Endurance
FEAT: Altertness
HIT DICE: 5+
ONE OF:
¤ Wild Shape
¤ Ability to cast two Transmutation spells from the Polymorph subschool

HIT DIE = d8
SKILL POINTS = 6 per level
CLASS SKILLS = Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Stealth, Swim

PROGRESSIONS:
BAB = BASE 0 + 3/4 HD (MEDIUM)
FORT = BASE 2 + 1/2 HD (GOOD)
REF = BASE 2 + 1/2 HD (GOOD)
WILL = BASE 0 + 1/3 HD (POOR)

CLASS TABLE
LEVEL 1:
¤ Changes/Day = 2
¤ Specials = Transformation, Morphic Speech, Morphic Equipment 1
¤ Transformation Options = Alter Self, Beast Shape 1
LEVEL 2:
¤ Changes/Day = 3
¤ Specials = Bolstered Body
¤ Transformation Options = Monstrous Physique 1
LEVEL 3:
¤ Changes/Day = 4
¤ Specials = Quick Change (Move)
¤ Transformation Options = Beast Shape 2, Elemental Body 1, Vermin Shape 1
LEVEL 4:
¤ Changes/Day = 5
¤ Specials = Persistent Form 1
¤ Transformation Options = Aberrant Form 1, Fey Form 1, Monstrous Physique 2
LEVEL 5:
¤ Changes/Day = 6
¤ Specials = Morphic Equipment 2
¤ Transformation Options = Beast Shape 3, Elemental Body 2, Vermin Shape 2
LEVEL 6:
¤ Changes/Day = 8
¤ Specials = Shapechanger Subtype
¤ Transformation Options = Monstrous Physique 3, Ooze Shape 1, Plant Shape 1
LEVEL 7:
¤ Changes/Day = 10
¤ Specials = Recover
¤ Transformation Options = Aberrant Form 2, Beast Shape 4, Elemental Body 3,
Fey Form 2, Plant Shape 2
LEVEL 8:
¤ Changes/Day = 12
¤ Specials = Quick Change (Swift)
¤ Transformation Options = Aberrant Form 3, Fey Form 3, Form of the Dragon 1,
Monstrous Physique 4, Ooze Shape 2
LEVEL 9:
¤ Changes/Day = 15
¤ Specials = Persistent Form 2
¤ Transformation Options = Elemental Body 4, Form of the Dragon 2, Giant Form 1, Plant Shape 3
LEVEL 10:
¤ Changes/Day = 18
¤ Specials = Blended Body, Gargantua
¤ Transformation Options = Fey Form 4, Form of the Dragon 3, Giant Form 2, Ooze Shape 3

Transformation (SU)
As a Morphic Master, you can assume the form of another creature. This change functions in a manner similar to the listed spells from the Transmutation (Polymorph) subschool, except where modified by other class abilities.
Available forms are listed in the Transformation Options column of the Morphic Master class table.
This ability (and any abilities tied to it) may be used a number of times per day as listed in the changes/day column of the Morphic Master class table.

Morphic Speech (EX)
You can emulate speech regardless of your physical form. This allows both communication and use of verbal spell components. You qualify for the Natural Spell feat, even if you do not meet the normal prerequisites.

Morphic Equipment 1 (SU)
If you transform into a creature with a body shape similar to your own, you can choose to continue wearing your equipment rather than absorbing it. Your equipment will resize to fit the new form. If your new form has extra limbs, temporary gaps will open in your equipment where these limbs connect to your body; this does not damage the equipment. All of your equipment is affected in the same manner.

Bolstered Body (EX)
While using Transformation, you gain an ability score bonus equal to your Morphic Master class level. If you assume a form that is Medium or larger, this bonus applies to Strength. If you assume a form that is Small or smaller, this bonus applies to Dexterity. This stacks with any other applicable bonuses.

Quick Change (Move)
You can use your Transformation ability as a move action.

Persistent Form 1
Your transformations now last longer. When you change shape, you may remain in your chosen form for up to ten minutes for each of your class hit dice. (All classes stack when determining the duration for this ability.)

Morphic Equipment 2 (SU)
When you transform, regardless of your assumed shape, you may choose to either absorb or continue wearing your equipment. This decision applies separately to each piece of equipment you are wearing when you transform. Equipment will resize and reshape to accommodate the new form, including modified or extra limbs.

Shapechanger Subtype
You gain the Shapechanger subtype. This applies to your natural form and all assumed forms. You can automatically resist any transmutation effect that would change your physical form, unless you choose to accept it.

Recover (EX)
Any time you rest for one hour, you recover one use of your Transformation ability.

Quick Change (Swift)
You can use Transformation once per round as a swift action at any time during your turn. Additional transformations require a move action as normal.

Persistent Form 2
Your transformations now count as both EX and SU. While transformed, you may choose to remain in your current form even if exposed to an effect that would normally end or suppress it, such as an antimagic field. Such conditions still prevent you from assuming a new form. If using Morphic Equipment, the equipment remains. Other supernatural or spell-like abilities are still affected as normal.

Gargantua (EX)
If you could normally assume the form of a Huge creature of a type, you may instead assume the form of a Gargantuan creature of that type. Gain the adjustments listed for a Huge size creature, with an additional +4 to Strength, +2 to Constitution, and +4 Natural Armor.
If you could normally assume the form of a Large creature (and no spell grants access to a huge creature of that type), you may instead assume the form of a Huge creature of that type. Gain the adjustments listed for a Large size creature, with an additional +2 to Strength, +2 to Constitution, and +2 Natural Armor.
In either case, size modifiers apply for the assumed creature size.

Blended Body (SU)
Through constant transformation, you have learned to blend the best traits of different forms. Once per day, choose one of the options below. Regardless of the forms you assume that day, gain the benefit of the selected option each time you transform.
¤ ABBERATION: Gain blindsight to 30 feet.
¤ BEAST: You gain a set of wings that work in both water and air. Gain a fly speed (average maneuverability) and a swim speed, both equal to twice your base speed. You can breathe both air and water, regardless of your form, unless prevented from doing so by another effect.
¤ ELEMENTAL: Choose one energy type. Your natural attacks deal 1d6 damage of that energy type, in addition to any other damage. If you would normally be vulnerable to that energy type, lose that vulnerability; otherwise you gain resistance 20 to that energy type. (Energy resistance does not stack; highest resistance applies.)
¤ HUMANOID: All of your limbs are prehensile and can wield weapons. A limb cannot be used for movement, speech, or natural attacks while it wields a weapon or holds an object, unless the object is 4 or more size categories smaller than you. Only one limb can be considered a primary weapons hand; all other limbs are treated as off-hands when wielding weapons.
¤ OOZE: You can squeeze through any space, regardless of your size. While occupying a space where you could not fit or squeeze without this ability, your movement speed is reduced to 5 feet per round, and you lose your dexterity bonus to AC (if any), in addition to the normal penalties for squeezing.
¤ PLANT: You are immune to critical hits, precision damage, and damage to your physical ability scores. (Existing ability damage remains.) Gain fast healing 1.

Personally I think ability boosts are fine as class perks. Don't call it a racial bonus though, because the bonuses aren't tied to a race or an assumed form. Make sure to state whether they stack with magical ability boosts from spells or magic items. (Both direct spells like Bull's Strength and indirect spells like Polymorph need to be addressed.) Also, when you say the enhanced body bonus increases "by +4", you need to clarify. Does this make the bonus to each ability score +4 total bonus or +6 total bonus?

I agree with the dead levels issue, especially at level 5 when many classes get big perks. I notice some features include multiple benefits, so you could try naming the benefits separately and staggering them. Although the dead levels are not REALLY dead, because Body Morph adds options at those levels. Maybe clarify this in the chart.

Speaking of which, the phrasing for Body Morph isn't great. I have some concerns about the balance as well, particularly if someone plays a Ghoran or a fey race that is made for PC use, because it opens up powers of other such creatures too early to be balanced. I suggest a different approach. Let the Morphmage mimic the physical appearance at first level for any of the listed creature types (think D&D 3rd edition changeling), then at subsequent levels grant scaling access to the racial traits (including movement modes, EX and SU powers) of the assumed forms. You can use the polymorph subschool spells as a guide for determining which abilities are suitable for what levels. Either list the spells to reference or list the individual features. If listing the spells, don't award them too far ahead of when a spellcaster could access them.

Melkiador wrote:

A round is six seconds long. All of the attacks don’t happen at the same time. So, a creature just attacks with one leg, then puts it on the ground and attacks with the other leg.

Or you do somethignn like this.

@Yaba: Don't forget that it takes less force to injure someone with claws, talons etc., as those tend to be sharp.

But it does take balance. That winding double kick is impressive... and made by a skilled martial artist. Definitely something I would lump under flurry of blows. If I tried anything remotely like that I'd fall flat.

In some cases it does take less force to cause injury with natural attacks, but the trade-off is that it takes more precision. If you need your feet to stand on, balance still becomes an issue when making natural attacks with those same feet.

Most creatures with both front and back leg attacks (or arm & leg attacks) either use the back legs in a grapple, a pounce (i.e. leap attack), or a dive (i.e. flying attack). Most of the damage from a claw or bite comes from the pull after the claws connect, not the initial push or puncture. (It's a fact I use against my cats if they get rowdy. Press in to pin the limbs and they are mostly harmless.)

None of that seems to do anything to disprove my assertion that you can attack with one leg and then the other within the span of 6 seconds, even with a 5 foot step between them, so were you just nitpicking?

I think the general point is, try doing all of that while somebody is whaling on you. Attacking in combat takes much more skill than doing it in an empty room. There is a LOT of motion in that six seconds that isn't specifically accounted in the actions a character takes on his/her turn. Natural attacks don't make someone lose their dex bonus to AC, which means they need to make those natural attacks without sacrificing attention or control.

If you make your two punches and two kicks in rapid succession, all an opponent needs to do is step into your face and you will land on your rear, guaranteed. Odds are it'll spoil your attacks as well. They could also step back, forcing you to overextend, and down you go (though you'll probably just land hard on that overextended leg, costing you time). Or sidestep one of the kicks and use the opportunity to whack you in the back. None of these actions require the degree of commitment that would define them as combat maneuvers.

Also, a five-foot step isn't ONE step.

Try this. Roll out a tape measure to five feet. Set up paper targets 3-4 feet past each end of the tape measure. Start at one end, facing the target. Make your two punches and two kicks. Make three fake dodges (let's say sidesteps, those are quick). Putting your foot down from a kick does not count as a dodge. Now scramble to the other end of that tape measure. Repeat this four more times. If done correctly, you have now been moving for 30 seconds and made 20 strikes, and are probably tired. If done incorrectly, you are either over the time limit, or you fell down at least once. For more realism, try doing all this while wearing a winter coat (or trench coat) over a sweatshirt, to simulate the weight and resistance of light armor.

Fourth draft. Hoping I still have the balance right. I wanted to make the class as close to universal as possible, without making it more complicated than it already is, or introducing too much power (which would overshadow existing classes). The main idea is that class powers can be accessed largely through 'extra' feats, thus ensuring that the number of perks remains fixed despite the expansive array of options.

Some class features proved too complicated to introduce, or too powerful to include in the mix with so many other options. I couldn't find a good way to include bardic performance, and some oracle revelations are too powerful to cost just one 'extra revelation' feat. The perks for the rogue, ninja, and magus classes appear to have built-in moderation of their more potent power options, in the form of arcane or ki points, which worked better with the overall design of this class. Monk ki powers would have been good to include, but they are awarded by level, rather than being selectable perks; there is no feat tied to gaining 'extra' monk powers, and adding a mechanic to include them would have added unwanted complexity to an already complex class.

Fortunately, since a lot of class powers parallel spells, having access to spells mitigates the exclusion of such powers.

------------------------

GESTALT CLASS FEATURES

AT FIRST LEVEL GAIN ALL OF THE FOLLOWING IN ANY ORDER:
¤ Base attack bonus (BAB) = 0
¤ Hitpoints = CON score (total score, not modifier)
¤ 4* feats (*see multiclassing notes)
¤ 2 saves gain +2 bonus, third save is +0
¤ Select 6 preferred skills (gain class skill bonus in each selected skill)
¤ Skill ranks = 4 + INT modifier
¤ One common language (spoken & written) plus racial language if applicable

AT FIRST LEVEL SELECT AND GAIN 3 OF THE FOLLOWING IN ANY ORDER:
¤ Base attack bonus (BAB) increase by +1
¤ 3 additional preferred skills
¤ 2 feats
¤ 8 skill ranks
¤ 3 spell slots (1st spell tier)
¤ 6 spells known (any spell tier, including cantrips/orisons)
¤ Lay on hands class feature (choose positive or negative energy, 1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not grant uses/day)
¤ Power pool (does not include pool points or passive benefits, acts as both arcane pool and ki pool)
¤ Rage class feature (does not grant rounds/day)
¤ Sneak attack class feature (+1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up)

AT FIRST LEVEL SELECT AND GAIN ONE OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Channel energy class feature (1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not include uses/day)
¤ Evasion (becomes improved evasion at level 8+)
¤ Spellbook (scribe spells to book from scrolls or spells known, choose spells known from book once per day)
¤ Spell combat class feature (see magus)
¤ Spellstrike class feature (see magus)
¤ Trapfinding class feature (see rogue)
¤ Unarmed impact (increase damage die of unarmed strike by one creature size per 4 BAB rounded up)
¤ Uncanny dodge (includes improved at level 8+)
¤ 3 feats

AT EACH LEVEL ABOVE FIRST GAIN ALL OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Hitpoints increase by 5 + CON modifier
¤ 2 saves gain +1 bonus
¤ Add skill ranks = 2 + INT modifier

AT EACH LEVEL ABOVE FIRST SELECT AND GAIN 3 OF THE FOLLOWING IN ANY ORDER:
¤ Base attack bonus (BAB) increase by +1
¤ 1 feat
¤ Add 6 skill ranks
¤ 2 spell slot in next higher tier (must have 6+ slots in highest current tier to qualify)
¤ 2 spell slots in highest existing tier (1st tier if no spell slots possessed)
¤ 3 spells known (any spell tier, including cantrips/orisons)
¤ Reduce spell failure chance from armor or shields by 5% (stacking)

AT LEVEL 4 GAIN ONE OF THE FOLLOWING CLASS FEATURES:
¤ Magus arcana class feature (does not include a known arcana)
¤ Paladin mercy class feature (does not include a mercy)
¤ Rage power class feature (does not include a rage power)
¤ Rogue talent / ninja trick class feature (does not include a talent/trick)

AT LEVEL 8 AND EVERY 4 LEVELS THEREAFTER (L8,L12,L16,L20) SELECT AND GAIN ONE OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Advanced rogue talents / ninja master tricks class feature (does not include a talent/trick)
¤ Channel energy class feature (1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not include uses/day)
¤ Jack of all trades (see bard)
¤ Lay on hands class feature (positive or negative energy, 1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not include uses/day)
¤ Power pool (does not include pool points or passive benefits, acts as both arcane pool and ki pool)
¤ Rage class feature (does not grant rounds/day)
¤ Sneak attack class feature (+1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up)
¤ Spellbook (scribe spells to book from scrolls or spells known, choose new spells known from book once per day)
¤ Spell combat class feature (see magus)
¤ Spellstrike class feature (see magus)
¤ Trapfinding class feature (see rogue)
¤ Unarmed impact (increase damage die of unarmed strike by one creature size per 4 BAB rounded up)
¤ Uncanny dodge with improved uncanny dodge

FEAT CHANGES
¤ Martial weapon proficiency grants a group of similar simple & martial weapons (rather than a single weapon type). Refer to the fighter weapon training class feature for suggested weapon groups.
¤ Ignore feat prerequisites that specify membership in a specific class.
¤ Class feature prerequisites still apply.
¤ Replace class level prerequisites with character level.
¤ Both the 'extra arcane pool' and 'extra ki' feats add points to the power pool.

SPELLS AND SPELL TIERS
¤ Spells are cast using spontaneous spellcasting. Any spell known can be cast using a spell slot of equal or higher tier.
¤ All spells from all classes are available, regardless of whether they are considered arcane or divine.
¤ Arcane spell failure chance from armor applies.
¤ Spell casters may select INT, WIS, or CHA as their primary ability score for casting. Once made, this decision cannot be changed.
¤ Ability score does not grant bonus spell slots per day.
¤ There is no tier cap on spell slots.
¤ Feats that grant extra spell slots per day (if any such feats exist) are not permitted.
¤ The spell tier for any spell is determined by the lowest-numbered option applicable from the list below.
{1} If a spell is available to one or more full caster classes (classes that gain up to 9th level spells), use the lowest level that any of those classes could gain the spell as its spell tier.
{2} If a spell is available only to mid casters (classes that gain up to 6th level spells), use 1.5 times the lowest level that any of those classes could gain the spell, rounded up, as its spell tier.
{3} If a spell is available only to auxiliary casters (classes that gain up to 3rd or 4th level spells), use twice the lowest level that any of those classes could gain the spell as its spell tier.

MULTICLASSING
¤ If multiclassing, disregard all weapon/armor/shield proficiencies gained from other classes, or reduce initial feat allotment from this class by the number of feats needed to acquire those proficiencies (minimum zero).
¤ Unarmed impact does not stack with monk improved unarmed strike class feature.
¤ Sneak attack does not stack with rogue/ninja class feature. Use whichever is better.

OTHER NOTES
¤ This class does not gain weapon or armor proficiency by default. These must be gained using feats.
¤ Many options grant class features, but do not include the benefits of those features, such as uses per day. These class features grant access to feats with 'extra' in their titles, which provide the benefits of their respective class features.
¤ Any option may only be selected once (per level) for each time it is listed.

A round is six seconds long.

I have always been under the impression that one did a lot more than just take one's own actions during that six seconds. For example, avoiding injury and keeping track of one's surroundings.

I remember learning in basic (white belt) martial arts that the power of an attack comes from the body, not just the limb. Striking with precision and power takes longer than just tossing a limb out and bringing it back again. Punches are faster because the legs and waist position the body for power and balance while the arms aim. Kicks are slower, partly because the person kicking needs to shift their weight just to free each leg to move.

Trained martial artists learn more efficient methods of combining the various actions needed to strike solidly with an array of limbs. That's what flurry of blows represents.

Out of curiosity, I tried it. Two punches took only a second, and I could sidestep immediately afterwards. Two kicks took four seconds for side kicks, or about two and a half seconds for weaker front kicks; any less and I had both feet off the ground at once. And I wasn't dodging anything at the time. (Side kicks were turn/kick/turn/step/turn/kick/turn/step, which is why they took so long. My balance isn't bad, but it isn't great either.)

As far as what is a claw vs a talon, I figure it comes down talons having opposite thumbs while claws have side thumbs or no thumbs.

Not allowing claws or talons on strix feet is a copout for the sake of balance. A strix with clawed/taloned feet is basically a physical mimic of a harpy.

For me, the biggest issue with claw or talon attacks on the feet is balance. By that I mean balance for the creature, not just balance for the game. Flying creatures like the harpy get away with it, because they are flying, which from a combat mechanic perspective is a lot like standing on their wings. But for your average walking creature, putting natural attacks on their legs means that during combat they don't have a leg to stand on.

If a creature does have four or more limbs, it turns into a question of directional control; the creature must be able to face its claws forward to use them in combat. Generally only a single pair of legs can be brought to bear against an opponent. This is why an eidolon can only apply the claws evolution to one pair of legs. (Back legs can still get a rake attack, because the creature's weight shifts to its grappling limbs.)

So does a fighter like character need to pick martial weapon proficiency several times if they want to proficient in multiple weapons?

Forgot to answer this question earlier. Yes, if a fighter mimic build wants to be proficient in every type of simple and martial weapon, they would probably need to use between six and eight feats. Off the top of my head, I would say: Swords (slashing), Swords (piercing), Axes & Picks, Polearms, Hammers & Flails, Bows, Simple Weapons (if only for crossbows). Not sure what category would encompass the scythe, since it's half way between a pick and a polearm. Double weapons basically fall under their respective single-end category with the addendum of needing two-weapon fighting.

Weapon groups are a compromise between the classes that get ALL martial weapon proficiencies for free and the RAW feat that grants ONE martial weapon proficiency. I'm not going to delve into the subject, since I'm pretty sure others have covered it in more depth than I could offer.

Based on past experience, I would expect most fighters to limit themselves to at most four weapon groups, making selections based on their preferred combat style, and allowing for a versatile enough arsenal to bypass damage reduction.

Third draft:

------------------------

GESTALT CLASS FEATURES

AT FIRST LEVEL GAIN ALL OF THE FOLLOWING IN ANY ORDER:
¤ Base attack bonus (BAB) = 0
¤ Hitpoints = CON score (total score, not modifier)
¤ 4* feats (*see multiclassing notes)
¤ 2 saves gain +2 bonus, third save is +0
¤ Select 6 preferred skills (gain class skill bonus in each selected skill)
¤ Skill ranks = 4 + INT modifier
¤ One common language (spoken & written) plus racial language if applicable

AT FIRST LEVEL SELECT AND GAIN 3 OF THE FOLLOWING IN ANY ORDER:
¤ Base attack bonus (BAB) increase by +1
¤ 2 spell slots (1st spell tier)
¤ 6 spells known (any spell tier, including cantrips/orisons)
¤ Lay on hands class feature (choose positive or negative energy, 1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not grant uses/day)
¤ Rage class feature (does not grant rounds/day)
¤ Sneak attack class feature (+1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up)
¤ Arcane pool class feature (does not include pool points)
¤ 3 additional preferred skills
¤ 2 feats
¤ 8 skill ranks

AT FIRST LEVEL SELECT AND GAIN 1 OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Evasion (becomes improved evasion at level 8+)
¤ Uncanny dodge (includes improved at level 8+)
¤ Trapfinding class feature (see rogue)
¤ Spell combat class feature (see magus)
¤ Channel energy class feature (1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not include uses/day)
¤ Unarmed impact (increase damage die of unarmed strike by one creature size per 4 BAB rounded up)
¤ Spellbook (scribe spells to book from scrolls or spells known, choose new spells known from book once per day)
¤ 3 feats

AT EACH LEVEL ABOVE FIRST GAIN ALL OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Hitpoints increase by 5 + CON modifier
¤ 2 saves gain +1 bonus
¤ Add skill ranks = 2 + INT modifier

AT EACH LEVEL ABOVE FIRST SELECT AND GAIN 3 OF THE FOLLOWING IN ANY ORDER:
¤ Base attack bonus (BAB) increase by +1
¤ 2 spell slot in next higher tier (must have 5+ slots in highest current tier to qualify)
¤ 2 spell slots in highest existing tier (1st tier if no spell slots possessed)
¤ 3 spells known (any spell tier, including cantrips/orisons)
¤ 1 feat
¤ Add 6 skill ranks

AT LEVEL 4 GAIN ONE OF THE FOLLOWING CLASS FEATURES:
¤ Magus arcana class feature (does not include a known arcana)
¤ Rage power class feature (does not include a rage power)
¤ Rogue talent / ninja trick class feature (does not include a talent/trick)
¤ Paladin mercy class feature (does not include a mercy)

AT LEVEL 8 AND EVERY 4 LEVELS THEREAFTER (L8,L12,L16,L20) SELECT AND GAIN 1 OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Uncanny dodge with improved uncanny dodge
¤ Rage class feature (does not grant rounds/day)
¤ Unarmed impact (increase damage die of unarmed strike by one creature size per 4 BAB rounded up)
¤ Sneak attack class feature (+1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up)
¤ Trapfinding class feature (see rogue)
¤ Advanced rogue talents / ninja master tricks class feature (does not include a talent/trick)
¤ Spellbook (scribe spells to book from scrolls or spells known, choose new spells known from book once per day)
¤ Spell combat class feature (see magus)
¤ Arcane pool class feature (does not include pool points)
¤ Lay on hands class feature (positive or negative energy, 1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not include uses/day)
¤ Channel energy class feature (1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not include uses/day)
¤ 2 additional preferred skills

FEAT CHANGES
¤ Martial weapon proficiency grants a group of similar simple & martial weapons (rather than a single weapon type).
¤ Ignore feat prerequisites that specify membership in a specific class.
¤ Class feature prerequisites still apply.
¤ Replace class level prerequisites with character level.

SPELLS AND SPELL TIERS
¤ Spells are cast using spontaneous spellcasting. Any spell known can be cast using a spell slot of equal or higher tier.
¤ All spells from all classes are available, regardless of whether they are considered arcane or divine.
¤ Spell casters may select INT, WIS, or CHA as their primary ability score for casting. Once made, this decision cannot be changed.
¤ Ability score does not grant bonus spell slots per day.
¤ There is no tier cap on spell slots.
¤ Feats that grant extra spell slots per day (if any such feats exist) are not permitted.
¤ The spell tier for any spell is determined by the lowest-numbered option applicable from the list below.
{1} If a spell is available to one or more full caster classes (classes that gain up to 9th level spells), use the lowest level that any of those classes could gain the spell as its spell tier.
{2} If a spell is available only to mid casters (classes that gain up to 6th level spells), use 1.5 times the lowest level that any of those classes could gain the spell, rounded up, as its spell tier.
{3} If a spell is available only to auxiliary casters (classes that gain up to 3rd or 4th level spells), use twice the lowest level that any of those classes could gain the spell as its spell tier.

MULTICLASSING
¤ If multiclassing, disregard all weapon/armor/shield proficiencies gained from other classes, or reduce initial feat allotment from this class by the number of feats needed to acquire those proficiencies.
¤ Unarmed impact does not stack with monk improved unarmed strike class feature.
¤ Sneak attack does not stack with rogue/ninja class feature. Use whichever is better.

OTHER NOTES
¤ This class does not gain weapon or armor proficiency by default. These must be gained using feats.
¤ The decision to exclude familiars/companions/bonds is intentional.
¤ Some features do not grant uses per day by default. Use feats to gain 'extra' uses/day.
¤ Any option may only be selected once (per level) for each time it is listed.

Well, I figured that since this was supposed to be a gestalt class, that making stronger characters was allowed. In other words, a Magus with a good attack bonus and 9th level spells.

Thanks, I understand now. Thought you were trying for a mimic of the class. It does honor the theme. It also showed that classes like the Magus are hard to mimic without including their primary class perks. What you made is both more and less than a Magus, which is a positive sign as far as balance.

Second draft.

------------------

GESTALT CLASS FEATURES

AT FIRST LEVEL GAIN ALL OF THE FOLLOWING IN ANY ORDER:
¤ Base attack bonus (BAB) = 0
¤ Hitpoints = CON score (total score, not modifier)
¤ 4* feats (*see multiclassing notes)
¤ 2 saves gain +2 bonus, third save is +0
¤ Select 6 preferred skills (gain class skill bonus in each selected skill)
¤ Skill ranks = 4 + INT modifier
¤ One common language (spoken & written) plus racial language if applicable

AT FIRST LEVEL SELECT AND GAIN 3 OF THE FOLLOWING IN ANY ORDER:
¤ Base attack bonus (BAB) increase by +1
¤ 2 spell slots (1st spell tier)
¤ 6 spells known (any spell tier, including cantrips/orisons)
¤ Lay on hands class feature (choose positive or negative energy, 1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not grant uses/day)
¤ Sneak attack class feature (+1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up)
¤ Rage class feature (does not grant rounds/day)
¤ Rogue talent / ninja trick class feature (does not grant a talent/trick)
¤ Arcane pool class feature (does not include arcane pool points)
¤ 3 additional preferred skills
¤ 2 feats
¤ 8 skill ranks

AT FIRST LEVEL SELECT AND GAIN 1 OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Evasion (becomes improved evasion at level 8+)
¤ Uncanny dodge (includes improved at level 8+)
¤ Trapfinding class feature
¤ Channel energy class feature (1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not grant uses/day)
¤ Unarmed impact (increase damage die of unarmed strike by one creature size per 4 BAB rounded up)
¤ Spellbook (can scribe spells from spells known or scrolls, use to change out spells known once per day)
¤ 3 feats

AT EACH LEVEL ABOVE FIRST GAIN ALL OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Hitpoints increase by 5 + CON modifier
¤ 2 saves gain +1 bonus
¤ Add skill ranks = 2 + INT modifier

AT EACH LEVEL ABOVE FIRST SELECT AND GAIN 3 OF THE FOLLOWING IN ANY ORDER:
¤ Base attack bonus increase by +1
¤ 2 spell slot in next higher tier (must have 5+ slots in highest current tier to qualify)
¤ 2 spell slots in highest existing tier (1st tier if no spell slots possessed)
¤ 3 spells known (any spell tier, including cantrips/orisons)
¤ Magus arcana class feature (does not include known arcana)
¤ Arcane pool class feature (does not include arcane pool points)
¤ 1 feat
¤ Add 6 skill ranks

AT LEVEL 8 AND AT LEVEL 14, SELECT AND GAIN 1 OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Uncanny dodge with improved uncanny dodge
¤ Trapfinding class feature
¤ Advanced rogue talents / ninja master tricks class feature (does not include a talent/trick)
¤ Lay on hands class feature (positive or negative energy, 1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not grant uses/day)
¤ Mercy class feature (includes 1 mercy, must have lay on hands class feature to qualify)
¤ Channel energy class feature (1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not grant uses/day)

FEAT CHANGES
¤ Martial weapon proficiency grants a group of similar simple & martial weapons.
¤ Ignore feat prerequisites that specify membership in a specific class.
¤ Class feature prerequisites still apply.
¤ Replace class level prerequisites with character level.

SPELLS AND SPELL TIERS
¤ All spells from all classes are available, regardless of whether they are considered arcane or divine.
¤ Spell casters may select INT, WIS, or CHA as their primary ability score for casting. Once made, this decision cannot be changed.
¤ Ability score does not grant bonus spell slots per day.
¤ There is no tier cap on spell slots.
¤ Feats that grant extra spell slots per day (if any such feats exist) are not permitted.
¤ The spell tier for any spell is determined by the lowest-numbered option applicable from the list below.
{1} If a spell is available to one or more full caster classes (classes that gain up to 9th level spells), use the lowest level that any of those classes could gain the spell as its spell tier.
{2} If a spell is available only to mid casters (classes that gain up to 6th level spells), use 1.5 times the lowest level that any of those classes could gain the spell, rounded up, as its spell tier.
{3} If a spell is available only to auxiliary casters (classes that gain up to 3rd or 4th level spells), use twice the lowest level that any of those classes could gain the spell as its spell tier.

MULTICLASSING
¤ If multiclassing, disregard all weapon/armor/shield proficiencies gained from other classes, or reduce initial feat allotment from this class by the number of feats needed to acquire those proficiencies.
¤ Unarmed impact does not stack with monk improved unarmed strike class feature.
¤ Sneak attack does not stack with rogue/ninja class feature. Use whichever is better.

OTHER NOTES
¤ This class does not gain weapon or armor proficiency by default. These must be gained using feats.
¤ The decision to exclude familiars/companions/bonds is intentional.
¤ Some features do not grant uses per day by default. Use feats to gain 'extra' uses/day.
¤ Any option may only be selected once (per level) for each time it is listed.

Thanks to both of you for the quick feedback. I'll do my best to answer.

Heather 540

On weapons: Yes, you need to use up a feat. Probably one of the four starters that everyone gets. Same goes for armor; someone who wants full heavy & shields up front would eat all four basic starter feats, but since no one at first level can *afford* heavy armor, that's a waste. A cleric mimic, for example, would take simple weapons, light & medium armor, and shields, as their basic four. Or they could focus on spellcasting rather than melee and use the feats for something else.

On 'extra' feats: Each 'extra' feat dictates how many uses or rounds it grants. Extra rage, for example, grants 6 rounds per day, stacking. There's a bit of added complexity when considering someone who has both lay on hands and channel energy, since they can take extra channel to get 4 uses of lay on hands, whereas extra lay on hands only grants 2 uses. But I'm not the one who made it that way, that's in the SRD.

I mention multiclassing because I would like this to be viable for other groups to use, and while I may clip the other classes, I don't want to force that on other GMs. A large part of the risk in multiclassing here is a single-level dip, although that's true of a lot of classes to some degree.

Omnimage

On Magus: Skip the shield prof since they typically need off hand open for spells. Martial weapon profs would be swords and bows (or similar conceptual groupings). Maybe skip simple weapons for now, you probably don't need it and can always pick it up later. I also failed to clarify whether or not to gain the non-class-dependent perks, so feel free to factor those in if needed. Also, Magus doesn't start with BAB+1, so feel free to pick a different third perk. Or suggest a set of suitable perks to help mimic the Magus, since I am looking for suggestions.

Also I chuckled just a bit when you said this was complicated, but only because everyone I know who tried to play a magus (or use one as an NPC) talked about just how complicated that class was for them to understand. Complicated isn't *always* bad. Thank you very much for putting in the effort. ^_^

On progressions: I considered BAB and save progressions, but decided I like this better. Progressions mean I need to separate them into a selectable options set separate from the rest, which would actually make the class more complicated rather than less. It also means limiting flexibility after first level.

On spellcasting: Yes, I decided to make the gestalt class cast like a sorcerer, not a wizard. I suppose another option would be a hybrid caster (spellbook, memorize to spells known each day, use spell slots like a sorcerer). Most examples of this method that I've seen have been dramatically nerfed on spells per day. (I actually like the Magister from Arcana Evolved.) Maybe spellbooks would be a good perk for the first level single-choice option list. Keep in mind that, with the list of available spells including every published spell for every class, there's a lot of flexibility here already.

Other

This class can get a LOT of feats if it favors them over the other class perks, because feat-based classes need that many to mimic. Stacking feats come into play for a lot of builds, such as Fleet to mimic barbarian or monk speed.

I forgot to mention, or decide, what ability score to use for spellcasting. Probably CHA, since this score gets neglected on other features, and seems to be a go-to for spontaneous casters. Or I could make this a player's choice, letting them min-max. Opinions here would be welcome.

One thing I didn't consider are favored class perks. Granted, as a non-published class, no races get 'special' perks like extra known spells, so it's either 1 hitpoint or one skill point.

Another thing I've been on the fence about is the all-class level-dependent perks. (Feat every odd level, ability boost every 4th level, etc.) I guess it's fair to assume that the PCs get those in addition to anything listed here. At first level that means a free feat, plus optional perks like character traits.

Adding another feature to the 1st level 1 choice list.

AT FIRST LEVEL SELECT AND GAIN 1 OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Evasion (becomes improved evasion at level 8+)
¤ Uncanny Dodge (includes improved at level 8+)
¤ Trapfinding class feature
¤ Channel energy class feature (1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not grant uses/day)
¤ Unarmed Impact (increase die of unarmed strike by one creature size per 4 BAB rounded up, does not stack with monk improved unarmed strike)
¤ 3 feats

Also, sneak attack class feature replaces and does not stack with Rogue class feature.

I ran a gestalt-style campaign using house rules a few years ago, but had to stop because family problems came up that consumed all my personal time. Really regret not fully playtesting the house rules. I had a whole system worked out to replace classes & levels entirely with direct XP costs for advancements, perks, and class features.

A couple days ago, I decided to see if I could build a decent Gestalt class. The goal is to make something that would be roughly balanced with existing classes, and allow the versatility to replace those classes. If I ran a campaign with it, then all the PCs would use it (i.e. it would replace all existing core/base classes), but I still want it to balance power-wise with the existing core/base classes.

Here is what I built today. While I think it is balanced at first glance, I haven't play tested it. I would like opinions on the class as written, as well as suggestions for text clarification, added options, or adjustments that would improve balance or robustness.

---------------------------

AT FIRST LEVEL GAIN ALL OF THE FOLLOWING IN ANY ORDER:
¤ Base attack bonus (BAB) = 0
¤ Hitpoints = CON score (total score, not modifier)
¤ Gain 4 feats
¤ 2 saves gain +2 bonus, third save is +0
¤ Select 6 preferred skills (gain class skill bonus in each selected skill)
¤ Skill ranks = 1/2 INT score (total score, not modifier, rounded down)
¤ One common language (spoken & written) plus racial language if applicable

AT FIRST LEVEL SELECT AND GAIN 3 OF THE FOLLOWING IN ANY ORDER:
¤ Base attack bonus (BAB) increase by +1
¤ 2 spell slots (1st spell tier)
¤ 6 spells known (any spell tier, including cantrips/orisons)
¤ Lay on hands class feature (choose positive or negative energy, 1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not grant uses/day)
¤ Sneak attack class feature (+1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up)
¤ Rage class feature (does not grant rounds/day)
¤ Rogue talent class feature (does not grant a talent)
¤ 3 additional preferred skills
¤ 2 feats
¤ 8 skill ranks

AT FIRST LEVEL SELECT AND GAIN 1 OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Evasion (becomes improved evasion at level 8+)
¤ Uncanny Dodge (includes improved at level 8+)
¤ Trapfinding class feature
¤ Channel energy class feature (1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not grant uses/day)
¤ 3 feats

AT EACH LEVEL ABOVE FIRST GAIN ALL OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Hitpoints increase by 5 + CON modifier
¤ 2 saves gain +1 bonus
¤ Add skill ranks = 2 + INT modifier

AT EACH LEVEL ABOVE FIRST SELECT AND GAIN 3 OF THE FOLLOWING IN ANY ORDER:
¤ Base attack bonus increase by +1
¤ 2 spell slot in next higher tier (must have 5+ slots in highest current tier to qualify)
¤ 2 spell slots in highest existing tier (1st tier if no spell slots possessed)
¤ 3 spells known (any spell tier, including cantrips/orisons)
¤ 1 feat
¤ Add 6 skill ranks

AT LEVEL 8 AND AT LEVEL 15, SELECT AND GAIN 1 OF THE FOLLOWING:
¤ Uncanny dodge with improved uncanny dodge
¤ Trapfinding class feature
¤ Advanced rogue talents class feature (does not include a talent)
¤ Lay on hands class feature (positive or negative energy, 1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not grant uses/day)
¤ Mercy class feature (includes 1 mercy, must have lay on hands class feature to qualify)
¤ Channel energy class feature (1d6 per 2 BAB rounded up, does not grant uses/day)

FEAT CHANGES
¤ Simple weapon proficiency grants all simple weapons
¤ Martial weapon proficiency grants a group of similar simple & martial weapons
¤ Ignore feat prerequisites that specify membership in a class.
¤ Class feature prerequisites still apply.
¤ Replace class level prerequisites with character level.

SPELLS AND SPELL TIERS
¤ All spells are available, regardless of whether they are considered arcane or divine.
¤ There is no tier cap on spell slots.
¤ Feats that grant extra spell slots per day (if any such feats exist) are not permitted.
¤ The spell tier for any spell is determined by the lowest-numbered option applicable from the list below.
{1} If a spell is available to one or more full caster classes (classes that gain up to 9th level spells), use the lowest level that any of those classes could gain the spell as its spell tier.
{2} If a spell is available only to mid casters (classes that gain up to 6th level spells), use 1.5 times the lowest level that any of those classes could gain the spell, rounded up, as its spell tier.
{3} If a spell is available only to auxiliary casters (classes that gain up to 3rd or 4th level spells), use twice the lowest level that any of those classes could gain the spell as its spell tier.

OTHER NOTES
¤ This class does not gain weapon or armor proficiency by default. These must be gained using feats.
¤ The decision to exclude familiars/companions/bonds is intentional.
¤ Some features do not grant uses per day by default. Use feats to gain 'extra' uses/day.
¤ Any option may only be selected once (per level) for each time it is listed.
¤ If multiclassing, discard all weapon/armor/shield proficiencies gained from other classes, or reduce initial feat allotment from this class by the number of feats needed to acquire those proficiencies.

Yaba wrote:

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

Khudzlin wrote:

Yaba wrote:

Some liberties do need to be taken when converting a cone-shaped spell from square to hex.

Out of curiosity, how do you do it?

Pick one hex adjacent to the caster, draw out two lines at a 60 degree angle starting from that hex, fill it in.

The cone starts at either a corner or an edge of the caster's hex. This is accurate when starting at a corner. When starting at an edge, start with a single hex. Advance the cone forward, then outward, then forward, then outward, repeat. Demo Image

Ah, so you make the cones 60° instead of 90°.

Typically, yes. A 90° cone would be difficult to aim in hexes, and a 120° cone seems like it would make damage spells cover a bit too much area.

Thinking about it, the total area covered would be more comparable to a square grid if starting the cone from the back of the caster's hex, which would count as a zero-foot range space. For obvious reasons the caster would not be struck by his/her own cone effect.
Demo Image

I wish for alignments to be clearly and only described along the 2 axes with no further descriptions of full alignments that confuse things even further

So that Lawful Good = Lawful + Good rather than its own thing

Or go the reverse route and remove alignment as a game mechanic. There are plenty of alternatives if one wants a spell or effect to target a specific subset of creatures. (Example: rather than bane vs evil outsiders, use bane vs devils, or maybe just bane vs outsiders.)

I would suggest breaking down Protection from Alignment spells into more practical effects anyway. (Example: Protection from Possession and Mental Control, Protection from Summoned Creatures, and leave the numerical bonuses for other spells.)

Personally, I usually replace Good vs Evil with Life vs Death. A creature that would be 'good' is a creature that favors preservation of life. A creature that would be 'evil' is a creature that favors extinction of life, or killing without need. Any other interpretations just seem extraneous. But that's my personal opinion. I do feel it explains why a mindless undead would be labeled 'evil' when a mindless anything else is 'neutral'.

Khudzlin wrote:

Yaba wrote:

Some liberties do need to be taken when converting a cone-shaped spell from square to hex.

Out of curiosity, how do you do it?

Pick one hex adjacent to the caster, draw out two lines at a 60 degree angle starting from that hex, fill it in.

The cone starts at either a corner or an edge of the caster's hex. This is accurate when starting at a corner.

When starting at an edge, start with a single hex. Advance the cone forward, then outward, then forward, then outward, repeat.

Demo Image

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

Switch to hex grids so we can ditch the 5-10-5-10 diagonals

Isn't that already an option in the base game?

It is. I only use hex grids. Converting square-based dungeons to hex is pretty easy once you get used to it. Hexes also offer a more believable aesthetic for natural terrains (such as tree placement in forests). Some liberties do need to be taken when converting a cone-shaped spell from square to hex.

Still, for people who like square grids (and humans, unlike bees, do tend to build square structures), it's more practical to include the square-grid rules (such as 5/10 diagonals) than to leave them out and make players guess.

I would really like to have a single word carry a single meaning. In particular, overuse of the word "level" adds a layer of difficulty when explaining certain core aspects of the game to new players. I have seen too many new players struggle with the difference between "spell level" and "caster level", for example.

"I'm a fifth level wizard, it's a fifth level spell, so why can't I cast it?"

It's the sort of problem that can be solved by judicious application of a thesaurus.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

james014Aura wrote:

Rereading some stuff: I sincerely hope skill proficiencies are not at all like they are in 5e, where all it does is prevent skill customization.

Not at all. You get to pick how you gain the levels of proficiency with your skills. It's your choice.

Do wait...

Are we leveling our skills???
My mind was just blown, in the best way possible!

I have a general request for the new edition. Maybe this has already been addressed, maybe not.

Would it be possible to take a thesaurus to the word 'LEVEL'? One of my gripes for decades has been overuse of that single word. Whenever I run or play in a game with novice players, they are constantly confused by "spell level" vs "caster level", expecting a 3rd level wizard to cast 3rd level spells. Then there's the old OotS joke about going down a dungeon level and up a character level. And that's just a couple prominent examples. The word is just so heavily used that it can be hard to tell one meaning from another.

In my own campaigns I started renaming "spell level" to "spell tier" just to reduce confusion, only that left me explaining the change every time my players went back to the rulebooks and saw "spell level". I also noticed that 'tier' is used in PF Society to indicate character level intervals for adventures, so that's one less available alternative term to use in the rulebooks themselves.

Dragonborn3 wrote:

A two-handed weapon weilded in one hand with no special ability, like Jotungrip, would be a one-handed improvised weapon, wouldn't it?

No. it would be something too big to use as a one handed weapon

I could see it. Big, clumsy, hard to leverage, can't build enough momentum for a clean strike, but a person can wield a 10-ft steel pipe on one arm. I tried it once. (Home Depot, empty isle, thing weighed at least 30 lbs.) Dealing d6 with a -4 attack penalty would be fair. As a GM, I'd allow it.

I think the stages outlined below provide a reasonable explanation for the Normal wording of the Thunder & Fang feat.

Stage 0: In the absence of a feat and/or class ability and/or race ability stating otherwise, a two-handed weapon cannot be wielded in one hand. (Ref: FAQ)
Stage 1: One or more feats and/or class/race features either currently exist or may exist in the future, which allow wielding of a two-handed weapon in one hand. (Example: Titan Mauler)
Stage 2: The aforementioned class/race features and/or feats may or may not include numeric penalties.
Stage 3: The aforementioned possible penalties are overridden by the Thunder and Fang feat when/where applicable.

Unless the ability text specifically says that you can change shape multiple times with a single use of the ability, each new assumed form requires another use of the ability. As far as needing to change back to natural form between assumed forms, I agree that it is not required. As long as the ability to assume forms comes from a class feature, the option to do so remains available regardless of the character's current form. Beyond that, the behavior would comply with standard rules for resolving the effects of two similar (or identical) non-stacking spells cast on the same target.

Merfolk technically do have a "feet" magic item slot, even though they have a tail instead of a foot. The caveat is that the item filling that slot must fit a tail fin, rather than feet. If the merfolk does obtain feet that can wear boots, it can then wear boots to fill the magic items slot.

It's the same family of logic that says you have two ring slots, regardless of how many fingers (or toes) you have. In this case it would be like a piercing ring (on an ear, nose, or less child-friendly location) occupying a ring slot.

I've always been under the impression that a creature with regeneration can still be killed by reducing its constitution to zero (using poisons for example), by hitting it with enough level drain to equal its hit dice, or basically by any means that would kill a creature without affecting its hitpoints.

That FAQ was about PC's with two arms as I mentioned before. It doesn't contradict anything concerning creatures with more than 2 hands.

Two-weapon fighting combat entry

Because {a} it's a rule, not a faq (and appears to be the only published rule on the subject, aside from the TWF & MWF feats), and {b} it doesn't actually say that it's exclusive to creatures with two hands. We just make that assumption. It's a logical assumption to make based on the use of the singular "off hand" in the first sentence, but it has certainly not been proven. All we can prove is that monsters in the Bestiary books don't follow this limitation of one extra off-hand attack.

We can have opinions. We can agree on those opinions. But when someone else disagrees with those opinions, we can't prove them wrong, and they can't prove us wrong, and whoever asked the question walks away with "it's a grey area". That's what FAQs are for.

If this issue was going to be officially answered, it would have happened a long time ago. The only way forward is to agree with your group how you will handle it at your table.

Sad truth. Still, at least I tried. I would try harder, but it's hard to stay motivated when all I get are criticisms for trying. Thanks for weighing in. My vote has been cast. Guess I should take your advice and let the matter drop.

Hugo Rune wrote:

So it's been another couple of weeks and we have another 10 new threads, 203 Posts and 21 FAQs. This brings the running total to 3,265 Posts and 150 FAQs.

Does having extra arms grant extra off hand attacks. +4 Posts +20FAQs (now 269 Posts and 28 FAQs)

This is basically what I was trying to ask, with less specificity. I'll add my FAQ request to the pile. Thanks.

Graystone: Just to be clear, I have no intention of editing the OP. In fact, I can't edit the OP. It locked less than an hour after I posted it. If I do get around to an elaborate breakdown & explanation, it'll be inline with the rest of this conversation, which has (unfortunately) been largely dominated by a discussion of what, if anything, I should have done differently, rather than of the actual question and people's opinions thereof. On another note, if you make a post asking the question you think I should have asked, the way you think I should have asked it, I'd be happy to flag it for FAQ request.

Wraithstrike: The rules for fighting with multiple weapons, as seen in the Combat entry (linked in a previous post in this discussion) dictate exactly one off-hand attack, which runs counter to numerous examples of monsters with multiple off-hands and a corresponding number of off-hand attacks. The two-weapon fighting feat is in a PC-oriented book, the multiweapon fighting feat is in a monster-oriented book, and there's very little reason (although not NO reason) why the two couldn't be combined into one feat, unless the intention was to keep PC rules and monster rules separate. And as far as I can tell, there are no published rules at all for the apparently-standard methodology used for off-hand attacks in monster stat blocks. Plus for some reason, the publishers opted not to include an attack option for four weapons in the Kasatha Monk stat block (at -1/-1/-1/-1 since all hands are primary and it doesn't have a TWF or MWF feat).

Looks like the wall of text is turning into a piecemeal effort on my part, despite my intentions. It honestly would've made more sense if I could find time to organize the whole thing, but since it looks like it may be a moot point, oh well.

How the FAQ System Works

However, it is not intended to provide answers to niche, situational questions that are uncommonly found at the gaming table.

This is one reason I am providing a question that covers a broader range of situations, rather than one "niche" situation (dual wielding two-handed weapons in four hands).

Wraithstrike: I was hoping to wait for the wall of text, but here is the root component of my original question.
Do PCs and monsters follow the same rules for making off-hand weapon attacks?
The answer is that I have been unable to find an official answer, despite the so-called consensus that I have observed is definitely not a consensus. (The fact that I agree with your opinion is not relevant.) I have seen valid arguments for both yes and no answers. I will save the elaboration on this point for the wall of text, unless someone can find an official rule or ruling to answer this question.

• My original question is a single sentence, with optional elaboration in parentheses, all of which I marked in bold text. The question itself is 20-22 words, depending on whether "or less" is included. All the rest is a combination of suggested answers (each of which someone other than me has insisted to be accurate, and none of which I have managed to sufficiently disprove) out-of-question clarification in case it's needed, and explanation of why I'm asking the question.
  
• Maybe I am mistaken, but it appears to me that people do not understand why I am asking the question, and/or why I am asking this exact question. Which means I did not sufficiently elaborate my reasoning. Which is why I want to make a "wall of text" post, and hope that the people for whom it matters will at least scan through it. I am aware that large blocks of text may be a deterrent, but if I organize it correctly, and bold the specific component questions to break up the wall into digestable chunks, that should help.
  
• Contrary to the statements made by people who think there exists some sort of actual consensus on the answer to my question posted in this topic, there is not a sufficient consensus to prevent it from consistently becoming an argument with no consensus. I can, in fact, attest that I was recently left to argue viewpoint {C} alone against someone who firmly believed viewpoint {A}.
  
• Perhaps part of the confusion here is that I recently asked a different but related question as a Devil's Advocate, and that question was sufficiently answered by links supplied to existing rules & rulings.

toastedamphibian wrote:

I don't recal any FAQs addressing 1 handed characters, got a link?

Why is one needed?

toastedamphibian wrote:

Sure, probably, maybe. Rules for any of that?

Yep, sure do.

The 'hands of effort' and 'TWF with unarmed attacks' FAQ cover TWF.

Sounds like some confusion, as it could easily sound like you're sending him/her looking for a "hands of effort" FAQ entry. To be fair, it's a decent descriptor for a combination of the Two-weapon fighting combat entry with the armor spikes and unarmed strike FAQ entries. It does make certain assumptions, and is not in itself either a FAQ or rule, but it's a decent name/descriptor, which explains why you use it. (I ran a forum search for "hands of effort", so I know other people use the same descriptor, but a search of the other sections of the site comes up empty.)

Yaba may be new.

Not new to the forum. Definitely not new to the system. But this is my first time requesting a FAQ. I have noticed one important trend: the most dominant factor in whether something gets FAQ'd is how many people flag a single post for FAQ. Requests have been for FAQ clarification on every variant of this topic, including exactly the sort of narrow focus that you and Wraithstrike suggest, but since no single post ever gets more than a couple FAQ flags, nothing happens. I went back to a topic from 2013 to support a few posts that were already flagged for FAQ, in case that helps and this discussion doesn't.

If I can find the time, I'll write up a thorough breakdown of my original question into several interconnected branching subquestions, with suggested answers and as much supporting information as I can manage. The breakdown won't be for a FAQ, although it could be used to formulate one (or several). Instead the main goal will be to demonstrate why the question I originally posted merits a FAQ response.
But that's only if I can find the time, because I want it to be thorough, logical, organized, and as unbiased as I can make it, with framework for reasonable follow-up discussion.

I'm looking over wraithstrike's answers and I think I agree with everything he said. I'm unsure what point the walls of questions have. If you make an single point it's easier to reply to and easier to get a FAQ for. Having 8 questions makes it 8 times harder to work with. All the "specific cases" are mostly just muddying the waters. It's not really that complicated as it boils down to pretty much what my last post was.

I posted eight examples to be addressed by one question and one ruling. Why? Because Wraithstrike said I needed to present a specific case to get an answer, but all eight cases (and may more) can be answered by a single response of 1-2 sentences... or by picking any one of the nine answers already supplied.

Also we have stated that there is no single ruling already. That is one reason why the kasatha has been debated several times when people try to combine to two weapon fight with 2 two-handed weapons or when they try to combine a two-handed weapon with light weapons for the purpose of two-weapon fighting.

The only part of that which can't be addressed by a single ruling can be answered by an entirely different question: can a weapon be wielded in two off hands?

I am not asking that question. I have an opinion on it, but I am not asking it. My opinion is that I would expect multiple two-handed weapons to get in each others' way, unless they are piercing weapons, in which case it's more a question of damage. If one assumes that the number of off-hand attacks is based on the number of hands (which I agree with, BTW, but not everyone does), then each two-handed weapon occupies two hands, reducing the available number of off-hand attacks by one per two-handed weapon. I would not make any judgements regarding application of strength to damage. I am perfectly willing to accept that others may disagree with this opinion. If someone wants to request a FAQ response on multiple two-handed weapons, that's fine. But they will need the opening question of this FAQ request answered first.

As far as my own question, here is how I would answer the eight cases.

• C1 = 5
• C2 = 1
• C3 = 3
• C4 = 3
• C5 = 2
• C6 = 3
• C7 = 3
• C8 = 4

My opinion in this regard is based on wording found in the Multiweapon Fighting feat, as well as monster examples such as the Marilith, the Upasunda Asura, the Four-Armed Mudra Skeleton, and the High Girallon. All of which were mentioned by blackbloodtroll back in 2013.

Actually, the Upasunda appears to answer by example the question of a weapon in two off hands (the spear). It still only wields one two-handed weapon, since its main hand holds a longsword.

Yaba wrote:

CALLBACK

This needs a FAQ. Not sure if we should try wording it here or just go back to the thread I linked and tag some posts there for FAQ.

No FAQ needed. The answer is NO.

The OP question was answered by four posts in. Then someone suggested not using flurry. The subsequent ~200 posts were an argument about that topic. And apparently the posters (back in 2013) had seen the same argument repeatedly, always with no resolution and no FAQ response.

This thread took a little longer to shift to the topic of off-hand attacks vs number of hands, as I needed someone to prove first that the cap was tied to hands, not armed body parts (or in the case of unarmed strikes, all body parts). However, once again, the question of off-hand attacks for multi-handed beings remains unresolved, with three distinctly different answers being insisted upon as correct by their respective supporters, and several people refusing to address the scenario of extra arms at all.

This thread was started because of another topic about a multi-handed eidolon. The question of off-hand attacks wasn't resolved there either. The OP of both threads appears to have departed after accepting the answer, "It's a grey area. Ask your GM."

So I made a thread SPECIFICALLY asking about off-hand attacks for PCs (or eidolons) with more (or less) than two arms.

I hope this explains why a FAQ is needed.

I got locked out of editing while typing up specific examples. So fine. Adding them as a separate reply.

This question does not take into account the numeric penalties on attack rolls, which are defined in the Two-Weapon and Multiweapon Fighting feats. This question does not include extra attacks gained from feats. This question does not include attacks made with the primary hand (which depend on BAB).
_____________________

EDIT: Adding specific cases to be addressed. I am looking for a single ruling which addresses all cases, if possible. For the purpose of these examples, anyone wielding a weapon has proficiency with it.

{CASE 1} An eidolon has 6 hands (3 limb mutations) and no natural weapons. It has a light weapon in each hand. How many off-hand attacks can it make?

{CASE 2} A human loses an arm at the shoulder, then heals. He only has one arm, and is wearing boot blades. How many off-hand attacks can he make?

{CASE 3} A kasatha barbarian has a light weapon in each hand. How many off-hand attacks can he make?

{CASE 4} A human uses ALTER SELF to take the form of a kasatha. He picks up extra weapons, so that has a light weapon in each hand. How many attacks can he make?

{CASE 5} A kasatha has a greatsword in his main hand and one other hand. His other two hands have light weapons, and he is wearing boot blades. How many off-hand attacks can he make?

{CASE 6} An eidolon has 2 normal hands, 2 clawed hands, 2 clawed feet, and 2 normal feet. It wields a light weapon in each of the four hands, opting not to use those claws. How many off-hand attacks can it make?

{CASE 7} A kasatha rogue takes the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. He has no weapons in hand, and makes an unarmed strike with the main hand. How many off-hand unarmed strikes can he make?

{CASE 8} An eidolon has six arms. It wields a greataxe, two short swords, and two daggers, and has no natural attacks. How many off-hand attacks can it make?

I started a new thread as a FAQ request.

Maximum number of off-hand attacks for beings with more or less than two prehensile limbs and no defining text in the source of said extra or missing limbs.

I hope people will support this FAQ request.