Eye, Veiled


Rules Questions


One of my players lost their sight after drawing the 3 of spades from the Harrow Deck of Many Things (which can't be cured by any effect short of a miracle or wish). The player is wondering if he can buy a Veiled Eye to gain the benefits of the item so his character is not *completely* blind. My question is, should this item work? From the description of the item, I'm not sure if the character needed to be wearing the item *prior* to going blind to gain its benefits in the last part of the description.
-Thanks!

Eye, Veiled: This banded agate attaches itself to its wearer’s forehead and then, blinking and focusing, begins to act as an additional eye. When worn, the veiled eye has the same vision as the wearer (such as low-light vision, darkvision 60 ft., or the oracle’s clouded vision curse). It grants the wearer no particular advantages so long as his original eyes continue to function normally. However, should his original eyes stop working, whether because of the wearer becoming blinded or even his own decision to close them, he can see through the veiled eye instead. When the wearer is using the veiled eye as his only vision source, he takes a —2 penalty on ranged attack rolls but gains a +2 insight bonus on saves against gaze attacks.


He clearly needs something or he's going to be non-functional as a PC... So as DM, I would let it work (unless you have a better in-plot fix planned, of course).

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I would allow it. The purpose of this eye is literally to replace vision from his other eyes and would serve no cause otherwise.


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Quote:
When worn, the veiled eye has the same vision as the wearer (such as low-light vision, darkvision 60 ft., or the oracle’s clouded vision curse).

This line worries me. If he had lost his eyes, regeneration would fix it. If he had mundane blindness, cure blindness would fix it. So it sounds like this is instead a permanent magical condition, akin to the Oracle curse of clouded vision, but imposing total blindness.

If the PC in question is not by nature a long-range combatant (such as an archer or AoE damage wizard), I would instead advise use of an item that grants a vision alternative. The most desirable option would be blindsight to a fixed range, possibly with a less precise vision alternative out to a greater fixed range. Keep in mind that blindsight is a very valuable perk. Other vision alternatives include (but are not limited to) blindsense, tremorsense, scent, and lifesense (see Oracle of life). {Example: Blindsight to 5 ft with blindsense to 30 ft}

If the PC used a spellbook, they will need to have someone help them transcribe it into braille.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Yaba wrote:
If he had mundane blindness, cure blindness would fix it. So it sounds like this is instead a permanent magical condition, akin to the Oracle curse of clouded vision, but imposing total blindness.

It is an artifact effect that requires specific magic to cure. I think it is pretty obvious that if the character had been wearing this when he drew the card 'should his original eyes stop working, whether because of the wearer becoming blinded or even his own decision to close them, he can see through the veiled eye instead' would apply and he could see with the veiled eye.

Personally, I read the text as just assuming the person had vision when it was put on, and not considering the possibilities of what would happen if they didn't, so I would let it work. I probably wouldn't let it work for a naturally blind type of creature though.


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Honestly this is just a reason why you shouldn't have allowed a Deck of Many Things into your campaign in the first place.

I know it sounds harsh, but it's really just not an appropriate item to have in a campaign unless it's a one shot or characters are prepared to be permanently killed/destroyed/disabled. And players often think they're "ready" until something bad happens.

Honestly, I would simply tell your players "I shouldn't have let this in the campaign in the first place". You can give the team two options, either everyone gives up whatever benefits and penalties and retcon the use of the Deck of Many Things and consider this a lesson learned. Otherwise, I would say everything stands as it is, and not make any special exceptions for the player (and giving him an artifact is making an exception).

The Deck of Many Things is dangerous. When a GM introduces one, it is either ignored or destroys a campaign, in my experience.


Characters are OK with the decks because invariably, the GM usually has to cave, and allow them to avoid/get past the negative effects if they want to continue playing.

So basically, they only really get good things, and all the bad stuff eventually gets hand-waved away, or becomes level-appropriate plot hooks to more xp and still eventually goes away.

I agree with Claxon. Either they have to live with the negative effects (even if it means no more PC), or you should never allow the deck in the campaign.


Claxon wrote:

Honestly this is just a reason why you shouldn't have allowed a Deck of Many Things into your campaign in the first place.

I know it sounds harsh, but it's really just not an appropriate item to have in a campaign unless it's a one shot or characters are prepared to be permanently killed/destroyed/disabled. And players often think they're "ready" until something bad happens.

Honestly, I would simply tell your players "I shouldn't have let this in the campaign in the first place". You can give the team two options, either everyone gives up whatever benefits and penalties and retcon the use of the Deck of Many Things and consider this a lesson learned. Otherwise, I would say everything stands as it is, and not make any special exceptions for the player (and giving him an artifact is making an exception).

The Deck of Many Things is dangerous. When a GM introduces one, it is either ignored or destroys a campaign, in my experience.

AFAICT, ArcXile didn't mention that their table had any particular problem with the deck's campaign-altering properties, so it seems appropriate to let them decide for themselves whether that's a problem.


*deleted--I fell into the "talk about whether deck of many things is badwrongfun instead of about the OP's question" trap*


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Found a couple reasonably priced sources of vision alternatives. Fungal eyes are available in the Alchemy Manual and cost 18k GP for 30 foot blindsight. Sensing armor is available in the Advanced Class Guide, and starts at 16k GP for 5 foot blindsight and 60 foot blindsense.
https://aonprd.com/FungalGrafts.aspx
https://aonprd.com/MagicArmorDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Sensing


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Here's a couple questions I don't see in this discussion yet. What is the blinded character's primary class? And what level is the party on average?

Or are we reading the wrong, meaning you got your hands on an actual magic artifact in real life, and rather than reporting it to the press or selling it to the nearest billionaire you decided to make the players in your game draw from it?


blahpers wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Honestly this is just a reason why you shouldn't have allowed a Deck of Many Things into your campaign in the first place.

I know it sounds harsh, but it's really just not an appropriate item to have in a campaign unless it's a one shot or characters are prepared to be permanently killed/destroyed/disabled. And players often think they're "ready" until something bad happens.

Honestly, I would simply tell your players "I shouldn't have let this in the campaign in the first place". You can give the team two options, either everyone gives up whatever benefits and penalties and retcon the use of the Deck of Many Things and consider this a lesson learned. Otherwise, I would say everything stands as it is, and not make any special exceptions for the player (and giving him an artifact is making an exception).

The Deck of Many Things is dangerous. When a GM introduces one, it is either ignored or destroys a campaign, in my experience.

AFAICT, ArcXile didn't mention that their table had any particular problem with the deck's campaign-altering properties, so it seems appropriate to let them decide for themselves whether that's a problem.

I mean, I interjected my opinion on the subject, but you will note that my suggestion was to let the players to decide to either retconn the whole thing, or make the player deal with the consequences and not give them anything special to deal with it.


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I probably wouldn't allow it, due to the worry Yaba already raised. Being blinded by the Deck seems to be quite similar to an oracle partially blinded with clouded vision, and that handicap is copied by the Eye, so I think this would be too. Admittedly, the oracle's curse is even harder to remove than the Deck's, so it's not an open-and-shut case.

BTW: Claxon, I don't believe anything special is being given to the player. They're buying a Veiled Eye, a perfectly normal wondrous item, sells for 12,000 gp on the open market.


I thought it was an artifact for some reason, if the player is going to spend some cash to get rid of their problem then yeah, no problem.


Yaba wrote:

Here's a couple questions I don't see in this discussion yet. What is the blinded character's primary class? And what level is the party on average?

Or are we reading the wrong, meaning you got your hands on an actual magic artifact in real life, and rather than reporting it to the press or selling it to the nearest billionaire you decided to make the players in your game draw from it?

Ahahaha of course I've been found out! Keep this secret for me will ya? ;)

Sorry I hadn't gotten back to this thread! I for some reason assumed nobody replied until I checked it just tonight, lol.
The PC in question is a level 10 wizard that has predominantly been using single-target ranged spells in combat.

After reading everyone's comments I think there are good points all around. It seems there is about a 50/50 split. I am probably falling into the category of "dampening the impact" of negative effects drawn from the deck, but this particular group hasn't abused the deck (and don't seem to plan on doing so) so I don't think we will just reverse the whole thing as if it didn't happen. That being said, the item does come with a -2 penalty which will impact the wizard. The player has also gone out of their way to look up reasonable solutions (and *don't expect* me to let them work) so it's not without "out of character" impact either.

Still, I can't un-see the description of the item as written, like Yaba and others say, I don't think it should work. So, I'm coming up with a solution that's in-between, like a custom item or a vision alternative.

And thank you all for your input!


I'd allow it to work because otherwise it would be easy to argue that if the veiled eye was taken off after being blinded and then put back on it wouldn't work. (And having to wear something 24/7 seems like a terrible idea).

Grand Lodge

If it’s a 10th level wizard they’re in luck. They can just prepare a few Echolocation spells for the day. I know the player would certainly be making more of a fuss (or at least more fervently looking for a solution) if there were no in-class solutions, like a ranged fighter.

I’m not exactly sure if this works but alter self (and other polymorph effects) grants the player all the senses of the form they take too. I’m just fuzzy on the rules of curses and how temporary polymorph effects are affected by said curse.


If the player likes his/her wizard but would be amenable to changing out his spell options, consider pairing a braille spell book (a copy of his own or one that he finds) with either an Eastern Star Ioun Stone (comprehend languages continuous) or an intelligence-boosting item that grants braille as a known language. He can then learn braille as a language next time he gains a rank in the linguistics skill, since someone who depends on knowing the language for his career path would gain the benefit of constant exposure.

Down the road, you could even use braille as a plot hook, with the party coming across things like a spiked pit trap with braille patterns. Give the wizard (and anyone else who bothers to learn braille) a linguistics check to notice the pattern. For added amusement, mix in illusory spikes with the real ones to foil the pattern for sighted creatures, and if you are feeling generous, have the braille spikes spell out hints or even spell descriptions (which the wizard can copy into his braille spell book).

Remember that someone who exclusively uses blindsight is effectively immune to visual illusions and gaze attacks. Fire, electricity, and incorporeal creatures are probably invisible to them. They can also 'see' around (but not through) physical barriers, and can see force effects as if they were physical objects.


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So far, these have been suggested:
Veiled Eye, 12,000 gp, headband slot.
Sensing Armor, +3 bonus
Fungal Eyes, 18,000 gp, eyes slot

But there is a much cheaper option:
Homunculus, 2,050 gp, independent upgradable creature.
It has a telepathic link showing you all it sees and hears.

The Echolocation spell, while great, is a 5t level wizard spell that lasts 10 minutes per level.

Another option is a Aspect Mask (6,500 gp, head slot). Three times a day gain the benefit of the Hunter's Animal Focus. The Bat aspect gives darkvision (and later blindsense), and does not say you need eyes. The Wolf aspect gives scent 10' (and later 20' and 30').

/cevah


Homunculus would be great, but there's a catch. He has to craft it himself. This means he needs to have the Craft Construct feat. If he does happen to already have that feat, he needs to spend at least 2 days crafting it, and that's assuming he can make the crafting DC. He may also need to hire help with the crafting process, since he can't see his spellbook in the interim to prepare spells.

The aspect mask seems like it would cover him in combat, but not as effectively as the more expensive options, and as a solo solution it means he's still fully blind most of the time. Also the darkvision is useless for him, so bat aspect would be pointless until level 15.


With fast crafting, he only needs a single day. All for a +5 DC.

However, he doesn't need to be the crafter. He only needs to supply the blood needed for the construct. Finding someone to craft it, is a different problem, but if anyone in his party can do it, then he'll be fine.

ArcXile wrote:
The PC in question is a level 10 wizard that has predominantly been using single-target ranged spells in combat.
ArcXile wrote:
So, I'm coming up with a solution that's in-between, like a custom item or a vision alternative.

At 10th level, they should have the resources to get a Homunculus, and with a GM willing to help them out, finding a crafter won't be difficult either.

/cevah

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