Sharpening a shield's edges


Rules Questions


The combat scabbard sharpened has a threat range of 18-20/x2, so if I sharpen the edges of my shield it should be the same, right? What do you think?

Dark Archive

no. you're not slashing with a shield, hence shield bash

also if that worked then i could sharpen a stick to crit on 18?


Name Violation wrote:

no. you're not slashing with a shield, hence shield bash

also if that worked then i could sharpen a stick to crit on 18?

Well thats if you bash with the shield which isnt the edge of the shield, if you throw the shield which will hit with the edge, then thats not a bash. And why couldnt you slash with a shield?

Dark Archive

well they are listed as doing bludgeoning damage so unless you can slash with bludgeoning damage you cant slash with it. even if you throw it. it'd be like sharpening a club. it aint gonna do ya anything.


Name Violation wrote:
well they are listed as doing bludgeoning damage so unless you can slash with bludgeoning damage you cant slash with it. even if you throw it. it'd be like sharpening a club. it aint gonna do ya anything.

Well, look in the Adv Armory, they just added a stake that you can throw that does piercing damage.


In Mongoose's Ultimate Equipment Guide 2, Adroit's Arms and Armour chapter, there is a section on slashing shields.

Slashing Shields:

These are normal steel shields (the technology cannot be applied to wooden ones), whose edges have been sharpened to the point of functioning as slashing weapons. A slashing shield looks as a typical medium or heavy steel shield, its slashing quality being in fact unnoticeable by a casual observer. A Search check (DC 15) or Spot check (DC 20) reveals the shield’s sharpened edges. A normal shield can be turned into a slashing shield by a process costing 50 gold pieces.

[...]

Slashing shields can be used as weapons, just like common shields; however, a slashing shield deals considerably more damage than a shield bash attack, even with a spiked shield. Spikes added to a slashing shield do not increase its damage at all; in fact they may hamper its usefulness as a thrown weapon in the case of a light shield. As with normal shields, making an attack with a slashing shield negates the shield’s bonus to Armour Class for that round. A slashing shield never allows the wearer to carry an item on the same hand. Any character proficient with shield bash attacks is considered proficient with slashing shield attacks.

The process to make a slashing shield removes a considerable percentage of the shield’s bulk, making it much thinner and lighter. A light slashing shield can be used as a thrown weapon with a five-foot range increment.

Light Slashing Shield: 50gp; 6 lb.
- Light Martial Weapon; Dmg 1d4(S)/1d6(M); Critical x3; Range 5 ft.; Slashing
- Light Shield; AC +1; Max Dex —; Check –1; SF 5%; Spd —

Heavy Slashing Shield: 75gp; 15 lb.
- One-Handed Martial Weapon; Dmg 1d6(S)/1d8(M); Critical x3; Slashing
- Heavy Shield; AC +2; Max Dex —; Check –2; SF 15%; Spd —

Not WotC material, obviously, but can be a good start for house rules.

Dark Archive

and piercing with a stake is alot different than slashing with a shield.

Dark Archive

well there ya go. a slashing shield. but i still say sharpening the edges (short of a keen enhancement) shouldn't raise the crit range, otherwise you could argue that works for all weapons and it gets stupid quick


Name Violation wrote:
and piercing with a stake is alot different than slashing with a shield.

How so? You have a big piece of metal strapped to your arm that you swing at someone.


An axe is sharpened too, and it doesn't have an 18-20 threat range. And even when you're "bashing" with a shield, more often than not I'd think you're actually slashing with the edge...it's just not really sharp, but unless you're bullrushing it'd be a lot more effective than smacking with the big flat part.


Louis IX wrote:

In Mongoose's Ultimate Equipment Guide 2, Adroit's Arms and Armour chapter, there is a section on slashing shields.

** spoiler omitted **

Not WotC material, obviously, but can be a good start for house rules.

Thanks for the info.


DrowVampyre wrote:
An axe is sharpened too, and it doesn't have an 18-20 threat range. And even when you're "bashing" with a shield, more often than not I'd think you're actually slashing with the edge...it's just not really sharp, but unless you're bullrushing it'd be a lot more effective than smacking with the big flat part.

It all depends on how your bashing with the shield. Like throwing out your arm using your deltoids, or basically using a punching maneuver hitting with the edge.

Shadow Lodge

I would just take the existing stats for shield spikes and change the damage to slashing and call it done. As long as you keep the damage and crit range the same you can't go wrong.


0gre wrote:
I would just take the existing stats for shield spikes and change the damage to slashing and call it done. As long as you keep the damage and crit range the same you can't go wrong.

+1, this is what I was going to post. I have dont this exact same thing with a character of mine. (2 shield fighter, caused a lot of drama on these boards but I love it, and had someone craft an awesome model for me two, he kicks ass.)

Sovereign Court

I've gotta weigh in with the others, crit range shouldn't change just because the edge is sharpened. Ogre's suggestion is the same thing I'd suggest.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Name Violation wrote:
well there ya go. a slashing shield. but i still say sharpening the edges (short of a keen enhancement) shouldn't raise the crit range, otherwise you could argue that works for all weapons and it gets stupid quick

Sharpening your blade edges doesn't increase crit, it's part of periodic maintennce to keep it from becoming useless.


Vult Wrathblades wrote:
I have dont this exact same thing with a character of mine. (2 shield fighter, caused a lot of drama on these boards but I love it, and had someone craft an awesome model for me two, he kicks ass.)

Interesting. Legit or houseruled? What's the build look like?


Well, when I read a slashing shield, I think about something like this :
[url]http://mistertouch.ifrance.com/image/dw4/cao%20ren%20dw4%20arme4.JPG[/url]

But the widely known round shield wouldn't be that efficient at slashing. To illustrate, when a karate dude uses the side of his hand to break stones, his hand is not slashing... it's just focused bludgeoning.

Same would go for the shield; it wouldn't cut (well, it would leave scratches...) but it certainly wouldn't do it the way a sword can, if you get my meaning.


Krimson wrote:

Well, when I read a slashing shield, I think about something like this :

[url]http://mistertouch.ifrance.com/image/dw4/cao%20ren%20dw4%20arme4.JPG[/url]

But the widely known round shield wouldn't be that efficient at slashing. To illustrate, when a karate dude uses the side of his hand to break stones, his hand is not slashing... it's just focused bludgeoning.

Same would go for the shield; it wouldn't cut (well, it would leave scratches...) but it certainly wouldn't do it the way a sword can, if you get my meaning.

I would have to disagree about a shield not being able to do damage, if it has an sharp edge it is more like a scimitar thats meant to slide of an opponent.

The reason I suggested the Combat scabbard sharpened, because it was a mundane item that is sharpened and its crit range is 18-20/x2.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So can I sharpen my club or mace to increase its threat range?


Wonz wrote:
So can I sharpen my club or mace to increase its threat range?

So why would a sharpened scabbard be 18-20?


Most weapons fit within a certain balance. Generally, If it does lots of damage, it will have a small crit range and multiplier, and no other effects. Smaller damage range, higher crit multiplier with no other effects. You won't find reach/trip/sunder weapons with large damage dice or crit range/multipliers. A shield gives an ac bonus, additional damage would be a secondary effect. Which means to keep it balanced, its damage and crit range should both remain small.

A sharpened scabbard has a high threat because it does squat for damage.

Otherwise, if we could get a weapon with high crit and decent damage, AND an AC bonus, nobody would use any lesser weapon.

Grand Lodge

jyster wrote:
Wonz wrote:
So can I sharpen my club or mace to increase its threat range?
So why would a sharpened scabbard be 18-20?

Because somebody had a brain fart and thought that a scabbard with that crit range was a good idea.


The stats on that scabbard is my biggest problem with the AA. Gonna have to house rule it down, since a edged scabbard should not be closer to a scimitar than a clunky shortsword.


Christopher Vrysen wrote:
The stats on that scabbard is my biggest problem with the AA. Gonna have to house rule it down, since a edged scabbard should not be closer to a scimitar than a clunky shortsword.

Not even counting the fact that it defeats the very purpose of a scabbard, which is to protect the user from the sharp edges of his sword. Seriously...

Dark Archive

Ravenot wrote:


A sharpened scabbard has a high threat because it does squat for damage.

Otherwise, if we could get a weapon with high crit and decent damage, AND an AC bonus, nobody would use any lesser weapon.

actually a combat scabbard deals 1d6 18-20/x2. same stats as a scimatar. which is ridiculous and needs to be killed with fire. its better to leave a short sword in the scabbard than to take it out.

personally i'd nerf it to d6 20x2, MAYBE i could be talked into 1 die smaller than the weapon and critting on 19-20 x2. so a long sword scabbard does short sword damage, and a short sword does dagger damage

but as is sharpened scabbard is so broke

Dark Archive

0gre wrote:
I would just take the existing stats for shield spikes and change the damage to slashing and call it done. As long as you keep the damage and crit range the same you can't go wrong.

This would have been my exact suggestion, if 0gre hadn't beaten me to it.

Keep the cost and weight additions, too. Just sharpening the edges of a shield would be even less effective, IMO, but putting some sharpened blade-edges on it would allow it to be a slashing variation on Shield Spikes.

If someone just sharpened the edges of a mundane metal shield not built for this sort of use, I'd put the damage one size-category lower (1d4 turns to 1d3) for shield spikes, and have the sharpened shield only inflict damage once, before the 'sharpening' wears off, and I might even go so far as to have this treatment damage a shield not designed for this sort of thing, either during the sharpening (reduce hit points by 1) or during the attack (on a 1, it takes the damage it would have inflicted, as the shield is taking impact stress from the edge, when it's explicitly built to take impact stress from the 'boss').

Shadow Lodge

jyster wrote:
Wonz wrote:
So can I sharpen my club or mace to increase its threat range?
So why would a sharpened scabbard be 18-20?

Why is the scabbard in this discussion at all?

When you are trying to make stats for an item you generally look for items that are very similar to the one you want and modify them.

Scabbards are not similar to shields at all, it's just not an appropriate thing to try and compare it to.


Someone once told me* that sharpening the edges of a shield was a BAD IDEA.

His reasoning, based on some other source of infallible knowledge** was that you ran the risk of cutting into yourself/cutting your face off/generally maiming yourself when the shield was being used as.. as shield.

There was logic there somewhere, maybe even from a source non-tavern related. Sharp edges on defensive things make life more complicated?

Hmm..

*shrugs*

That scabbard does seem nuts. I could understand if it had the same stats as a slashing short sword, what with there being examples of swords within swords in history***.

''

''

*..probably a bloke met in a randomly generated tavern.

**..undoubtedly a bloke met in a randomly generated tavern.

*** I have no way of supporting this claim nor can I be bothered.


jyster wrote:
The combat scabbard sharpened has a threat range of 18-20/x2, so if I sharpen the edges of my shield it should be the same, right? What do you think?

A few points to bear in mind:

1) Shields are concave for greater strength, and that means the edges are turned toward you.
2) You often brace your shield against your body and thighs to bash, block heavy blows, shove etc.

Given these two factors, I think the most likely outcome for sharpening your shields edge to razor sharpness is a seriously injured shield user ... in other words, it's a good method of chopping your own leg off. For fighting the enemy? Meh, that's what swords are for.

Scarab Sages

Wonz wrote:
So can I sharpen my club or mace to increase its threat range?
jyster wrote:
So why would a sharpened scabbard be 18-20?
Cold Napalm wrote:
Because somebody had a brain fart and thought that a scabbard with that crit range was a good idea.

"Hey! I've got an idea! Why don't I take a long, straight razor, and dangle it on a swinging cord, near my nuts?"

At least a bad idea like this won't end up being hereditary...


Rake wrote:
Vult Wrathblades wrote:
I have dont this exact same thing with a character of mine. (2 shield fighter, caused a lot of drama on these boards but I love it, and had someone craft an awesome model for me two, he kicks ass.)
Interesting. Legit or houseruled? What's the build look like?

Here is a link to the thread I started about this Char.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/lookingToBuildA2WeaponShieldFighter&page=1

A lot of people really hated the idea and could not see it working IRL. But I disagree, I can see it working wonderfully.

I dont have the time to post the whole build and I dont want to hijack this thread but it was of course the two weapon fighting stuff, the sheild attack stuff and whatever else I could fit in, yet with those two things that does not leave much room.


Cold Napalm wrote:
jyster wrote:
Wonz wrote:
So can I sharpen my club or mace to increase its threat range?
So why would a sharpened scabbard be 18-20?
Because somebody had a brain fart and thought that a scabbard with that crit range was a good idea.

+1, why do people always take the most idiotic examples and hold everything else to that standard.


Remco Sommeling wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
jyster wrote:
Wonz wrote:
So can I sharpen my club or mace to increase its threat range?
So why would a sharpened scabbard be 18-20?
Because somebody had a brain fart and thought that a scabbard with that crit range was a good idea.
+1, why do people always take the most idiotic examples and hold everything else to that standard.

Because faced with the choice between:

"Nobody has done this before, so I must be a genius to think of it and it's COOL!"

and

"Nobody has done this before because it's a bloody stupid idea."

... some people invariably choose the option that flatters their ego.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Now, I don't really see why you would want to sharpen a shield's edges unless you were going for some Captain America Shield throwing badassery. Which I would allow because it sounds awesome! I would not, increase the threat range but I would let it deal slashing damage and increase the damage by 1 step while throwing the shield. This would of course be a house rule but IMO and freaking sweet one.

I see threat range and crit multipliers in this light, maybe it'll help make sense why sharpening a club/mace/shield wouldn't increase those.
Now mind you, these are general guidelines on how I see the mechanics. I make no claims that it is in anyway consistent or the intended way for the game.

Threat range is how easily it would be to land a critical hit. So a weapon who can easily slip through armor or pierce through skin to strike at vital organs would has an increase threat range. In this care, the threat ranges make sense(to me) with rapiers, kukris and scimitars.

Crit Multiplier is how disastrous it would be if that weapon managed to strike a vital organ. So things like a glaive, greataxe and other such x3 crit multipliers would tear apart a person if given the chance at an amazing and well placed strike. Example: Greataxe slashes a huge gaping wound through someone's stomach. Let's just say the guts won't be staying inside that creature for very long.

For x4 multipliers I see even more disastrous consequences. I imagine a scythe or a pick would "hook" an organ and it for a ride.

To be honest, under these criteria, a sharpened scabbard shouldn't have an 18-20/x2 crit range. I can see an argument that it "might" be a 19-20/x as an analog to a longsword or a short sword, but it would be a rather weak argument in my opinion.


Wonz wrote:
Now, I don't really see why you would want to sharpen a shield's edges unless you were going for some Captain America Shield throwing badassery.

He used a blunt shield - otherwise how else did he keep his fingers?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:
Wonz wrote:
Now, I don't really see why you would want to sharpen a shield's edges unless you were going for some Captain America Shield throwing badassery.
He used a blunt shield - otherwise how else did he keep his fingers?

Cause he is a badass. His name is Captain America after all.

I always thought he had a strap to hold onto the shield. I assumed he used that to throw it as well.


Wonz wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Wonz wrote:
Now, I don't really see why you would want to sharpen a shield's edges unless you were going for some Captain America Shield throwing badassery.
He used a blunt shield - otherwise how else did he keep his fingers?

Cause he is a badass. His name is Captain America after all.

I always thought he had a strap to hold onto the shield. I assumed he used that to throw it as well.

Nope. Cap's shield is blunt damage. Otherwise, he'd have killed a LOT of Hydra and Aim agents by now. Also, it bounces off of people. A lot. You'd figure an edged shield would lodge into people, not bounce off of them;) Though it has enough of an edge to be useful at times. He's also caught it in the palm of his hand. Unless that chain hauberk under the costume is also covering his hands with adamantium gloves, he'd have lost his fingers by now!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lathiira wrote:
Wonz wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Wonz wrote:
Now, I don't really see why you would want to sharpen a shield's edges unless you were going for some Captain America Shield throwing badassery.
He used a blunt shield - otherwise how else did he keep his fingers?

Cause he is a badass. His name is Captain America after all.

I always thought he had a strap to hold onto the shield. I assumed he used that to throw it as well.

Nope. Cap's shield is blunt damage. Otherwise, he'd have killed a LOT of Hydra and Aim agents by now. Also, it bounces off of people. A lot. You'd figure an edged shield would lodge into people, not bounce off of them;) Though it has enough of an edge to be useful at times. He's also caught it in the palm of his hand. Unless that chain hauberk under the costume is also covering his hands with adamantium gloves, he'd have lost his fingers by now!

Baaaah, look like I don't know nearly enough about Captain America as I should. :)

I still think it would be hilarious to see a "Spinning Frisbee of Slashery" being thrown across a room and lodging itself on a bad guy even though it doesn't make much sense realistically.


Wonz wrote:
Lathiira wrote:
Wonz wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Wonz wrote:
Now, I don't really see why you would want to sharpen a shield's edges unless you were going for some Captain America Shield throwing badassery.
He used a blunt shield - otherwise how else did he keep his fingers?

Cause he is a badass. His name is Captain America after all.

I always thought he had a strap to hold onto the shield. I assumed he used that to throw it as well.

Nope. Cap's shield is blunt damage. Otherwise, he'd have killed a LOT of Hydra and Aim agents by now. Also, it bounces off of people. A lot. You'd figure an edged shield would lodge into people, not bounce off of them;) Though it has enough of an edge to be useful at times. He's also caught it in the palm of his hand. Unless that chain hauberk under the costume is also covering his hands with adamantium gloves, he'd have lost his fingers by now!

Baaaah, look like I don't know nearly enough about Captain America as I should. :)

I still think it would be hilarious to see a "Spinning Frisbee of Slashery" being thrown across a room and lodging itself on a bad guy even though it doesn't make much sense realistically.

That's doable, it's just not a shield. If it's a shield, bouncing it off their cranium is just as much fun, really.


Wonz wrote:
Lathiira wrote:
Wonz wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Wonz wrote:
Now, I don't really see why you would want to sharpen a shield's edges unless you were going for some Captain America Shield throwing badassery.
He used a blunt shield - otherwise how else did he keep his fingers?

Cause he is a badass. His name is Captain America after all.

I always thought he had a strap to hold onto the shield. I assumed he used that to throw it as well.

Nope. Cap's shield is blunt damage. Otherwise, he'd have killed a LOT of Hydra and Aim agents by now. Also, it bounces off of people. A lot. You'd figure an edged shield would lodge into people, not bounce off of them;) Though it has enough of an edge to be useful at times. He's also caught it in the palm of his hand. Unless that chain hauberk under the costume is also covering his hands with adamantium gloves, he'd have lost his fingers by now!

Baaaah, look like I don't know nearly enough about Captain America as I should. :)

I still think it would be hilarious to see a "Spinning Frisbee of Slashery" being thrown across a room and lodging itself on a bad guy even though it doesn't make much sense realistically.

There was a video with that(Death by frisbee) in a movie. I will try to find the youtube link.

Frisbee death

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lathiira wrote:


Nope. Cap's shield is blunt damage. Otherwise, he'd have killed a LOT of Hydra and Aim agents by now. Also, it bounces off of people. A lot. You'd figure an edged shield would lodge into people, not bounce off of them;) Though it has enough of an edge to be useful at times. He's also caught it in the palm of his hand. Unless that chain hauberk under the costume is also covering his hands with adamantium gloves, he'd have lost his fingers by now!

It's also a unique vibranium/adamantium mix that was poured into a mold by accident. It's edges can't be sharpened because there's no tool made by mortal man that can cut it. After all in order to sharpen something, you've got to file pieces of it off. Regular sharpening adds to the erosion of normal swords and is part of the wear that eventually renders them useless. Magic blades on the other hand don't require sharpening at all.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lathiira wrote:
it bounces off of people. A lot.

In World of Warcraft, Protection based Paladins develop thier own "Captain America throw", where they throw thier shield it hits up to three enemies and returns. It's even called Avenger's Shield.


A shield with sharpened edges to use as a slashing weapon °|°

The recreation of medieval fighting techniques with various Weapons (see here) is my free time occupation for several years now.

If you ever fought with Sword & Board you would know that slashing takes a great effort - hence Swords must be swung violently to have effect (yes even the japanese ones that seem to cut anvils).

To bash with a shield is usually not ment to damage the opponent, but to disorient him and, more importanly, trap his own shield and weapon so that you can strike unhindered at his head or body.

There have been very very few historical examples of spikes at shields, as these usually make no sense at all - they only trap the full force of a strike and cause a great strain on your shield arm or even rip your shield off your arm...

Besides, it seems ridiculous to say that only because a "Scabbard of Sharpening" increases the threat range of a blade, sharpening a shield should have the same effect.


MicMan wrote:


There have been very very few historical examples of spikes at shields, as these usually make no sense at all - they only trap the full force of a strike and cause a great strain on your shield arm or even rip your shield off your arm...

Besides, it seems ridiculous to say that only because a "Scabbard of Sharpening" increases the threat range of a blade, sharpening a shield should have the same effect.

+1!

Shields are supposed to be used to deflect the incoming blow at an angle and down to the ground where possible. Spikes would only trap the force of the blow.
So it follows when I designed my "spiked" shield graphically I added a punching dagger'ish blade at the fist and elbow end of the light shield ;)
Still not very realistic perhaps, but I like the idea and can live with it =)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

If you're looking for a WoTC precedent for slashing shields, Races of Stone introduced the Dwarven Buckler Axe, a buckler with a pair of notches cut into it forming an axeblade along one edge (like a two-mouthed Pac-Man,) and Races of Faerun introduced small slashing blades that could be affixed to an armor or shield's surface instead of spikes.

There's also the Gnome Tortoise Blade, also from Races of Stone (an earlier version might also be in Complete Warrior or Arms & Equip. Guide.) It doesn't do slashing damage, but it does accomplish the whole shield-mounted blade thing.


I watched Spartacus: Blood and Sand, there were lots of Shield edge strikes in that...lots and lots of blood...heh.

I might allow 19-20 crit threat for a sharpened shield, but not 18-20. I would also rule that in a crit fail strike you do damage yourself with the shield.

yes, I know it's not historically accurate LoL

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