Winter-Touched Sprite

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Christina Stiles wrote:
I will check in on their progress.

Our first three chapters, "Rules for Sex", "Class Options," and "Pregnancy" are currently a total of 61 pages long. Chapter 2, Class Options, is 40 pages by itself.

As you can probably tell, our focus has been on class archetypes of a sexual variety.

For anyone interested, you will not find the classes from the BoEF in this book. However, you will find dozens of archetypes to transform the Pathfinder RPG base classes into sexually themed classes that are useful in combat, some of which have similar flavor to certain classes (and prestige classes) from the BoEF. And when I say base classes, I'm including Alchemist, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Inquisitor, Magus, Ninja, Oracle, Samurai, Summoner, and Witch.

Mistah Green wrote:

There's also ways of bypassing concealment, for the situations in which enemies actually do have concealment. Not in PF though.

... other than Improved Precise Shot, which negates all but total cover and concealment. Which is a feat in Pathfinder Core. But which was NOT a feat in the 3.5 PHB.

Doesn't help melee characters, but since you're focused on the ranged rogue it seems approprate.

Mistah Green wrote:

Once the flask leaves your body, it is no longer under the effect of the spell. No miss chance. It's also a ranged touch attack, so you can SA with it just fine. It also does 1 damage to anything close by and does not deliver SA damage on the splash, only on the direct hit.

**looks at the 3.5 PHB**

Actually, if it leaves your hand in the Etherial Plane, it stays IN THE ETHERIAL PLANE. According to the description of Blink, this happens with all Ranged Touch Attacks.

Also, there's implication in the description of Blink (not said specifically, but implied) that the user's 20% miss chance is Concealment. And, for reference, even in 3.5 you could not sneak attack a creature with concealment. Meaning that, by a valid interpretaion of the Blink description, you could NOT use Blink to get a Sneak Attack in 3.5, because while your target was flat footed, it was also concealed, negating sneak attack.

It would depend on the DM of the game in question. No DM or Player I've ever gamed with has tried to use Blink, and if I'd been DMing I wouldn't have allowed it for the above reason.

Edit: Whoops, typo. Fixed now.

Bill Dunn wrote:

I've never bought into the arguments behind "Gandalf was a 5th level magic user". One thing about magic, it can be very subtle. That's part of the charm of the items that simply give a bonus.

... personally, I always thought Gandalf was a Druid.


He makes the sun rise.
He summons Eagels to save him and his party.
He hangs out with Wood Elves, and wears one of the Elven rings (this one's entirely circumstancial).
He stands on a bridge and tries to PHYSICALLY halt a Balor (which is probably the reason everyone makes him Epic level).
He summons a really awesome horse to be an animal companion, or
something similar.
And he has an unspecified evocation duel with a wizard.

These sound like things a Druid would do to me. Or some sort of "Nature Wizard" alt class feature. *shrug* I'm not in love with the idea or anything, just something to think about.

stringburka wrote:

This works well for a low-level campaign, where spellcasters are usually notably weaker than melees in several areas. Be careful though, if you take this to high levels; at high levels, full spellcasters already have a tendancy to be dominating, and they have far less need for magical items than the more mundane characters.

For reference, my playtest of this went from 1st to 21st level. Now, the party leader (a ranger) did manage to pick up an artifact weapon (one specifically designed for fighting her favored enemies) but it required a fairly long and intensive quest to get it. By 21st level, each party member had one (and only one) magical item, that they'd worked and sweated for. None of them were stat or AC boosts either; weapons for the full babs and other melee characters (ie the rogue) and other unique items (often with daily uses) for the primary spellcasters.

It was a fairly gritty and intense game, and I will say for the record that yes, the spellcasters needing to buff more DID mean the party needed to rest more often than Pathfinder standard. But, it also helped to BALANCE the high level spellcasters, because instead of battle field control or insta-kills, they often had to buff the first round or two of combat. Oh, and combats tended to have faster rounds but last more rounds (possibly because of that delay getting the casters into the fight). It also built a lot of teamwork.

stringburka wrote:

This can be avoided, but is hard without restructuring a lot.
1. This is the easiest method and the one I would recommend. Give out fake treasure. Instead of the fighter finding a +1 magic sword, he gets 2000 Award...

Someone else also suggested +3 masterworks. I actually tried that in another game long ago (back in 3.5... no, wait, maybe 3.0) and that worked out okay, but (with spellcasters and the Greater Magic Weapon spell) it was never really necessary.

Oh, and of course, Bonded Items still worked. So, if there'd been a Wizard in the party (there wasn't) he/she could have made a personal magic item. Never came up though. There was a Paladin who had a magic holy sword for a few rounds per day (before she claimed her questy artifact weapon) and even after that she still used the ability if she needed something to overcome elemental regen.

Anyway, not saying that this is everyone's cup of tea. In fact, after 20 levels of this, I was like "okay, time to see how well Pathfinder works in Eberron" which as everyone knows is the land of magic items everywhere. But I liked it well enough to come back to it again a year later and play in someone else's no magic item game. All I was saying is that it worked out for my group with no CR adjustment, just a realization that if the party didn't work together and keep everyone buffed (and rest when they ran out of buffs) they'd end up getting themselves killed.

Mistah Green wrote:

Not in D&D it isn't. Two negatives do not equal a positive, and one handed weapon = fail and pewpewpew = fail.

The rest of your post is 'I don't like it, so it's wrong' which is stupid for obvious reasons.

Wow. Wow.

I spent a whole, quite detailed post explaining that the build did work. I gave examples of what I did, and stated that in a D&D game that I actually played in it was perfectly effective. The point being that since it DID work, your statement that in D&D it can't work is clearly wrong.

Perhaps the build doesn't work in YOUR gaming group. Fine. That doesn't mean it is a bad build in another group. Like, for instance, a group where the Rogue doesn't think Blinking makes him invisible. Really, who the hell EVER thought that? I can't imagine that being allowed in 3.5 - it makes no sense at all. But defending the Rogue (really? so you needed a spellcaster in 3.5 to play a good rogue? insane.) is not my issue with you.

You are disrespectful, sir. You made a blanket statement that perfectly viable builds were unplayable. You are clearly wrong, since many people here agree that these builds (the one-handed evocer and the rogue without spell buffs) is perfectly workable. These people aren't spinning theories, they are presenting you with information about characters that they have played or played with in previous D&D games. You can't simply pretend they don't exist. And if you attempt to, you're only proving how much of an idiot you are. Do you really want all these people to think you're an idiot? No? Good. Try respecting someone else's opinion for change.

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Kthulhu wrote:
I've seen a lot of poeple talk about low-magic campaigns here. But what do you really consider low magic?

Well, since you ask...

I've toyed with this concept in a few games. Magic itself is common, but magic items are nearly impossible to make. No item creation feats exist, nor does the permancy spell.

Why? Because suddenly the party's buff casters are much more important. Buff spells are the only way to get a magic weapon, ever, the only way to get a resistance bonus on saves, or an upgrade to armor.

This also eliminates 99% of treasure. Masterwork is as good as it gets, so there's no need to give the PCs enough cash to buy entire nations in any sane economy. It also makes kits and other low-cost non-magical buffs important for the entire game, not just the first several levels before the rogue can buy magical lockpicks of knock or whatever.

Oh, and there's one special exception: artifacts still exist. Usually as plot devices or long-term quest goals, ancient relics forged by the gods themselves or some such.

Oh, and yes, like the OP, no monster downgrades. The magic weapon spell takes care of the first level of DR, and the Align Weapon spell takes care of the next tier. It also creates the wonderful situation where the Cleric has to choose whether to heal in a given round or buff the party fighter to penetrate the demon's DR. Great for drama, and it makes some of these creatures FEEL scarier. I mean, really, demons and devils are supposed to be creatures of terror. Their DR should be difficult to overcome, and doing so should require effort, sacrafice, and being prepared in the first place.

I used this system in a regular D&D setting, and one of my former players who's currently DMing adoped it for a "realistic" historical fantasy game set on Earth in the 1400s (specifically, in France, Italy, and Egypt as the campagin's progressed). My 6th level Oracle owns not a single magic item, and it's never been an issue.

ikarinokami wrote:

I'm not sure why people are upset with the OP. He stated the facts very clearly and correctly. The magus is a square peg trying to fit in a round hole.

I take the op to mean, that the basics mechanics of the class needs to be rebuilt. I think he is correct, as it stands the class is for the lack of a better word silly.

Why are people upset with the OP? Because a one-handed evocation mage is a perfectly valid and playable setup.

Now, I can't comment on the Magus itself, having not playtested it yet. However, I recently played an Eldridge Knight in Pathfinder (first level fighter, Evocationist Wizard thereafter until I met the BAB requirement). I had a Bastard Sword as my bonded item, and my Fighter Feat was Exotic Weapon so I could use it one handed when necessary.

My character was an unstopable killing machine. I made the melee and full spellcasters alike with their builds were as good as mine.

So yes, I am rather annoyed with the OP's statements about my build. As I said, I can't comment on the Magus specifically, but the OP attacked one-handed Evocation users. Because, clearly, the build does work.

Warklaw wrote:

I can only guess that this has been discussed before:

((It has been my experiance that majority of players do not play down to their characters intellegence/wisdom, though the few I have seen make for some great RPG scenes))

Really? Huh.

I'm currently playing an oracle with a moderately high Int (and an astronomical Cha, but I digress). Sometimes, because I'm a player and have lots of smarts, including a good sense of plot devices and so forth, I have a moment of inspiration and a great idea occurs to me. So, I ask myself, does my oracle figure the same thing out?

To find out, I have myself roll an Int check. If I roll well (DC 10 for fairly easy stuff, 15 for moderately difficult, and 20 if there's no way I should have figured this out) and pass the DC, then my oracle has a similar realization and I relate my idea to the group.

If I fail, I might jot the idea down as a note to myself, but my poor oracle remains clueless (or, if I roll particularly badly, decides that the exact opposite is true and proceeds accordingly). This actually resulted in a halarious moment (for me anyway) when I rolled badly, proposed the craziest idea I could think of to explain events... and it turned out I was right (my silly idea, not my actual idea). Fun times.

I do something similar with Wis checks (less good than my int) for those moments when I come up with a plan that is exceptionally unsafe (my oracle is rather... impulsive) to see if I run off and try it or think again and try something less suicidal. Those I fail much more often. I think my dice are conspiring against me.

Anyway, I was just surprised that someone was having trouble with players being too smart.

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

A mad couple of days here, and not much time to post, but I want to get back on this...
(Not strictly errata technical discussion)

If based on the Nature mystery, it also retains the vampiric touch limitation of 'you can't kill things with it'?

I did think sympathy might be a more on-theme addition as a 9th level spell to the spell-list (druids get it in their list there) than time stop but given what the other oracle mysteries are throwing around as 9th level spell list additions, I suppose you have to go with time stop to compete with the other lists...

A few of the chatroom regulars have looked at your handiwork here, and been quite impressed. :) I'd definitely think about putting something in for Wayfinder #4 when the call opens...

Yeah, I assumed it had the same restrictions as the Nature mystery and vampiric touch.

And, actually, Sympathy works well too. The reason for time stop was, when this was the "Love" mystery, my thought was loving making "time stand still"... hence time stop. Since being renamed, the thematic logic works less well.

And thanks!

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Ooh, interesting.

It's a bit tricky to comment on as some of the powers are situational (being enchantment/charm) so do not work vs. some creature types, but I'm a bit worried about the DC boost of Beauty Smiles, in the context that it does stack with Spell Focus.
Is there a minimum level on taking the Pain and Pleasure revelation? It seems to partially emulate the vampiric touch spell, only with the difference that you can use the revelation to kill someone.
The Wrenching Heartache revelation doesn't have a range mentioned, or the number of times per day it can be used.
Does the final revelation stack with the Love's Guidance? Adding the same ability modifier bonus twice to some saves (especially when that bonus is the prime requisite for the Oracle class) isn't something I recall seeing anywhere else. Could the Love's Guidance key off oracle level instead?


Pain and Pleasure - Yeah, minimum 7th level, forgot to add that. Based on the power from the Nature mystery.

Wrenching Heartache - Close range. 1/day, +1/day at 5th level, and an additional time per day each five levels thereafter. (actually based on the Fire Breath ability from the Flame mystery).

Love's Guidance - actually, since the bonus is the same type, it wouldn't stack with the final revelation. Alternatively, add the following to the Final Revelation: You become immune to effects of the Charm sub-school. That way the bonus from Love's Guidance is moot (since it only applies to charm spells). The Cha to all saves is from the Heavens mystery Final revelation.

As for Beauty Smiles, since the Charm subschool is very specific, I didn't think it was a problem. However, if you think it's a problem, then try this:

Beauty Smiles (Su): You channel the divine beauty of your goddess, moving the hearts of those who behold you. You receive a +1 bonus to the DC of all Charm spells (that is, spells with the Charm subtype). At 6th level, this bonus increases to +2, at 12th level, the bonus increases to +3, and at 18th level the bonus increases to +4. This ability overlaps (does not stack) with the effect of the Spell Focus feat.


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Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Well, you could post it up here (if you have the time) in case it's any use to The Powers That Be, or to other APG users in the interim until something official does materialise. :)

Okay. Here it is:

Deities: Calistria, Shelyn

Class Skills: An oracle with the passion mystery adds Bluff, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Perform to her list of class skills.

Bonus Spells: Charm Person (2nd), Touch of Idiocy (4th), Suggestion (6th), Charm Monster (8th), Telepathic Bond (10th), Symbol of Persuasion (12th), Mass Suggestion (14th), Mass Charm Monster (16th), Time Stop (18).

Revelations: An oracle with the passion mystery can choose from any of the following revelations.

Beauty Smiles (Su): You channel the divine beauty of your goddess, moving the hearts of those who behold you. You receive a +1 bonus to the DC of all Charm spells (that is, spells with the Charm subtype). At 7th level, this bonus increases to +2, and at 14th level, the bonus increases to +3. This ability stacks with the effect of the Spell Focus (Enchantment) feat.

Graceful Avoidance (Su): Your graceful movement grants you the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws.

Healing Touch (Su): You can heal wounds on a creature with a touch. This power heals 1d6 points of damage +1 point for every two oracle levels you possess. If used against an undead creature, it instead deals that amount of positive energy damage. At 7th level, you may expend two uses of this ability to heal a creature of 1 negative level or 1d4 points of ability damage. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

Kiss of Life (Su): An Oracle with this mystery may kiss the lips of a recently slain creature, restoring it to life. This ability functions like the Breath of Life spell, except that it will function on creatures slain up to 1 round per 2 oracle levels ago and, in addition to 5d8 + caster level healing, this mystery also restores 1 point of ability damage and 1 negative level, allowing creatures slain by negative levels and having an ability reduced to 0 can also be brought back in this fashion. This ability can also be used to harm an undead creature (must succeed a grapple check, receive a will save, etc). Finally, you may discharge a use to make yourself immune to a succubus's Energy Drain for one round per oracle level. At 11th level you may use this ability once per day; you may use this ability one additional time per day per four levels (twice at 15, thrice at 19). You must be 11th level or higher before taking this revelation.

Love's Guidance (Su): You may add your Charisma modifier to your Wisdom modifier on all Wisdom-base checks. You may also add your Charisma modifier to your Wisdom when making a Will Save verses a spell or effect of the Charm sub-school.

Mantle of Love (Su): You envelop yourself in the divine love of your goddess, who protects you from harm. You gain a +4 armor bonus. At 7th level, and every four levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +2. At 13th level, this armor grants you DR 5/Piercing. You can use this mantle for 10 minutes per day per oracle level. The duration does not need to be consecutive; it can instead be spent in 10-minute increments.

Pain and Pleasure (Su): With a touch attack, you deal 1d6 points of damage per 2 oracle levels you possess (max 10d6). You are healed for the amount dealt. Furthermore, the target must make a Fort save 10 + 1/2 Oracle level + Cha mod vs Nausea for 1 round. At 11th level, the Nausea lasts for 2 rounds. You may use this ability once per day. At 7th level, you may use this ability twice per day; at 14th level you may use this ability 3 times per day.

Terrible Beauty (Su): You channel the terrible, wonderful beauty of your goddess to harm those who look upon you. At 7th level, the target must make Fort save 10 + 1/2 Oracle level + Cha mod vs Blindness. At 14th level, vs Stun and Blind. At 20th level, this functions as a Phantasmal Killer spell; those that pass their saves are Blinded and those that fail the first save but pass the second save are Stunned and blinded. You must be 7th Level before taking this revelation.

Trust Me (Su): Once per day, you can reattempt a previously failed Bluff or Diplomacy check, even if a second attempt would normally not be allowed. If that check would normally receive a penalty for being tried again, you do not take that penalty.

Wrenching Heartache (Su): As a standard action, you can inflict a terrible attack on a creature's psyche. The target creature suffers 1d4 damage per oracle level. The damage is untyped, and can be halved by a successful Will save, DC 10 +1/2 oracle level + Cha mod. Mindless creatures (creatures without an int score) are immune to this attack, but creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are not. Although the title implies it, the creature need not have a cardiovascular system to be affected, or even true emotions - this ability affects any creature with an intelligence score.

Final Revelation: Upon reaching 20th level, your connection to divine love allows you to take 20 on any Charisma based skill. You receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your charisma modifier. Finally, the oracle gains the Timeless Body ability.

Edit: If someone can link me to the crunch article for Wayfinder 4, I'll post it over there too.

In response to Charles Evans 25:

I homebrewed an Oracle Mystery for Calistria after the revised playtest versions were released (back in March or so). I never really came up with a name for it - Love, Lust, Passion... something like that. The spells were pulled heavily from the Charm domain, and the Revelations were all refluffed versions of powers from other Oracle mysteries, so that I wasn't creating anything "new", just repackaging other powers.

A lot of the powers were drawn from the Lore mystery, but emphasizing social skills rather than knowledge and language skills.

Anyway, I was rather disappointed that the only new Mystery was Life. I'm a huge Calistria fan, and she seems the type to choose an Oracle. Oh well.

I've already run one playtest game up through 9th level, and I'm getting ready to start a second one (with more players). And with that experience, I've gotta say -

Double Max (plus Con mod) at first level is the only way to go.

Why? It gives mages 12 HP and Barbarians 24 HP (before con mod). That's a good spread - the Mages can survive on that, even with a negative con mod (for those people who like to play Raistlin-style mages) and Barbarians with a huge Con score aren't set insanely ahead of the curve. (Someone mentioned a 34 at first level? That's way too high!)

Cleric/Rogue types get 16 at first level, while fighters types get 20. Con plays in as it always had, via the con mod. It grants at LEAST the +6 HP of the "same" system, doesn't screw over any races (like the Elves), but doesn't double-reward the 20 Con Barbarians.

Also, it's simple. Easy to maintain. And easy to apply to NPCs and monsters - because, yeah, they need the extra HP. Does combat take longer at 1st level? Maybe a LITTLE. But that falls off by fourth level (combat speed remains more consistant through mid levels).

And, who ever said that 1st level PCs aren't scared... why should they be? They're PCs - they're supposed to be the best of the best, leaving behind thousands of Commoners and Experts to become the heroes. They shouldn't be quaking in their boots... at least until the double-max-at-first-level Dragon shows up.

Also, Double Max at first level allows DMs to take off the kid-gloves and not have to coddle PCs until they get some HP. I was dropping PCs to negatives just fine (and watching them stand back up again after the Cleric channeled some positive energy to them) with double max.

So, yes. Double max is the way to go. Not too little (like flat or racial) and not too much (like + full Con). Double Max is just right.