Tholas's page

Some thoughts on feats. Please bear with me I am very short on time and "sitting" in a rather cramped train right now ...

Generally I am missing prerequisites tied into Pathfinder RPG.

Capstone Binder (Occult)
"Special: A warshade that selects this feat also gains access to the selected spirit’s major granted ability; they must beat the spirit’s DC by 15 instead of the usual 10 in order to receive it, however. This is in addition to the feat’s usual effects."

So with this feat a Warshade gains access to the selected spirit's major granted ability at the normal +10 DC? If yes, the descripion seems a little bit clunky to me.

I would suggest changing the "Improved/Greater Minor Binding" to "Minor Binding, Improved/Greater"

Supernatural Conciousness & Supernatural Slayer
Both feats are only very loosely tied into pact magic usage and have no other prerequisites. Yes they are very useful against Pact Magic users but I'd suggest adding some fitting prerequisites.
Imho "Supernatural Consciousness" is awfully powerful, even when it would just allow to uses Wis instead of Dex.

And I would suggest making a feat out of the "Multiclass binders whose classes possess different key ability modifiers (i.e. a pactsworn pagan uses their Wisdom modifier, a soul weaver uses their Intelligence modifier, etc.) uses the highest among their available modifiers to determine their binding check, granted ability DCs, etc. For example, a multiclass soul weaver / occultist would use the higher between their Charisma modifier and their Intelligence modifier for this purpose.
..." paragraph.

The Sorcerer Bloodline is missing the the bonus feats section.

"Tholas wrote:

... and I would be really extatic if something with the flavor of the PrC "Apostle of the Green Lady" from James Jacobs would be in the book. Someone who binds only to a specific spirit, possibly for some deeper motive than to gain power. I would really like to play an evil version of my old Age of Worms Cleric in the upcoming campaign. ^^

I'll see what I can do. I'm not familiar with the PrC you're referring to. This book, being a softcover, has no Prestige Classes in it. But that doesn't mean I won't ever write one.

The Apostle of the Green Lady is a modified version of a PrC from Tome of Magic. We converted our chars to Pathfinder Beta back then and my GM recommended Secrets of Pact Magic. I was thinking of converting my char to this ruleset but sadly this campaign was interrupted and later canceled.

Well, but that was really just wishful thinking. I would be totally content with a new and shiny pact magic sourcebook.

I've never hidden my love of Prestige Classes from the community and my overall distaste with how they've been handled so far in Pathfinder. (I'm going to save any real judgment until I actually have read the upcoming Paths of Prestige, however.)

Yes, PrCs are not nearly as desireable in Pathfinder then they were in 3.5. Personaly I think that is not really a bad thing. Remember all those 'loose nothing important from your base class and gain awesome powers' (3.5 Cleric I look at thee!) PrCs? Now you're thinking twice to stray from your main class. But yes, imho some of the PrCs(and other alternate class options) are sort of underwhelming.

I own the original books, and a player for my upcoming "Way of the Wicked" campaign is interesting in playing a pact magic user, so we would love to playtest the new version!

Horray! I would love to participate!

I was leafing through "Secrets" and was actually kind of reconsidering playing a pact magic character. As much as I love the flair of the book it is too much 3.5ish and most classes and options not quite up to par with the adjusted powerlevel of the Pathfinder RPG options.

<wishful thinking>
... and I would be really extatic if something with the flavor of the PrC "Apostle of the Green Lady" from James Jacobs would be in the book. Someone who binds only to a specific spirit, possibly for some deeper motive than to gain power. I would really like to play an evil version of my old Age of Worms Cleric in the upcoming campaign. ^^
</wishful thinking>

I really do not think that the "that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed" part entitles the player to see the result of a d20 roll. If so it would make 'Unluck' extremely conterproductive for demetrial purposes and thus the misnomer of the Century.

Unluck would still be an extremely potent ability if it would be like the witch's misfortune hex. No save, no spell resistance and as an immediate action, once per creature but all day long?
Every time you know someone must roll a d20 you could intervene. Might it be a save against your spell or his CMB check to grapple you or his bluff check ...

Monks get perfect strike which they can use every round.

A Monk get Perfect Strike at 11th level, once per round and lvl/4 times per day. Or lvl+(lvl/4) times per day if he is a zen archer.

Getting a reroll for an ally is obviously not the intention of a lower level revelation like misfortune, when there's a higher level revelation that does EXACTLY that.

I beg to differ, the 5th level fortune ability is self only. So Misfortune is even more powerful.

Fortune (Ex): At 5th level, as an immediate action, you can reroll any one d20 roll that you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. You can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every six oracle levels beyond 5th.

Hey folks,

I have a question about the intimidation (demoralize) check... In the book it states that you can use this skill to potentially 'shaken' your opponents for a few rounds.

First let me quote the relevant passages of the skill:

Intimdate(Cha)
...
Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause your opponents to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten opponents in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you.

Action: Using Intimidate to change an opponent's attitude requires 1 minute of conversation. Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.[/]

Try Again: [b]You can attempt to Intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.
...

Question 1) How long does using this skill in this fashion take? Or, if in combat, does just saying your using it means your using it?

Question 2) How many enemies does this include in one roll?

Using intimidate to demoralize one opponent takes a standard action.

Edit: You can try to demoralize just one enemy per attempt. Yes, there is the argument about some unclear wording in the skill description, I don't think so and it would make the Dazzling Display feat rather obsolete.

Question 3) What's to stop the players (or me, the DM) from starting EVERY battle with this tactic?

Loosing a standard action just to intimidate one enemy is normally a sub par choice in battle. But boosted with the right feats and abilities it can be a fun and worthwhile option.

There doesn't seem to be a downside to using DEMORALIZE... Like if you miss your roll (say, by more than 5), can the enemies actually think your LESS of a threat and gain bonuses?

Well, every intimidation attempt, successful or not, at the same enemy raises the DC by 5. You want to get your Intimdate skill as high as possible to ensure you have a good chance to make your enemy(ies) shaken for as long as possible in with the first attempt.... did I mention that Intimidating Glare is 1d4 rounds + 1 round for every 5

Ninja'ed twice ... ;-)

Overhand Chop (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls. This ability replaces armor training 1.

So, could this be combined with Vital Strike, Deadly Stroke or other 'make one attack' feats? Basically this is much the same as the old question if Vital Strike can be combined with 'as a standard action make one attack' type of feats.

Hmm, just rambling a bit as I have no time to dig through books.

First: How evil is your bad guy? Just plain good ol' evil or did he get something like the fiendish template?
It would be a big plus the confrontation could start in an wide and open space. Give your Knight a good Warhorse and let him charge at the party. That should get them really nervous.
The Endurance&Diehard feats coupled with a way to gulp potions quickly(or some consumable swift action/automatic below 0 HP healing item with charges. Afair there is is something in the MIC) would probably boost hist staying power, especially if you have a 2H Power Attacking fighter in the party who can dish out 40+ HPs with a confirmed critical.
I think a one Level dip into Barbarian is out of the question, would go well with Diehard ... A CL2 Potion of Bears Endurance would be the next best thing.
Give him a Brooch of Shielding and perhaps some minor(also consumable?) fire resist gear if the Arcane Casters like to throw Magic Missiles and Scorching Ray.
To make him a thread he needs quite some gear the party probably shouldn't get at their level. If it fits thematically you could give him one or more cursed or alignement(LE) restricted items. Maybe a an ancient Full Plate of maximized evilness with SR and some resists.

Honestly, how much time can it take Jason or someone else from Paizo(who asked Jason) drop in and once and for all clarify what exactly an attack action is and if a spring attack allows you to apply an 'as a standard action' melee attack feat?
Personally I don't want a full fledged FAQ but just three or four sentences of clarifications. That shouldn't be to hard?

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack.

Spring Attack: You can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack

The kicker is this part"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. "

Jason once defined an attack action as a sort of a standard action which can't be combined with a charge. For many this was an indication that Vital Strike is not combinable with another 'as a standard action' melee attack option. I am too leaning toward that interpretation but I wish to God that Jason could spare some minutes of his precious time and clarify this and one or two other pressing issues that creep up on a regular basis.

Man with that chart a phylactery does go in the headband slot

Dang, yes. I was thinking circlet ... *sigh*

Well, no hard choice here. Any cleric in his right mind would go for the headband.

In PFRPG, headband/phylactery is one slot and circlet/crown/hat/helm/mask is another slot.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems.html#magic-items-on-the-body

I asked my GM about that list and he ruled that it is just providing examples and that a phylactery goes in the same slot as a headband. Rereading the text and looking at the body slot descriptions in the magic items chapter I think I should bring this up again with him.

** spoiler omitted **

So Full round for +19/+14 gives me an average DPR of 56.0 without accounting for crits.

Crits are a straight up 10% chance to happen on any swing because destruction aura gives automatic confirmation of crits. So crits chance adds 4.35 DPR per attack on average.

So with crits average DPR is 64.7. A +1 is worth 4.15 DPR. An extra attack is worth 37.6 DPR. For 10 rounds per day.

On a class that can wear full plate, can heal, and has lots of defensive buffs available. Worse, any other melee classes get the benefit of my +5 damage aura.

Three things:

1.) From PRD: "Unless otherwise noted, using a domain power is a standard action." So, all supernatural abilities from the Strength and Destruction domain are standard actions.
2.) Might of the Gods only applies to Str checks and Str-based skill checks anyway.
3.) A cleric needs the Feat Heavy Armor Proficiency to wear full plate

Btw.: I am still banging my head against a wall to come up with a feasible Eldritch Knight build. My conclusion so far that a straight up Wiz 5/Ftr 1/EK 4 has a humongous glass jaw unless he goes Sword&Shield.

so your saying my best bet is to chat with the pally and "take there advice." and maybe they might tolarate me a bit more then they do know. cause i have felt the lovely touch of a holy smite.

No, not at all. As soon as they get suspicious about your alignment change they might test you. A non-evil person has nothing to fear from a smite. If you take damage they will know you deceived them.

Depending on the wits of the players you can't fool a cleric or paladin once they get suspicious. A hearthy clap on the back spiced with Smite Evil from the paladin or a Holy Smite spell from the Cleric would reveal your alignement.
But actually you don't have to change or hide your alignement. As long as you seem reluctant to kill(at least when the darned do gooders ar around) and grudgingly heed their advice they might be considering you as their personal challenge instead of a menace to be dealt with.

Well, I know the purpose of this thread is to evaluate the DPR of a base class, but I was curious of what a char was capable of that had chosen to go for a prestige class. Of course you can't complete a PrC at char level 10 so I settled for: 'Is able to take all 10 levels of his chosen PrC till level 20'

Uhm, well - I swear my intention was to do a straight Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight build but I got somewhat distracted and ended up with the below abomination. I considered not posting this but since there is nothing to win and it would probably a good benchmark for more restrained PrC builds I'll post it and take the blame. As soon as I get time I'll try a straight Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple and Fighter/Wizard/EK build.

Discussion: This build gives up one caster level to gain a substantial +4 str and +2 natural armor boost from the Dragon Disciple prestige class. For that he also delays his entrance into the Eldritch Knight PrC by one level. Also his charisma bonus is just high enough to get bonus spells till 3rd spell level. Quicken Spell will never be an option for him since he took Arcane Armor Mastery and uses his swift action to reduce his arcane spell failure chance by 20%, allowing him to wear a mithral chainmail. Consequentially he won't be keen on getting the majority of round per level spells. Imho that is not a bad thing because he can't cast spells while raging and he probably operates best in a well rounded group where some real arcane caster can provide him with all the short term buffs he needs. Thanks to his Metamagic rod of Extend he should be able to keep up his mid/long term buffs(False Live, Keen Edge and Heroism) for most of the action a day. Unlike most other melee centred builds this one is very mobile(40 ft + expeditious retreat and access to the fly spell) and remains, thanks to his spells and bloodline powers a potential thread even when disarmed or stark naked.
Personally I'd trade the Belt of Giant Strength for a Belt of Physical Perfection (+2, +1 on two saves, AC and 10 more HPs) and make room for a second Rod of lesser Extend

Attacks (With the spells Keen Edge and Heroism running)

Normal : +21/+16 2d4+17 (15-20/x2) 44.43 DPR
PA : +19/+14 2d4+23 (15-20/x2) 49,14 DPR
Rage : +23/+18 2d4+20 (15-20/x2) 55,25 DPR

Rage+PA : +21/+16 2d4+26 (15-20/x2) 62,47 DPR

Just for giggles the Claws & Dragon Bite routine. Sorry no time to do the math.

Normal: +17/+17/+17 1d6+14/1d6+10/1d6+10
Rage: +19/+19/+19 1d6+17/1d6+12/1d6+12
Rage+PA: +17/+17/+17 1d6+23/1d6+16/1d6+16

Note: This assumes that you can apply Arcane Strike to your natural weapon attacks.

So pretty much Elcurblian is stuck at 65.84 unless someone can find a cheaper way to get another +1/+1 out of the gold after giving back the Ioun stone.

Nope, but how about multiclassing into Barbarian? A Fighter 9/Barbarian 1 would loose one fighter bonus feat at level 10 but gets a +2/+2 when raging. DPR would go up to aproximately 78.5. For a fully fleshed out build swap out your pale blue ion stone(+2 Str) to a pink ion stone(+2 Con) and take Extra Rage at least once. Due to the lower AC while raging taking Toughness and possibly Endurance/Die Hard might be a good idea too.

Edit: I just realized that this thread was about what each class is capable off dishing out. So multiclassing isn't really in the spirit of the thread.

[...]

However, that is this thread only. In actual gameplay, standard action attacks are a reality, unless you have another option. What other option does Jack have if a move is required to enter melee?
[...]

Amen to that, in my experience higher level combat mostly means that one side does his best to avoid full attacks. With the nerf of the floating shield enchantment 2-handed melee types don't have that high AC's anymore and slugging it out with full attacks against an big bad melee type monster means you will get clobbered really hard. Ok, a good cleric can keep you alive but It'll cost him a lot of resources. On the other hand the more squishy enemies will do their best to get and stay out of your reach. That makes good movement feats like (Greater) Vital Strike and Deadly Stroke more important than some people might think.

But, that is not the focus of this thread and that is fine by me. So far I got some good suggestions out of it.

DPR calculator, guys! Behold the bewildering bounty of bells, marvel at whistles beyond reckoning!

Yay, what a cool christmas present! Tejón, You're my hero!

That's a pretty cool Intimancer but it works like this:
R1: Move into position (or make a single standard attack), Intimidating Glare. Repeat until successful.
R2: Full-round attack, activating Shatter Defenses if you hit. Repeat until you hit. If fear drops off, go back to R1.
R3: Deadly Stroke, which activates Shatter Defenses if you hit, Intimidating Glare. If fear isn't up, go back to R1. If you miss, go back to R2.

That's just way too involved and way too chancy when combat generally lasts four rounds tops. Half the time you'll never get to use Deadly Stroke. That's not going to participate in the DPR races at any level.

Actually you can do it in two rounds and if the enemy comes to you or you can reach him with a 5' step.

1st round:
Delay for the enemy to act if appropriate.
Free action: Rage
Move Action: Possible 5ft step and Intimidating Glare at the enemy which is now most likely shaken for a freaking 1d4+1 rounds. This is so much better than the standard demoralize!
Standard action: Attack that if it hits makes the enemy flat footed. Cleave on some other enemy if possible.

2nd Round:
Standard action: Deadly Stroke + Power Attack on the flat footed enemy, if you hit you're doing more or less equal damage compared to an unhasted full attack higher AC enemies and the sucker is most likely flat-footed again since Intimidating Glare can last so long.
Move Action: Glare at another enemy or move after the first if he's not yet dead.

... repeat till death.

But yea, against one enemy that is not a tough melee monster or has a high AC or when hasted he'd most likely go toe-to-toe and devastate him with full attacks. Especially at later levels when he can take Critical Feats and make full use of the 15-20 range of his keen Great Falchion.

Very interesting stuff in here. Especially the DPR improvement percentages on Improved Critical and +1 to damage and +1 to hit.
But I would suggest including the DPR with a standard action and setting the Level up to 11 because a full BAB build gets his 3rd iterative attack and access to some very important feats that upgrade the DPR of both standard(drastically) and full attacks. Like Deadly Stroke, Improved Vital Strike, Two-Weapon Rend, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, ...

What about multiclass builds? I could add a Fighter/Barb based build based on the character I play in our Legacy of Fire campaign.

A good guide with solid recommendations, as usual. Thank you.
But I wonder why you didn't explore the dexterity centered Monk route. Ok, it is more feat intensive as you have to take Weapon Finesse and possibly Agile Maneuvers but imho it is well worth it.

Based on your 25 point buy example(Str is now 14, Dex 19):

- More AC and a better reflex save (2 points, 3 after the bump to Dex 20)
- 2 points better Acrobatics, Escape Artist and Stealth checks.
- Power Attack only has Str 13 as a prerequisite and you don't need a higher strength score to use it to its full potential.
- You might loose 2 points of damage from each hit but trading Dex for Str with finessable weapons will only marginally decrease your average damage.
- Ranged attacks(Shuriken) will really hit their mark.

If you stay with the rules as written you can not put a magic armor bonus on regular clothing items like a robe. There was a lengthy thread about that back in Beta but I can't find it and have no time to quote the necessary rules.
The gist of it is that only masterwork armor (listed on the Table: Armor and Shields) is eligible for an armor enhancement bonus. Spells like Magic Vestment have a special Paragraph so that the enhancement bonus can also be applied to regular clothing like a robe.
That said, you could probably make an Robe of Armor instead of Bracers, but it would count as an wondrous item.

Tholas wrote:

BAM! You're dead! Fighter:

** spoiler omitted **

Devastating Blow is only available in the Beta version of Pathfinder, not the final version.

Yea, and rightfully so. Should have read Deadly Stroke, fixed that.

You wanna mess with me?! BAM, You're dead! Fighter:

For maximum gain have your rouge friend with Shatter Defenses ready. Of course this works only against non-fear resistant enemies.

Incidentally I intend to play such a build right now in our groups Legacy of Fire campaign.

Animated Shield: You have shield proficiency, but will almost never use one, so an animated shield just means pure win. Get one if you can.

Hmm, I trust you are aware of the changes to the animated enhancement in Pathfinder?

Animanted: As a move action, an animated shield can be loosed to defend its wielder on its own. For the following 4 rounds, the shield grants its bonus to the one who loosed it and then drops.
...
If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it to end its animation as a free action. Once a shield has been retrieved, it cannot be animated again for at least 4 rounds. This property cannot be added to a tower shield.

Quickdraw might help to wield and loosen a shield in one move action but grabbing and putting away the shield while wielding a two-handed weapon needs a standard action. Of course wielding a one-handed weapon or have exotic weapon proficiency with either a Dwarven Waraxe or a Bastard Sword will help a you could just fight one-handed for the next four rounds.

I am not reading that many 3rd party products, but here we go:

Dario Nardi's Secrets of Pact Magic
Because it takes the Binder class from Wizards Tome of Magic to the next level. Especially the fluff is top notch.

Dreamscarred Press Untapped Potential: New Horizons in Psionics and High Psionics: Soulknifes
Because they make the Soulknife a veritable and fun class.

The crunch in the above books might be a wee bit wonky or abusable at times, but that's why God created GMs(...to spoil the players fun). ;-)

And of course: The Indulgences from Nicolas Logue.

Tholas wrote:

I really really wish Jason would come back and settle this topic. As much as I like the Pathfinder RPG I am more than a bit miffed about the mushy and imprecise language. The Vital Strike Feats are a prime example, even the sole reply Jason gave to that topic is rather vague.

I would not expect a new answer.

I think neither the feat description or his answer where vague.

I don't think we have an answer yet.

Vital Strike is an attack action, btw, which is a standard action. You cannot use it as part of a full-attack action.

This was his only reply and that in response to the preview of Valeros where the text wrongfully implied that he can make a Vital Strike on a charge. So, the only thing Jason said that an attack action is an standard action and not a full-round action.

Basically I can't understand why he did choose this mushy wording:

"When you use the attack action, you can make one attack ... "

Instead of

"As a standard action, you can make a single attack ..."

or

"As part of a standard action, you can make a single attack..."

So, all we know is that an attack action is a standard action but it is rather unclear if you can combine Vital Strike with other "As a standard action, you can make a single attack ..." feats. The later still says you make an attack( action?)

Btw.: Sorry for the typos and bad grammar, have to hurry ...

I really really wish Jason would come back and settle this topic. As much as I like the Pathfinder RPG I am more than a bit miffed about the mushy and imprecise language. The Vital Strike Feats are a prime example, even the sole reply Jason gave to that topic is rather vague.

Déjà-vu

I am not certain that NO damage modifiers are multiplied.

The feat specifically mentions certain ones:
"but do not multiply damage bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack)."

There are many untyped damage sources. Weapon spec, Arcane strike, favored enemy, and even weapon training are untyped bonuses. In addition the feat does not mention enhancement bonuses (it says weapon abilities but not enhancement bonuses), so the +x would also multiply. It is definately kind of hazy, as it seem to imply no additional damage is multiplied, but then it mentions specific kinds and leaves others out.

Deja Vu

Please read Jasons comment from this thread

Hey there all,

Couple of notes. Generally speaking, when reading feats, the descriptive sentence at the very beginning is just that, descriptive. It is not generally rules text.

As for the Vital Strike issue... just roll the damage dice for the weapon twice. Everything else is as normal. If you normally deal 1d8+4 with a longsword, you would deal 2d8+4 with a longsword using Vital Strike.

And once again I feel the unresistable urge to quote this:

"If something seems too good to be true, it probably is."
- Caelic's 10th commandment of Practical Optimization.

1st (7/day) - bless, cure light wounds, divine flavour, produce flame, remove fear, shield of faith

Uh? I wonder what Sarenrae would taste like ... Plum? *runs for cover*

On a more serious note: Great stuff, I can't wait for the Beta playtest.

In the "Combat Round" Section:

"When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

So I would say that any effect that last 1 round ends before you act in your next round. You must beat the intimidation check by 5 to apply Shatter Defenses the next round.

D'ho! I never noticed that rule. Well, that makes Intimidating Glare even more desirable.

To me, Samurai cannot be ignored as a Noble Class as well as a Martial Class. I agree that the fighter will work, but I think a few bard levels are necessary to open up skills and give one the points to use. Perform for some of the Noble Arts that are not Craft such as Tea Ceremony, Ikebana, etc...Knowledge History...Profession Yojimbo ;)...Perform Haiku or Koan...and at first level a Bard also gains the ability to Inspire Courage, which seems fitting.

In the RotRL gazetteer is a fighter variant that would fit the bill:

Class Abilities: Numerous martial academies around the Inner Sea region teach weapon skill, tactics, diplomacy, and other tools useful for war. Fighters who attend these schools may choose to take additional class skills. Taking this option replaces the bonus feat gained upon taking the first level of fighter.

Class Skills: A fighter trained at a famous war college or fighting school gains the following class skills (in addition to the normal fighter class skills): Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

An academy from an analogy of medivial Japan might grant other class skills.

The Knight from PHB2 is IMO a perfect fit for the Samurai class. Won't attack a flat-footed foe, ...

Maybe, but it depends on the school(Ryu). Some schools will teach you to evade fighting as much as possible, but if it's inevitable you can exploit every(fair) advantage to win.

Hey, here's a follow-up question

Dazzling Display lets you try to apply the 'shaken' condition to some enemies, but the duration is still 1 round.

Shatter Defenses lets you 'flat-foot' an enemy that is shaken until the end of your next turn, and Deadly Stroke lets you thoroughly whack someone who is flat-footed or stunned.

I'm pretty sure the way this tree is supposed to work is

Round 1: Demoralize someone with Dazzling Display
Round 2: Shatter the Defenses of a Dazzled someone
Round 3: Strike Deadily at a Shattered someone

but by RAW this won't work, because the shaken condition ends before your round 2 starts. Otherwise I'm pretty sure the only way a Fighter can even use a Deadly Stroke (can we please call this 'Deadly Strike'?) is with Blinding Critical or Stunning Critical, both of which are higher-level options.

So, the question: are enemies shaken by a Dazzling Display supposed to be shaken for longer than 1 round?

Edit: I just realized that you wrote "your round 2 starts" and not "your round 3 starts". So I took the liberty to remove my first and incorrect answer.

Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause your opponents to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten opponents in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you.

Reading the rules your enemy is shaken for one full round and thus until the end of your next standard/full-round action. Of course you can't delay or ready an action then.

For maximum fun and profit take a look at the Barbarian rage power Intimidating Glare: Go into rage and use your move action to intimidate one adjacent enemy for at least 1d4 rounds. That leaves your standard action to hit him in the same round, making him flat-footed... :->

Tholas wrote:

So, if you apply a metamagic feat to a Level-0 Spell it effective becomes a higher level spell and must be handled as such. If you can learn/cast it in a 0th level spell slot it is a cantrip, not the other way round.

And yhet in my first post to this thread I posted this:

The PRD also states that "Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell...", so a metamagic enhanced cantrip is still a 0-level spell.

Yes I know, but when you read the whole paragraph it should be clear the the intent was that only to emphasize that the DC does not go up. The "Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal." part supports my standpoint. Once again if it can be cast in a 0th level slot it's a cantrip, otherwise each casting goes again your daily alotment of spells at that level.

This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

Well, I am bowing out of this discussion. Let's just agree to disagree.

Lehmuska wrote:

I see a lot of statements claiming that a spell is the same thing as a spell per day (or spell slot), but no supporting evidence. Could you perhaps provide me with some?

Can you provide any text supporting the idea that it isn't?

It seems very clear to me that the rule you are quoting refers to the spell's effective level for purposes of casting it (which is increased by metamagic) rather than its effective level for determining its effects (which only heighten increases). Assuming the latter would be taking the word "level" out of context; that paragraph is talking about spell slots, not about spell effects.

Amen!

Types of Feats

Some feats are general, meaning that no special rules govern them as a group. Others are item creation feats, which allow characters to create magic items of all sorts. A metamagic feat lets a spellcaster prepare and cast a spell with greater effect, albeit as if the spell were of a higher spell level than it actually is.

So, if you apply a metamagic feat to a Level-0 Spell it effective becomes a higher level spell and must be handled as such. If you can learn/cast it in a 0th level spell slot it is a cantrip, not the other way round.

... and anyone bringing up non-level adjusting metamagic feats from splatbooks will be battered into submission with a large trout!

That's interesting. I seem to recall something about me being "able to use my existing library of 3.5 products" if I switch from 3.5 to PFRPG.

I have to quote myself

Please, it was never the intention of Pathfinder RPG to fix the WotC splat book madness.

This of course includes new cheese induced by changes and additions from PRPG. As it is several broken combos and possible fixes(Divine Metamagic anyone?) where discussed in Beta and the official word was that this might be unfortunate but is of no concern to the design process.

Diego Winterborg wrote:

And actually your point goes both ways - why are people so willing to twist and bend the system until it breaks in order to get a very limited advantage? At best I find it infantile and af worst I consider they might have a dubious agenda.

Dude, if we pretend there's no problems in the rules, they'll never get fixed. I consider it infantile to close your eyes and refuse to see the problem.

Please, it was never the intention of Pathfinder RPG to fix the WotC splat book madness. If we stay in PRPG and a GM allows your particular cheesy rules interpretation I don't see a problem, if he allows it with Sanctum Spell he should be aware of the consequences.

From this thread:

Hey there all,

As for the Vital Strike issue... just roll the damage dice for the weapon twice. Everything else is as normal. If you normally deal 1d8+4 with a longsword, you would deal 2d8+4 with a longsword using Vital Strike.

Vital Strike is an attack action, btw, which is a standard action. You cannot use it as part of a full-attack action.

Personally I think it is pretty obvious that only damage dice are affected, so excluding anything that doesn't add damage dice(as in: A variable amount of damage determined by rolling dice) is not strictly necessary.

Now I just wish that Jason would clarify what differentiates an attack action from a standard action.

So have any clues been given as to what the other two classes might be?

Unfortunately no, but I would love to see a new take on the Spirit/Vestige Binder Class.

Edit: Of course, there is always Dario Nardi's excellent Secrets of Pact Magic. As it is, Dario has already provided an quick conversison guide to Pathfinder RPG.

Actually by my reading (and I know this is contested area) everything that is normally multiplied by a crit expect Strenght mod is added as extra damage when using Vital Strike. Even the examples of weapon abilities says Flaming, not weapons enchantment. And Weapon Specialization, weapon training and Morale bonuses are not weapon abilities or precision based attacks. They are not a strength bonus either.

Roll the damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together, but do not multiply damage bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack).

I think it is pretty clear that only damage dice are affected, so excluding anything that doesn't add damage dice(as in: A variable amount of damage determined by rolling dice) is not strictly necessary. (I agree that the mentioning of strength is a bit confusing)

And some proof from the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Preview #2:

All of this assumes that Valeros begins his turn adjacent to an enemy. If not, he can charge up and make a single attack with his longsword using both Power Attack and Improved Vital Strike. This devastating attack is made at a +23 bonus and it deals 3d8+21.

If you do the math you will see that he just gains another 2d8 from Improved Vital Strike.

Jason didn't introduce it. That was "true"/available in 3.5,

The 3.5 core rules clearly define that the AC bonuses from Bracers of Armor and regular armor don't stack, the stacking of the special abilities is a non issue because Bracers of Armor can't have special abilities in 3.5. That was introduced in the Patfinder RPG Beta. (I am pretty sure the AaEG, MIC or any other 3.5 splat book don't have additional rules but I can't look it up right now.)

His crit was 4d6 + 2x10(str) + 2x6(weapon+spec+inspire) +2x6(power attack) + 2d6+6+6(vital strike+weapon+spec+inspire + power attack)

Total 6d6+56. More then 50 damage limit for death from massive damage. Monsters normally have around 60 hp but I gave them about 20 extra for that fight.

Vital Strike only multiplies the base weapon damage dice. So it should be something like this:

Normal: 2d6+24
VS____: 4d6+24
Crit___: 4d6+48
VS+Crit: 6d6+48

For a critical hit even 6d6+56 would be nothing out of the ordinary for an halfway optimized and buffed 2h melee char at that level.

Last night I leafed through the magic item chapter and found the Bracers of Armor entry slightly expanded.

Bracers of Armor
...
Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

The possibility to wear both Bracers of Armor and normal armor to gain the cumulative specials and the best AC was discussed in some threads in the Beta. No more cheese for the wicked. ;)

A mighty cleaving weapon allows a wielder using the Cleave feat to make one additional attack if the first attack hits, as long as the next foe is adjacent to the first and also within reach. This additional attack cannot be against the first foe.

In total, it would allow you to make three attacks in total (one against your main target, then a cleave to two adjacent foes).

Wouldn't the wording imply that you can make a second attack against a subsequent target?

So, you have two enemies, you hit the first and, if you hit, can cleave the second two times. Yea, I know it sounds to good to be true and the term "first attack" and "first target" should be translated to eg. "the target you've hit before this one" and not "the first target you've hit this round"

The wording here seems a bit obtuse to me.

Indeed *scratches his head*

Like the thread title says, can I use Extend Spell on Color Spray? It says it doesn't work on instantaneous duration spells, but Color Spray has duration "instantaneous; see text" and the "see text" part makes sense to Extend.

I don't think so since you must differentiate between cause and effect. The cause is an instantaneous cone of clashing colors, the effect is that creatures in that cone have to deal with various effects, depending on HD. Imho Extend Spell will only work on the spell itself and not on the effects it caused. Empower Spell would be the right feat for that. (As long as the creatures in question don't have more than 4 HD.)

There's nothing to discuss. Vital Strike is a standard action. Deadly Stroke is a standard action. You can't use to standard actions at the same time. You may houserule it, of course, but after Jason's clarification, there isn't really anything left to discuss in this regard.

Then why do you keep posting? *sigh*

stuff

I would be happy to discuss Vital Strike, but not in this thread. If you wish, we can continue this discussion here