Thehigher cause's page

BigDTBone wrote:

There is absolutely no one better to judge the acceptable level of quality than the consumer.

I dont know if that's true.

The consumer as a whole is a broad term. The bigger the consumer base, the more base the product must be to appeal to the broadest group of people. Appealing to consumers on a broad level tends to make things dumbed down and uninteresting.

The Consumer is ultimately a big o' ball of bi-polarity. Too many people want one thing. I think its best if the product is simmply based on the image of what the devs think it should be, and that the community hopefully agrees enough to keep the company afloat.

How can that not be true??

James Martin wrote:

Nicos wrote:

And I think is valid to point this out. I have no idea why, but the quality of the ACG is a problem. I have seen what otherwise have been and still are paizo fans saying that they are very dissapointed with the book, and that they will not be buying anymore 1st printing unless they totally know beforehand what is in the book. Personally I can't honestly recommend buying the physical copy, not until a second printing with all the Erratas.

Certainly it is valid to point out a very specific example of a product you find to be less than acceptable. It is not valid to say wild things like "Well, a lot of people are saying that the quality is slipping and everything is terrible and you're doing too much and I blame the Paizo." That would be a gross over-generalization, which is exactly what I said in my original post.

Who else is responsible for the quality of their books if not Paizo? It there an editor in the ether and that dude shafted them? It seems a perfectly valid complaint to tell the publisher of a book that you are not happy with the quality of their book.

As to the packed schedule, one (if not the only) common comment shared by all the Paizo folks who post regularly is how busy they are. This has been a veritable mantra for 4 years. There always seems to be too much going on and not enough time to do it. Many posters noticed the drastic drop in editing quality between the CRB and APG but many others apologized for Paizo, then UM and UC (skipping other product line mentions such as the adventure's armory that got stats for a buttery knife in two separate printings) which had some major issues, one of which left references in for an entire level of spells throughout the book that wound up on the editing room floor. That's when everyone I knew decided to stop buying first print books from Paizo. It came as no surprise that ARG and UE had issues, as well as no surprise that the ACG would have issues.

Good editing doesn't seem to be...

Very Well spoken +5

James Martin wrote:

The amount of errata a product receives probably says more about the number of people playing the game and the complexity of said game than it does about the quality of the game.

Well, that could have been the case, but at least with ACG a lot of erratas/FAQ have to be with editing issues and unclear language. And there are a lot of those.

And I think is valid to point this out. I have no idea why, but the quality of the ACG is a problem. I have seen what otherwise have been and still are paizo fans saying that they are very dissapointed with the book, and that they will not be buying anymore 1st printing unless they totally know beforehand what is in the book. Personally I can't honestly recommend buying the physical copy, not until a second printing with all the Erratas.

I agree 100%

Thehigher cause wrote:

I feel that there are a number of rules that need some work how about you?

One rule I find needing the be changed is damage reduction. It worked for a while but now not so much.
5/magic for low level people is good
10/magic or higher is usually nothing for players about 4th level as everybody has a magic weapon or can have or a temp one
It just not the great defensive ability it was.
3.5 rule was 5/magic, 10/+2 weapon and so on. And the weapon needed have a plus two not just 2 pluses worth. I'm not sure that is the right answer either.
thoughts?

I see you really don't like TWF. I just wonder why?

TWF?

Actually - I believe you're thinking 3.0 where there were various difficulties at getting through DR/magic. I'm reasonably sure that 3.5 did away with it.

Yes that would be the point. Not for all monsters but for a few big baddies. Now by the rules many big baddies either die in 1-3 rounds, or have to be buffed up with lots of spells or adding many more HPs. It all seems like an unnecessary exercise.

Rogues SA loss via concealment. Means you cant sneak attack some in the dark (ironically making a dark alley the last place you want your ROGUE fighting in).

Either by changing how concealment via darkness works, or how SA works.

I agree, and its funny...

The rules are different, but I haven't really noticed either being better exactly. I do feel that the change produces a different emphasis between the two systems on raw pluses versus weapon properties.

The other DR types are still somewhat difficult to overcome without the appropriate weapons (or blanches, or spells or class abilities).

There are a lot of low level spells and/or abilities that overcome then easily. Yes at very low level it take up spells that have other uses, but at level 5+ not so much and at 9+ many casters have so many spells its almost a non issue...

Thehigher cause wrote:

I feel that there are a number of rules that need some work how about you?

One rule I find needing the be changed is damage reduction. It worked for a while but now not so much.
5/magic for low level people is good
10/magic or higher is usually nothing for players about 4th level as everybody has a magic weapon or can have or a temp one
It just not the great defensive ability it was.
3.5 rule was 5/magic, 10/+2 weapon and so on. And the weapon needed have a plus two not just 2 pluses worth. I'm not sure that is the right answer either.
thoughts?

I think the magic DR is fine.

Consider the ramifications beyond just the PCs. If a DR/10 magic monster barged through a village, the townsfolk would be devastated. Thank goodness there are some heroic PCs around to help hunt down the beast and save the town.

The point is that when the monsters and DR was created there were few ways around it. Now there are many. This means the toughness of monsters is degraded. The game is Player vs monsters, so DR/10 magic should be devastated, unless there is 1 1st level divine caster there.

I feel that there are a number of rules that need some work how about you?

One rule I find needing the be changed is damage reduction. It worked for a while but now not so much.
5/magic for low level people is good
10/magic or higher is usually nothing for players about 4th level as everybody has a magic weapon or can have or a temp one
It just not the great defensive ability it was.
3.5 rule was 5/magic, 10/+2 weapon and so on. And the weapon needed have a plus two not just 2 pluses worth. I'm not sure that is the right answer either.
thoughts?

Thehigher cause wrote:

So how would you determine if there are problems?

Discussion. Play testing. Study. The same things we have been doing.

And polls. So long as you are aware of selection bias and the myriad other effects on the results.

But that's not what your reply was about. You were casting him as saying that there are NO problems with Pathfinder, and that simply wasn't true.

Well that was not what my reply was about. I was saying is that the current state of play is not working for myself and at least 2 dozen people I regularly play with. Perhaps its just different styles of play. I have to say I think there a number large holes in the system that should be looked into by somebody, either them or a three party. It's hard to find anyone who thought the last book was at all useful. In the last year or so the quality for pathfinder products has been on the decline. Perhaps everything is just find and my groups are just abnormal.

Personally I'd accept a patch or fix like Pathfinder Unchained or PF 1.5. I'll even accept a sister game like the Beginner Box getting beefed up a notch. But I'm not too keen on a Pathfinder 2.0. I've only been playing Pathfinder for less than three years and almost all problems I see on the forums have never been experienced at my tables. If I wanted to play with a different system I have a ton of options either on my shelf or literally one block away from where I'm sitting now. I can play Fate, 5e, True20, Savage Worlds, Dungeonworld, Anima or Dogs in the Vineyard. I like all those games, but I'm spending my time with Pathfinder because I like it and want to play it. I have plenty of people around that do not play Pathfinder that I could play with (I work at a game store) but I chose Pathfinder. [/QUOTE

I agree there are games, I don't why we can't try to improve the one I like best.

Thehigher cause wrote:

DrDeth wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Only if you believe a poll will actually determine the real problems with the system and not the most popular problems...

Or just the problems that a small % of posters think are the problems.

Really? So you think there are no issues in pathfinder? Or that only a few people are troubled by them?

No, he means that such a poll will not necessarily get the actual problems with the system.

It will get what a vocal minority thinks are the problems with the system.
And there is no guarantee that those problems with be the actual problems with the system.

Which is what I also said. Let me know if I misread you DrD.

So how would you determine if there are problems?

TOZ wrote:

Only if you believe a poll will actually determine the real problems with the system and not the most popular problems...

Or just the problems that a small % of posters think are the problems.

Really? So you think there are no issues in pathfinder? Or that only a few people are troubled by them?

I've played in and GMed many games, and I've seen many players being unhappy with the pathfinder system. I've seen it before at the end of 3.5DD.

It is true that a DM can remove or change anything about the game, that why a buy games and splat book so I don't have to. I don't have the time to change everything that bothers me. Nor do the other DM's. I've cut back buying Pathfinder material and may stop it completely.
Of the people I know all have stop buy dead tree copies, and all but one has stopped PDF.

If I'm one of the very few people who sees problems perhaps, then I should just stop supporting Pathfinder...
I would hate to think of that...

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I have to say that nothing in the book really interested me.

Can we say rushed book? My players want me the bad this book!! I've never had that happen in 30+ years...

ban not bad typo's are spreading ..

I have to say that nothing in the book really interested me.

Can we say rushed book? My players want me the bad this book!! I've never had that happen in 30+ years...

Thelemic_Noun wrote:

Is it just me, or does the 5e core rulebook smell really freaking weird?

Outgassing, as a general rule, sucks.

Not as bad as the last pathfinder book, "who's named cannot be named"

Wow people seem to like the book a lot more here, than they do a round here. I know 15 people who bought it and no one liked it. 3 said it was okay, 6 people thought it might be good if majorly edited, 3 said it was the poorest edited and/or playtested book yet, and 3 wanted there money back. All of them suggested they will not buy book without someone scouting them out first.

I thought there was some good in the book, but was shocked on the very poor edit and balance. I was concerned that something had changed with the production staff.

I hope this is just a rare bad apple, rather than a trend.

On another note about pathfinder system, Has anyone found a solution to the increasing time that higher level combats rounds take? I noticed higher the level characters are the the player take more and more time to complete there rounds. This is more common with spell casters...
Things I've already tried include :
1. Timer and/or time limits
2. Spell cards
3. Spell templates
4. Printing out spell books...

I'd be open to suggestions

Thanks

Thehigher cause wrote:

They disliked it greatly...

Some of the reasons given:
1. Wanted to play a Roleplaying game not rollplaying game, were dice were way,way more important that what the players do. Have a great plan but rolling very poorly kills that.

2. They really liked some parts to game system, but game mechanics and rules prevent logical and rational actions from being useful.

Frankly - if you don't like crunchy mechanics to some degree - Pathfinder probably isn't the system for you. There are bunches of more simplistic systems.

Myself - I find that the more simplistic systems tend to make it more luck based as the very few rolls mean that law of large numbers doesn't apply.

Or, if not just a few rolls being the deciding factor, it becomes extrememly subjective based upon what the GM thinks should happen based upon your plan/description of said plan. [/QUOTE

Yes your right other systems can do this. I was just wondering if anyone had been playing a lighter pathfinder system. Many but not all found the box set too basic...

Thehigher cause wrote:

1. Wanted to play a Roleplaying game not rollplaying game, were dice were way,way more important that what the players do. Have a great plan but rolling very poorly kills that.

The GM needs to be aware that not every situation requires a dice roll. If the story would be enhanced by a check to see if the PCs succeed, then a check should be made. If there is nothing to be gained by rolling the die to see if they succeed, just let them succeed.

I agree completely. In general I only kill players for bad or really bad ideas like lets bug the evil wizards guide because we can... lets poke the sleeping dragon..

I guess part of the problem is that many of them come from a nonD&D background or left At or because of 3.5 madness..

They disliked it greatly...

Some of the reasons given:
1. Wanted to play a Roleplaying game not rollplaying game, were dice were way,way more important that what the players do. Have a great plan but rolling very poorly kills that.

2. They really liked some parts to game system, but game mechanics and rules prevent logical and rational actions from being useful.

Hi

I think that they should take a poll and find out the top 100 biggest
bugs/rules/gripes with the game and produce a PDF to at least address them...

Is that a reasonable request?

Hi

I run many games at conventions and other one time events and I was wondering if anyone else had encountered a problem with trying to introducing new players to the rule system. This is not just playing 1st level characters in a simple encounters.
I've found may good/great roleplayers will not play pathfinder games because of the complexity of the rules. I know a can use other systems and just use background materials. I was hoping not to have to do this.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Sorry to hear about this Aaron,

You will want to take is to contact the original merchant that you purchased the books through and let them know you received misbound copies. Most businesses will offer an exchange for a new copy, however if they are unable or unwilling to assist you with this please send me an email to customer.service@paizo.com so I can follow up on this with you.

- Erik Keith

Thanks I try that...

Aaron

Still its a strange alliance, one wonders if some of the back story was removed for space considerations??? Or that they needed another story line...

First, let me say I am not attempting to sow dissension or disatisfaction, or anything like that with this post. I am a loyal Paizo supporter, and have purchased a singular amount of Pathfinder/Inner Sea products (originally hard copy then switching over to PDF in the past two years) and have been extremely satisfied and impressed with the majority of my purchases.

That being said, and I will of course reserve final judgement until the actual products are in hand, but has anyone else noticed the "fall off" in the interest level/potential value of the listed upcoming releases, or even of the products that have recently been released? Inner Sea Combat? What makes this a necessary book? Is there really that much of a difference/addition of combat features in the Inner Sea that warrant an entirely new book? Or an alchemy book?

The reviews on the desert material (People of the Sands and the new Osirion book) were so universally mediocre I chose not to acquire them, which is actually a big deal, as I've been rabidly awaiting and purchasing each monthly digital release scheduled for pretty much the last two years, and have been happy with every one, even the "Blood Of" books.

I hope there will be such a significant surplus of NEW information to warrant a large, hardcover book devoted to the Gods of the Inner Sea when there have already been, what, five publications devoted to that area?

Speaking for myself, and I reiterate, this is for MYSELF, I'm really not trying to start any $hit here, I would be much more well served by some more area books that haven't been covered yet. Nidal, perhaps?? And I'm ALWAYS down for a new Monster Manual, I don't care how many I have. New monsters will ALWAYS get my money.

I guess what I'm asking is, does anyone else get the feeling the new releases are reaching for the pocket book? Maybe there are a lot of folks clamoring for an alchemy book...or an Occult Mysteries book. I'm not, that's for sure. But I'm just one guy.

With a pretty stellar buying record...

Just...

I somewhat agree with you, for a long time I bought almost everything they printed, Now I'm planning to skip the robot path completely...

I just finished rereading Path of the righteous, and I noticed 3 of the books had pages falling out after 2-3 readings. Book 2,5,6 have pages completely lose. Book2 has about 1/3 of the pages came out as a block.
I not seen this before in your books... Has something changed with the bindings?

Thanks
Aaron

Are we sure there ever will be more mythic level materials?

I think Thehigher cause was commenting in the sense that he likes to play bad guy campaigns.

In my homebrew world I'm not even using metallic dragons. Civilized races are rare, having only handfuls of small settlements. There is much danger to avoid or confront. That kinda helps not need metallic dragons. That said, I've also taken away the second half of a dragons alignment restriction. So, all red dragons are short tempered and impulsive, but not all of them are inheritly selfish and evil. Of course this is still a rare occur dance since most of the world IS selfish and evil lol

Not so, I like to play games where life can get complicated... Just there seems to be a very low number of good creatures..

Thehigher cause wrote:

Not one to start a riot, but I was wondering why no good dragons?

"The only Good Dragon, is a Dead Dragon!" ;-) Someone had to say it, might as well be me.

Though I confess I'd be far more interested in Imperial, Primal, or Outer Dragons, bumping the Metallic Dragons to the back of the line (I am acutely aware I am in the minority, but as a game for over 30 years I find I need far more antagonists than allies as miniatures).

Who said they were allies??

Not one to start a riot, but I was wondering why no good dragons?

Ahh, I so want to play this, but I dont think I'll find a GM that is willing to run it... We'l see when summer comes.

I agree my player have zero or less interest in playing pathfinder in any techno mode... They will play Prirate with guns barely, and will not go Russia... The love sc fi games just not in a pathfinder...

I might play in such a game but would not run/ buy it...

Don't let the haters sway you, Erik! Bring on the Lovecraft! I can't wait to get my hands on that shiny gug, and I have a small army of denizens of Leng in my collection already. >: )

I not that i dislike Lovecraft, its just the opposite, I love love them but poor figures are not much better than none... Also I know that this set is not a continuation of the woc sets. Would it be so bad to look into what was done prior art? They have made better figure in the hero click line...

I'm not a hater, but anyone who dislikes anything is so labelled. I like many of the figures, but given the vast number made by many companies a complete look at what is out there might help...

You can start the hate again...

My god, why can't we get a gargantuan green dragon? I am sick of settling for a modded McFarlane or a substandard toy version. Can we start a petition or something? People have been waiting for this one for nearly a decade when WotC first started making the Gargantuans. When Paizo picked up the torch on this, I was overjoyed...and yet they make other colors again and again. I don't care who makes it or how much it costs, just freaken make it already. At this point, I'd easily pay twice what I payed for my colossal red, and I know about 3 dozen other people who feel the same way.

I agree 100%, and more to the point the selection of monsters needs some work... I still don't understand why we are still getting some crappy version of DD mini make 10+ years ago. The price point is poor and the Blue dragon is okay at best. And don't get me started on the Lovecraften creatures...

I found the elements good, some only okay, but useful.

Malach the Merciless wrote:

OK here is the deal. Paizo is a business. A business is trying to make a profit. By said business making a profit, they pay taxes and employ people.

Paizo is also a small company, so they are not making say what Wal Mart makes.

It does not matter who prints, if I was the cheapest printer, and printing them in my back yard, and got a quality product out, and on time and was breaking no laws, Paizo has the choice to print with me.

So, Paizo goes out and prints American which increases the cost say the book 20%, 30%. So instead of a reasonably $50 for the book, it is now $65, $70, etc. How much is sale do they lose? How many employees can they not keep cause of cost of the book.

Yes it is shame many countries don't have the labor protections that we do in the US.

What is the Moralistic thing to do? Morals don't keep your bottom line cost effective.

AS for your leisure time, what about your computer? Your cell phone, your clothes, your sports.

I have nothing to answer to this, except that all of this is so american. I am not american, I am from Europe. And I don't agree with your statement, as nothing in this world justifies crushing other people. No cost effectivness, no profit margin, nothing. And yes, I know it is legal for Paizo to print in China. And I trust Paizo, I am sure they did their researches and picked up chinese printer that doesn't exploit people.

As for your idea of market ("as long as it is legal, I can do it") let me remind you that 100 years ago slavery was legal. That did not make it more moral than than now. Again, I am not politicizing it. I just happened to read where they print it on brought the issue here. And if "I go down", as you wrote earlier, well, I can always get up.

I disagree with you, I've always said it was better to print in the USA and pay more, than using cheap labor and very questionable production in china.

While I like a lot about The products, I have a few questions:

1. Why in the world do player almost always require, dealing with very evil groups in adventures. I at first liked that some encounters had that as an option. Now my players find it as bad as being captured.

2. Some of the choices of the mini being produced.
1. Red dragon, other companies have done the red dragon to death.
While some for these are rare and costly, many are very cheaply and frankly look a lot better.
2. Rare villains that a singular. These would be much better product in special pack for various modules or series, like HeroClix.
3. alternate painted figures in the same set.

3. And Having content repeated in other products.

It may sound harsh but, I really like most of the products, and these things are bugging me more and more.

These aren't half bad, but I for one am rather hoping that we're getting close to done with humanoids for this set.

One of the biggest mistakes DDM made was putting out far too many PC/NPC minis. Keep in mind, over the average game there are a handful of PC's and a whole lot more monsters.

I get that this is a themed set, but the AP has a lot of monster too :P

I imagine you're not out of them yet ^^

I agree 100%. If would prefer more monster, less humanoids. Also more monsters Pathfinder specific, not done in other lines.

Thanks

Thehigher cause wrote:

All in all the figure sets are just too much $$ for the value. I will buying only a few selected figures. The cost of a set is just unjustified.

Basically this. I like the look of some of these - but at those prices, no way.

I agree 100%

Hopefully the secondary market wont be too painful to pick up a few here and there, but that does rely on resellers seeing it as profiable to buy and split cases at whatever price they can get - otherwise I suspect (and fear) this line is dead in the water at those prices.

Another agreement.

Thehigher cause wrote:

Deanoth wrote:

Thehigher cause wrote:

Anguish wrote:

Without a question, I'd want to see 30-40 mold sets in the future.

Packaging doesn't matter to me... the cardboard can be recycled as can the plastic trays. The overall volume of "waste" material is actually minor. By definition purchasing these is harmful to the environment. If I can get over that, I can get over a few more boxes.

Recycling is not as easy in all areas, the point why produce such a large amount of "waste" in the first place. Reduce-recycle-reuse. Most plastic reuse requires a lot of energy.

IS anyone sure it is not corn plastic that wizkids is using in their packaging at all? If they are it is biodegradable then.

Yes, I'm sure the Chinese version EPA keeps up with the latest green tech.

And burning plastics is even worse.

So just because it is Chinese means it can't be Corn produced plastic at all eh. I will keep that in mind then. BTW I did not mention anything about burning plastic at all either.

Might want to keep in mind just because it may or may not be made/packed in China does not mean that it can't be done with biodegradable plastic made with corn.. they do ship that type of thing all around the world just in case you did not know that.

Very few countries use corn based anything but us. The cost of growing corn is just too high. That goes for ethanol as well (we couldn't either if not for massive tax breaks and govermental support. Have you seen any of China's factories? I have.

All in all the figure sets are just too much $$ for the value. I will buying only a few selected figures. The cost of a set is just unjustified.

Thehigher cause wrote:

Anguish wrote:

Without a question, I'd want to see 30-40 mold sets in the future.

Packaging doesn't matter to me... the cardboard can be recycled as can the plastic trays. The overall volume of "waste" material is actually minor. By definition purchasing these is harmful to the environment. If I can get over that, I can get over a few more boxes.

Recycling is not as easy in all areas, the point why produce such a large amount of "waste" in the first place. Reduce-recycle-reuse. Most plastic reuse requires a lot of energy.

IS anyone sure it is not corn plastic that wizkids is using in their packaging at all? If they are it is biodegradable then.

Yes, I'm sure the Chinese version EPA keeps up with the latest green tech.

Without a question, I'd want to see 30-40 mold sets in the future.

Packaging doesn't matter to me... the cardboard can be recycled as can the plastic trays. The overall volume of "waste" material is actually minor. By definition purchasing these is harmful to the environment. If I can get over that, I can get over a few more boxes.

Recycling is not as easy in all areas, the point why produce such a large amount of "waste" in the first place. Reduce-recycle-reuse. Most plastic reuse requires a lot of energy.

Tinalles wrote:

Holy sticker shock, Batman!
I have to agree. This is way out of my price range!!!
I will only be buying a few of the singles. I hope you know what your doing...
After the 15% Pathfinder Advantage discount, Heroes & Monsters cost me $233.74 plus $16.68 shipping, for a total of $250.42. But a case bundle of this set is going to cost more than twice that, after the discount and before shipping.

It took nearly a month of deliberation before deciding to proceed with the Heroes & Monsters purchase. It was at the very outer limit of my spending range for a product that I will use once every couple of weeks at best. I appreciate Paizo's commitment to quality. If this had been spread out across two sets separated by a few months, I might even have gone for it.

There are a lot of sweet minis in this set. But at that price, all at once? No.

This.

I am choked up to admit it (I honestly have a tear forming), but I just cant do it. I have to be realistic.

Between now and August I MIGHT just break down and get a standard case and a Rune Giant. But even that is over $400.

There is absolutly no way I can do a bundle and a giant.
I have no choice but to no longer be a Case Subcriber. :(

In a lot of districts the interior packing plastic is not recyclable, it is of too low a grade. Upside, the minimum amount necessary was used.

Regardless less packaging is still better, the R's are ordered in order of most effective, so it is reduce, reuse, and then recycle.

I agree with you 100%.

Thehigher cause wrote:

pres man wrote:

My view on the minis.

** spoiler omitted **...

My question is as a whole was the set good value? Would you buy a full case again or just the best one?

Well, I'm probably not the best person to ask, because I almost never purchase cases. I rarely try to spend more than $1.50 per miniature anymore, preferring to pick up commons/uncommons on the secondary market.

I would say the set is on par with some of the better Mage Knight sets (with the correct base being a definite bonus). I'm just happy to see more fantasy miniatures, having been "forced" to pick up heroclix that I think can work for my games (of course the lord of the rings set was also nice).

So, I will definitely pick up singles in the future sets, but I doubt I'll preorder again for a while.

I agree 100%.

Agreed.

More companies mean more choices. I am saddened by every RPG company closing in the past - even the ones I did not patronize. Being a gamer is about choice, not being shoe-horned into a specific niche.

To Gary Gygax, and all the other that followed, and to all the author's who's works inspired Gary in the first place, I raise my cup in salute.

I hope we can all agree with more choices are better that fewer.

My view on the minis.

** spoiler omitted **...

My question is as a whole was the set good value? Would you buy a full case again or just the best one?

Thehigher cause wrote:

I generally also liked the set, I'm not sure

that the first DDM would be best set to look at.

Comparing first set to first set. The big changes in technology might not make it a fair comparison though. Still needs a wash though. :)

Agreed, also and few figure could be much improved with some extra details.

I am a self-proclaimed D&D minis fanatic. While my collection does not completely cross the line into hoarding it certainly dances across that line on occaision.

So when WotC announce the end of their D&D minis line I was rather sad. Say what you will about random pre-painted plastic minis in a box (and yes I know there are a lot of 'haters' out there), I amassed a far greater and useful collection this way than I ever did in the days of the metal minis from Ral Partha and Grenadier.

To put some perspective on this I have something in the neighborhood of 5000 WotC minis. Yes I probably could stand to sell a few.

Nonetheless I was very excited when I heard about Paizo launching a pre-painted plastic minis line. While I love to paint minis I just don't have the time anymore and I have a shelf full of unpainted 40K, Warhammer and LotR minis that "I'll get around to someday." So buying more unpainted Pathfinder metal minis as cool as they might look was really out of the question. (The first step is admitting you have a problem).

I guess I didnt pay attention to how these were going to be packaged because when I went to my FLGS this past Saturday I was really shocked at how tiny the box was. Then I realized it must only hold one mini. "Well 3.99 for one mini, I guess thats not bad." I thought to myself.

The girl behind the counter (yep I said girl, and yep she works at a comic / game store, and yep she even reads comics and plays games. No she does not look like Penny from BBT. No I am still not going to tell you where she works.) says to me "a bit smaller than you expected?"

I had to snigger (thats usually my line). "Uh, well, yeah actually."

The comic book shop girl then went on to explain they were single minis, and randomly packed.

"Randomly packed? WTF?"

I had to buy one. Somehow I managed to keep my minis hoarding urge under control enough to buy but one. Actually it was not that great a feat, I felt obliged to buy one, but thats a different story.

I got out to my car and...

I agree with many of your points, this packaging has got to produce more waste had figure. While there a number of good figures, I will not be buying more sets. I simply but to nice ones.