Thkot Tal

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber. Organized Play Member. 103 posts (105 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character. 1 alias.

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They could kick it or use their sword like a golf club.

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Due to the Poppet and Automaton special psuedo-construct status, they don't have an immunity to things like Lycanthropy, so that route is open for Beastkin.

They can also die, so Duskwalker rules could apply normally.

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The Munitions Crafter feat says, "You also gain the Alchemical Crafting feat and four additional formulas for 1st-level alchemical items," which is different from the Alchemist class feature: You gain the Alchemical Crafting feat, even if you don't meet that feat's prerequisites, and you gain the four common 1st-level alchemical formulas granted by that feat.

Is this intentional for the Gunslinger to gain eight 1st level Formulae (four from MC and four from AC)?

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I don't think one stat being better in the meta is a good reason to exclude options; it just sounds like a complete lack of faith of Paizo to balance it. (While I get the need for PFS balance, the books does officially endorse moving Will to Charisma for home games which fits the actual descriptions of them better.)

The psychic guru (Wis) who's in tune with universe predates the psychic genius (Int) as an idea. The third eye is a deeply spiritual and religious concept.

Heck, most psychics (as in real world people claiming to be psychic) would be charisma-type, forcing the world to bend to their will and pushing ideas into or out of others (or lying convincingly enough to people to make them think that's what's happening).

There's plenty of room in the game to have the scifi Int, the guru Wis, and the spoon-bender Cha operating off the same chassis.

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Unlike Shadowdancer, Caster receives no form of Darkvision in any of its feats. It also cannot target itself to see through its own Darklight focus spell or be immune to that spell's damage, as it can only target allies.

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You're not the only one missing it. The choice was omitted from the book. Just an editing mistake, so you'll have to come up with a choice for him to give. Maybe an offer to join the Triad or help blame Nidal?

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keftiu wrote:

What Ancestries to we expect to see in this? Obviously humans, elves, and dwarves, and I expect both some iruxi and maybe the return of playable shabti, but anything else?

I can’t help but want an anthropomorphic jackal or antelope option.

Yes, please. How about Girtablilu? The size/centaur-build may block them though. Would love something scorpion-based though.

Not for playablity, but I'd love to hear more about sphinxes and their interactions with humanoids.

And put me down for that Osirian struggle of a modern nation and the ancient history it is built upon.

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Archetypes have precedent with Oozemorph and Golem Grafter, so I'm not sure about making it compete with Ancestry. Either way, there's a path for Chimaera: Lich-Bear-Dwarf becomes Lich-Ooze-Dwarf.

I'm digging the idea, regardless.

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Ascalaphus wrote:

PF2 traits don't do quite as much as PF1 creature types do. They're more like hints that "if you're designing a creature of this type, you might want to give it those abilities", whereas in PF1 it was "if it's this type, it automatically has those abilities".

So I guess Conrasu just eat and talk...

I know that's how tags work; that was my intention. I just wanted to make sure it's intentional that they aren't like Leshy and not a mistake like "Magic spiders can't make webs or cast spells."

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Are the Conrasu supposed to follow the standard humanoid way of eating/subsisting? Do they just shove food into their soul-ball? They are a plant, but that tag doesn't inherently give them anything like Leshy's Plant Nourishment.

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I'm really interested in what class options the dead could bring. Not necessarily being dead/undead, but maybe just imitating, like Revenant as a Barbarian Instinct.

A Bard whose Muse transcends death. A Witch's Patron tied deeply into Necromancy. An Alchemist whose research is focused on becoming immortal or mastering resurrection (not mundane healing). A fringe Druid Order that views undeath as a part of life.

Anyone interested in the Shabti? Technically dead.

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CorvusMask wrote:
Sidenote, am I correct to interpret that while spider form anadi can't use held items, it can still carry/hold them?

It does say exactly "can't use", but not pick up or hold and I think picking up a reasonably sized object without resistance qualifies as a simple Interact. Besides, if not, how are you going to hold snack-trays or blankets?

Also, huzzah for Rule 0. Still weird about the armor thing, but that is a blessing to players, don't nerf that. Just going to rule that as their weird transformation magic integrating the armor worn as a human into their bodies better than regular trans magic.

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I appreciate how the new ancestries aren't treated as new additions to the world. The shisks and golomas have just been here and the other people of Mwangi knew; the first edition books were written by foreigners who probably thought they were demons. The golomas even have a long-held belief for why their different from the others and stay away. It really sells that the information is FROM the people of Mwangi and not just OF them.

There's also the hooks in place for adding more about the shisks in the rest of Garund and the golomas anywhere.

And then there's the Conrasu, who just exist. Where did they come from? "IDK, science experiment?" Why hasn't any other group mentioned you before? What are relations with other groups? I love these tree-wearing space-balls and I want to know more.

I also like the effort to say, "The boggards aren't that bad." Suggesting a boggard PC isn't too far-fetched. If you can befriend boggards, you're like family. Contrast that with the Charau-ka, who are still absolutely evil. If someone can point me to a page that has anything remotely positive to say about these demon-monkeys, I'd appreciate it.

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I agree that the hybrid form does need a reason to exist, but I feel the real form needs it more. Also, hybrid form competes with an improvement to the fangs attack and to the wacky shenanigans Friendform.

Maybe the hybrid form can get something to give it a special purpose? Maybe something like: When you assume your hybrid form, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to intimidation checks against any non-Anadi creature who saw the transformation. Regardless of the result, the creature is immune for 24 hours.

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Two more sessions in the Fortress of Sorrow.

The party went up against the Clay Golem and discovered it's infamous curse. A kobold's cold breath and a little holy water were able to take it down, but both fighters were cursed in the process. Then hammer-wielding monkeys showed up and the group was forced to retreat into the swamp.

After healing their curse (I reduced it to a 5th level effect, but kept it's DC), the party returned to discover new guards around the fortress. Once again, they lured them down and removed them. Then they dealt with the Hammer Bros.

Zim and Gargrun attempted to kick in an enchanted door and viewed Dahak's face. Ortzi also got to see him before dispelling the cursed energies, thus clearing the way forward. Zim was unaffected by the vision and actively sought to see it again with every door in the building.

The party then decided to check the side rooms and met Izoleth the Hellhound. The group peacefully approached, fed her, and tried to leave the route open for her to leave. Unfortunately, none of them speak Infernal, so the result of this action is unknown, for now.

One of the eloko in the next chamber surprised the party with a size change, but the party's cautious healing would keep them safe. Orbeck's bear, though, is becoming more outclassed the further they go. Throwing rocks, on the other hand, still going strong.

The chimera prompted some interesting questions, but as Zim and Orbeck (the Draconic speakers) aren't the most charismatic, the group had to fight one. The loyal one was KO'd by Gargrun and the other dragged him away. The party debated the morality of letting more of these creatures just wander into the jungle.

Finally, the group reached Belmazog and overheard her desperate prayer to Dahak and that she was attempting to sacrifice Kyrion. Zim rushed in and was immediately shot by the skull of Dahak, but pressed on to attack one of the priests. Gargrun followed suit, with Ortzi soon after. Orbeck decided to cast Darkness onto the skull's flaming eyes to hinder it's attacks and also to become invisible while the fighters wrecked one priest. The other priest ended up looping around and onto Ortzi's rear which took Ortzi a round to realize.

The whole group was shocked when Belmazog sprayed acid all over the fighters and the priest that Gargrun knocked out. Black, blue, close enough. (Amusingly, due to all the fire immune things throughout the Cinderclaws, they never tried using fire on the cult leader, even after this acid attack. Although, Orbeck did suggest throwing her into the bowl Kyrion was in.)

Zim kept himself glued to Belmazog, Sudden Charging to keep up as she tried to cast spells. Leading her around to a KO of Opportunity from Gargrun, while Ortzi's hooves smashed the other priest. I was surprised that she successfully saved against Orbeck's touch of idiocy during this runaround.

During this time, the skull of Dahak was still trying to see through the darkness, occasionally getting a successful shot. With two nat twenties (one against concealed, one as the attack), it took Orbeck down. While he did survive, him being invisible, and still in the danger zone, meant rescuing him was a team effort as well; with Zim serving as a target for the skull as Ortzi released an area heal.

The party was then able to attempt to deal with the skull, eventually resorting to Zim just prying the eyes out of it. Then the group broke Kyrion's chains. But conversing with the dragon and interrogating the cult leader will have to wait for next time. There are several questions to ask, including: what is that thing in his chest?

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Uvalo (Ganzi Conrasu/Bounty Hunter/Neutral/C. Cleric of Kalekut)

When Uvalo self-actualized it was while being under the subtle influence of the Maelstrom; this influence was also felt upon their tree which grew not bark, but sickly yellow scales. Despite looking more like an aberration than anything and a weakened connection to the aeons, Uvalo took to the role of corrector with gusto. When attempting to avert an attack by cultists of Angazhan, Uvalo caught a glimpse of the god Kalekut and, through him, survived. Now, Uvalo follows the path of a nightmare, stalking the wicked to help bring balance to the world.

Deathwish (Frightful Goloma/Gladiator/CN/Braggart Swashbuckler)

It's hard to say where Deathwish came from; she's always telling a different story and it's not like many care about that. Always ready for a fight to put on a show, Deathwish is as dangerous as she is reckless. Under all that bravado though, whose to say what's really going on? Why is she so willing to run headfirst into danger?

Cloudberry (Sylph Leshy/Acolyte/CG/Wyrmblessed {Cloud} Sorcerer)

A former familiar of a druidic Cloud Dragon, Cloudberry has set off into the world on their own with wide-eyed curiosity. So many new places to see and friends to meet. There's a gentle breezing blowing toward adventure!

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The party traveled down to the ruined temple of Dahak, where the last pillar stood, the Red one. As they approached, they noticed its guardian, a serpentine dragon. Zim was naturally excited and believed the creature may have been enslaved like the Grippli. Orbeck turned Zim invisible and, for the last time, Zim overturned a pillar. Zim then engaged the bida in conversation. The dragon seemed interested in the prospect of a kobold clan serving it. It had no loyalty to the Cinderclaws, merely mutual distaste for the Ekujae. The bida would think about Zim’s offer, considering how far away it would be. The rest of the party were concerned, but were not interested in fighting it.

The group then made their way to the Fortress of Sorrow, where Belmazog was up to who knows what. Scouting the perimeter, the group decided they were not ready yet. However, as they returned to Akrivel, Orbeck caught dysentery and the group encountered a pair of pterosaurs. After scaring the creatures off (and failing to infect them with malaria), the party met a trio of half-orcs. Ifiok, was the leader’s name, and she sought to kill a monster. After some questions, the party agreed to assist and tracked the fae down over the course of a few days. Ortzi attempted to peacefully speak to the kishi, who was carrying a bag the oracle thought contained a celestial, but the shapeshifting target charmed him. When Orbeck frightened the kishi, it bit Ortzi’s face. The fight was easily won, even discounting the bear Orbeck called in. The bag did contain an angel and they healed Orbeck’s disease before heading back to their interrupted task.

Upon reaching Akrivel, the party received a few gifts, including some items Renali found in a boat; she would be taking the golden idols that she found with them back to their proper places. The group took some time to visit Breachill as well to finish preparing for their confrontation with Belmazog.

However, the party had one last goal before that. They had heard of a human settlement and wished to see it, but they arrived too late to save it from a fire. The ruined town was no longer on fire, but it contained a pair of rather upset elephants. After confirming that elephants cannot breathe fire, they attempted to subdue them. Hearing a voice, Orbeck flew over and discovered a trapped man. Eventually, Gargrun freed him and in turn, Edka (the villager) calmed the elephants. Ortzi tended to the elephants’ wounds as an apology for the group hurting them.

The group’s plan to attack the fortress encountered a snag, though. They got lost. Gargrun was separated from the group and the rest were attacked by vampiric sloths that dragged them into the trees. The group barely survived thanks to their magic, Zim’s surprising agility, and the exploitation of a mindless ooze (which Orbeck later froze to death). Meanwhile, Gargrun had dealt with another group of Cinderclaws. The dead cult members’ blood was used for emergency blood transfusions right there.

Sneaking around the Cinderclaws’ fortress once again, the party encountered a crocodile and lured it away. It swallowed Gargrun whole, but he ripped his way out of its mouth and the creature fled further from the fortress. The next part of the plan was to lure the guards off their watchtowers. To this end, Orbeck summoned a giant mantis to grab one and drag him over the swamp. The swampseer’s croaks alerted the other guards (and likely the whole fortress) who came running. A well-placed fireball and some good ol’ melee dealt with them. Zim even got to show off how good he is at fighting blind.

All that’s left is the fortress’s internal defenses and they’ll save the dragon from the princess priestess.

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I'd love a winged ancestry without arms that has to hold things with their talons like a real bird. Limit real flight to a high level feat and just let them flap to hover five feet off the ground or as high as they could jump (descending slowly every turn). Probably small, like a Roc-equivalent to Kobolds. Con penalty for hollow bones.

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Mine, part 2: Chaos Reigns!

The party quickly tried to figure out what ailment had befallen Gargrun and Ortzi realized good magic could deal with the vines. In the process of this, the butchers made their move. The party was able to deal with them (and the sabosan) easily. Although Gargrun had knocked out one of the butchers, Zim would later kill it.

The party’s next move was to investigate the noises that had started coming from the bunkhouse. Zim and Gargrun rushed in, attacking wildly. Orbeck wanted to try a new spell and hit a line of the charau-ka in the bunk with it. To his surprise (and mine), they powered through it. After clearing the bunkhouse, the party again discussed if they should continue their attack or back away so the spellcasters could recharge. They decided to push their luck.

Orbeck’s plan was simple: he would use his Wand of Web, while Zim and Gargrun threw Gerhard’s black powder bombs, then Orbeck would hit the pillar and its sticky, flammable guards with a fireball and Ortzi would throw down some divine wrath. This worked almost perfectly! Except the butchers avoided much of the blast, the pillar itself was entirely unaffected, and the explosion woke up a couple of creatures living in the pool of water nearby.

The party realized they had a problem when the strange creatures, naunets, swam into the air after them. The pillar, which missed its first shot on Orbeck, struck Zim, stunning him for some time. The butchers and the swampseer that had escaped them earlier quickly emerged from the pit. There was also a boggard warrior that had avoided the web and was racing up the ramp to join the fray.

The party ended up pulling back toward Hezle’s office. Zim, who had been dragged back by Ortzi, was the primary target and ended up downed first while desperately swinging at cultists. Hezle joined the fray, intent on driving the chaotic beasts back, as the party fought the remaining cultists. With Ortzi collapsed, Zim dead, and Gargrun and Orbeck fleeing from the fight, the nauntets lost interest and returned to their pool. Gargrun double-back around Hezle’s residence to save Ortzi, but the former Cinderclaw beat him to the punch. The surviving party was able to kill the last few cultists, including the boggard warrior who finally reached the fight when it was almost over and never even managed to attack.

The party has now considered returning to Akrivel to attempt to resurrect Zim, but it’s not clear what effect their failed attack on the pillar will have. The pillar itself remains completely unharmed and its incredibly dangerous guards (who themselves are essentially unharmed!) make changing that very unlikely.

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Name of PC: Zim
Class/Level: Fighter 7
Adventure: Cult of Cinders
Catalyst: Charau-ka Butchers with Naunet assistance (also not resting!)

Having taken out most of the mine's cult members (and befriended Hezle), the party decided to drop Gerhard's bombs (and a fireball) onto the Dragon Pillar. This removed the weakest obstacles, but angered the Naunets, who flew up to attack. The remaining cult members climbed after and eventually surrounded the party. Zim standing in the forefront (and having been critically stunned by the pillar), unfortunately, was a major target, but thankfully the only one to die. His oracle friend Ortzi survived thanks to Hezle and the party was able to take the butchers out. The naunets, seeing the party flee, lost interest as the pillar still stood.

The party has placed his body in a bag of holding, intending to revive him as they flee to Akrivel.

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I'd really love to see a non-humanoid ancestry. Something that doesn't have two arms and two legs, such as a quadruped that has hands for feet.

On the topic of human heritages: rare abilities that people are born with that aren't tied to any culture or ethnicity do exist, such as extreme flexibility or ability to eat almost anything. They could also be something basic like having a stronger immune system or a higher pain tolerance.

I'd also like Crab-people. Pinchy claws! Bubble spit! Scuttle strafing!

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Thanks, glad people are enjoying this. The dice roller giveth and the dice roller taketh away.

Oh, I forgot in the first post, that this campaign is using the Ancestral Paragon rule, as each book does focus on a base ancestry.

Heading off from the temple, the group found the mine in the afternoon. The party got close and examined the large area from the west. What was seen was not a great sight: a large vulture-man on a pile of bones (Ortzi recognized it as a demon) and a caged dinosaur (just an animal, Orbeck knew) to the north, a bat-like-thing (unidentified) and several cultists to the south, two buildings to the east, and huge hole in the center. Garry was sent (invisibly) to peer into the hole and found a dragon pillar, weird worms, and, naturally, more cultists working in the mine. Garry also sneakily opened the northern shack’s door, allowing the party to see a small, reptilian humanoid inside. Was this Hezle?

A bit of debate about what their goal followed, but the mine was clearly too dangerous to just charge in. There was no way for the party to know how any given group would react to their presence. Orbeck suggested trying to turn the demon against the cult, but the rest of the party were not convinced. Instead, the party decided to sneak back into the jungle and re-approach the mine from the east. Zim was able to the keep the party from getting off-track and was also picked to approach Hezle.

Zim snuck into Hezle’s office and attempted to talk to her. She was surprised to see another kobold and he did name-drop the Thornscales, so after he confirmed her clan was safe, she was more than willing to answer his questions. She told him why the kobolds had joined (and later abandoned) the cult. Zim was excited to hear that multiple dragons were close to the cult, but not as happy to hear that one of them was locked up. He signaled for the group and they arrived to ask a few questions of their own. Namely, why the cult was mining poisoned gold, the location and defenses of the cult’s base, and what was up with the demon.

The Scarlet something or other had given a golem and chimarae to Belmazog and taught her the ritual that created the pillars in exchange for the tainted gold. The pillars, as it turns out, were not just an anti-Ekujae trap, but powered a defensive trap for the fortress. Hezle gave the group a map of the locations of the pillars and the fortress. She also warned them that the mine's pillar had attracted strange creatures to the water.

Now, the party had to deal with that pillar. While Orbeck could drop a fireball or two on the pillar from above, that could lead to the cultists on the surface surrounding them. Then again, since Hezle mentioned the internal conflict of the Cinderclaws, disguising himself as a boggard and actively antagonizing the charau-ka might work too. In the end, the group decided that most of them would hide near the building to the south (ready to strike) while Orbeck found a vantage point on a tree some distance south of the mine. He realized too late a problem with the plan; after erupting a fireball from over four hundred feet away, he had no other ways of attacking from the distance and apparently no ways to expedite his return.

If you were a… doctor, er, how would you react to your patients just being reduced to ashes by a surprise explosion of flame? The swampseers of the Cinderclaw mine scattered, searching for its magical source with one finding the rest of the party. His destructive croak alerted the rest of the mine to intruders. The party had no problem removing two of the druid-like boggards before the Vrock (the vulture demon) saw them.

As the party began their toughest fight yet, one of the swampseers alerted Hezle to the attack. She decided that the best way to deal with them was to release the dinosaur and agitate the mud spiders. This was part of the plan the party had thrown together. Unfortunately, the Mokele-mbembe was drawn to the smell of burning meat and attacked the butchers to the south-east, who slayed it.

The Vrock’s attacks were hard and fast; it disoriented Ortzi and Gargrun with a screech and thrashed the fighters. Orbeck, in his haste to return, ended up passing by a pair of swampseers and evaded/endured their attacks, but they backed off when he neared the demon. The demon protected by mirror images danced up a lightning storm downing Zim, who was healed by the pair of spellcasters. Before it was stabbed to death by Gargrun, it even infected the dwarf with some kind of spore. Of course, the MVP of this fight was Ortzi who was already ready to take down a (non-fiery) demon thanks to his Searing Light spell.

The party then dealt with the two swampseers that had followed Orbeck, as vines burst out of Gargrun’s skin/fur. [TO BE CONTINUED=>

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First of all, big thanks to both the GM Reference and Community Creators Threads, especially MSAbbadon for all those maps!

Day two of the adventure and Orbeck already wanted to magically brute force through the collapsed stairs. However, Helba had remembered a secret passage into the basement the group could use and gave them a map and a request: free the Bumblebrashers’ bear. With Alak joining them, the group snuck into the dark dungeon. The bear was (along with dragons, to Zim’s excitement) to the north. So, they quietly avoided the suspicious figures in the central passage and eavesdropped on the Cinderclaws in the western most room. Zim and Orbeck came up with a plan: with ghost sound, Orbeck would make Zim sound like a mighty dragon to impress/terrify the boggards. Sadly, this did not work and the boggards mocked this new kobold. The fight followed quickly with Gargrun knocking out one cultist and Alak tearing through the other.

With one cultist captured, the party went east. Gargrun, who opened the door, was immediately shot by Werrt. Orbeck threw out a color spray to disorient the cultist and his charau-ka followers and the rest of the party focused their effort on the archer, killing him quickly. The monkeys surrendered and were moved back into the bedroom. Alak would guard the three prisoners here, while the party continued.

After a sequence of unbearable barricade bear puns, the group located Big Bumble. Ortzi convinced the bear that they were okay to not be mauled and the group attempted to lead him back outside. (Orbeck also found information about Hellknight burial customs, more on that later.) But a bear is not subtle, especially not one squeezing its way through narrow halls. The birds guarding the central passage were provoked by, and swiftly killed by, the bumbling bear. Epsilon realized that these colorful birds, like the grauladon, were native to far warmer climates than Isger. The bear would escape into the woods upon reaching the surface, but Helba was alright with that.

Returning into the basement, the group decided to search the southern wing next; Orbeck didn’t want to mess with dragons. This wing was a tomb with several animated skeletons. The group took a defensive position behind a splattering of grease. Ortzi was the MVP of this fight: he unleashed a healing torrent on the undead and his divine lance vaporized their leader. The floating helmets in the next room confused the group as to what exactly they were, but a threat, they were not.

Investigating further, the group found the remains of a ritual and a passage leading away from the citadel. That would have to wait, as they also found some rings, scrolls, and a symbol of the elven goddess Alseta. One of the rings had been sought by Alak. He was grateful to its return, answered their questions about the undead, and, when asked, gave them permissions to take the weapons from the tomb, if it would aid them in dealing with the threats in Altaerein. You see, the party had come to a unanimous agreement previously that taking from the dead was acceptable unless it involved grave-robbing.

The party also took this opportunity to interrogate the Cinderclaws. They realized they were dealing with two unrelated incidents. First, the Cinderclaws had indeed entered through a portal deep under the citadel for reasons related to draconic god of destruction, Dahak. Second, a necromancer had attempted to commune with the dead Hellknights and accidently triggered a ward that raised some of the buried corpses. The necromancer had apparently came from, and fled back to, a long eastward tunnel.

The group decided to investigate the “dragons” next. Upon entering the northeastern chamber, the group was assailed with rocks by screeching monkeys. Zim and Gargrun were taken down immediately. Ortzi healed the fighters, while Orbeck and Epsilon fired back at the charau-ka; the former copying their tactic, the later with arcing electricity and crossbow bolts. In the end, Gargrun KO’d one of the cultists while the other two were shot and stabbed to death. Orbeck then decided to sneak around while invisible. He found the “Mitey Dragons” empty lair and a pool with a pair of boggards. Ortzi ended up showing what exactly happens when a frog is struck by divine lance.

The party then investigated the strange, apparently doorless passage in the central hall and found a secret area of the tomb… and two wights. The party attempted to lead the undead through the narrow hall with Gargrun keeping himself in the way as a living shield. The group were caught off-guard by one of the wights tumbling past the dwarf, so the duo could assail him from both sides. A clever shot by Epsilon removed her head and her companion was smashed by Gargrun. The prize for this, a glimmer of proof that undead ward had been disabled and a bunch of weapons. Zim attempted to extol the merits of pointy sticks to his companions, but only Gargrun was interested… or he would have been if it hadn’t been for one of the Hellknight Lictors had her Handwraps of Mighty Blows in her coffin. However, the party wasn’t prepared to deal with affliction that the wights had inflicted on Gargrun and so they returned to the surface along with their prisoners.

The group rested until dusk and, feeling stronger than before, returned to the basement once more. The eastern wing was all that remained and it was obviously the area that would be the most difficult, right? The arrangement of doors at the end of a wide corridor just screams, “This is where the climax shall occur!”

Inside, the party smashed a creepy doll and found a work of art made by another of Alak’s relatives. Orbeck summoned a giant solifugid to scout ahead and discovered a pair of kobolds. Zim got along well with Pib and Zarf and the duo were pleased that their home had been saved.
Finally, the group discovered a gelatinous cube. Gargrun and Ortzi decide the best course of action is to punch and kick the ooze. Ortzi is agile enough to avoid being engulfed by it, but Gargrun… Thankfully, Zim was able to cut him out, along with a skeleton which Ortzi immediately dusted. (Shout out to Ice Titan for that addition.) This area also prompted some OoC discussion about other campaigns and their tropes.

Now feeling like the basement was secure, the party decided to investigate the necromancer’s tunnel. The passage led them far and up into a basement. Gargrun recognized this as the Pickled Ear, a tavern in Breachill. As the business was closed for the night, the party decided to return to the citadel and go to the tavern during the day.
The tavern’s owner, Roxie, was willing to speak about the tunnel after the party helped drum up some business. Zim demonstrated remarkable arm-wrestling prowess, by the by, undefeated. Turns out Calmont’s employer, Voz Lirayne, does “weird skull magic” and has used that tunnel multiple times. Ms. Lirayne hasn’t been seen for a few days too. The book store was the party’s next destination.

Unsurprisingly, the store was locked up. Epsilon pried open a back window and no townsfolk noticed him despite his skin glowing as he did it. As the group had no evidence that Voz was connected to any crimes, it was unlikely they’d be allowed to barge in legally. Inside, Gargrun triggered discovered a dangerous trap, Orbeck stole found some spell scrolls, and Epsilon and Zim located actual clues: Zim, that Calmont’s method of summoning the fire mephit had been stolen from his employer, and Epsilon, that Voz believed herself to have found a back-door to Alseta’s Ring. Gargrun recognized the name “Guardian’s Way” as an old wooden fort further from town than Citadel Altaerein. Voz’s other notes gave the party insight into her personality, but again, nothing criminal.

As the fort was the only lead, the group followed the wizard’s trail. Upon finding the fort, the group crept under the trees. Zim, clad in heavy armor, snuck up on the rangers in the tree-fort. He motioned to his companions, “Stabby or talky?”
“Talky,” they gestured back.

Zim attempted a peaceful discussion with the half-orcs. They were uninterested and, when he refused to leave, attempted to kill him. Epsilon, who now recognized the rangers as wanted criminals (Bloody Blades), electrocuted one to death. Gargrun rushed to his friend’s aid and knocked out the remaining two. The party briefly saw another member dart into a small building just behind the platforms they had claimed. While the rest of the group attempted to sneak up on another Blade, Orbeck decided to wave at him from the central perch. The ranger responded with arrows and Gargrun, in turn, responded with fists.

The Bloody Blades’ leader, a hobgoblin named Dmiri, entered the fray with her remaining follower. Her defensive fighting style proved very difficult for the fighters to deal with, but was no match for the Power of Rock. The group took the equipment from Dmiri’s stash and prepared themselves for entering the cave Orbeck had found while he was throwing rocks at the mountain’s moss. During this time, Gargrun hauled the three living bandits back to town. They’d deal with the dead ones later.

Gargrun returned to the party just in time to enter the cave. Evidence pointed east, so the party went north. An armored corpse caught Zim’s eye and he attempted to free it from some spider webs. Where did the webs come from? Maybe it’s the spider-esque creature that just tried to bite Epsilon. When the creature released a large quantity of spiders, Ortzi splattered the swarm with a sound burst. Violence led to the creature’s surrender, but the party let Epsilon decide what they should do. He asked what the Tixitog (the word the creature claimed humans called her) what she could give them. She offered them first spiders (her food), then the armor of the corpse (Zim liked that), and information. She warned them the “Skull Lady” who arrived recently and the goblin that isn’t a goblin who’s been here long before the Tixitog.

The party realized that the two paths they had both would lead to Voz, so they split in two groups. Orbeck, Epsilon, and Zim would sneak from the north while Gargrun and Ortzi (in human guise) would approach peacefully from the west. Voz had prepared for an attack; the sound burst had been blatantly obvious, but still was willing to listen to the duo. They claimed to be from Breachill, which wasn’t completely false and Voz wouldn’t consider much of the town as worth acknowledging, but their lies about why they were there (Voz isn’t a librarian, for one) and claims of ignorance regarding the bandits made Voz too suspicious of them and ordered her minions to attack.

The fight was short-lived, with only the weaker skeleton was destroyed and a few arrows and spell being flung before Orbeck shouted for the fighting to stop. More honest discussion followed, albeit still cloaked in secrecy. Neither the party nor Voz were fully open about why they were there, but both knew of Alseta’s Ring and were willing to work together to reach it. The party treated her with caution; they spoke nothing about the incident at the citadel, the arsonist, and obviously their investigation of her home.

Voz claimed her belongings and informed the group of where her progress had stopped. She led them through miles of tunnels that her minions had cleared and into a chamber of spiders. Voz’s undead champion ironically proved a useful meat shield for the group as they killed all but one of the spiders. (Gargrun with another KO.)
Soon after, the party met Renali, from whom Voz kept her distance. While she tended to the surviving spider, she weaved the tale of how she came to be in this cave. She had entered through the same portal as the Cinderclaws and had no way home. The group rested and prepared to deal with the dangers that Renali warned them of.

The party once again decided to have part of the group sneak from one side while the rest approached their target openly. The target this time was a goblin sitting on a bone throne surrounded by goblinoid skeletons. Zim hopped down in front of the self-proclaimed king and asked for permission to pass. Not impressed with Zim’s visible equipment, King Ralldar demanded a skeleton with the head of a spider and Zim retreated to fetch.

The party did find another human corpse in this area and there were plenty of dead spiders too. Easy enough, but Voz had a better idea and put a spider on her champion. Not trusting Voz in the slightest, Ortzi prepared to destabilize the undead if Voz had it attack. The skeleton impressed Ralldar, who would now allow the kobold to pass, but Zim asked if his tall friends could come with him. The goblin king demanded tribute from each that wish to pass. His next demand was the arms of an elf.

Zim returned to the group and asked Orbeck how attached he was to his arms. Very, it turns out. However, Zim had a clever idea. He had Orbeck take a few of the spare weapons the group was carrying and the two returned to Ralldar. In full view of the goblin king, Zim took these arms from the elf and laid them before Ralldar, claiming to have solved the king’s clever riddle. The ego of the goblin stroked, he would allow the elf to pass, but he had more demands for the kobold’s remaining tall friends.

Ralldar had been offended by a spider that walked like a man. He demanded her. The party however was completely oblivious to who, or what, the goblin was demanding. Orbeck summoned his solifugid once again and tasked it with the acrobatic stunt of walking solely on its back-most pair of legs. It almost succeeded, but this displayed offended Ralldar who revealed his true form and attacked.

The greater barghest was toughest opponent the party had encountered. He easily crushed Orbeck’s summon and brought Gargrun down as well. Voz and Renali stayed out of the fight, but the champion was already in place to assist. The killing blow belonged to Zim. While Ortzi tended to Gargrun, the android and kobold squeezed into the fiend’s treasure horde.

As the group continued forward, Gargrun hung back to keep an eye on Voz, who seemed too interested in the bone throne. (His player was sick this session.) Zim and Orbeck bumbled into some mushrooms with some moderately annoying effects, but once they discovered that Prestidigitation removed the spores, clearing a path was easy. Garry was sent into the hole the mushrooms had surrounded to confirm a safe landing before the group descended. They would have been able to spy on the Cinderclaws in this pit, if Orbeck hadn’t been carrying an everburning torch.

The crowded collapsed chamber proved advantageous to the party. Orbeck enlarged Zim who effectively served as impassable wall to the Cinderclaws. The cultists were pinned down and most of the fight was a shoot out with both sides struggling to hit each other past the armored dragon. Malarunk, the leader among these cultists, smote a solifugid that Orbeck summoned and worked his way toward Zim to do the same. He kept his healing magic reserved intending to use it on himself, but misjudged his ability to dodge an arc of electricity from Epsilon.

Claiming his tools (Ortzi is collecting religious symbols), the party proceeded cautiously into Alseta’s Ring. They identified the statues and discovered that one of the arches reacted to an arrowhead that Malarunk had. The portal inside was unstable, too dangerous to use for now. The only thing worth examining was the large door to the north. When Zim attempted to open it, it spoke in elven, which Orbeck translated for the party. The door’s demand was met by Ortzi, who still held the symbol of Alseta. To the party’s surprise, the door was actually a statue that walked out of the way. The room it guarded contained almost nothing… except for the deed of ownership to the citadel. The door returned to its post before Gargrun and Voz arrived.

Voz was pleased; she now had a clear path to the Ring. These “heroes” had been very useful. While she examined the arches, she idly mentioned that in her research she had heard of a monster that emerged from the doors. The party claimed that they dealt with it and that sadly there was nothing of value in this lower vault.

The matter of how to leave the chamber finally came up. Orbeck’s suggestion of using magical attacks to tunnel up the stairs was quickly shot down and the group (with Voz) returned the long way around. Renali would follow some distance behind.

Thus, the party was ready for the next adventure: home ownership!

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I love it. I want it. This is a design I can get behind. I really love that the second plant isn't just bigger plant or green human. I wonder how its soul mechanic will compare to Leshies and Androids.
"Hello, I am literally a piece of spacetime here to beat your rear." That planar essence bit makes versatile heritages super-easy to justify too.

The most important questions though: what's it based on? Is it from African myths, folklore, or religion? Seems Animism inspired to me. Also, what's the plural? Conrasus, Conrasues, Conrasi, Bonrasu?

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I'd like to share the progress of my players in Age of Ashes.

First, the cast:
Zim (Spellscale Kobold Fighter) is a "pointy stick" (polearm) specialist with an extreme love of dragons. Following the logic that dragons have treasure, treasure is found by adventurers, and adventurers are sometimes called heroes, he naturally became interested when he heard of a town's "Call for Heroes". His player has been playing since I started GMing last year with Little Trouble in Big Absalom.

Ortzi Crevan (Tiefling Kitsune Life Oracle) is a follower of Qi Zhong plagued by visions that have led him to Breachill. His only knowledge of Tian Xia was through his grandparents, so his knowledge of the language is almost exclusively food. His player is also returning; they joined for the Fall of Plaguestone/The Slithering double-feature.

Orbeck Vitreus (Seer Elf Wizard) is a magic scholar who has studied at Magaambya and follows Nethys. He is surprisingly fond of Telekinetic Projectile. His familiar is Garry the Aeon Wyrd. (He is not Ekujae, as far as I'm aware.) His and the remaining characters' players are new to me.

Gargrun Emberfury (Beastkin Dwarf Fighter) is a Breachill local that has decided to put his curse to use. It took him a bit to figure out what kind of fighter he was: brawler. He may have been in a relationship with Roxie Dean? (If you're going to establish a connection to an existing NPC, please inform your GM BEFORE, not when, the NPC is introduced. Zim: "Could have been worse; could have been Voz.") I believe his player is new to Pathfinder in general.

Epsilon-2 (Alchemical Investigator[-Witch] Artisan Android) is, like Ortzi, driven by visions of fire which drew him to Breachill. He has been contacted (vaguely) by an unknown patron which has given him a poppet familiar resembling his deceased friend, Helena. As expected for an Investigator, he tends to spot things before the rest of the party.

Guest featuring: Roll20's Die Roller that hates PC's animals, companion or summoned. Its opinion on Construct Familiars has not been tested.

The story began with the members of the party-to-be mingling with townsfolk. Orbeck specifically met a nervous goblin, Warbal Bumblebrasher, fretting about her nearby community. The town council meeting soon began, but before Warbal could begin her request, a guard warned of a fire. As the flames, and the Fire Mephit that spread them, burst into the room, so did our heroes-to-be burst into action. The little kobold rushed to confront the elemental near (and soon, unfortunately, IN) the flames, while the rest of the group fired upon it from a distance, the townsfolk panicked, and the council tried to lead toward the exit. Combating the creature was easy, but the flames would not be drowned out. Orbeck suggests to Greta (Head of the Council) to have those fleeing the building form a bucket chain. During the escape, Zim passed out from smoke inhalation, but was saved by Epsilon. Their bravery and ability to think under pressure proven, the group was declared to be the Heroes tasked with helping the Bumblebrashers and with capturing the local that started the fire, a miscreant named Calmont.

The group hiked up to the ruined Citadel Altaerein, aka Hellknight Hill, current of home of the suspiciously quiet goblin clan. They decided that the front door was too obvious and would first circle the perimeter. On the northern wing, they found a corpse on a small mound in a pool of water where part of the citadel's wall once was; when Epsilon attempted to examine it, the mound attacked. (Neither the corpse nor the mound were Calmont, it should be noted; the arsonist is a halfling.) The similar mound further along the wall didn't rise in time to assist it's fellow graveshell (the name of the creature, Epsilon recalled) as the pond-dweller had a head smashed in by a rock from Orbeck. Orbeck threatened the surviving creature that, along with some food from Ortzi, convinced it to inform them of any goblins or halflings it had seen. None, but one human (dead) and some worgs.

Leaving it to its own devices, they continued counter-clockwise around the building; Garry scouting ahead. The next opening they found presented a corpse and rats of unusual size. Zim interacted peacefully with one rat before the party continued. The third hole was into a training room filled with mannequins. These objects were clearly less trustworthy than disease-bearing rodents and the immovability was to be tested... by rocks. A single silver piece fell from one and, intending to return, the noted its position.

In spite of all this caution, they would immediately attempt to open the next door. It was of the southern wing, it was locked or barred, and it had something behind it, something that was now alert. The party's curiosity was peaked and they returned to the training hall with coin untouched. Before they could proceed westward, the heard a commotion in the opposite direction and decided to prioritize it. It was an armored man, a Hellknight named Alak, fighting a group of imps with his strange sword-that-looks-like-a-halberd. Following the party's easy victory, they agreed to assist him in finding his "ring".

The group, with Alak as rearguard, passed through the kitchen without touching anything and barged into the bunkroom. A bed fort with a crude Goblin banner whose inhabitant would have attacked, had she not been smart enough to realize that six-on-one is terrible odds. The party, fortunately, both is not keen on attacking without reason and was on a quest to help goblins, which they believed her to be. The fuzzy, grumpy, goblin-looking thing informed them that she was not a "Bumblebutt" and Ortzi realized this scrawny girl was a bugbear. Regardless, Yoletcha (later found out to be a homeless teenager) told them what they needed to know: the goblins would be underground.

The party's new goal was stairs. To this end, the proceeded counter-clockwise through the citadel, while Alak would double-check around the training room. After deciding to let sleeping Goblin Dogs lie, the heard a commotion from above.

Unknown to the party, it was at this time that Calmont took Helba hostage. He had been waiting near the goblins awaiting an opportunity to appear.

The party decided at a crossroad of exiting out a hole in the structure into the courtyard (where shouting can be heard) or going north (which is a distinctly different direction, incomparable to "above"), they would take that later. This led them to other side of the graveshell's pool and to a surprising discovery: worg puppies! The little creatures were harmless (now), but their yelping alerted the daddy, who broke through a nearby door for dinner. Upon recalling that worgs are intelligent, Orbeck attempted to diffuse the situation; the party meant no harm to the worg or his puppies. The worg did not care... about the puppies. This declaration, alone, led the party to assume (correctly despite having no actual evidence) that worg would be willing to eat the puppies and promptly killed him.

Now the party has a pair of defenseless puppies, what should they do? They can't leave them here; the graveshell will eat them (they incorrectly assumed in spite of reasonable evidence that it cannot enter the room without considerable effort). They can't bring them forward; they might get hurt. That leaves the party with two options.

    They can take the puppies to Alak, the Hellknight that was offering them carte blanche on whatever they find if they found his ring and was also willing to help them fight the dangers in the citadel to assist their quest.
  • OR
  • They go to Yoletcha, the skittish, homeless girl wearing knives who had demonstrated no positive opinions of the party and was of an ancestry specifically known for psychopathy, sadism, and psychotic violence.
Of course, the party realized, Yoletcha was clearly the more trustworthy of watching their small, baby animals.

While that (rather short) debate was occurring and Gargrun was healed from worg bites, Zim found a book that was possibly written by relative of Alak and the group decided to return that to him. Alak had just entered the bunk chamber, when the party arrived. He was touched by their gift and, seeing their trust in her, he decided to give the bugbear a chance. Yoletcha upon hearing the puppies was immediately interested and gave them unidentified meat. Ortzi requested Yoletcha watch the dogs for him, which she was willing to do.

Once more ignoring the kitchen, the party searched the rooms they had not explored in the southern wing. They discovered a secret trapped room, in which they found, among other things, a hand of the mage which is not mage hand but the severed hand of a mage that will allow one to cast mage hand.

The party then found a gate leading out to the courtyard. The commotion since had quieted down, which had led to a certain creature losing interest one more until a group scurried out in front of it. This crocodile-esque creature is a grauladon, a distant relative of dragons, much to Zim's disappointment. Zim, it should be noted, is hard to chew, much to the grauladon's disappointment. Zim's soul was caught in a tug-of-war between Ortzi and that which is not a real dragon, so it is only fitting that Zim's pointy stick would slay the beast.

This reignited the stand-off between Calmont and the Bumblebrashers on the barrister, which the party would immediately climb onto. In all the excitement, Gargrun temporarily forgot that the party had been sent to help the goblins. He and Zim rushed the halfling, attempting to hold him down, while their colleagues pelted him with projectiles. He eventually surrendered.

Interrogating Calmont and interviewing Helba, the leader of the goblins, gave the party several interesting pieces of information. First, Calmont was also after a "ring" which the goblins knew nothing about. Second, the not-dragon had chased the goblins upstairs when it and several other monsters emerged from the basement of the basement. Third, Calmont's ring was a series of "elf gates" which the party assumed to be the origin point of the homewreckers. Finally, the attackers called themselves Cinderclaws and they were delivering violence and screaming and not holiday cheer.

Leaving Calmont under the watch of the now-armed Bumblebrashers, the party set forth to loot secure the remainder of the citadel's ground floor. The group distracted the previously encountered rats with food, so as to grab the belongings of the likewise previously encountered deceased fellow. In another room, there was an unlucky encounter with a giant bat. Unlucky for it, as when it flew into the faces of the party, Zim and Gargrun reacted by flailing their weapons wildly; Gargrun's clan dagger pierced its heart.

Afterward, the reached what seemed to be the final room: a small jail with four long dead bodies. They did not remain dead for long. Then, they did not remain undead for long. Orbeck realized the energies that had arisen the dead was coming from beneath them. Thus, the party finished looting- wait, no. Thus, the party remembered they never searched the kitchen. They found something surprising: spiders. Then they found something actually surprising: arsenic! Which is a real item in this game, with stats and everything.

The party then brought Calmont to justice and summarized the events to Greta. The councilwoman was understandably concerned, monsters from another land, necromantic energy, and demons? The group was paid for the arsonist's arrest, but was requested to return into the depths of the citadel to tackle these threats to Breachill and to assist this effort, the town's wares and services would be discounted for them.

That closed the first two chapters and sessions. This post is long enough and took longer to write than I expected, so I'll save the remainder for another post. I hope you had fun reading about my party's interesting decisions. Also, I only listed the interesting items found; it'd clog up the flow to list all the unremarkable stuff that they'd just end up selling.

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I'm sorry, it's just that this problem of "one word being used two different ways back-to-back" seems so obvious to me and it's extremely frustrating. Especially now that the Errata has been released and some people are debating the differences between attacks, the Attack tag, and "attack rolls". I feel like I'm back in 5e.

"It's summoned, but it's not Summoned." is going to be a freaking mantra. What's the point of having a tag if you're going to have keep pointing out all the times that you are NOT using it?

Unrelated, do the iconic Summoner and her dragon have names? I'm really digging that design. I can't wait to see that beast in color. I hope it's blue.

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Temperans wrote:
Eidolons are not Summoned in the Playtest. They are manifested.

That's what I said. Not Summoned (capitalized, game tag), but summoned (lower-case, normal word). I don't want to go down this road again.

At this point, I prefer removing summoning as a game term and it being a broadly acceptable flavor term, so Conjuring, Manifesting, Incarnating, and any other synonym of Summoning you could find or make up can be a type of summoning, but all have distinctive meanings and rules. That would allow summoned to be used as generic term in descriptions without confusion.

Look at this:

Incarnate Trait wrote:
A spell with the incarnate trait operates as follows, rather than conjuring a minion with the summoned trait and allowing you to direct its actions. When summoned, the incarnate creature takes its Arrive action. At the end of your next turn, the summoned creature can either Step, Stride, or take the action for another movement type it has (such as Climb or Burrow), and then takes its Depart action. Then the spell ends.

In the same block that says it's not Summoned, it still calls it a summoned creature. Obviously an easily fixed mistake in early preview, but I feel it highlights that the term confusion even affects the people making the game.

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Rysky wrote:
Not really sure how having the name "Summoner" will make people go "oh this class can cast summon spells for free!".

The same thing that makes people think Clerics are religious, Investigators search for clues, Bards play music, and that Fighters commit violence? Names have meaning and convey intention. If they introduced a Striker class that focused on support spells people would just as confused. A class and a mechanic share a name which implies that the class should using the mechanic as its main thing.

The summoned tag appears to the root of the issue now though. Apparently some of the writers have said it isn't even accurate. So Summoned things are created, not summoned, but the Eidolan, which is summoned apparently, isn't Summoned and now we have Incarnated summons which are also not Summoned.

Get used to this mess, unless of those words changes, people will keep insisting that these two need to match. My vote's now on the tag. Just call it conjured, they're all conjuration spells, except (Pretend to) Animate Dead which is Necromancy, but at least doesn't label itself a summon. I don't like that PF2 has 5e's "Is a Melee Weapon Attack an 'Attack with a Melee Weapon' or a 'Melee Attack with a Weapon'?" nonsense. (It's the latter, by the way, and, yes, it matters.)

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Oh, while we're at it can we get an explicit description of Manifest(ing/ed) and what would have it's tag? Just so it's perfectly clear how it is different from Summoned things.

Maybe also renaming the Summoned trait? With all these new ways to summon things, it seems unnecessary to let one specific way be enshrined as the tag. Perhaps have it be "Summoned (Minion)". Or has that ship already sailed? It would be nice to be able to use the word summon without having to explain that there are no minions involved.

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Really digging this Final Fantasy-esque "Summon Attack" idea, even if it isn't apparently meant to be used by the Summoner.

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The Elementary Guide to Elements
Starring:the Kineticist with her Classic Elements and the Warper with his Exotic Elements* (An occult/martial class based on twisting his body and mind by harnessing the power of other planes.)

*Acid, Shadow, Chaos

Guest Starring: the Druidic Sea Order, the Oracle's Crystalline Mystery, and the Bloodrager (as a Barbarian Instinct similar to Eldritch Trickster Rogue)

Featuring: New element-related Witch Patrons (Inferno, Buried, and Sunken) and Bard Muse (the attention-grabbing Luminary), new elemental spells for all casters and special element attack feats for martials (like the Gale Slash), Elemental Adjustment Wizard Thesis, and the Alchemist Sprayer (A new contraption for dousing foe or friend in your concoctions.) along with new items.

Warning: Contains new hazards, monsters, and horrible ways to die (or wish you did).

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Snes wrote:
Traditionally, Dexterity and Constitution are on-average the most valuable scores, while Charisma is frequently the least valuable. You'll notice that there are currently no PF2 ancestries that feature a Dex flaw. I'm in favor of splitting Dex into two skills (one for manual dexterity, the other for agility and balance), and either combining Con with another ability or making it separate from the ability score system entirely.

They already have that as a variant rule in the Gamemaster's Guide with that logic (Con joins Str) and it also turns Will into a Charisma save. So you're in good company there.

Snes wrote:
I suspect a part of that is because they wanted each of the magic traditions to have a dedicated skill that wasn't used for much outside of Recall Knowledge rolls and the like. Combining Nature and Survival means Nature is significantly more valuable of a skill than Arcana, Occultism, and Religion.

I don't know if I'd call it significantly more valuable, but I see that as a reasonable assumption.

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Like Graystone, I misinterpreted the title; thought it would be about pet mammoths begging for scraps. Is it okay to feed my mammoth sahuagin?

The odd thing to me is the Survival skill. Since Nature is a main skill in PF2, why not fold Survival into it? They're both Wisdom-based and the feats that
aren't inherently Nature themed are still mostly used in nature, but usable in cities. If Nature were still Int, the divide would make sense.

I like that the saves have different names from the ability scores. You could call the Will Save a Wisdom Save if you want, but having a distinct name makes it easier to explain, both conceptually and mechanically. This is largely due to an experience DMing 5e for a specific type of group.

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I get that this a joke, but it would fit as nice uncommon for home settings where humans are rarer.

What would be the skills to go along with human lore? I think Society (for humanity's adaptability in regards to groups) and Crafting (we make, build, and design a lot of things).

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In game terms, sorcer (which isn't a real word) would be using one's inherent magic, as the only class that does so, yes, by definition the Sorcerer is the best at being a sorcerer. And from what I've heard, they do seem to be held as one of the best magic classes.

Why are people so held to the sacred cow name of a class that even the most vocal defenders of admit they don't no anyone who actually thinks of the Summoner as a summoner? A class that at least one of those defenders also pointed out was a hated OP mess of a class in 1e.

Why after days of derailing the thread to argue that the dictionary is more important the game rules, did it suddenly become kosher to invent words to dodge questions?

This is the problem of having a class and a game mechanic share a name. The Fighter (or any other martials) isn't called the Striker. None of the magic classes are called the Caster. The Rogue isn't called the Skill-Man.

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So the best summoner isn't the Summoner? You realize how confusing that is, right? The Summoner isn't the best summoner. Isn't the Fighter the best fighter?

And the Conjuration Wizard can't even cast all the summon spells. A class centering on having those lists and the cost of having limited (or even no) other spells would be a very different beast.

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That's what I'm saying; "summoning" is not "Summoning", but "Summoning" is "summoning". That is the basis of this entire thread. That is the problem. The word has two different meanings here.

Think if summoning were animals and Summoning were dogs, then the Eidolon is a tiger. It is not a dog, but is an animal. Roughly half this thread is people reading Summoner as the Dogger and being confused as to why it uses a tiger and why some people think tigers are dogs, and the other half is reading it as Animaler and being confused as to why some people don't think tigers are animals.

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Grankless wrote:
I wish I had the energy to spend this many posts arguing that a word isn't a synonym for another word when it, by every definition that exists, is. it's magic baybee

Exactly, all conjuration spells are summoning. Heck, you can non-magically summon things with the Diplomacy and Nature skills or Interacting with a bell. Why bother having a tag for Summoned things? Just use the Minion tag. Shove the Summoned paragraph at the end with "If the Minion was brought about by a Conjuration spell or effect, wall of text." Because apparently this is too confusing a mechanic for this forum.

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber

Are you saying that the situation is either that the play-test is intentionally only part of a class or that the people who like the class just think it is and expect more? I don't know which of those is worse.

Wait, the angel specifically lists a change for summoning "celestial" animals and there are some summoning feats (though as Temperans pointed out, they do specifically buff the Eidolon separately). Why bother with the animals if summoning isn't important to test?

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber

Why don't we ask the designer of the class then? Is Manifest (keyword) summoning (regular word), Summoning (keyword), or neither. Also, would you test-drive my car? Yes, it's missing a wheel; that's intentional.

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber

Is the summoning class features in a different subclass? Is an Eidolonless Summoner allowed? How are they supposed to test if the Eidolon works properly if the Summoner's other abilities aren't present as opportunity costs? How does the Eidolon make the Summoner better at summoning than other classes? I have a lot of questions.

This definitely explains all the commotion people made about the Summoner feeling useless without the Eidolon around though.

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber

I think the problem here is the binary notion of "The Summoner does/doesn't summon the Eidolon" when the two sides are using different meanings. Having a different name that didn't overlap with an existing game mechanic would make it more clear that regardless if the entity is "summoned" (lowercase as the real word) in the story is irrelevant to the mechanics where it is not "Summoned" (capitalized as a game keyword).

I also think the Eidolon lore bits are too rigid and would be better if they were just stated as examples; your Angel Eidolon could be an actual angel working with you or it could be an overlooked aspect of yourself taking form (with help from an actual celestial, perhaps) to force you to face your issues. Be more open, like Witch Patrons and Bard Muses.

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber

I find it very confusing. You don't have a summoned creature, you just have another you, mechanically; there's an entire thread about how the most logical use of this class mechanic is Jojo Stand. None of the Eidolon's seem to be actually summoned by the character; we've got guardian angel, druid animal companion plus, and dragon ghost. Then there's the devotion phantom where it's literally just a ghost possessing you so it can say, "I'm totally not a ghost."

I've been trying to come up with summoner characters for this class, but every time they just make more sense being a different class using "summon x" spells and just pretending the entities are important. The non-summoner characters I've come up with for the class are a wimpy monk astral projecting a dragon to bite people two rooms away, a false Messiah "summoning" an "angel" to prove his divinity, a failed magician with an ego so large it literally overshadows everything else, a possession gone wrong, and a Soul Binder (not necessarily through slavery, could be contract-based; lifelink is to keep the demon from just letting you die).

So, I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the name summoner when a less specific name would be less held to existing notions of summoning. My vote would be Channeler, since no matter what Eidolon you have (or what story you're telling), you are bringing (or holding) some kind of entity to the physical world. Summoner suggests calling in something disposable. Channeler suggests a deep connection; put that lifelink right in the class name.

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber

I'm only slightly disappoint by the lack of wrist-mounted toads and witches with self-reloading crossbow familiars.

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber

How about something in the vein of an artificer? A weapons/armor equivalent to the Alchemist. Make or modify weapons, armor, shields, and ammo faster, but their experimental nature means that without daily recalibration, they'll become unstable/unusable.

Things like spread-shot crossbows (turn your attack roll into a AoE reflex save), revolver crossbows (reload less often, but more actions to do it), ejectable blades (probably unnecessary, but cool), spring boots, and magnetic shields (to grab/disarm metal weapons).

I think a non-magic utility character could be fun. "I ain't jealous of them wizards; I can do all that without any hocus pocus."

Late feats/down time could result in modified structures and vehicles. Underwater Airship.

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber

I don't think there's anything stopping a different Int-caster from having list options just because the Witch has it; it just has to do it differently. The patron's aren't as mechanically involved as a Sorcerer's bloodline or an Oracle's mystery. I can see a scholar class running with the concept like this with the sub-choices (Research Field) being the spell list and base features they're emulating.

I think any existing spell list and casting stat combo could be repeated by a new class as long as the features and feats make them clearly different. The only thing I'm hesitant about is giving a full-on prepared caster access to the Arcane list.

I do want to clarify two things about my idea. First, I never meant to suggest my idea was the Warlock, just that it could have that name. I still haven't come up with one, since the first three I thought of are already taken (Occultist, Warlock, Sage). Then, when I said Occult Cleric and Planar Druid, I didn't mean that it was supposed to be them; just that that is what Wisdom casting means to me. Int is studying magic scientifically, Cha is making magic work by force, and Wis is feeling the magic. Clerics let God take the wheel, Druids go with nature's flow, Monks can awaken to their ki, and my caster follows those ideals depending on what they're fixated on.

Sub-choice ideas:
Worshiper: Your faith is a magical as a Cleric, even if your "god" doesn't even know you exist. I love the idea of big AoE Focus spells where you are the central target; just drop a psychic fireball on yourself.
Metamorphist: Did you need an extra arm? How about eyes? Downside is probably damage during, or fatigue after, because your body is not meant to do that! Alternatively, maybe your new limbs aren't as obedient as your old ones.
Enlightened: Reality can be whatever you want it to be. Downsides are logical trades: If I treat darkness like bright light, then bright light becomes darkness. If I treat air as water to swim through the sky, I probably can't breathe it.

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber

I'd rather like an Occult Wisdom (Prepared) caster, perhaps tying into out-there concepts. Wisdom being needed to maintain sanity while invoking the incomprehensible and pushing the class toward Occult Cleric and Planar Druid. Focus spells could have some kind of backlash, like the Oracle's cursebound spells, related to mutating one's body into less stable forms.
I think this could be a "PF Warlock that isn't D&D's Warlock."