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Eagle0600 wrote:
What is the motivation for Grigori to use a potion of undetectable alignment? In politics, the truth can be as useful as a lie if it's convenient enough, and I don't see how his actual alignment (CN) is at any odds with the image he has chosen to project of a concerned individual mistrustful of the local government.

It's about him maintaining a poker face, and not allowing the PCs to know anything or make any assumptions about him. It puts him in control of the situation.

Which Lake did they drop it in? If it was Lake Silverstep then a fun idea would be to have a stray Mudman find it and when it does the artifact unintentionally bestows intelligence and malice upon it and the mudman becomes the new villain.

The Baron or Baroness Drelev are the right alignment and might accept the artifact to get revenge. The artifact has the power to summon daemons, so you could say that it managed to summon a weak one itself and then that daemon sought out someone to take up the artifact.

I wouldn't focus so much on alignment, so long as the person has the artifact it will slowly influence them to become Neutral Evil.

Session 6
Adventure 4 (Fallen Angel)

Ezra Crimsonshard (N Male Elf Artificer 3)

Caldan d'Orien (NG Male Human Oracle 3)

Train (N Male Personality Warforged Fighter 3)

(The following takes place on Dravago 25)

Sometime after the trio has returned to Sharn, they are sent messages from a woman named Kaelys Tela, whom they met on the ship to Draguun, asking them to come to her estate for a potential job. Traveling up to the opulent neighborhood, they meet the stone faced elven scholar. She explains that her house was broken into and one of her possessions stolen. The object in question, the broken hand of a statue, was of little value compared to the valuables stored alongside it. She shows them the body of one of the thieves, killed by a trap, and askes them to recover the statue's hand for her, and an x10 bonus if they can recover the statue itself.

Their investigation of the body suggests that the thief was from a low-class neighborhood called Fallen, and that he was likely a member of one of the gangs that live there. Speak with Dead reveals that they are trying to reassemble the statue the hand was a part of originally. Traveling down to Fallen, they find it the exact opposite of Kaelys' neighborhood; it's run down and occupied by the most impoverish citizens without even the presence of the Sharn Gaurd to protect them. Ezra finds the place offensive. Caldan finds a local priestess of the Silver Flame in the district and asks her about the gang they are looking to find. The priestess tells them that by the attire of the dead thief, he likely belonged to one of the two intelligent gangs and directs them to Colrac Hall. She tells them that most of the gangs had degenerated over the generations to the point where they are more like animals than people. A point illustrated when shortly after leaving the church, they are attacked by grunting, snarling beast-like men.

Colrac Hall reveals the source of Fallen's name as it is a building impaled by a glass spire that fell to the district when its floatation failed for unknown reasons. They enter and come upon the Night Stalkers, but the barbarians attack before they can talk, and the trio is forced to kill them. They continue exploring the hall, killing the giant rats that infest it and even the spirit of the anguished souls that died when the spire fell.

Eventually, they enter the upside-down glass spire and battle dog skeletons. They manage to get up to the next floor despite the upside-down stairs and find themselves in a maze of halls, Blink Dogs harrier them teleporting in and out between attacks. The vicious hounds nearly fell them, but they make it to the dog's trainer and kill him. Avoiding traps, they kill the rest of the gang's members before confronting their leader, a schizophrenic man who speaks in different personalities who is obsessed with the mostly complete statue of what looks like an angel with his wings torn off. They dispatch the leader and collect the statue, requiring several feats of strength on Train's part, engineering on Ezra's part, and organization of local help on Caldan's part.

They get the statue back to Kaelys, who points out that the statue still has parts missing, an eye and fingers, and she only promised advanced pay on them bringing her the whole statue. Ezra begrudgingly accepts this while grumbling under his breath about her being cheap. Then she tells them in a deadpan voice that she is, of course, kidding.

GM Notes:

This adventure is great for showing how extreme the wealth divide is between many of the districts; the majesty of Sharn lessens the lower one goes from manors guarded by professional mercenaries to places where people are so poor they have degenerated practically to beasts. Fallen was a prosperous district before the Fall, but since it's been abandoned and left to rot.

The adventure doesn't give much backstory on Kaelys, or the statue beyond that it is a petrified Radiant Idol whose curse caused the Fall. This means that it's a great starting off point for DMs to create a larger campaign where their party can explore the backstory of this fallen angel.

GMs should be careful with this adventure as it is low-level, but barbarians can be very deadly at low levels as can the blink dogs in the adventure.

Session 5
Adventure 3 (Shadows of the Last War cont.)

Ezra Crimsonshard (N Male Elf Artificer 2)

Caldan d'Orien (NG Male Human Oracle 2)

Train (N Male Personality Warforged Fighter 2)

(The following takes place on Dravago 18-23)

The trio travel through the day before passing through the Dead-Grey Mists and entering the Mournlands. Ezra is terrified by the dead wastes and the bodies scattered everywhere, bloody and fresh as the day they were killed. Occasionally attacked by undead, skeletal wolves, and a zombie vulture, they ignore possible looting and rush to Whitehearth.

After Ezra is zapped a few times by a trapped false entry hatch, they find the real way in and begin exploring the dungeon. This requires them to find little colored rods called key charms to make a central chamber rotate around and open up to different sections of the facility; thankfully, Lady Elaydren sent along one to get their investigation started. They come upon their first living spell, a Flaming Sphere, which is an ooze-like creature in the form of the spell.

Eventually, they find their way to the home of Rorsa; a wolf granted intelligence by some unknown by-product of the magic that destroyed Cyre, who asks them to destroy a stone wolf that has several of her pack trapped. Rorsa, backed up by allies, actually has the courage and strength to defeat the stone wolf on her own, and they rescue the wolves. Rorsa tells the trio that she hopes that they will be able to help her pack escape this place as well.

They battle another living spell, Color Spray, and find the forge where they defeat the bound fire elementals. They recover the creation pattern, a frame that the schema fit into, and a pair of identical schema, the original and a functional copy. Unable to find a way for the wolves to escape, they hand over the keycharms and escape themselves.

Outside they are confronted by the nosferatu from Rose Quarry, who introduces himself as Garrow, along with the remaining Emerald Claw soldiers and several zombies. Garrow demands they hand over the 'third' schema. When they give him the copy, he tells the soldiers and zombies to attack before riding away himself. The trio manage to defeat the Emerald Claw soldiers and escape.

Returning to Rhukaan Draal, they find Lady Elaydren waiting for them, and she cheekily offers to double their pay if they escort her back to Sharn. On the way home, they discuss what Garrow said about this being the third schema which worries Lady Elaydren. Ezra starts having nightmares about the Mournland, and though his mother is furious with him for running off, she dotes over him until he feels better.

GM Notes:

The Mournlands are a terrifying place, and if you can get the atmosphere right, it should freak out your players. It might be fun for a player who is a war veteran seeing this place for the first time since the war ended, causing them to have flashbacks of the war.

The Dead-Grey Mists are described, but it might be good to add a challenge to them like a Will or a Fortitude save to get through without being shaken or fatigued, or getting lost and needing a survival or intelligence check to make it through as if the Dead-Grey Mists were there to try and keep people from entering the Mournlands.

The dungeon in this adventure is great, I couldn't describe it in short detail, but there is a lot of fun to be had trying to figure out how things work. There is a way to open up the facility and let Rorsa and her wolves escape, but my players didn't find it.

Garrow returns here to get the schema, and this is another good reason to make sure your players are afraid of him so they won't try and take on this force even if they have fully rested. Using the fast progression, a character may have gotten to fourth level by the time they exit the dungeon and might feel powerful enough to take on Garrow force, especially if they killed the Emerald Claw lieutenants in Rose Quarry.

Session 4
Adventure 3 (Shadows of the Last War)

Ezra Crimsonshard (N Male Elf Artificer 2)

Caldan d'Orien (NG Male Human Oracle 2)

Train (N Male Personality Warforged Fighter 2)

(The following takes place on Dravago 12-17)

Caldan checks in on the Sivis message station finding that it's been ransacked. He revives the gnome clerk, and she tells him that a message came in addressed to him moments before her attackers, kobolds led by a large man in a heavy cloak, arrived. Due to her training to record and forget messages, she doesn't remember what the message said or who sent it.

Caldan goes to Ezra's home to collect him and Train, and they decide to go to the Broken Anvil and see if Lady Elaydren is waiting for them there, figuring she was the one who would have sent them the message. At that moment, one of the city's Giant Owl messengers drops them a note from Elaydren asking them to do just that. At the inn, they find Lady Elaydren, but before she can tell them much, Saber, the warforged that escaped them in the first adventure, breaks into the inn and attacks with a squad of kobolds. They defeat Saber, and Lady Eladren thrusts a Handy Haversack full of supplies and instructions into Ezra's arms before snatching up Saber's sword and rushing out of the inn.

The instructions tell them the schema they discovered was part of a creation patter being studied in a hidden facility in Cyre called Whitehearth and was lost on the Day of Mourning. They need to travel to the destroyed town of Rose Quarry in Darguun and that a man named Failin, who can be found in Rhukaan Draal's Blood Market, can take them to Rose Quarry. With no Lightning Rail or airships going directly to Rhukaan Draal, the trio take an Elemental Galleon instead. On the trip, they meet several other passengers but mostly keep to themselves. Near the end of the trip, they are attacked by skeletons who kill some of the crew before the trio are able to destroy them.

They have little trouble getting through the goblin city of Rhukaan Draal, though Ezra, who spent his entire life in Sharn, finds it dirty and contemptuous. They find Failin with no trouble, and he agrees to take them to Rose Quarry in his elemental cart. Once there, they all notice a campsite set up in the town, which was destroyed when it was covered by a thick layer of glass, and sneak in to see what they can find. Drawn to the sound of things digging through the glass, they find several pairs of dwarf zombies encased in glass. Eventually, they make their way to one of the only two intact buildings, a Cannith Foundry, and find Emerald Claw soldiers within, confirming who has set up camp nearby. Defeating the soldiers, they examine the map and features of the room, figuring out Whitehearth's location.

As they leave the foundry, an unnatural fog fills the city streets, and a nosferatu vampire forms out of the mist and moves to attack them. Knowing they have no chance against such a foe, they run. Slipping on the glass during their flight, they just barely manage to make it to the edge of town when the sun begins to rise. The vampire taunts them as it retreats into the fog from the encroaching daylight.

GM Notes:

I have to say despite my insistence to have Lady Elaydren mention the Sivis Message Station, the whole scene there is fairly pointless. A GM could just begin the adventure by having the Giant Owl Messenger, which is a standard thing in Sharn, deliver the emergency message. The only thing we got out of it was a running joke about how the gnome clerk started developing a crush on Caldan, who checks in every day, something only enhanced when he seemingly saved her.

There is a land option to travel to Rhukaan Draal by taking the lightning rail to a town, then joining up with a caravan and acting as guards, even getting paid a little. Still, it adds two weeks to the journey, so unless you want to draw out the trip, I would recommend just encouraging the players to take the galleon to Draguun. Remember to emphasize that an Elemental Galleon, sometimes called a Wind Galleon, is a sea vessel that uses an elemental ring to propel the ship much faster than a standard sailing or rowing ship. It hydroplanes over the water at up to 20mph, over 30km; I neglected this in my game. I attempted to introduce several future patrons to the PCs, which didn't work out for me as my players mostly ignored them.

Remember to emphasize the cultural differences between Breland and Draguun; the most significant is that the goblinoids engage in slavery. Their society is more aggressive but not overly warlike or evil.

Finally, remember to play up how powerful Garrow, the "nosferatu vampire", is to your players. He is not an opponent they should be taking on at this time, so make sure they run. I'd even advise using his stat block from the fourth adventure, "Grasp Of The Emerald Claw," to make sure they know he's too powerful for them to take on. If you can, maybe have Garrow kill a friendly NPC with a single casting of Inflict Critical Wounds; that should drive home the point nicely.

Eagle0600 wrote:
Hi. I'm running a Kingmaker campaign, and in setting up the location for the Sootscale Caverns I've run into an issue. The location is listed as being "hidden", but I can't find a check that would allow the PCs to locate it other than being led there by Mikmek or the map in the mite's war room. Is this an oversight?

The writers probably either intended the site to be hidden and changed that but forgot to edit the location or they forgot to note the DC in the adventure.

I would recommend treating the site as being non-hidden. What with it being an abandoned mine, obvious sign, and the mite caged out in the open sun out front, another obvious sign.

If you want to keep it hidden I suggest setting the Perception DC at 20 as that is the DC for ever other site with the exception of one that is DC 15 and another that is DC 25. They balance out to 20 anyway.

Session 3
Adventure 2 (The Queen with the Burning Eyes cont.)

(The following takes place on Dravago 6 and 10)

When Caldan and Ezra awaken, they restore themselves with healing magic and choose to press on exploring the ruins. They return to the central chamber and move to explore the north passage. Here they find the den of a monstrous spider, but its poison is useless against a Warforged like Train, and it is quickly dispatched. In the spider's webbing, they find a warhammer made of byeshk, which Train accepts as his first weapon, being the only one able to wield it. Down the last tunnel they find a tribe of vicious kobolds that swarm them, but they manage to knock them out, Train accidentally killing a few with his new hammer. Searching the area turns up the tribe's treasures but no more signs of the missing people than anywhere else.

They head south to finish exploring the crypt and find out what's on the other side of the large double doors they'd left unopened. Ezra tries to open them and is nearly beheaded by a hidden scythe trap, dodging the blade at the last second. Opening one of the doors, the they hear chanting coming from inside, and peeking in, they see a ritual taking place where a young woman will be sacrificed to the Dragon Down Below, Khyber. Not wasting any time, Ezra has Train throw open the door and charge in with him. Caldan moves to join them, but he is suddenly attacked by a choker, who has been waiting to get one of them alone. In the ritual chamber, Train and Ezra find themselves out-numbered four to one. Still, they fight their way to the girl. Just as they reach her, a Bright Naga, the Queen with the Burning Eyes, comes up out of the pit and blasts them with Color Spray. This stuns the girl who the naga drags down into the pit to her death. Deciding they can't win, Ezra runs and orders Train to do the same. Train does so, but he pulls the doors shut and holds them so the others can get away. Ezra attacks the choker causing it to flee, and pulls Caldan to his feet. Train gives them a round to get away, then lets go of the door and runs after them. The assembled cultists, all pulling collectively on the door, fall prone as if flies open without resistance. Their queen screaming at them of their incompetence, the cultists chase after the trio who reach the central chamber. Caldan and Ezra desperately try to climb up the rope, but find they are no more proficient at free climbing then they were back at the foundry. Train, however, is so tall he easily hops up to grab the lip of the hole and climbs up. As the cultists pour into the room he grabs the hands of the others and pulls them up. With Ezra safe, Train drops back down and begins laying waste to the cultists as Ezra and Caldan shoot their crossbows from their safe vantage point.

The cult dealt with, the trio recover and return to the queen's ritual chamber and defeat her as well. Caldan catches the choker trying to get the jump on him again and kills the little menace before it can get away a second time. Having discovered that the cult is the cause of the missing people, the trio gather up the rest of the cult's loot, then secures all the survivors and marches them out of the ruins carrying their Queen with them. Some, like the goblins, protest that they were just mercenaries who didn't know anything about the cult's activities, but the trio still turn them over to the guards, though Caldan does speak on their behalf. The heroes make quite a scene marching their prisoners through the Cogs, and the Sharn Watch is very impressed that they managed to capture so many alive. They celebrate their success and enjoy the delicious baking provided by the followers of the Silver Flame as said followers they celebrate Baker's Night.

It does not take long to secure confessions from the crazed cultists, and due to the number of people the cult killed and the outcry from the citizens of the Cogs, the cultists and the Naga are all put to death via hanging a few days later. During the execution ceremony, the trio are honored by the officials and business owners of the Cogs, and the story is news in the local papers. During all this, Ezra arranges to have the more ancient relics he picked up in the ruins to be sold at an auction in several weeks, hoping to get the best possible price for them.

GM Notes:

The byeshk warhammer is the item I was speaking of last time that can help against the Dlgaunt and Dolgrim as it bypasses their DR.

This adventure is a good opportunity to show how differently Sharn deals with legal matters than most D&D settings. If your PCs just comeback and say they killed the whole cult, have the Watch reprimand or charge them for vigilantism, nothing too severe mind you just enough to drive home the point. Similarly, if the PCs are obvious or even just open about their actions in stopping this cult, have reporters come looking for them to get the story and have it appear in the paper. If they do a good job, make sure they are thanked publicly by the local leaders for their service to the city.

This adventure is a very traditional dungeon crawl, something that seems to be a little atypical for Eberron. There are events that can take place out of the ruins. The first involves a member of the Emerald Claw disguised as a noble asking the players to find a stolen item that he is sure ended up in the ruins. The second involves members of the cult attacking the PCs at the inn they are staying at for the night. The third is an optional encounter that occurs if the PCs refused to sell the item of interest to the Emerald Claw member disguised as a noble. I find that these scenes all to be forced into the adventure and don't fit well. Even if the PCs don't want to sell the item in question, the Emerald claw shows up with an EL 7 squad to get it meaning the level two characters PCs are supposed to be at the end of the adventure have no chance to win. One major problem with the first two events is that if, like with my players, the PCs don't go up to rest at an inn, then the first two events cannot occur. This is why I just dropped these elements from my game.

I'm unfamiliar with most 5e mechanics, but I did tell my players they could take traits if they wanted via the Additional Traits feat. They also could have taken flaws and drawbacks if they wanted, but they rarely do so unless I prompt them to do so. The Artificer is an interesting class, I had a friend play the 3.5e version back in the day once, but I'm curious to see how the Pathfinder version differs. I find I can never really tell such things until I see them played out in game. Though I will say the player playing the Artificer is an engineering young man so I think he will make the best of the class.

I love the automatic bonus progressions, I always use it in my games. Casters like wizards and sorcerers might complain that it forces bonuses that they don't need or want, but it also keeps them from just dropping all their money on a +6 casting stat boosting item as early as possible. One thing I do to make for the loss of things like Bracers of Armor is I make Masterwork Padded Armor have an Arcane Failure chance of 0% and have it not count as armor for the purpose of Monk abilities. That way they can use their Armor magical enchantments on something. The benefit of the system is that it allows Players to focus on buying cool magical items with interesting effects instead of just all the staple items. In Eberron it gives the players a chance to do things like save up and buy an airship of their own, or buy a house in Sharn.

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I can't say for Pathfinder, but in 3.5 Draconomicon it says that the maximum age for a Chromatic dragon is 1200 plus 50 times the dragon's Charisma score. Metallic dragons got double the amount, 100 times the dragon's Charisma score.

I think keeping it 50x for all true dragons works. that ives a Red dragon a maximum age of 2300 or a Gold a maximum age of 2500.

Of course the Draconomicon has a Prestige Class for dragons that makes them nearly deities and immortal. It also says that most evil dragons, always go for some form of immortality rather then just waste away and die. Good dragons tend consume their hoard, or most of it, and either depart to the afterlife willingly or become ghostly guardian spirits of their territory. Some even do this well before their twilight years, as early as when they reach the Old age category.

Since I can create my own magical items I would take:
1 Luck Blade with a single wish in it. (62,360gp
4 Fully charged Rings of Three Wishes (480,000)
1 Ring of of Infinite Limited Wish [A use-activated item that casts limited wish] (332,000gp)
Total: 874,360gp

My first wish from the Luck Blade would be: "I wish to always know exactly how to word a Wish to get exactly what I want from the Wish.)

12 Wish spells and an infinite number of Limited Wish spells at my disposal all of which give me exactly what I want.

Pretty sure I win at that point. :D

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I would like to be better at talking to people, and I get to be automatically successful when explaining myself like 5 times a day. Sounds like a dream.

That's cool a cool idea, did it work out like you hoped?

I was wondering if anyone else's party thought of dealing with the roc and egg hunt like this.

When my party reached the roc's nest, they simply waited for the roc to fly down to attack them and used Charm Animal on the roc. This made sense as many wandering monsters are animals, and I had no problem rewarding my players for resolving the encounters with Charm Animal.

My players wanted the roc to take them up to the nest. I countered by saying that although the roc was friendly towards them, it was still just an animal, and they couldn't communicate with her. They countered that they could use Handle Animal or Wild Empathy as it was a simple instruction, and I agreed.

They then wanted to take one of the roc's eggs, but again I denied them. I told them the roc was protective of her eggs, and any action against them or even to touch them she would likely interpret as hostile, breaking the charm effect. As these were her strong instincts as a mother, Wild Empathy could only tell them that such, but not subvert said instincts.

Then my players used Speak with Animals to talk directly with the roc, and as she was friendly towards the PCs, the roc allowed them to touch her eggs as they promised not to harm them.

Amusing sidenote: The charmed roc became a little infatuated with the character that charmed her, nuzzling him and cooing about how happy she was to meet him as she was lonely after her mate was killed.

Examining the eggs with Heal and Survival, the PCs determined they were all unfertalized. They wanted to explain this to the roc, hoping that she would let them take one. This was pushing the limit of the Speak with Animals spell, which was only supposed to be used to ask questions, but my players managed to make the roc understand by using rhetorical questions. Once the roc understood that the eggs would never hatch, she was willing to let the PCs take them.

I told my players they would have to figure out how to get the roc egg down next. Instead, they asked if the roc would fly them and her eggs back to their capital. This was an easy request for the roc to do, so she agreed. I told them even flying it would take 24 hours to get back to the capital.

My players realized that Charm Animal would wear out before then and wanted to recast it as necessary. I told them that the roc resisted regardless of her friendliness to the players, but they again just used Speak with Animal and argued that choosing to fail a saving throw was a simple request.

Once they had her back to the capital, they decided that they could Awaken the roc. They figured out how to keep the roc charmed for the twenty-four-hour casting time by having another player cast Charm Animal and Speak with Animal while the other cast Awaken. By this point, I knew there was little I could do to stop them, so I just said the roc was infatuated enough with the caster to let him cast the spell on her.

The first attempt failed, but they managed, eventually, to awaken the roc. After being Awakened, she was happy to transport the party around; due to her earlier infatuation with the charmer, she gained the name of Bird-Wife. This amused everyone except the charmer.

Anyway, afterward, I thought about what my players did and if there was something reasonable I could have done to keep them from doing what they did. There are certainly plenty of things I could have done to break the charm effect, like have the town guards fire arrows at the roc as she came to land in the capital, but my goal isn't to stop my players, just reasonably challenge them as much as I can which I hope I've illustrated. However, not only could I not think of anything I could do to stop them, but I realized doing this, Awakening the roc, seems very easy to do. My party didn't even have a Druid in it, which I imagine would be able to do the whole thing even more easily.

So I figured I'd ask and see if, and maybe even how many, other parties did the same. Awakened the Roc or even just charmed her into helping the party with the Egg Hunt.

Session 2
Adventure 2 (The Queen with the Burning Eyes)

(The following takes place on Dravago 5)

Caldan receives a message from Sgt. Dolom of the Sharn Watch, the dwarf that reprimanded them when they found the professor's body on the bridge, ordering Caldan to report to his guard station. When Caldan arrives, Dolom tells him about a series of disappearances occurring down in the Cogs, the lowest levels of the city. A cousin of Dolom has been investigating the problem and thinks the source might lay in some unexplored goblin ruins that lay below the Cogs. Dolom explains his cousin doesn't have the men to send into the ruins, and neither does he, but Dolom figures a bunch of troublemakers like Caldan and his friends might be willing to lend the Watch a hand and make up for the trouble they caused. Caldan, wanting to get back on Dolom's good side, agrees. Caldan meets up with Ezra and Train, the former handing over Caldan's share of the sold loot, he tells them of the mission, and Ezra is eager to get started. Train is ready for trouble with a pair of bandoleers nearly full of Oils of Repair he purchased with his share of the money.

Ezra's eagerness quickly fades when they go down into the poor, dirty, hot, and sunless Cogs; Ezra utterly disdains the lowest city level. They have no trouble finding their way down to the ruins, traveling down elevators and stairs until they come to the ruin entrance. Heedless of the warning of lit torches, Ezra stumbles into an ambush of three goblins but the heroes manage to dispatch them. Through a hole in the floor, they climb down into another ambush, but again, manage to fight off the Grimlock attackers. From there, the ruins branch off in every direction. Ezra leads the party south to an ancient crypt, where they are ambushed a third time by a trio of ghouls. Immune to their disease, Train takes them head-on while Ezra and Caldan cover him with crossbow fire. They claim some ancient armor and weapons from the crypt before checking out an adjacent room, which is occupied by more Grimlocks which they dispatch.

The crypt continues south, but Ezra, not liking the look of it, leads them back up north to the central chamber and then southwest. In a freezing room, they are ambushed by a horrific aberration called a Dolguant. It is nearly immune to Train's punches and uses its tentacles to drain their vitality and heal itself. Thanks to Caldan's fire magic, they manage to kill the creature and recover its treasures, which are being protected by the brown mold that is making the chamber so cold.

From there, the trio head northwest and are once more ambushed—this time by a pair of lesser aberrations called Dolgrim. Firing crossbows from across the room, they trick Ezra into falling into a pit trap. They also manage to knock out Caldan before Train dispatches them. Without any more healing potions to restore their health, Train lays them out in comfortable positions and waits while Ezra and Caldan rest and recover.

GM Notes:

I don't have much to say this time around.

The hook I used to get the players involved with this scenario was written for PCs that made a good impression on Dolom in the first adventure, but I think it works like I did here with the PCs doing it to get on his good side. Make sure to take some time to describe what the Cogs are like and just how different they are from the city above. Sharn has a bit of a classic cyberpunk feel in this aspect, where those that live in the nice clean towers above don't know just how bad and dirty the world below can be.

The Dolgaunt and Dolgrim can be very dangerous if you don't have a character that can just overwhelm their DR, but the writers did placed an item down the north hall which will help in these encounters. If you think the players will have trouble with the aberrations, then have a noise come from the north tunnel or something to draw your players that way. What that helpful item is and what guards it you'll find out next time.

Oh, I forgot to mention last time the adventure occurred on Dravago 1-3.

In this campaign, I decided to run my players through the published 3.5E adventures for Eberron campaign setting using the Pathfinder 1E rules for my players' characters. I did some conversion of the adventures from D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder 1E, but for the most part, I left things as written. I thought I'd give posting our campaign journal here a try, see if people found our adventures interesting or at least amusing.

The Players

Ezra Crimsonshard (N Male Elf Artificer 1):
Ezra is the son of a dragonshard merchant and native of Sharn. He lives with his parents, but as the Last War has finally ended and Ezra is now over a hundred years old, his parents are finally allowing him the freedom to do as he pleases. To protect him, his parents hired a Warforged to act as his bodyguard. Ezra is curious about arcane technology and jumps at any chance for "Adventure!" as he puts it.

Caldan d'Orien (NG Male Human Oracle 1):
Caldan is a scion of House Orien and a bearer of the Mark of Passage. During his first outing with an Orien convoy, he and the convoy were attacked by bandits. During the attack Caldan's hands were burned black and he was left for dead. This near-death experience awakened divine power within Caldan, leading him to a deeper faith in the Silver Flame. Caldan's magic, being much different then that of ordinary clerics, leaves him unsure of it's nature. Unable to find answers about it, Caldan has settled into living in the House Orien compound in Sharn for the time being. (He is a Life Mystery Oracle, with the Blackened Curse.)

Train (N Male Personality Warforged Fighter 1):
This huge, seven-foot-tall adamantine-bodied warforged is the ideal soldier. However, due to poor luck, Train never saw proper combat during the war. After the war had ended, Ezra's father found Train and hired him to be his son's bodyguard. Train now lives in the Crimsonshard home, in a cleared-out closet furnished with only a stool for Train to sit on. Train hardly speaks, and unlike other warforged, who feel compelled always to be doing something, Train will sit stone still in his room for hours, if not needed.

Session 1
Adventure 1 (The Forgotten Forge)

The session begins with the characters being caught in one of Sharn's notorious sudden downpours. Caldan nearly runs smack into Ezra, the pair apologizes to one another, before noticing the body of a murdered man in the middle of a sky bridge ahead of them. Ezra picks up the dead man satchel looking through it to find some identification, while Caldan examines the body to discover that he was killed by an axe. Suddenly they are attacked by a warforged wielding an axe. Luckily for Ezra and Caldan, the warforged is more interested in attacking Train as a "flesh-loving traitor!" The warforged is nowhere near the warrior Train is, and Train quickly crushes its head with his bare fists as, from windows above the street, citizens cry out for the guard. When the warforged is destroyed something peels off its stomach and flies away.

As a testament to the quality of the Sharn guards, they arrive on the scene immediately. Despite Caldan's clumsy wording, he explains that the warforged killed the man and attacked them, so the guards let them go. The trio slips into a tavern and examines the contents of the satchel. Within they find a blank journal that can't be written in; they deduce that the journal's writing must be magically concealed and it must have been what the warforged was after, but they don't know why. Luckily as they leave the tavern, a cloaked figure wearing a House Cannith signet ring tells them to go to the Broken Anvil tavern in the morning if they want answers.

At the Broken Anvil, they meet Lady Elaydren of House Cannith. She explains that the murdered man was a professor researching the location of a lost Schema, a device used in a Creation Pattern that allows House Cannith to make unusual items. She uses her signet ring to reveal the writing in the journal. The writing reveals the way down to an ancient Cannith Foundry from a particular valve cluster in the Sharn sewers. Elaydren asks the PCs to find the valve cluster and recover the schema for her, explaining that due to inter-house conflict, she needs people who aren't members of the house to act as her agents. They agree in exchange for a payment of one thousand gold pieces. Elaydren leaves with a warning that more warforged zealots of the mysterious Lord of Blades may try and kill them to get the Schema.

Inquiring about how they can find the valve cluster in the Sharn sewers, the trio discover that the sewers are so old and complex that such information has been virtually lost to time. The only possible source of information may be found in the lowest levels of Sharn, in a place known as the Rat's Market. Much to Ezra's disgust, they travel to the low levels where the Rat's market is being held, discovering that the Rat's Market is the mobile shop of a goblin junk dealer named Skakan. Caldan approaches and asks about the valve cluster, and the goblin subtly offers to show them for one hundred silver pieces. Caldan agrees, dropping a platinum piece to pay Skakan, who quickly conceals the valuable coinage and packs up his shop.

Meanwhile, Ezra notices a shifter paying Caldan too much attention, but the shifter detects that he has been caught and disappears into the crowd. Once the PCs are away from the crowd with Skakan, he scolds Caldan for flashing platinum around down in the lower levels; warning him that the next time he does something so careless he'll probably end up with a cut throat. Caldan acknowledges his mistake and apologizes.

Following Skakan's directions, the PCs find the valve cluster, the trek through the sewers further disgusting Ezra. It is here that they are jumped by another warforged and his shifter allies. This warforged is more effective than the last one, catching Train off-guard with a sneak attack while the shifters brutalize Caldan and Ezra. Ezra tricks one shifter in front of one of the valves as it opens, spraying a torrent of water that knocks the shifter to the ground allowing Ezra to kill him. With effort, they defeat the warforged and remaining shifter, another creature peeling off the warforged's stomach and flying off. They are forced to wade through the water, Ezra accepting this only because his clothes were already soiled in the battle, and find a sealed door. Using the magic seal on the journal, they open the door, which drops away into darkness. Securing a rope, they climb down and find themselves in some long-abandoned ruins.

The light of their spells draws the attention of a swarm of beetles, which swarm Ezra, badly injuring him. He runs deeper into the ruins while Caldan desperately tries to burn away the swarm with his Burning Hands spell, sadly with little effect. Ezra ends up running into a dire rat's nest, causing the mated pair to attack him. As the beetles swarm Caldan, Train rushes to Ezra's aid beating the rats to death as Ezra succumbs to his injuries and falls unconscious. Caldan manages to disperse the swarm with a second blast of Burning Hands, and the trio take refuge in a ruined temple to rest for the night.

The next day they venture back into the ruins and find the Cannith foundry, though it is sealed shut behind adamantine doors. Discovering a hole in the roof, the trio secure a rope and climb down into the building. Inside they are attacked by a pair of mechanical dogs whose foreheads pop open, revealing oddly shaped rods when they are destroyed. Finding the vault, Ezra sets off the trap by carelessly stepping onto the metal tiles that are electrified. Examining the trap, he realizes that the trap is too advanced for him to disarm, but he can deactivate the trap with the rods from the dogs. They recover the third rod from the head of the third dog, which was crushed when the section of the ceiling collapsed. After one failed attempt to put the rods in the correct order, Ezra gets the pattern right and unlocks the foundry's vault. Finding the Schema and looting everything of value from the foundry, the trio tries to escape but realize that without a wall to brace against, none of them have the skill to climb up the rope. However, they also learn that the exterior doors are only plated in a thin layer of adamantine, and Train is easily able to bash his way out through the doors. Once out of the foundry, they are attacked by yet another warforged. This one speaks to them, introducing himself as Saber, and offers to let them go if they hand over the Schema. Refusing, the trio fight and together manage to force Saber to retreat.

They make their way back to the Broken Anvil and hand over the Schema for their payment. Pleased, Elaydren tells them she will message them through the Sivis message station if she has another job for them. Returning home, Ezra's mother fusses over her son, who is filthy and covered in bruises. She questions why her husband bothered to purchased Train to protect Ezra if he is just going to end up in this kind of condition anyway. She dotes over Ezra and sends their maid to clean Train. This requires a lot of steel wool to scrub the filth off the warforged, which seems to be one of the few things he enjoys. Caldan returns to the House Orien compound, where the maids all fuss over him; any dragonmarked heir is important, no matter how distantly related to the main family.

GM Notes:

This first adventure really marked the difference between Eberron and the usual medieval fantasy setting. Simply having people call for guards, something I reminded myself to do by giving the citizens a place in the initiative order, and having those guards be genuinely competent was a shock for my players.

One thing to note that the adventure doesn't mention is that the Lord of Blades is a very mysterious figure; the warforged in the adventure could be working for him or on their own. Make sure to have Elaydren mention the Sivis message station, as it's a critical point in the follow-up adventure. However, I am running my players on the Slow EXP track for this campaign, so they aren't ready yet to tackle that adventure.

For anyone curious, I am using the Automatic Bonus Progression for magical items, the Feat Tax house rules, and Action Points instead of Traits. I am using some of the rules found on Tzizimine's Eberron Pathfinder site, particularly for the Artificer, but original 3.5 rules for other things, such as the warforged, as I don't like all the changes made to them.

Thanks for the swift response tzizimine, and, again, thank you for the great conversion.

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I want to say how much I love your site; the conversion you've done has served my players and me well during our Eberron campaign. However, your site went down yesterday and it has left me deeply concerned as to whether or not the problem is a simple matter and the site will soon return or if this is a more serious matter.

This thread being five years old, I worry that you will not get this message. If and when you do, I hope this matter can be resolved.

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Well the meta reason is probably because the game developers don't have many opportunities to use celestials so they took this opportunity.

But as the other have said the in game reason is probably that Unity sees itself as a positive entity that is going to bring peace and harmony to the world. You can play this up by having him talk to the PCs about how once he is a god he will purge suffering from the world and have him regard the PCs as agents of evil. By the last module Unity has gathered quite a bit of information about the PCs so the GM cam bring up their failures or the rioting they caused in Starfall as things they have done to cause suffering. Unity could constantly ask them to stop fighting and offer to 'take away their pain' ie do what he did to Ozmyn Zaidow and Ophelia to them.

Characters who make it to the final adventure would make excellent servants for Unity after all.

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Rysky wrote:

That's not what people talk about when they bring up cultural appropriation and no one has made that claim.

"I don't believe in it" is dismissive to the discussion, it doesn't add anything.

"I don't believe in it" is part of the discussion and I explained why above. Ignoring others contributions and explanations also adds nothing to the conversation. Additionally, it's up to each person to decide what points add something to the conversation for them, you don't get to dictate what does and does not have value.

Claxon wrote:

I agree with you. Checks that have no mechanical effect are dumb and shouldn't happen.

If you are trying to keep quite, it's a stealth check with a penalty.

If you want to intimidate someone because you're a monster who doesn't notice damage, then you're rolling an intimidate check. It would make a cool feat that anytime you take damage equal to your character level or more that you can attempt an intimidate check against an enemy.

But if your just rolling not to scream it pain and all it does is "impress" the enemy that's dumb and you shouldn't roll.

The OP didn't give a reason why the check was being made, so there is no reason to assume and denounce that the check is being made frivolously.

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Rysky wrote:
The thread is on how one deals with cultural appropriation and creating settings. "I don't believe in it" doesn't address the question OP put forth nor is it helpful.

Actually, that goes straight to the heart of the matter the OP is asking. He said 'it's incredibly hard to create a fantasy culture or people that doesn't feel at least somewhat inspired by one that exists in the "real world".' and 'shouldn't we try to celebrate all the awesome stuff that people have done and are in the world?'

But cultural appropriation theory says that your not allowed to incorporate elements of other cultures because it's a form of cultural theft. Critics of this theory explain that all cultures were formed my taking aspects of other cultures and incorporating them together into a new culture and if that is how all cultures are formed then 'cultural appropriating' is just part of the natural evolution of all cultures and is nothing bad or shameful. If we are not allowed to talk about these things then the OP's answer will never be answered.

However, much like the 'Fist of the Ruby Phoenix' thread I don't think it's appropriate for the environment that Paizo is looking to foster in it's forum and therefore this thread should be locked as well. There are more appropriate forum where one can discuss cultural appropriation and other matters of social justice.

Zepheri wrote:
Still thinking in martial class, what...

Back in 3rd with the Concentration skill I might have said that were trained, but in Pathfinder where their concentration is tied to their connection to magical development, being tied to their level and primary casting stat, I’d imagine it was more of a matter of the natural ability to channel magic. That’s assuming you were citing their ability to complete a spell through the pain of getting struck as a caster being potentially trained to resist pain.

HighLordNiteshade wrote:
I had not seen that was good to watch. The players I've had to dump before essentially boil down to one type--stopping me (the DM) and/or the other players from having fun. Being excessively argumentative, wanting to stop the game to debate the minutia of a rule, yelling at other players for their character's decisions, all boils down to putting the breaks on other people's fun. I especially liked the players helping with food DM for 1990-1992 (who is now a player in my group) instituted a "Coke tax" as the group kept expecting him to provide the soda for the games. And as a side note, with the age of most of my group and the fact that almost everyone has kids, we're a lot more tolerant of last-minute game night changes or switching nights on different weeks than we were back in college. ;-)

Ya his RPG Philosophy and Running RPGs are all very helpful, but all his videos in general are quite helpful and entertaining. If you really liked the food comment you should check out his Five Awesome Player Traits video as well.

Show them The RPG Social Contract by Seth Skorkowsky and ask them if they understand and can explain it back to you. If they don't understand it or can't explain what it means then likely they won't be a good fit for your group.


Honestly, I am a bit of a fan of Seth's, but when I read your intro and the problem it seemed to be describing the RPG Social Contract did pop into my head. So give it a watch and maybe it'll be helpful.

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Reksew_Trebla wrote:

None. Once you have even a single level in a PC class, you have enough experience to no longer flinch/cry out in pain from battle.

Proof: Go to any martial arts trainer, and watch a match between the second lowest level of tier (usually known as a belt) that actually engages in sparring matches.

They will not flinch. They will not cry out in pain. And a 1st level PC class is above that in training, especially the martial ones, as there is no way in hell that that student has enough training to be proficient in all simple and martial weapons, but a 1st level Fighter is. Which means they have actually trained in actual sparring matches, with every f&&%ing last “normal” (read: non-exotic) weapon, to be proficient with them.

Martial artists won’t flinch at a form and intensity of pain that they train with all the time, true, but expose them to a very different, unexpected, or very intense form of pain and they will certainly flinch.

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thejeff wrote:
The1Ryu wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

Just to note that people usually offended by Asian portrayals in American media tend to be Asian-Americans.

I don't have very deep understanding of this subject, but its pretty much about minority feeling stereotyped or marginalized by the majority. It's different thing from when you are part of the majority and see foreigners stereotyping you, lot of people in that position just find it funny or amusing. (I can confirm, finnish stereotypes are funny :p UNLESS its done by Swedish in which case we resent portrayal as violent alcoholics ;P )

I find this fascinating. So if I consider the depiction of an American in a piece of media to be offensive that doesn't matter because I live in the US. But if I move to Japan my opinions about the depiction suddenly become valid and I should be listened to because I'm now a minority?

I think the argument is more the other way around: People living in their own culture, especially when that culture is a world power, are more likely to laugh off other culture's bad takes of them. People from that culture living within the other culture, are less likely to do so.

In other words, we shouldn't let the fact that most Americans living in America are just amused by American depictions in Japanese media override the complaints of Americans living in Japan.

There is also a separate argument you might be thinking of that CorvusMask wasn't making, which is that power matters. Dominant groups should be especially careful about bad depictions of minority groups because when those holding the power spread harmful stereotypes of others it's far more likely to lead to harm than the other way around. The underprivileged group lacks as much power to act on those harmful stereotypes.

What constitutes a ‘bad depiction’ or a stereotype? What is the criteria that one uses to determine if something is one of these things and what way do a privileged group, in these examples Americans as a whole, act on harmful stereotypes. Isn’t the ability to demand one group be more considerate to another group which then is not equally call upon to be considerate to the first group a form of power that the ‘underprivileged’ over the ‘privileged’ group.

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CorvusMask wrote:

Just to note that people usually offended by Asian portrayals in American media tend to be Asian-Americans.

I don't have very deep understanding of this subject, but its pretty much about minority feeling stereotyped or marginalized by the majority. It's different thing from when you are part of the majority and see foreigners stereotyping you, lot of people in that position just find it funny or amusing. (I can confirm, finnish stereotypes are funny :p UNLESS its done by Swedish in which case we resent portrayal as violent alcoholics ;P )

I find this fascinating. So if I consider the depiction of an American in a piece of media to be offensive that doesn't matter because I live in the US. But if I move to Japan my opinions about the depiction suddenly become valid and I should be listened to because I'm now a minority?

I would say that it’s triggered on the roll, one round expense. As the ability says you’re calling on fortune favour to increase your chances of success. You’re not using the ability to say hypnotize the person to see things your way.

You are correct, that is how it works and it is excessively deadly.
You can alter the effect if you like of course, I suggest the first failed saves makes you fatigued, next failed save you become exhausted, the hp to zero, -1, then death.

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TheGreatWot wrote:
Zepheri wrote:
Can you guys please stop fighting about rules and post if you're still playing the game and what are you playing

Fine, fine. I'm currently writing the AP that Artofregicide is planning to run. I recently dropped my first draft and am on my second draft, and he's kind of doing his own thing in terms of choosing which one to use and how to convert the two into one whole.

I hope to DM it in 1e eventually, when it's done and when I can actually find a group.

Oh man that's so cool, writing your own adventure that someone else will run is something few people do. Do be careful to never mis-label something, because no matter how clear you are in the text about what something is, if it accidentally ends up somewhere it shouldn't people will never stop screeching about it.

Anyways, I've love to read your AP some day. Is it going to go to level 20? My players are always complaining that the standard AP never let them go to level twenty and get their class capstone.

Will save, crying out in pain is a compulsion, so Will vs compulsion.

Obscuring mist. It’s a low level spell, cheat to use and it clears away quickly enough.

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Gorbacz wrote:

Well, page 183 of the Core Rulebook tells me that 5 foot step is "No Action". The book contradicts itself.

We're not going to come to a conclusion and honestly, I think you can't make a 5fs after a teleport, because that makes SENSE. But the point was that the PF1 action system is dense, exception-based, self-contradictory and leads to repeated arguments (the "what is an attack/attack action/standard action used to make an attack" argument is right next door).

And if you go to page 189 it's listed under Miscellaneous actions, that's were it actually talks about the action. You're free to interpret the rules however you like. They are not inherently self-contradictory, however the world is a imperfect place, as are the rules of any game system, I sure you can find a contradiction if you look hard enough, however this isn't one.

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Artofregicide wrote:
Ooooo! What encounters have them trouble? And have you posted on the obituary thread for SA?

It was some years back I can say specifically and before I knew about the obituaries. Each encounter in the Dreamlands just seemed way too tough for them, and that was after they breezed through the second adventure, they did it backwards going to Iris Hill before the Fort. They got so man inanities they eventually couldn't do anything. One character went psychotic and murdered the others.

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Artofregicide wrote:

I'm swapping my Strange Aeons group to PF2e once they hit book 3. If do it now but they're deep into The Thrushmoore Terror and I've already rewritten the entire book once already.

The reason? PF1e is too complicated for them. And they keep forgetting their abilities, actions, etc. That's not a jab on PF2e, it's a testament to the fact that it handles really hardcore and casual players really well.

Now to figure out how to convert the Mesmerist class...

Man, Dreams of the Yellow King just thrashed my party. The Dreamlands just kicked their teeth in. It was one of the only adventure paths that ended in failure for us.

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Zepheri wrote:

ok question why did you start to play Pathfinder 1e? To remember old day of 3.5? If you want a change why don't you stick with d&d 4&5e?

Pathfinder 1e was for me to remember my old days of school and college where I can play with my friend a lot of adventure. Changing to 2e it's like to kill the 1e format

Before you criticism the 1e, try to remember why you start playing again that format.

Backwards compatibility.

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Gorbacz wrote:

You haven't addressed the question. Is 5-foot step an action? The book says no, it isn't. It doesn't fall into any action type. The spell says you can't take an action after it. So, you can take a 5-foot step, because it's not an action.

Of course, there are lots of actually intelligent counter-arguments, starting with one that teleporting could be considered "movement", so you shouldn't be able to take a 5fs after it. Or the argument that it would be really weird if ddoor prevented you from taking a free action to talk (as much as GM allows you) but not prevented you from taking a 5-foot step.

But there's no clear answer in the rules and we can argue until the end of days.

A 5ft step is listed under miscellaneous actions so yes it is an action and no according to spell you can't do it.

You can consider teleporting "movement" but it's not, it's a spell. Ddoor does technically prevent your character from speaking to the other characters, but it's not as if your character is standing around for a long time unable to speak. A combat round is only six seconds and technically all the characters are acting at the same time. If your character did nothing but cast DDoor he would lose like three seconds of interaction. You seem to be confusing combat how it appears to you sitting at a table where a round could take 1, 5, 10 minutes, to how the combat appears to your character which is always no more than 6 seconds.

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Jhaeman wrote:
If a core gameplay element like action economy can be a "burning mess" and an "obtuse mess" but plenty of fun can still be had playing the game, the edition must not be quite so awful. Perhaps it'd be useful for multiple posters on all sides to cool down the rhetoric in this thread and get back to the original post? Why don't you tell us a bit about what PF1 games you're playing? I'm sure people are curious.

I'm running two games, both adventure paths, Reign of Winter and Iron Gods. Interestingly they are both in the final book. My Reign of Winter Party consists of a Arcane Trickster, a Cleric of Gorum, an Greta, the Winter Wolf Fighter NPC they met in the second adventure. Iron Gods Party consists of Archeologist(Bard Archtype), a Megus, and a Paladin of Sarenrae. The Archeologist and Megus are both technologically savvy and took over the Technic League. The Paladin killed the Black Sovereign and took his place as ruler of Numeria.

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Gorbacz wrote:

Why not? Sure, the spell is clear, it says you can't take any actions after ddoring.

But what action is 5ft step? Is it even an action? The game has move, standard, swift, immediate, free and full-round actions and in the very "Action Types in Combat" table in the Core Rulebook, it says under "No Action", there's the 5-foot step. So is it an action, or isn't it one?

There've been massive threads where people would argue back and forth about this. Both interpretations are valid. Both could be correct if ever Paizo would issue a FAQ/errata on this (they won't). But the entire problem arises from the action system in PF1 being an obtuse mess that it is. Unlike, erm, the PF2 one.

Why not? Because that's how that spell works, you don't like how the spell works don't use it.

You answer your own question about 5ft steps here so I'm not going to repeat you. It is clearly explained what a 5ft step is and the reason you can't take a move action to move afterwards is because the 5ft step doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity so to make sure it's not abused, it has that limitation put on it.

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Gorbacz wrote:
The best explanation of how PF1 action system was a burning mess compared to PF2 system, by LuniasM (shamelessly stealing instead of linking):

(Go Gorbacz post if you want to read LuniasM post)

Well this is a completely dishonest comparison. Why?
Because LuniasM brings up 1-round actions, which is really only allpies to a small number of spells, it's not one of the base action types, it would be like me bringing up Ritual casting time while talking about 2e actions. He comments on his personal opinions of 1e actions type, "it takes your next turn's Swift Action to do it - don't worry if you forget about that, because I probably will too." Which is a form of poisoning the well. He blatantly lies and says you can't take a 5ft step and then cast a spell that teleports you, that's not true you simple can take a 5ft step before after making a Move Action to Move. And continues this by claiming you can't take any move after teleporting which is also not true except for Dimension Door which has built into to the spell that it immediately ends your turn after casting it. Then he talking about other actions you can take as give categories of actions, but he never does this with 2e example, and situational things that effect your action in 1e but not 2e. And his point is that he wrote said explanations and because the first is longer, with much more details added in along with his personal commentary, therefore 2e is a better system. Again this comparison is completely dishonest.

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Scavion wrote:

No. My response was not that it's too much trouble and therefore game is bad. It's very rude to put words in people's mouths. I said that it's a crapshoot. It's unlikely to work and functions only in niche circumstances. If your opponent is mindless and lacks combat reflexes, sure! You MIGHT succeed(If they're humanoid/medium or smaller). Probably not with how CMD scales outrageously but that's yet another fault of combat maneuvers. And again, since you seem to be misunderstanding my point, the bad aspects to the system don't outweigh largely what I believe to be the good.

Do you really think people don't know how to play Rogues? Do you think nobody on these forums play/played Rogues since Pathfinder's release in 2009 or prior in 3.5(which they had a really rough time unless prestiging/multiclassing). It's not even that much math to show that Rogues are bad. They lack accuracy, they lack saving throws, they have poor AC, and don't have a very good Hit Die to make up for it. They're mediocre at skills and lack any unique mechanics to draw one to play them.

This part right here is why nobody is taking you seriously, say that you are arguing in bad faith and are possibly a bad actor. You are assuming nobody here has played...

I didn’t put any swords in your mouth dude again I have had players ya combat maneuvers all the way up to level 18 and you are wrong, I actively tried to counter my player and he was still effective, similarly I have taken and ran rogues to max level I was not just doing the things from your ABC list. The fact that list is your argument as to why rogues are bad is how I know you have no idea what you’re talking about, I’m not assuming anything you are telling me through faulty reasoning that you don’t know how to play rogues or fighters or use Combat Maneuvers don’t blame me because you can’t make a real argument.

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Rogue Fact Checker wrote:
The1Ryu wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
The1Ryu wrote:
Dude why are you casting me as the bad actor here, I'm just having a discussion

No, you are not. You are not even attempting to see the conversation from any viewpoint but your own. You are denying everything that anyone else says and putting forth your viewpoint as the only valid one. For there to be a discussion there must be the possibility of changing minds. Yours has appeared to be made up from the very first post.

No I’m making counter points and when people’s arguments involve them misrepresenting game rules to say the other game is better that just shows they are incorrect. Also why am I the only one who has to be willing to change their mind, which I’m looking for example to prove you point not asserting points for mine, should those that choose to engage in the conversation also be willing to change their mind?

There are easy arguments you can make vs PF2e and the same against PF1e. Saying PF1e can be overly complex to it's detriment is a fact. It's a simulationist game vs a more Rules lite game. The fact that PF2e has less rules minutiae is a simple fact. Do I think that makes it a "better" game? No. Do I believe that can carry it's own appeal? Sure! Do I think you might be disingenuous with some of your arguments? Yes, some bordering on intellectual dishonesty.

Maneuvers being awful without the feat is a simple fact. You provoke, and if the attack of opportunity hits, take anywhere between 1-40 penalty on your maneuvers now. Baiting AoOs so you don't provoke is always a crapshoot.

There are literally hundreds of threads proving mathematically and thematically that the Rogue is an awfully designed class. Same with Fighter pre-weapon master handbook. There's no reason to play a Rogue besides having the words "Rogue" on your character sheet.

Again I’m not arguing which is better I’m asking for examples to show that the claim 2e is better is accurate.

Yes, if you’re opponent can make an AoO and it hits there is a penalty that why you work around that circumstance. I have walked you all through how to do it effectively and your response it that’s too much trouble for me so therefore the game is bad, that is your problem not the game’s.

Why is the rogue made, because people who never play the game did a bunch of math to show that the rogue is bad. I’m talking about real gameplay not forum nonsense that create things like Pun-Pun that doesn’t even work purely mechanically. Rogues and fighters work just fine in proper gameplay take from someone with actual experience.

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Albatoonoe wrote:
The1Ryu wrote:
1e Actions could easily and accurately described in the same way you described 2e actions. Three and a reaction some taking multiple action aka a full round action.
No they cannot. There are so many exceptions and corner cases that simply do not exist in PF2.

There are plenty of exceptions to how you described 2e action. How you ‘can’ describe is vastly different in both case than a full description of something. But leaving things out and forcing GMs to make calls in place of proper rules has its own set of problems creating more instances where people’s interpretations of the rules will clash.

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Gorbacz wrote:
The1Ryu wrote:
Albatoonoe wrote:

Come on, man. Combat Maneuvers without the feats were "effectively" invalid, not "actually". Most other actions were easily more reliable and less risky. Stop being a pedant. I don't see how you can even say that PF1's action system isn't more complicated, either.

You get a Standard, Move, Swift, and Reaction. The Move and Standard can be combined for a full action. The standard can be traded for a move but not vice versa. Steps are a free action but they disallow movement. Some actions use the movement action without moving the character, etc.


You have three actions and a reaction. Some things take multiple actions

I don’t agree and as a forever GM I have a ton of examples on both sides of the GM screen to show that they are effective even without feats.

1e Actions could easily and accurately described in the same way you described 2e actions. Three and a reaction some taking multiple action aka a full round action.

So, can you take a 5-foot step after a teleport/ddoor in PF1?

Not after ddoor but that’s and effect of the spell not the rules governing action.

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Albatoonoe wrote:

Come on, man. Combat Maneuvers without the feats were "effectively" invalid, not "actually". Most other actions were easily more reliable and less risky. Stop being a pedant. I don't see how you can even say that PF1's action system isn't more complicated, either.

You get a Standard, Move, Swift, and Reaction. The Move and Standard can be combined for a full action. The standard can be traded for a move but not vice versa. Steps are a free action but they disallow movement. Some actions use the movement action without moving the character, etc.


You have three actions and a reaction. Some things take multiple actions

I don’t agree and as a forever GM I have a ton of examples on both sides of the GM screen to show that they are effective even without feats.

1e Actions could easily and accurately described in the same way you described 2e actions. Three and a reaction some taking multiple action aka a full round action.

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gnoams wrote:
Pf2 is easier for new players. There is a uniformity to the pf2 rules that makes them a bit more intuitive than pf1 is.

Again there are no examples here, just assertions. How is making characters in 2e faster when you have to pick all your class features? How is the optimal/suboptimal gap smaller? Optimizing any character takes planning that’s not unique to 1e. You can do three things a turn in 1e: move, standard, and swift action. How is that more complex? How is 2e less complex? Why do I have to take an action to defend myself with a shield?

I have read and played these rules I fail to see how they make the game better, they just force me, the GM, to make more rulings and interpret the rules. However I can fall back into established ruling from older systems, new players don’t have that benefit. That dependency doesn’t make the game better, but does create more problems via conflicting interpretations of the new less precise rules. However that experience is irrelevant to the conversation, if you make an assertion it’s on you to provide examples to prove that assertion.

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TheGreatWot wrote:

Sure, but what gives that game its wider appeal?

A more streamlined system, less complex or annoying rules, and a much larger appeal to beginners, since it's so much easier to learn. See the success of D&D 5e, which is orders of magnitude less complex than 3.5 but flows much more smoothly and is far easier for beginners to get into.

From what I can tell, that's the direction Paizo wanted to take 2e. It remains more complex than 5e, but many of the changes have come in the form of making the classes more balanced, lowering the power divide between martials and casters, and making gameplay and character building overall more intuitive. That may not be "perfect" in the eyes of people (like me) who actually enjoy the insane complexity and ridiculous power that you can achieve in 3.5 or Pathfinder 1e, but to others, it may be a vastly more enjoyable system.

Also see the ability of fighters and the like to do much more than charge and full attack- there are options in 2e that did not exist, or were not easily accessible, in 1e. A game can contain more, or simply improved, options without being complex.

I don't think that "technically perfect" or "better rules" applies at all to this comparison. There is no strictly objective way to make a game like Pathfinder better, hence all the rabid arguments over the two editions that spring up so frequently.

And again I ask how is it simpler, a more streamlined system? How are its rules less complex or annoying?

Is it easier for newcomers? I’ve watched newcomers to 5e flounder in confusion at the system and struggle to figure out how to do things.
Does there need to be more balance between martial and spellcaster? I’ve seen many spellcasters completely overwhelmed by martial characters. What options exist in 2e that didn’t in 1e? Fighters have always had many options other than charge and full-attack so I don’t see any improvement.
You are just asserting these things without giving real examples, if the game really does have these improved qualities then they should be easy to put on display.

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Ryan Freire wrote:
It has newer rules and 1/100th the content so there's less opportunity for rules to be a problem so far.

Asserting that it’s better because it’s newer is a complete fallacy. How much content 1e had is irrelevant because one no one needs to use anything beyond the core rulebook and 1e having more content is irrelevant because eventually 2e will build up a similar amount of content that addition content won’t change the quality of the game.

Honestly if 2e is better where are the actual examples of where it’s system is better than 1e.

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gnoams wrote:
PF2 has better rules,

People keep saying that, but for all the studying I’ve done of the system I don’t see that 2e has better rules. I’d like some examples before I accept such a statement.

1. That works for me.

2. well I'm not the best with scaled maps I'd guess the distance looks to be about 100 miles front site B to site C then add the vertical height. so that's 6.25 days at chacter speed of 20ft or 4 days with a character speed of 30ft.

3. I admit the book could be clearer, but it mentions the fasting in a paragraph directly following the explanation about True Seeing so it's reasonable to assume they are speaking on the same matter.

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