GM Says I Have To Cast Windy Escape Before Attack Result Is Determined


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Rory wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

I wrote that spell, and I've always allowed it to turn a hit into a miss.

Does the spell cause a hit to actually miss though?

Or does it just give "DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack" against that single attack?

If it does cause a hit to actually miss, then when does any of that verbiage come into play?

Sorry, it was late, I was sleepy. I should have been more clear. :)

I did not mean to suggest the spell actually causes the attack to miss. I think of that "decide after the roll is revealed" mechanic as "turning hits into misses"

So was it inspired by the twins from Matrix Reloaded?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
thorin001 wrote:


That interpretation grinds the game to a halt. Or it invalidates most immediate actions. Because it takes a lot longer to go through this process:
DM: You are being attacked.
Player: Okay, I do X.
DM: [rolls dice] Does a X hit you?
Player: y/n

than it does to just do the last 2 steps and then have then player decide to use whatever ability. Why? Because you have to pause and give the player time to react for each and every attack even though 90% of the time there will be nothing to wait for. And if you just roll the dice without giving any chance to use immediate actions then you have just made those abilities non-functional by your ruling.

Because:

DM: You are being attacked.
DM: [rolls dice] Does a X hit you?
Player: y/n
if yes:
Player: Okay, I do X.

Is faster than

DM: You are being attacked.
Player: Okay, I do X.
DM: this guy can bypass DR 10/Magic? Y/N
If yes, [rolls dice] Does a X hit you?
Player: y/n

Actually it is slower as the GM don't even need to roll the dice if the attacker can't bypass DR 10/magic.


bbangerter wrote:
thorin001 wrote:


That interpretation grinds the game to a halt. Or it invalidates most immediate actions. Because it takes a lot longer to go through this process:
DM: You are being attacked.
Player: Okay, I do X.
DM: [rolls dice] Does a X hit you?
Player: y/n

than it does to just do the last 2 steps and then have then player decide to use whatever ability. Why? Because you have to pause and give the player time to react for each and every attack even though 90% of the time there will be nothing to wait for. And if you just roll the dice without giving any chance to use immediate actions then you have just made those abilities non-functional by your ruling.

The rules don't really care how complicated it is to run at the table. (see Sacred Geometry). Though complicated rules do make for poor rule design and will often result in GM's not running them in strict adherence to the rules. The complication is not a reason to say the RAW reads one way or another, its just a reason to house rule it if the actual RAW (whatever that may be) is to much of an irritating issue to deal with.

But when there are multiple interpretations the more cumbersome one is less likely to be the intended (or right) one.

Dark Archive

Philo Pharynx wrote:
Shadowlords wrote:

My question is can you cast it while flat footed against an attack you don't know about.

I had a player get attacked from an invisible / hidden foe, in a non combat situation the player was in (walking around in a library).

He interjects the attack with i cast windy escape, after he had failed his perception checks and was reading a book.

I denied him and he got a little annoyed that i "took his abilities away"

From my side of it, you didn't know you were getting attacked until the sword was already halfway through your shoulder so how could you windy escape out of the way...

The rules say explicitly that you cannot use immediate actions while flat-footed. It's under the definition of immediate action.

I actually did not know the rules spelt that out. I just tried to logic it for that situation. Its nice to know that the rules do sometimes follow logic. Thank you.


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Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
I did not mean to suggest the spell actually causes the attack to miss. I think of that "decide after the roll is revealed" mechanic as "turning hits into misses"

Thank you for the clarification.

I can see why you allow the spell to be cast after the hit is determined, but before the damage is dealt. The ability is not negating the hit. The hit still hits, regardless. The spell is only altering the damage taken.

Makes sense to me at least. Thanks!


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
vhok wrote:
its balanced just fine. its not a spell just anyone can use it has a race req.
Beside the little fact that race requirements don't balance anything, can you cite a rule that say that you must be of a specific race to cast or learn it?

There is one in PFS, but in the game system it is only a suggestion rather than a rule. Each GM gets to decide if it is race limited or not.


thorin001 wrote:


But when there are multiple interpretations the more cumbersome one is less likely to be the intended (or right) one.

What do you base that off of? The grapple rules or the mounted combat rules :)? Its a fair stance to take, but I'm not aware of anything having ever set a precedent for that. Also as Diego points out above, is one or the other really more complicated? It doesn't appear to be so.

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a handful of baiting posts and their responses. Just because something is said under the veil of sarcasm doesn't make it not a jerky thing to post. Please take a moment to revisit our Community Guidelines.


I too want to weigh in on the side of Windy Escape being allowed to be cast after the hit is announced, but before damage taken.

That said, here is the PRD on racial spells:

New Racial Rules wrote:
Spells: The spells in this section are common to spellcasting members of the race. Sometimes they only target members of the race, but often they are just the race's well guarded secrets; members of other races can learn to cast them with GM permission.

There is no mechanic in a wizard's spellbook to make a spell uncopyable by another race. Unless a spell requires the caster to be a specific race, any race could cast it.

How often does an enemy wizard wind up having his spellbook acquired?

Racial spells are guarded by few knowing them, and by having special magics use to prevent access to unauthorized people. And given what magic can do, neither is an impossible barrier to access.

A spell that requires the caster to be of a certain race, however, could be learned by anyone, but the magic will fail if you are not the correct race.

/cevah

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Apparently saying that is a baiting post. I don't get why.


Cevah wrote:

I too want to weigh in on the side of Windy Escape being allowed to be cast after the hit is announced, but before damage taken.

That said, here is the PRD on racial spells:

New Racial Rules wrote:
Spells: The spells in this section are common to spellcasting members of the race. Sometimes they only target members of the race, but often they are just the race's well guarded secrets; members of other races can learn to cast them with GM permission.

There is no mechanic in a wizard's spellbook to make a spell uncopyable by another race. Unless a spell requires the caster to be a specific race, any race could cast it.

How often does an enemy wizard wind up having his spellbook acquired?

Racial spells are guarded by few knowing them, and by having special magics use to prevent access to unauthorized people. And given what magic can do, neither is an impossible barrier to access.

A spell that requires the caster to be of a certain race, however, could be learned by anyone, but the magic will fail if you are not the correct race.

/cevah

yes but it is up to your GM if you ever encounter said spell. so if the gm is fine with the spell and you say you would like to find it you might. but at the same time if the dm doesn't want you to get it don't except to run into a random sylph who is also a caster and also has that 1 random spell. and then start praying they aren't a spontaneous caster so you can copy it from their spell book.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
vhok wrote:
Cevah wrote:

I too want to weigh in on the side of Windy Escape being allowed to be cast after the hit is announced, but before damage taken.

That said, here is the PRD on racial spells:

New Racial Rules wrote:
Spells: The spells in this section are common to spellcasting members of the race. Sometimes they only target members of the race, but often they are just the race's well guarded secrets; members of other races can learn to cast them with GM permission.

There is no mechanic in a wizard's spellbook to make a spell uncopyable by another race. Unless a spell requires the caster to be a specific race, any race could cast it.

How often does an enemy wizard wind up having his spellbook acquired?

Racial spells are guarded by few knowing them, and by having special magics use to prevent access to unauthorized people. And given what magic can do, neither is an impossible barrier to access.

A spell that requires the caster to be of a certain race, however, could be learned by anyone, but the magic will fail if you are not the correct race.

/cevah

yes but it is up to your GM if you ever encounter said spell. so if the gm is fine with the spell and you say you would like to find it you might. but at the same time if the dm doesn't want you to get it don't except to run into a random sylph who is also a caster and also has that 1 random spell. and then start praying they aren't a spontaneous caster so you can copy it from their spell book.

If you are a wizard. And even a wizard can choose it as one of the 2 spells that it get when he rise in level, if he really want it.

"bard 1, druid 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1"
Bards and sorcerers can always choose it when they raise in level, or substitute one of the older spells for it;
druids have access to all the spells on their spell list;
7+ level maguses have the Knowledge Pool ability.

So, unless your GM give spells that aren't available to the PCs to the NPCs you have a way to get it once you know it exist.


Spells: The spells in this section are common to spellcasting members of the race. Sometimes they only target members of the race, but often they are just the race's well guarded secrets; members of other races can learn to cast them with GM permission.

WITH GM PERMISSION.

you have it a bit backwards. its not "you can learn this unless your GM says no"

its "you can't learn this unless your GM says yes"

right now by raw the spell requires you to be a sylph or count as a sylph.

also you must be using pfsrd20 to copy and paste the classes because your are incorrect, or rather incomplete listing the classes and race req

School transmutation [air]; Level arcanist 1, bard 1, bloodrager 1, druid 1, hunter 1, magus 1, red mantis assassin 1, skald 1, sorcerer/wizard 1 (sylph)


vhok wrote:

Spells: The spells in this section are common to spellcasting members of the race. Sometimes they only target members of the race, but often they are just the race's well guarded secrets; members of other races can learn to cast them with GM permission.

WITH GM PERMISSION.

you have it a bit backwards. its not "you can learn this unless your GM says no"

its "you can't learn this unless your GM says yes"

right now by raw the spell requires you to be a sylph or count as a sylph.

If you are of the correct race, it is assumed common, and thus no GM permission needed. The spell does not require you to be a slyph. However, if you are not a slyph, you need GM permission. Not the same as what you said.

vhok wrote:

also you must be using pfsrd20 to copy and paste the classes because your are incorrect, or rather incomplete listing the classes and race req

School transmutation [air]; Level arcanist 1, bard 1, bloodrager 1, druid 1, hunter 1, magus 1, red mantis assassin 1, skald 1, sorcerer/wizard 1 (sylph)

More likely Diego was quoting Mathmuse, who quoted the book the spell appeared in.

previously upthread.... wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
Advance Race Guide, Sylph spells wrote:

WINDY ESCAPE

School transmutation [air]; Level bard 1, druid 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Diego Rossi wrote:
"bard 1, druid 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1"

Also, the name you are looking for is "d20pfsrd" not "pfsrd20". This site aggregates info from a lot of the books, and so lists all the casters that can cast the spell.

As to getting the spell from a spontaneous caster, here are two ways:
1) Blood Transcription after they die (or are killed).
2) Ring of Spell Knowledge when they cast.

/cevah

Silver Crusade

Cevah, that's still subject to GM permission. It wouldn't fly at my table, and it wouldn't fly in PFS.

Way I see it, tying it to race is what makes it work from both a balance and flavor perspective.

Balance-wise, you're giving it to a 6RP race with a CON penalty. They have enough trouble from regular attacks. Unless a GM actually wants to kill the player's sylph character, I don't see why he would get bent out of shape over this. It's hardly an encounter-ending power, and a Sylph that thinks he can gimp on defences just because he has this spell available it either going to run out of lower-level spells very fast, die very fast, or both.

Flavor-wise, they're already partly made of air. It should take far less power to momentarily turn a Sylph into a semi-gaseous state than a human, and forget about the oread. And by the way oreads get Stone Shield, which in my view is far more abusable because it grants cover (which prevents attacks of opportunity AND allows you to make a stealth check) and lasts for 1 whole round. Put it up as a swift action before casting another spell or take a move action to stealth and then 5ft step out to sneak attack. I've even had a player use it in response to a pit trap to buy themselves a round to cast fly. But then again, that's the oread's thing and I think they should be allowed to have their thing.

As for windy escape, since it's an immediate action, anytime before damage is rolled or before a critical threat is confirmed is fine.


SwampTing wrote:
Cevah, that's still subject to GM permission. It wouldn't fly at my table, and it wouldn't fly in PFS.

Are you saying a slyph character needs GM permission to have access to a spell common to the race?

I don't play in PFS, so I don't know their rules. Do they have a rule prohibiting race specific spells? Or is there some allowed resources limit that denies a spell mention in a race's description?

/cevah

Silver Crusade

I was referring to the part where you said the spell does not require you to be a sylph and then listed ways a non-sylph might get access to the spell.

In PFS, the spell is available specifically only to characters of the Sylph race. Non-sylphs can scribe it in their spellbooks if they wanted, or maybe they could even get it in a ring of spell storing, but they are simply unable to cast it.

John Compton wrote:
Even were the human to scribe the wayang spell, it would be bragging rights and nothing more; this process would still not open up the spell for use by the PC. With the exception of one boon I can think of, there's not a way for a PC to learn another race's race-specific spells from the ARG.

At my table, I'd also rule that only a Sylph would be able to use the spell as it interacts specifically with their unique physiology. Like I said, they are a 6RP race with a CON penalty. The ARG gave them access to a special trick. It's their thing. Let them have their thing.

As a more general rule, always respect the GM - outside of PFS, literally everything is subject to GM permission.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Why do you keep acting like Sylphs are a bad race and a mediocre first level spell is somehow supposed to compensate for that?


SwampTing wrote:
Cevah wrote:
SwampTing wrote:
Cevah, that's still subject to GM permission. It wouldn't fly at my table, and it wouldn't fly in PFS.

Are you saying a slyph character needs GM permission to have access to a spell common to the race?

I don't play in PFS, so I don't know their rules. Do they have a rule prohibiting race specific spells? Or is there some allowed resources limit that denies a spell mention in a race's description?

/cevah

I was referring to the part where you said the spell does not require you to be a sylph and then listed ways a non-sylph might get access to the spell.

I don't see any GM permission needed to use Blood Transcription (Ult Magic) or a Ring of Spell Knowledge (Ult Equip) to grab the spell. Neither is limited in any way. And again, there is no rules text to suggest a specific race is needed to cast the spell.

SwampTing wrote:

In PFS, the spell is available specifically only to characters of the Sylph race. Non-sylphs can scribe it in their spellbooks if they wanted, or maybe they could even get it in a ring of spell storing, but they are simply unable to cast it.

John Compton wrote:
Even were the human to scribe the wayang spell, it would be bragging rights and nothing more; this process would still not open up the spell for use by the PC. With the exception of one boon I can think of, there's not a way for a PC to learn another race's race-specific spells from the ARG.

OK. PFS made a ruling, specifically overriding the ARG's text.

SwampTing wrote:

At my table, I'd also rule that only a Sylph would be able to use the spell as it interacts specifically with their unique physiology. Like I said, they are a 6RP race with a CON penalty. The ARG gave them access to a special trick. It's their thing. Let them have their thing.

As a more general rule, always respect the GM - outside of PFS, literally everything is subject to GM permission.

As a house rule, I could live with that.

/cevah

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Cevah wrote:
I don't see any GM permission needed to use Blood Transcription (Ult Magic) or a Ring of Spell Knowledge (Ult Equip) to grab the spell. Neither is limited in any way. And again, there is no rules text to suggest a specific race is needed to cast the spell.

In a home game, sure.

In PFS, there is a rule saying the spell is not available to you.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

My sylph character (in PFS) used it after the GM said "Does xx confirm?"

I have the spell because my little sky druid should not really be in Melee combat... Poor girl, learning about the world in such an environment...


Philo Pharynx wrote:
Shadowlords wrote:

My question is can you cast it while flat footed against an attack you don't know about.

I had a player get attacked from an invisible / hidden foe, in a non combat situation the player was in (walking around in a library).

He interjects the attack with i cast windy escape, after he had failed his perception checks and was reading a book.

I denied him and he got a little annoyed that i "took his abilities away"

From my side of it, you didn't know you were getting attacked until the sword was already halfway through your shoulder so how could you windy escape out of the way...

The rules say explicitly that you cannot use immediate actions while flat-footed. It's under the definition of immediate action.

The problem with this is that it makes reactive abilities like feather fall useless in many situations.

So RAW you are right and, being in the rules section that'S what counts, but I would never tell a player who memorized feather fall that he can't use it because he is flatfooted by the magic trap/by being pushed off a cliff during surprise round etc.

my 2cp

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Just a Guess wrote:
Philo Pharynx wrote:
Shadowlords wrote:

My question is can you cast it while flat footed against an attack you don't know about.

I had a player get attacked from an invisible / hidden foe, in a non combat situation the player was in (walking around in a library).

He interjects the attack with i cast windy escape, after he had failed his perception checks and was reading a book.

I denied him and he got a little annoyed that i "took his abilities away"

From my side of it, you didn't know you were getting attacked until the sword was already halfway through your shoulder so how could you windy escape out of the way...

The rules say explicitly that you cannot use immediate actions while flat-footed. It's under the definition of immediate action.

The problem with this is that it makes reactive abilities like feather fall useless in many situations.

So RAW you are right and, being in the rules section that'S what counts, but I would never tell a player who memorized feather fall that he can't use it because he is flatfooted by the magic trap/by being pushed off a cliff during surprise round etc.

my 2cp

The falling would occur on the player's turn, I believe, so they would no longer be flatfooted, if my understanding of the falling rules are correct.

For surprise rounds? Eh, traps would get a surprise attack, but making it a whole surprise round? That would be more of a dick move than anything.

Of course I'm probably horribly wrong on all of this.


Thread resurrection

Diego, et.al is right on the mechanics of Windy Escape; and one is not able to trigger an immediate action when flat-footed.

Regarding Featherfall, this is one of the reasons to purchase the ring as opposed to memorizing the spell. The ring auto activates, where the spell does not.

RAW, actions can interrupt other actions. Of which there are abundant examples.

Ex: 1 Readied actions interrupting a wizaard spellcasting.
Wizard announces casting fireball. Archer (who had readied 'fire on spell casting') fires; wizard loses spell.

Note that the wizard does not get to redo his turn or change it after the interruption.

Ex 2: Same way: Fighter and wizard are 50 feet from each other. Fighter 10 feet from door. Fighter moves to door. Readies action to duck around door on spell casting.

Wizard casting "charm person" out of luck. No line of effect, spell lost. Wizard casting fireball - fighter out of luck.

Ex 3. Thief 50 feat away from cavalier. Readies move action for when cavalier is 15 feet away. Cavalier announces charge (to nearest square), moves 35 feet (to 15 feet away). Thief readied action goes off. Moves in different direction.

Cavalier continues action.. ie., charge to specified square. He has moved more than a single move. Thief is not there, (nor anyone else) his turn is finished.

Finally, regarding the spell itself.

'You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you. You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.'

If the wizard was responding to the attack roll, the attack would not necessarily hit you. Instead, the spell calls out that the attack passes harmlessly through you.

Same way, notice that it said you are immune to critical effects.
Criticals aren't crits until after a critical confirmation. Ie., the caster can wait until after the attack roll, after the confirmation roll.

He must however declare prior to declaration of damage, because while you can *interrupt* and action, you can no retroactively undo an action with this spell.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Tommy you resurrected a thread to correct a perceived incorrect answer for the OP when the OP is satisfied or never going to read this.

That doesn’t seem like it helps the OP any more than 1000 posts of “yes it does” and “no it doesn’t”.

Plus, there is no solid rules on when and how exactly an immediate interrupts an action, so your answer depends on your GM rules interpretation. There is no “one true RAW”.


James,

There is only one RAW. There are certainly different interpretations. The reasonable-ness of those interpretations is subject to discussion.

Rather than adding mere "yes it is/ or no it isn't" to the commentary, I added different factual components to the argument which were not previously discussed.

Namely:

1. The dancing kobold was presented as an insoluble conundrum. I showed a). The conundrum as presented was illegal per RAW.
b). The correct and easy way to defeat such a kobold. Which
c). Showed that the rules interpretation I favor is not complex.

2. I rebutted the position that idea that once interrupted, a player could change his stated action. RAW is silent about what players actually do; the RAW specifically refers to the game framework. That is 'action' is a defined word, and references to that word take place in the context of that definition.

A player has a variety of actions available to them; Actions in this case refer to what game mechanic a player may do, aka free actions, swift action; std action, move action etc.

3. I also brought up that the wording says crit, not critical threat.

And a few other miscellaneous points.

I don't believe these arguments were advanced so now its in the record, and others reading the debate can consider it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Perfect Tommy wrote:
the attack passes harmlessly through you.

Your whole theories seem to be based on your interpretation of this line.

You seem to discount the fact that could simply mean "miss" or "hit and deal no damage" and you don't have any rules, documentation, or reason to know you are right.


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An attack that misses, or deals no damage would not have any reason to pass harmlessly through you.


you can do immediates after the attack roll before damage to change the result, there are some examples of that like....

Blood Deflection (Su): At 7th level, as an immediate action a steelblood can sacrifice a bloodrager spell slot to gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to the level of the spell sacrificed. The deflection bonus lasts until the start of his next turn. This ability can be applied after an attack roll is made against the steelblood, allowing the steelblood to convert a hit into a miss if the deflection bonus is high enough. This ability replaces damage reduction.

as far as I am concerned you can do windy escape in the same manner

Grand Lodge

The fact that Blood Deflection clearly states that it can be used in such a way and Windy Escape does not could just as easily be used as evidence that Windy Escape cannot be used after the attack roll is made and hit/miss determined and must instead be used when the attack is declared.

I'm not convinced that there is a clear answer to this question.


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they reinforce rules in some abilities just to make sure people know you can use it that way. not because it is an exception. the rule for immediate actions is....

Immediate Action

An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn

however some people think you can't interrupt actions that have multiple parts, like attack rolls and then damage rolls, even though you can.

Scarab Sages

Wow i let them use it after i roll, my players usually only use it if a crit confirms. After all, immediate actions are declared "after" an event happens, but take place before it occurs in the game. I see no problem especially since the player is not going to have tons of copies of it to spam.

Otherwise the spell is pretty worthless to use without knowing and no one should bother with it under those conditions. I can handle one attack missing a caster once in awhile.

However according to my players I am even meaner, I only allow Sylphs to have it, unless a player of another race pays to research the spell. :)

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