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Sorry for the resurrection of an old thread, but came across it while looking for how best to Gestalt as a Kineticist. Something to add, for those not afraid to use a bit of cheese with their Gestalt...

There are 5 classes which get a +2 Will AND +2 Reflexes [Bard, Investigator, Mesmerist, Monk, Vigilante].
There are 10 classes which get a +2 Will AND +2 Fortitude.

** Note: Monk gets +2 to all 3, and not counting AntiPaladin since it don't stack with Paladin.

Using Gestalt to 'dip' into each of those classes means that by level 10 (Do the Reflexes in the first 10 levels), you end up with a 23 Will, and a 20-ish in Rflx and Fort.

Level 10 CALC:

  • 10 (5 classes including Monk) in Reflexes and 12 (6 classes including Monk) in Fort, and 20 in Will from the Gestalt
  • +3 Resistance [Assuming Automatic Bonus Progression is accurate, higher if you have a full +5 Cloak of Resistance]
  • +5 to +6 from 20+ Dex/Con, +0-ish in Wisdom.

Of all the classes out there, I think Kineticist is the best class to do such a dip in, because we don't need other areas... especially as a Telekineticist. You've got Rogue covered, Utility covered, Healing covered, Damage covered, etc... minimize spell tracking, minimize Standard/Full Action usage, and just be a Kineticist that's practically immune to spells and other effects. You only worry about damage, which makes you a great Tank (especially, again, the Telekineticist with Tmp HPs/Force Ward).

Notes: Gray Paladin and Martial Artist are good for you, so you don't have to be Lawful Good. Be Neutral Good to get the Druid bonus as well as the Paladin/Monk bonus.

Another Note: Occultist (Transmutation) adds +2 to one of the 2 Primaries you're using, for another +1 to Rflx or Fort, since you won't use Mental Focus for anything else.

Last Note: I know how cheezy it looks, but this is the optimization forum, so of course it looks cheezy.

I don't know if I entirely agree with the others... It's possible to do this well, and even has me writing down ideas to do something similar...

The only real problem is to make sure that a full BAB is so costly that you can't purchase even mildly low magic (the only way to afford magic being to not get it until much later in the game). The main things players will do is try to get a full bab -with- a great potential side-power.

Similarly with a full magic tree... shouldn't be possible to afford even a middle bab if you have a full magic tree... Other than that, I like the idea of being able to mixup your own abilities... it's not really different than just allowing them to homebrew their own archetypes from scratch (which I almost always end up doing with my players).

That being said... even though I like the idea... I do think it's far smarter and balancing to just write up archetypes that match what they visualize. I tested this out with a friend, and basically he started with trying to build a natural-attack character who could start with a full bab with multiple natural attacks, and a pounce ability. Expect that sort of mentality... :)

I've had a concept in my mind based on the Wardancers of the Warhammer Fantasy Wood Elf army, and wanted to just slightly increase their mystical nature (Ie: some spells, in addition to their enchanted blades). Since they are dual-wielding types I was bending over backwards trying to create a multi-class fighter/wizard(or sorcerer) creation when I finally just decided to hybrid them, and the more I hybrided them, the more Magus they seemed... so I tried an Archetype instead. I -think- it's balanced, but would like some input from others, since I've not played anything like a Magus in quite a long time (Not since the Kineticists came out). Tried to take away more than I added, but not sure I'm objective enough on this.

Elven Blade Master

Elven blade masters are a group of noble born warriors of Xoth Sarandi, trained in both the martial arts of the blade as well as in the mystical arts. The difference between them and other members of the Magus class is that they see the weapon as the tool of the martial aspects, and keep it separated from the mystical aspects of their training. They use a pair of blades and perform katas that appear almost like a dancer, allowing them to flow through a battle much as water flows through a sand barrier.

Class Skills: Elven blade masters gain Perform [Dance] (Cha) as a class skill. This modifies the class skills of the magus.

Diminished Spellcasting
Due to their martial focus, they do not learn to project spells towards living targets, and instead focus most of their spell casting on themselves. When generating the Difficulty Class to resist a spell, the elven blade master always treats her intelligence bonus as 0.

Arcane Pool (Su)
When calculating the amount of arcane points in his pool, an elven blade master uses his whole level rather than half his level, however when using the reservoir of mystical energy to fuel and enhance his weapons, he must spend 2 points from his arcane pool, but gains the benefits onto both of his weapons when doing so. This ability modifies the arcane pool ability of the magus class.

Two Weapon Fighting (Ex)
Elven blade masters start the game with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat as a bonus feat, however, she must meet the requisite of the feat to gain the benefits the feat. This ability replaces Spell Combat.

Two Bladed Defense (Ex)
At second level, an elven blade master gains +1 shield bonus to her AC anytime that she is wielding two light bladed weapons, and wearing light or no armour. This increases by another +1 every 5 levels after 2nd level. The elven blade master may spend one point from their arcana pool to add the enhancement bonus of a single weapon they are wielding to their AC. Note: this is an enhancement bonus, so would not stack with the enhancement bonus of magical armour. This ability replaces spellstrike, medium armour and heavy armour.

Magus Arcana
At third level, the elven blade master gains the dual bladed magus arcana automatically (See below), in place of the Arcana she would otherwise receive at 3rd level. This alters the magus arcana ability of the magus class and replaces the improved spell combat as well as the greater spell combat of the class.

Bonus Feats
Elven blade masters do not gain the bonus feats that other members of the magus class receive, rather they receive Improved Two Weapon Fighting at 8th level as a free bonus feat, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting at 16th level as a free bonus feat. They must still meet the prerequisites of the feats to benefit from them.

Elven Blade Master (Su)
At 20th level, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to all attacks made when wielding two light bladed weapons. This ability replaces the true magus ability of the magus class.

Magus Arcana:
Dual Bladed (Su)
Benefit: When wielding 2 light bladed weapons, she may spend a single point from her arcane pool to use Dexterity instead of Strength in determining damage with her primary hand. This effect lasts for one minute. At 7th level, she may add her dexterity bonus to her damage rolls for both weapons rather than just the primary weapon during this effect, this raises the cost to two points from her arcane pool..

Lady-J wrote:
Sphynx wrote:

Not that I don't like the idea, just haven't tried it yet, though I do think that any 2-handed weapons go counter to my visuality of the character... Prefer to stick with 1-handers.

Also, maybe I'm mis-reading today, but it seems that a WarPriest only gets his bonus on one of his weapons, not all of them?

one weapon type so great sword or kukri or short sword ect.

But that requires 4 Swift Actions, which means that on the round all 4 weapons are made Sacred, you've already lost 3 turns, and can only go 3 more rounds at 16th level.... If there were a way to activate all 4 weapons in the same turn, that might be interesting... but even then, at 16th level, that'd only work for 4 turns... no?

Not that I don't like the idea, just haven't tried it yet, though I do think that any 2-handed weapons go counter to my visuality of the character... Prefer to stick with 1-handers.

Also, maybe I'm mis-reading today, but it seems that a WarPriest only gets his bonus on one of his weapons, not all of them?

Thanks again, for all the input. I'll try out everything... my current build (The aforementioned slayer) ended up with this (not sure if this is 'good' or not).

BTW... this is maximum... boots of speed (haste), raging, sneak attack, everything... so not the typical hit.

8 attacks at +27 (2 at 1d4+24 +5d6 Sneak Attack, 6 at 1d4+16 +5d6 Sneak Attack)
3 attacks at +22 (1 at 1d4+24 +5d6 Sneak Attack, Others at 1d6/1d4+12 +5d6 Sneak Attack)
1 attack at +17 (1d4+24 +5d6 Sneak Attack)

That's 3 level Rogue for Weapon Finesse/Damage.
2 levels Barbarian for a Bite Attack
1 Mammoth Lord Helmet
And of course, 10 levels of Slayer (because the Stygian stuff is awesome)

Not sure what the 16th level should be, so made it Barbarian for longer Rage.

I'll try now with a fighter, but worry that it will be boring with no 'powers' other than fighting. :P

Lady-J wrote:
whats your point buy or rolled stats

25, I took 19 Dex, 14 Con, Str, Int.

Seems a good TWF really requires a Fighter (or tempered paladin) because my calculations say I won't be doing any damage against anything with DR... Tried building a slayer, that I really like, but his damage is terrible without specialization and penetrating...

OMGoodness, I never even heard of Tempered Champion, but it looks amazing (for damage output)! And Tanagaar is my favorite god, just didn't realize that was his weapon... so wow...

I thank everyone for their advice so far, and am constructing various builds in an effort to try all the suggestions. I admit I had no idea about the multiweapon training feat, and have of course, taken that and negated the entire improved/greater which is not compatable with it. This makes me more feat-light than before, as I seem to only need Weapon Finesse and Multi Weapon Fighting.

Synthesist is out (it's the only archetype not allowed), but is a good idea, which I would have strongly considered...

WarPriest is also out, as the only God with that Sacred Weapon is NE, which is too far away from my play-style (I just can't do evil...).

So, my current plan is Unchained Rogue (3)/Slayer [Stygian] (10)/Unknown (3). Though I'm still trying out other builds...

Unfortunately, I'm not very 'optimal' prone, so am not sure what other feats I should have or consider, though the Piranha one seems like a smart choice. Would it make sense to pick up some Natural Attacks (Bite/Tail)? Thinking 2 levels of Urban Barbarian with Animal Fury for bite attack, Mammoth Lord helmet for a Gore, and the Wyvern Cloak. Of course, no enhancement bonuses with those, so they'd be harder to hit with... maybe a bad idea?

I realize I'll be weaker than other fighters since I'm not doing 2-handed weapons for x1.5 so thought more attacks might be helpful... ?

Not married, no, but am married to a "whirlwind of death" character concept. I'd ike 6 limbs instead of 4... am considering a mutagen warrior or something... As for the kukri, that's because theyre the best weapon for a high dex character, but considering also 4 wakizashi and 2 no-dachi for when whirlwind isn't enough...

BTW, love the Medium idea, and will try it out, but pretty sure in the end, I'll have the 3 levels of Rogue going on... at least.

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Oh? Gunslingers are good with Kukris, and without guns?

I'm making a character for a level 16 game, where we were told to feel free to optimize because it'll be a tough game (And there's already a Divine Archer/Paladin). So rather than go for my usual weakest-character-in-the-party build, I thought I'd try something I've always been curious on...

Kasatha with 4 Kukris. However, aside from realizing that I need the two-weapon feat tree, the improved critical feat I can't figure out where I want to go from there. Fighter seems the obvious choice, but also seems a bit boring, and I don't really know which feats to take other than those listed and Weapon Finesse.

Rogue lacks the boredom, and lets me add my Dex to all 4 attacks for damage at 3rd level+, but as a 2/3 BAB seems like I might be struggling to hit... and dependent on sneak attacks (which isn't a terrible thing).

Hunter seems interesting since I seem to be feat-light... alloing me some spells and such.

I have a feeling that I can't support that Swashbuckler might be a good choice, but no guns allowed in our game.

Can anyone help me with a really great 4-weapon build? (I do not want to go Archer, despite the Kasatha archetype available)

The Syrinx, protected by their lofty monastery-cities, high on the cliff-side of the tallest mountains, rely primarily on their devastating hunters to feed the elite amongst them, leaving the lower classes and slaves in their wingless forms, to toil the ground for their food. The greatest of the hunters gain partners amongst the breed of giant owls from the region, these giant owls do not gain the true size of the greatest of the giant owls, often barely reaching 2 meters in height, though ranging up to 16 meters in height. These 2 form a partnership which pits them against each other in striving for greatness in skill.

Winged Parliament is a racial archetype for the elusive Syrinx race presented in the Pathfinder Inner Seas volume. Although intended for Syrinx, it is available to the Strix race as well.

Animal Companion (Ex)
When choosing an animal companion, members of the Winged Parliament must select a Giant Owl as their companion (Or a Roc, if a member of the Strix race). Use the Roc Companions statistics and 7th level Advancement to create the companion. This alters the Animal Companion class feature.

Paragon (Su)
At first level, a Syrinx Hunter loses the racial Nocturnal bonus to the Stealth skill, replacing it with a permanent Animal Focus of the Owl, in addition to improving their fly maneuverability to good. At 8th level they replace the Nocturnal advantage entirely, gaining in place an additional permanent Animal Focus of the Falcon, in addition to their fly maneuverability improving to perfect. This replaces Wild Empathy, Swift Tracker and their Second Animal Focus.

Royalty (Ex)
At 5th level, a Syrinx and her animal companion gain the Wingover feat as a bonus feat, and has their fly speed increased by +10 for every 5 class levels. This replaces Woodland Stride and Bonus Tricks class features.

Flying Separately.

Working on a 12th level Syrinx Hunter, with a Roc Companion (The closest I could get to a Giant Owl).

Any general advice on the direction I should go? I was thinking Stealth Synergy with Flyby Attack and Death from Above, the low dex is bothersome...

The only Hunter guide is missing so much info (or expects you to go back and forth between different guides to evaluate companions and such). And of course, fails to address unique races (for obvious reasons), such as the Syrinx...

So I guess basically what I'm asking is... are there any things that are must-haves for a solid build? Magic items? Feats? Priority list for Teamwork feats (particular with a low Dex)?

That's what I was worried about... too much focus on the unarmed aspect, eh? I don't want them as separate archetype, not just because I want a single racial archetype, but because then you can't do both... One of the cool combos being that you're stealthy until you need to be in combat... a "ninja-ish" Kineticist. After all, we have all the infusions back in place (8+), so you could easily have all these infusions along with the extended range infusion.

Anyhows, don't think there's any way to merge this with the Ascetic archetype. Especially not doing it and keeping a racial theme...

Ok, just finished chatting with my friend, and here's what we have in mind.

We remove the whole unique-talent stuff (Aerokinetic Talents) from the archetype and instead just add infusions that only Zephyrs can take (still debating this one, I want them limited to Zephyrs, but he doesn't see a reason to make them race-specific), giving players the choice to get infusions as normal, or pick up the Zephyr infusions.

Originally, we waited til 5th level for the extra infusion because we had both ForceWard and EnvelopingWinds working at the same time, from 2nd level onwards. But since we had to weaken it, so that force ward is a 7th level thing, the only current advantage a Zephyr has before 3rd level is that he has 2 basic wild talents.

Anyhows, here's our current list of Infusions being added to Zephyrs. The real question now is if we should make these race-specific, or open them up to all Kineticists...

Aerokinetic Stealth wrote:

Aerokinetic Stealth

Element Air; Type substance infusion; Level 2; Burn 1
Prerequisites 5 ranks in Stealth
Associated Blasts Air
Saving Throw none
If currently hiding or concealed, the you only take half your normal penalty for sniping at a target, suffering a -10 on your stealth roll instead of a -20. If you possess at least 10 ranks in stealth, you take half to any stealth penalty on a turn in which you use the air blast.


Aerokinetic Invisibility wrote:

Aerokinetic Invisibility

Element Air; Type substance infusion; Level 5; Burn 1
PrerequisitesAerokinetic Stealth, 10 ranks in stealth
Associated Blasts Air
Saving Throw none
If under the effects of invisibility or in hiding, you may choose to remain invisible or hidden when using the air blast.


Shocking Fists wrote:

Shocking Fists

Element Air; Type form infusion; Level 2; Burn 2
Prerequisites Kinetic Fist
Associated Blasts Electric
Saving Throw none
Your control of local electrical power expands to create an ever more powerful shroud around you and your hands. This works as Kinetic Fist except that the damage is equal to 1 dice of damage for every 2 dice of your kinetic blast, with a minimum of 1d6.


Lightning Gauntlets wrote:

Lightning Gauntlets

Element Air; Type substance infusion; Level 1; Burn 1 or 2, See description
Prerequisites Kinetic Fist
Associated Blasts Electric
Saving Throw none
Your hands are surrounded by crackling fields of electrical energy which extends outwards, shooting blue lines of electrical power outwards towards your enemies. You can expend 1 burn to either use your Dexterity in place of Strength for attacks, or to treat your Kinetic Fist or Shocking Fists as a weapon, and thus avoid attacks of opportunity when unarmed. You can also expend 2 burn to gain both benefits at the same time.


Tesla Burst wrote:

Tesla Burst

Element Air; Type form infusion; Level 3; Burn 2
Prerequisites Kinetic Fist
Associated Blasts Electric
Saving Throw reflex half
You surround yourself with flashes of electrical power that jet outwards in an attempt to fry your opponents. All living creatures within 5 feet of you take damage equal to half your blast's normal damage. If you have the Precise Shot feat, you can choose which creatures within the area of effect take that damage.


Tesla Explosion wrote:

Tesla Explosion

Element Air; Type form infusion; Level 5; Burn 3
Prerequisites Tesla Burst
Associated Blasts Electric
Saving Throw reflex half
Your mastery of the electrical power within you reaches a crescendo. All living creatures within 20 feet of you take damage equal to half your blast's normal damage, all living creatures within 5 feet of you take full damage instead. If you have the Precise Shot feat, you can choose which creatures within the area of effect take that damage.


Through the Cracks wrote:

Through the Cracks

Element Air; Type form infusion; Level 1; Burn 1
Prerequisites Precise Shot feat
Associated Blasts Air
Saving Throw none
Your air blast snakes its way around obstacles to find its target. As long as you can actually see your target through line of sight, that target does not gain any benefits from soft cover, partial cover or concealment,


Wind Strewn wrote:

Wind Strewn

Element Air; Type substance infusion; Level 3; Burn 2
Associated Blasts Air
Saving Throw none
Your air blast affects incorporeal creatures with the same effectiveness that it has against corporeal creatures. Treat your blast is if it has the Ghost Touch weapon special ability.


Thunderstorm Finale wrote:

Thunderstorm Finale

Element Air; Type substance infusion; Level 7; Burn 2
Associated Blasts Thunderstorm
Saving Throw none
When using the Thunderstorm Composite Blast, you can increase the damage die to d8 instead of d6.

PS. Something to note... something I've done in my .user files is give all Animal Companions both a 4th level boost and a 7th level boost. The ones that only get a 4th level boost tend to be overtly underwhelming.

I will be seriously following this thread. I also strongly agree with DM_Blake that rather than go on a 1-up escalation, first lower the bar on the ones that are too powerful.

Mudfoot makes a powerful point about cats... halving their Strength, but letting them "Rage" would be a good start (though I wouldn't call it rage, just simulate rage to boost strength/dexterity for a few rounds per day). Their real strength is the raw number of attacks, it shouldn't be their strength. Maybe even treat their Strength as even lower (after halving, or whatever) for purpose of encumbrance...

That being said... end result should be that any combat-companion should have about half the DPR of combat players.

Anyhoots, so far so good. Bear and Boar are looking nice, though I'd want to see how they play-test of course.

Actually, you get infusions at 1st, 9th and 17th with the choice of infusion or utility at 15th and 7th when you Expand (5 infusions + 2 Tesla infusions).

That being said, yeah, I ran into many of the same problems, with me feeling a -need- to take a class or 2 of Unchained Monk.

My build was initially 15 con, 16 dex, 16 int, 7 str. Feats were Improved Unarmed, Point-Blank Shot, Weapon Finesse and Toughness (started at level 8 testing).

Right now we're debating whether to make Shocking Fist a weapon (lose the need for Improved Unarmed, etc)

Bardarok wrote:
Mike J wrote:

Having fooled with this quite a bit over the years, I can tell you that you have only two real choices:

1. Implement something that mimics the current system, like the automatic bonus progression in unchained - I use something similar that is home brewed. No big 6 items, but the PCs get the bonuses from somewhere else.

2. Rebalance everything, which means writing your own game (and every monster) from scratch. I don't recommend this.

Anything else will result in an unbalanced game that will eventually fall apart. The problem is that the power curve is rather steep and being a few +1's behind means rarely scoring a hit. The farther behind a PC falls, the worse it gets.

If your changes give the PCs the bonuses they need, you are all set. Otherwise, not so much...

So you think I should just incorporate the bonuses in such that for example a barbarian BAB would max out at 25, (still limiting to 4 attack though at lv. 6, 11, 16). Do you think I would need to add a damage bonus as well? The characters will find magic items with special qualities that deal increased damage.

It is basically what I did. I not only replaced + bonuses to weapons/armours (also natural armour)/Resistance with an integrated system, but I also replaced ability-boost items with more regular ability boosts. Same with Boots of Speed, which everyone begged for, now they can just 'haste' a number of rounds per day based on their level (we just call it Adrenaline Boost).

Those are the things every single player seems to want...

+Amulet of Natural Armour
Boots of Haste

So, nobody gets them in my game, and they get cool/unique magic items in lieu. Admittedly, to fix the values, we had to greatly reduce the amount of gear-value per level by a lot, and stretch the other stuff out widely, but all in all it turned out best. Just removing them (my first choice) was horrific at upper levels (though great if you do E6)

Tested the Electric Blast version this past weekend, and it needs a lot of work. :P

When compared to the Cyclone/Explosion equivalents, the infusions granted are very sub-par, and confusing with the "Kinetic Fist" wording, so we're going to basically start over from scratch on that one. Our goal will be an unarmed-monk type hybrid who surrounds his body in crackling energy and can do the "Tesla" effect.

Since it's racial (for a race that lacks any natural attacks), we're thinking of expanding the Kinetic Fist into something that can be used with Dexterity instead of Strength amd improved damage, and also grant the Improved Unarmed Combat feat when the homebrew Kinetic Fist is activated. (I think we'll call it Shocking Fist though :P)

Will post an update here when it's ready, though if anyone wants to give some input, that'd be great. ;)

We haven't tested Greater Invisibility, but it should be noted (it's in the pdf) that it was suppose to end with "if the Zephyr attackes with the Air Blast". There is a large redux in damage if you use the Air Blast in lieu of the Thunderstorm Blast. While true that I still have Empower for that Air Blast, those times when you wish to remain invisible are usually against a creature you want to pour the damage out on, or can see through invisibility...

That being said, we just changed the talents this week after our XMas game, so hven't tested it as written yet.

You can choose these talents any time after levels 5/11/19, since not everyone will meet those prerequisites at those levels.

Maybe easier to read in pdf: Zephyr Archetype (Sylph Racial - Kineticist)

I love it....

Admittedly, this is so poorly formatted that I'm likely the only person to read it, so if you want more input I would strongly suggest formatting it some. At the bottom of your edit area, you'll see a "How to format your text [Show]", you should use that to bold things, and otherwise format (including some blank lines between items).

The only negative thing about the class itself, that I can see right off, is that the saves are too good. There has to be a weak-spot on saves, which really seems like it'd be Willpower (since obviously they're very agile and healthy from all that dancing). Other than that, I could really "feel" this class, and the imagery it created in my head was fantastic! Very well thought out, very nicely designed!

We realized that we were giving up 4 infusions for what was basically a half of a feat for the Air Blast version. Now we give up 2 infusions for a single feat that applies 99% of the time, and the other 2 infusions to expand Telekinetic Invisibility to the equivalent of Greater Invisibility. Here is a cleaned up version of the Archetype now.

Zephyr wrote:

Zephyr (Sylph Racial Kineticist Archetype)

The sylph race has the strongest attunement possible with the element of air, being offsprings of the planar denizens. This connection allows them to more finely manipulate wind in a manner resembling the effects of a telekineticist.

Wind Focused (Ex): At 1st level, a zephyr must choose air as her primary element, and when expanding into another element, she must always choose air; however she is treated as having both aether and air as her primary element for selection of infusions and utility wild talents, and gains the basic wild talents of both elements. She may only gain a single air based kinetic blast at this time, and the other at 7th level. When she gains the air blast, it qualifies for any infusion that has the telekinetic blast as the associated blast. This alters the elemental focus, and elemental expansion class features.

Elemental Defense: At 2nd level Zephyrs gain the Zephyr Defense defense instead of the Enveloping Winds defense. This alters the Elemental Defense class feature.

Zephyr Defense
This works as the Enveloping Winds defense; however, as of 7th level, any burn you apply to the defense also grants half your level in temporary hit points as the Force Ward, without the initial bonus. You do not start with your level in temporary hit points, all temporary hit points granted come from burn. Otherwise, this works as the Force Ward defense.

Aerokinetic Talents (Ex): At 5th level she gains one of the following Aerokinetic Talents for which she qualifies for. If she does not qualify for any of the talents, she can gain the talent at a later level as soon as she does qualify for it. She gains a 2nd talent at 11th level, and the final talent at 19th level. This replaces the infusions gained at levels 3, 5, 11, 13 and 19.

Aerokinetic Talents wrote:

Aerial Stealth (Ex):
As you become one with the wind, you become as visible as the wind.
Prerequisites: Air blast, 5 ranks of Stealth.
While under the effect of Elemental Overflow, the Zephyr gains the benefits of the Signature Skill (General) feat with the chosen skill of Stealth. If the Elemental Overflow is suppressed, she does not gain any benefits of this feat.

Aerial Motion (Ex):
You are the wind, an unseen whirlwind tossing your enemies while remaining unseen.
Prerequisites: Aerial Stealth, Telekinetic Invisibility.
While under the influence of her Elemental Overflow, any use of Telekinetic Invisibility works as normal except that it doesn't end if the Zephyr attacks.

Tesla Burst (Su):
Being a conduit for electricity allows one to create a flashy and effective display of power.
Prerequisites: Electric blast, kinetic fist.
This is a level 3 form infusion that costs 2 burn, with both electric blast and thunderstorm blast as associated blasts. Anything within 5’ of you takes damage as per your Kinetic Fist wild talent, as does anything that ends its turn next to you before the beginning of your next turn.

Tesla Explosion (Su):
The zephyr releases the pent up energy within her, allowing it to flow outwards.
Prerequisite: Tesla Burst, extended range infusion.
She extends the range of her Tesla Burst to 10’, and adds +1 damage for every dice of damage caused. This is a level 5 form infusion that costs 3 burn.

Thunderstorm Finale (Su):
Nobody is more the master of the thunderstorm than those born into it.
Prerequisite: Level 19, thunderstorm blast.
When using the Thunderstorm composite blast, the zephyr has the option to convert all her blast’s die to d8’s instead of d6’s. This increases the composite blast cost to 3 burn instead of 2.

Haven't tested the Thunderstorm Finale, nor decided on a capstone ability yet... but I'm pretty comfortable with the current balance of everything else. :)

Pretty much, yes. It's a balance issue due to the merging of the 2 defenses. The loss of the infusions was a balancing factor against getting to spend burn once, and receiving 2 different benefits from it (each burn improves both Enveloping Winds and the Force Ward).

Admittedly, I've only started play-testing the electricity blast and it is definitely more powerful than the air blast benefits, so will likely have to make some mods to the "Tesla" stuff... Or improve the aerial sniping/motion a bit. :/

Some notes:

1) Limit the elements, let it state "except Aether or Void" in the list of acceptable elements.

2) You seem far more focused on mechanics than theme. There is a LOT of interest in dual-elements. My Zephyr Archetype being one such example. You spend a lot of effort merging the mechanics, but it comes across (at least to me) as an effort focused solely on that. When you go through Archetypes of different classes, theme comes first. That's admittedly almost impossible to do while keeping the expansion open to all elements. I ran into similar problems when I tried doing the exact same thing until I realized that the reason I was doing it was so I could create what I ended up making in the Zephyr class (Air/Aether).

Not saying you should scrap the project, rather stating that more theme needs to be brought into it...

3) 10th level defense is weaker than an actual dual-element defense (who can put burn in both defenses). Maybe let them both be active at 7th level, the level any other dual-element could get the 2nd elemental defense (Extra Wild Talent), and at 15th level, any burn spent applies to both (this makes it worth having lost Metakinesis Mastery).

4) Composite Mastery is over the top. 3 Wild Talents in total, and a boost to her attack/damage, -or- better simple blasts (and composite blasts) than non-composite experts in those simple blasts (which goes completely against the whole 'we are better at composite stuff' since they're now also better at non-composite stuff..., that and you should go to 2d6 after 1d12). I really think you should stick to just giving them the 1st option, and with only 2 Wild Talents at best (which is still way better than a regular composite mastery, not sure why they wouldn't just get the normal level 15 same-element)

Threeshades wrote:
Sphynx wrote:
As a Sylph, you can get higher stealth ranks than anyone.
Except for every small sized race ever. Especially halflings who get the +4 size bonus and +2 racial bonus, and goblins, who get +4 size and +4 racial and also have a +4 to dex so get 1 more point from that. Or if you want to retain the intelligence bonus for casting, ratfolk with the skulk trait or Wayangs: also +4 size, +2 racial

Shush, there aren't enough Sylphs around... :/ Besides, who wants to be "small"?!? :P

I'd recommend Sylph Wizard from the Teleportation School so you can begin teleporting right away...

As a Sylph, you can get higher stealth ranks than anyone. You can focus on illusion spells if you want since the school ability will cover all your teleportation needs. Take the Trapfinder trait if your GM allows (giving you the ability to disarm magic traps), you'll be better than most rogues at sneaking and of course, teleporting.

Just an FYI though, your damage output will be super-low. You're building on theme, not power.

I've been thinking on this, and there seems to be a few inherent problems with the archetype.

For one, fewer hit-dice, higher Intelligence (and thus lower constitution) yet still using Burn...

Example, 3rd level character with an 18 Int, 14 Con (the most likely point spread)...

He'll have 6 + 4 + 4 from Hitdice, +2, +2, +2 from Con Bonus, and maybe +3 from favored class for 23HP.

His max burn is 7 (21HP of 23HP) and you let the max burn increase repeatedly which will never be needed... you'd probably be better off just saying there is no limit to the amount of burn you can accept. As is, that not only makes a 14 Con the absolute minimum he can do, but 18 the absolute highest Int he'll want to start with. :P

I guess the real question is, what's the purpose of the archetype? I don't mean that in a demeaning manner, I mean it as a literal question. Is your goal simply to have more meta techniques and a non-Con based burn system?

I think you'd be better off, if I may, just adding available techniques, tailor-edited for the kinetic blast. Ie: At 5th level you can choose to have X, Y or Empower Meta Technique by accepting 1 point of burn, but may only use 1 of these meta techniques at a time. Don't make it attached to an archetype, just as an option (sort of the way Advanced Player's Guide just added more rage powers for barbarians)

For the non-Con, I'd have to understand why you'd want that. My experience with the Sylph Archetypes (a -2 Con race, +2 Int race) was that Con was always as good as Int regardless of the system I conjured up, simply because of Elemental Overflow. The only way to really make it work is to replace Burn with some sort of mental-fatique (fatigued for a number of rounds double the burn cost? like Rage?) Otherwise, it's just not sensible to switch to an Int based system. :/

Honestly, there's just no way a VMC should get either an infusion or utility talent greater than level 1. Look through the VMCs, not a single class ever gives out spells, which is what this would be equivalent to. I think it's already over generous to allow a level 1 in these things.

Bonus to the class skills, such as the skilled kineticist utility, would be ok
The defense of the element would be ok (no burn, level - X)
Blasts without the benefit of burn would be ok (+1 kin level at every 4th level)
The basic utility wild talent would be ok
And -maybe- a single infusion or utility talent of 1st level, only because there's really nothing else to fit into that 5th feat slot.

Absolutely no way any talent past level 1 should be in the VMC. To do more than that would be to create a hybrid class insteadl. These are feat level powers...

Way too much... Consider making a hybrid class instead? Probably with spells in place of utility wild talents with 6th level spell progression...

Because our Con is just as good thanks to Overflow, so it minimizes how much needs to be rewritten.

Chargen you end up with either
15 Con or 18 Int and it progresses like this:
16 Con or 19 Int at 4th level (Int ahead for 5 levels)
18 Con or 19 Int at 6th level (they're equal)
19 Con or 20 Int at 8th level (Int ahead for 3 levels)
21 Con or 20 Int at 11th level (They're equal)
22 Con or 21 Int at 12th level (Con stays ahead for the rest of the advancement).

Admittedly, a Headband(Int)+Belt(Dex) is cheaper than a Belt(Con,Dex), but otherwise it just isn't a big enough factor to go adding mechanics which could possibly be exploited...

I've been playing this archetype 4 or 5 sessions now, and it's really working out nicely. I honestly think it's the best Archetype I've ever made. The defense was a bit too much at 1st, but we rewrote it and now it's perfect. Unless Paizo makes their own racial version of the class for Sylphs, I doubt I ever play anything else. Even created a .user file for HeroLab for the Archetype (if anyone happens to want a copy).

Admittedly, I went with the Air version (Tossing people with my Air Blast more often than I damage with a Thunderbolt Composite Blast), just so I can stay hidden with my Sniping bonuses, so can't say I've tested the electric blast version of the archetype...

QuidEst wrote:

Ooh, I forgot about the basic utility wild talent. That's exactly right for third level.

That's actually not true. A feat at 3rd level would be once-per-day. :P

Not saying it shouldn't be a basic utility at that level, it probably should, but it is more powerful than any feat. :P

That being said, his goal was obvuiously a focus on the kinetic blast for his VMC, and since a 1d6+1 blast is roughly equal (feat-wise) to the basic utility, that should come first.

Still, based on previous VMCs, I'm betting that class skills gets the level-3 slot. :P

It is overall way too powerful for a VMC. Each level should be roughly equal to gaining a single feat. Look at Wizard, no spells til 11th level when they gain their first Cantrip, and the only spell they ever learn.

Honestly, they would likely not even get the Kinetic Blast. And if they did... Max damage would be much much much lower (making it practically worthless)

When they come out with a VMC it will likely look like this...

3rd level: Choose an element and get the class skills of that element.

7th level: Kinetic blast as 1st level Kineticist.

11th level: Basic utility wild talent of your element, Kinetic Blast as 3rd level

15th level: Kinetic Blast as 5th level, one utility wild talent of your element (You have no burn, so don't get a talent requiring burn)

19th level: Kinetic Blast as 7th level, a level 1 infusion, ignore any burn requirements for that infusion.

You're replacing 5 feats, not a portion of your own class... What you get will be roughly equal to 5 feats.

The problem with the Diabolist is that you lose your level progression, which is very important as a Kineticist. (That, and I'm not sure that the Kinetic Blast counts as a 'spell').

You really want to find a way to do this without exiting the class for 2 levels. If you're not looking for houserules (which it seems you're not), I'd still recommend the void/fire combo. :/

You are correct, that's what I meant. Shouldn't post before morning caffeine. :/ I was basically trying to say that -1/+3 vs -1/+2.

nighttree wrote:

I'm toying with the idea of a fire/keneticist for the Hell's Wrath AP

But I'm flavoring it as a wielder of Hellfire....

To there any means (feat etc) that would allow me to turn half the damage to unholy ?

Or any means to get past immunity to an element ?

Your questions make it seem like you're looking for advice instead of a houseruling.

Unholy: No, there is no way to turn half the damage to unholy.

Immunity: The closest you'll get is Searing Flame.

The closest you'll get is the composite blast of fire/void (negative admixture) (as Dragonchess Player stated already), which will mix well with Searing Flame.

Houserule suggestion: Allow Burning Infusion to work with Negative Admixture. Then you get to stack Searing Flame along with the burning damage.

Well, to be fair, the Power Attack feat is only one of the best feats in the game because it lets you add 50%to your strength (and equivalent) bonus for 2-handedness. That makes Piranha Strike noticably weaker than Power Strike. Admittedly, it's still an amazing feat, particularly if you're dependent on both Weapon Finesse and Agile. :P

I have a player suggesting the following. I'm considering allowing it, but thought I'd get some input from the community first.

Agile Fist: At 1st level, an unarmed monk is allowed to use his Dexterity bonus in place of his Strength bonus for both attack bonus and damage bonus, when using Flurry of Attacks. This replaces Stunning Fist.

My concern is that I don't want Strength to be a 'dump' stat for a Monk, so would personally like a way of including a strength requisite into the rules. Then again, one could just take Weapon Finesse and an Agile Amulet of the Fists and get these benefits anyhows. So I can't tell if it's underpowered, or overpowered, or if I should even be concerned about someone with a potential Strength as low as 5 doing this level of damage in melee... :/

Help please?

Saldiven wrote:

"A cohort is generally considered a player-controlled companion, and therefore you get to decide how the cohort advances. The GM might step in if you make choices that are inappropriate for the cohort, use the cohort as a mechanism for pushing the boundaries of the game rules, or treat the cohort unfairly. A cohort is a loyal companion and ally to you, and expects you to treat him fairly, generously, without aloofness or cruelty, and without devoting too much attention to other minions such as familiars or animal companions. The cohort's attitude toward you is generally helpful (as if using the Diplomacy skill); he complies with most of your requests without any sort of skill check, except for requests that are against his nature or put him in serious peril."

The GM is final arbiter of anything the Cohort does.

The cohort is "generally helpful," he is not an unfettered extension of the player's wishes, especially if those wishes "put him in serious peril." (Such as having him engage in combat against something 6+ CR inappropriate for him, for example.)

The GM is the final arbiter of everything everyone does.


The 'rules' state: A cohort is generally considered a player-controlled companion.

You state: The cohort is described specifically as being NPCs. NPCs are controlled by the GM. Them's the rules.

I state: No, them's not the rules

Saldiven wrote:

Their rules at no time describe them as being NPCs.

Under the Leadership feat, the cohort is described specifically as being NPCs. NPCs are controlled by the GM.

Them's the rules.

No, them's not the rules

alexd1976 wrote:

Player issues command that doesn't make sense/leads to NPC suicide? GM has every right to step in and say no.

Commonly, Leadership is straight up banned, so allowing it is usually seen as a courtesy.

That's true of PCs as well. Players never even have 'total' control of their characters. But generally speaking, I don't see why that would be a problem. Our Pack Lord has been controlling her animals for years. Our Bard controlled the previous Fighter/Bodyguard I'd made for him for years.

Not sure why people would ban leadership. One of my favorite aspects of AD&D was building a keep and gaining followers. It's a good part of the game, always has been.

Heh, no, it's a 20-point build, and since his last minion turned into a PC, I kinda like the idea that it could happen again (say if a PC dies or another guest appears), so keeping the 20-point build is surely a thing I wouldn't want changed.

Anyhows, the player doesn't even own a book as far as I know, and plays a non-combatant bard/illusionist so he doesn't have to learn the mechanics. Him being made to build the character was as much an effort to get him a bit more interested in the mechanics as anything else. The chances he'll abuse it is nil, I just wanted to make sure I didn't leave a loop-hole because although that player is mechanic-weak, there are a couple of mechanic-savvy players in the group. More worried about them wanting to hang out for the benefits, and if they do, that it's not too much.

Kinda looks like they could get a slight boost to AC (the actual Paladin PC already has a heavy shield as a sword-n-board), but not enough to worry too much on. And of course, a lot more healing in the group (which isn't a bad thing I suppose). I had just expected a fighter with the bodyguard feat and a tower shield. so needed to double-check that this isn't something I might regret.

Ok, I sent the minion back with a +1 agile breastplate (no adamantine), +2 living steel tower shield, and belt of dexterity in place of belt of perfection with an explanation. That reduced his AC down to 32 (26).

Again, thanks, should be good now.

Oh, and the deflection bonus I believe is the Charisma bonus against opponents he invokes Bastion of Good against. I tell him to activate all abilities in HeroLab so I can see him at his "best".

Ah, good to know on the resources, that definitely tones things down a few notches... did seem a bit much. :)

Thanks all.

Our level 12 Bard has the Leadership feat, and I let him build his own minion because his last one turned into a PC (one-shot guest keeps returning :P)

He has almost no offense really, the minion that is, but his defense is pretty formidable. Admittedly, he was built as a 'bodyguard' for the Bard, who is very non-combatant, which is ok... but as a Paladin/Sacred Shield, his 'defense' is contagious to the rest of the party.

Question being, should I allow as-is, or should I have him make changes? I'm in no way wanting to use this as a chance to mess with him... I'm sure he has no intention of abusing it, I just don't want to walk into something I'm not ready for...


Human paladin (warrior of the holy light, sacred shield) 10
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +0
Aura courage (10 ft.), resolve (10 ft.), power of light
AC 37, touch 19, flat-footed 34 (+10 armor, +6 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +8 shield)
hp 104 (10d10+40)
Fort +15, Ref +11, Will +12
DR 2/—; Immune charm, disease, fear
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee spiked gauntlet +11/+6 (1d4+3)
Paladin Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +14)
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +10; CMB +13; CMD 33
Feats Bodyguard, Combat Patrol, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Tower Shield Proficiency
Skills Diplomacy +13, Handle Animal +13, Heal +6, Knowledge (nobility) +6, Ride +0, Sense Motive +9
Languages Common
SQ bastion of good, divine bond, holy shield, lay on hands 11/day (5d6), living steel, mercies (diseased, poisoned, sickened)
Other Gear +4 benevolent adamantine agile breastplate, +4 living steel tower shield , spiked gauntlet, belt of physical perfection +2 , cloak of resistance +1 , heavy horse (combat trained)

Thanks for any advise. :)

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