SoulGambit0's page

If only Vital Strike didn't come after Haste does.

Lets assume a generic, Greatsword-wielding Fighter. 18 STR, Level 6, Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Gloves of Dueling, Masterwork Greatsword, Power Attack.

Power Attacking fighter hits on 6's, IIRC and deals an average of 24 damage. That's (0.75+0.5)*24*1.1 or 33 average damage. Vital Strike deals an average of 24. At -5 DR, a full attack is still better by 0.55 average damage.

If you have Haste up, which you should at that level, then full-attacking is ahead of Vital Strike by 10 DPR against 10 DR enemies at level 6.

Improved Vital Strike comes in at 11. Taking Improved Vital Strike implies you aren't taking Dazing Assault. That is almost never a good idea if you're a build that can use it effectively.

Some things for you to consider...
- Your coloring scheme is confusing. Why is there one color, then two different colors for Bomber/Hyde? I feel like the option should be labeled in black... you're encouraging us to ignore that and look at the color based on Hyde/Bomber status anyways, right? If not, that's the impression I am getting.

Races
- Gnomes should be blue if your group allows crafting. They can get Weapon Proficiency (Everything) which opens a whole world of shenanigans. The Saboteur is also fantastic.

- Elves are rated a bit highly IMO, although I can understand the desire for the free weapon proficiency. Any time I try to, mechanically, select an Elf I always go, "Why are you not an Ork or a Halfling?"

- Half-Orc should be Blue for bombers entirely for the alternate racial feature. Its disgusting. Some of their alternate racial features are also particularly nice, and open some things up.

- Not going over featured/uncommon races because I can't do them off the top of my head. Only thing I recall Tieflings arguably being the best of the best bombers, and your guide reflects that.

Traits
- I feel like your Trait section gives way too much information organized poorly. Your choice to use spoiler tags is particularly egregious here. I feel like you could tell us generally what to look for and then point out notable exceptions / choices. This is not the place to waste wordcount on Red/Orange choices, or even Green choices unless you think its a mistake someone will make. A link to the dedicated Trait guide may also be prudent and save you space.

- Defensive Strategist isn't as good as I think you think it is. Flat-Footed =/= denied dexterity bonus to AC. Its still good, mind you, but you may want to give it another look before keeping it purple.

Feats
- Your Feat section isn't as bad as your trait section, but you give a lot of information people don't need. A general section telling you what you are looking for in feats and what to stay away from can save you a lot of space. You don't need to go over every bad option, just every good one and some really bad options.

- Extra Discovery is not purple? I stare at every feat, regardless of what build the Alchemist is and go, "Why are you not Extra Discovery?" Now, there are times when I can come up with a good answer to that question, but the fact that it is the measure by which every other choice is made means that its a solid Purple / Blue for Bomber/Hyde.

- Kirin style is a perfect example of a bad choice you should cover, because it looks so good on paper. In practice, you spend too many swift actions setting it up. You could have spent those swift actions on Arcane Strike or something instead.

Extracts
- Your Extract List suffers from the same issue I see from similar lists judging Spells... So I can't really hold it against you. You really use a different measure in different situations. When I'm looking at a spell list, I want to know what I should get immediately and spend my precious combat action on, what I should prioritize to use during non-combat time? How does that change as I level? Beyond that I want to know what situations situational Extracts are useful in. As a book-based caster, its hard to really have a red spell as well.

- Alchemical Allocation deserves its own section.

- Vomit Swarm is disgusting against (and only against) clever GMs. Its particularly useful if you stealth and control the engagement. Thing is an amazing Kobold-Tunnel-Clearer.

- Your ratings are sometimes at odds with your description. For instance, blistering invective. This is confusing to a new person.

- Touch Injection is also disgusting, for reasons people have already said and so many more. Not only does it let you mass-apply buffs but some infusions have rather amusing offensive-possibilities.

- The more I read your extract section the more I realize I'm not getting the information I want, or would hypothetically want as a new person. There are too few Blues. I can't even begin to imagine what an optimal Extract spread is, going entirely from your list, because apparently every thing sucks. Alchemical Allocation in every slot ever?

- Communal Spells exist as Extracts just so the Alchemist can learn them from a spellbook, not because they in any way bypass the rules for infusions or extracts. This was stated by a developer or something a while back, but I'm too lazy to go digging for the quote.

- You keep referencing types of hydes, et cetera at this point but you haven't explained what, exactly, they are. I can infer thanks to prior knowledge, but a new player would not be able to.

- Magic Jar should be Purple, and then stricken from existence because it breaks the game.

- Over all, relate Extracts to other Extracts of the same level. An option is blue if its the only good option, et cetera.

Archetypes
- Archetypes feel somehow unfocused, but I can't put my finger on it.

- Crypt Breaker should be higher than Red. Not only does it give trapfinding, which may be amazing depending on party composition, but their bombs deal acid damage, which is a less common resistance. The situational bonus damage may or may not be fantastic depending on your campaign. The only reason I wouldn't say blue is because its competing with Grenadier.

- You really love Brew Potion too much.

- Alchemical Weapon deserves its own section. There are not words to describe how disgusting this ability can get, particularly at level 6+.

- Preservationist should be Blue. Summoning is and will always be the strongest choice.

- Briar Bombs wins combat at lower levels. Hyde will want to look elsewhere, however. That said, its a tad party-contextual.

- Gnome Saboteur should be at least green, if not blue.

Items
- Why are you listing every conceivable weapon? Like... Why? We really only need to know about the good ones.

- You aren't advocating proper use of firearms, launching crossbows, syringe spears (which are awesome, by the way), et cetera. Namely, you're advocating actually reloading the buggers in combat. Don't. Fire and forget.

- Shotguns are amazing on a Grenadier. It turns your alchemist fire, tanglefoot bag, whatever into cone-based AoE.

- Use Burst Jars to get your Int*2 to damage using a hybridization funnel.

- Re: Ghast Retch Flask. I'm pretty sure that rules for stacking sickening don't actually exist. There's a single mention of it in an example used by the Monk.

- Shard Gels are splash weapons.

- Unstable Accelerant really shouldn't be purple. Its rarely worth the GP at any level where its damage matters, especially en-masse.

- Fungel Stun Vial should really be blue. It remains relevant into your teens, and Stun is a no-joke condition.

- There are more good uses for alchemical items for you to find.

Magic Items
- +1 Bane Arrows are a common thing, and awesome.

- I believe Conductive Stacks with Explosive Missile, but I may be wrong. Explosive Missile + Conductive + Coated Acid Flask remain a viable source of damage into your teens, at least.

- Designating, notably, does not stack with Pheremone arrows.

- Endless Ammunition is useful in the hedge case where you are using a Double Crossbow late-game.

I swear every time I leave one of these crop up. tl;dr: Monks are awesome, but you have to think to do it. This means that, yes, you need to understand the system and work for your power. If your allies make buffs available, then Monks are a force-multiplier the likes you'll never see again. If they don't make buffs available... you have to try harder, but its doable.

Basically this will devolve into moving goal-posts from both sides because no one has a hard-definition of what would make them happy. That is, they have solutions in a desperate and angry search of a problem.

If Monks require system mastery, your response should be to master the system, not to be lazy. Some people think having to work is a problem, I think its a feature. I've become a better player in regards to all of my classes because I've played Monks and I propose that the same thing will happen to you, if you let it.

That said, I will concede that Monks do have an accessibility problem in regards to new players. Their choices aren't intuitive like they are for a Fighter. I would not say this is because you have to search for every bonus, etc etc. I'd compare this to playing a Wizard and learning what your spells can do, honestly.

@Lormyr: Good catches on some of that stuff, I learned a thing or two.

Masterwork Quarterstaff
Masterwork Meteor Hammer
Some Nets
Some Shuriken
Weapon Blanches for those shuriken
Assorted Alchemical Items
Caltrops
Pearl of Power Level 1 -OR- Wand(s) of Mage Armor
Potions of Shillelagh
Potions of Enlarge Person
Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone in a Pathfinder
Menacing Cestus
Amulet of Mighty Fists appropriate to my build
Belt of +Strength -> Belt of Physical Perfection
Headband of Wisdom
Greater Hat of Disguise
Cloak of Resistance
Eversmoking Bottle + Goz Mask (Not if your using the hat, above)
Haste Boots
Masterwork 7-Branched Sword

O_o Garbage in? Little hostile, ne? The Ioun Stone was a good catch by Gren, but the rest of the data is good and double checked. I even check it again (with the Ioun Stone revelation) below for your benefit, and explain each step. I actually never have Bards in my games so I didn't realize IC and the Ioun were incomparable.

I'm almost positive I know what you didn't read, and I'd suggest being more thorough before you criticize.

DMed for around five, played alongside three, played myself one. None were built the way your fighter is, none had any real problems from lack of mobility (at least none that weren't shared by everyone). However, I have played a fair few monks, and all the monsters you name pose problems for monks too.

Shared by everyone but the Monk, presumably. Bypassing normal problems is an advantage.

Looking at your list, I notice a number of other common factors that make the monk just as vulnerable as the fighter.

• The all have high CMDs - your monk with his low dexterity isn't avoiding AoO's from tumbling very often.
  
• Their attack chances are such that a monk - with or without mobility - is still likely to get hit.
  
• Their CMBs are high enough that the monk is almost as vulnerable as the fighter.

I will grant you the monk has better chances of getting through with no AoO's, but better != good in the same way 25% is better than 15% but still a long way short of 100%. On the flip side, the fighter has a number of options the monk doesn't have:

• A variety of reach weapons, should such foes pose constant problems any sensible fighter will tool up appropriately.
  
• Ranged weapons are options every fighter should carry, along with a handful of bane arrows for common foes. Sadly, monks got no love in this department.
  
• Great AC. While monks can have a fantastic AC, fighters can usually beat it.
  
• Fighters can pump CMD too - such as with their favoured class bonus.

Truth is, the best defence against being grabbed is always a ring of freedom of movement. The best defence against getting hit, AoOs or not, is either pump your AC or keep your distance.

Regarding challenges:

• I never mentioned Acrobatics, nor did I factor it in.
  
• With the Barkskin SLA and/or spending Ki the Monk has fantastic AC for this level. You pop the Ki for the +AC against big bads who full attack, lowering your DPR, but increasing your defense more than a little bit. Monks have that adaptability.
  
• The fighter is being hit on a 4. The Monk is being hit on an 11 without Ki, 13 with Ki. That is a difference between a 15% chance of success and up to 60%. That's a fantastic difference, and I consider a 60% chance of success good.

  Note that if the Fighter Charges to get in that beginning attack, there isn't even a comparison. Most monsters hit on a 2, and the Fighter can't stand up. I presume the Fighter is smart enough to double move, however.

  Regarding Fighter Advantages:

• None of which have a good crit range, benefit from Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or Imprived Critical. The Fighter is taking a massive DPR hit for this. How many reach heavy blades are there, anyways? If he loses Weapon Training too then well... good luck.
  
• Bane Shuriken cost no more than Bane Arrows. Your supporting dumping DEX to 10, which means the Fighter's ranged attack will be subpar at best. Unless the Fighter sacrifices a lot to switch hit in terms of feats, the DPR is negligible.
  
• Not at level 11. That's true at low levels, but by level 11 the Monk AC matches or surpasses anything short of a Shield or heavily Dex-Based fighter. This is, again, why the Monk's primary issue is one of scaling.
  
• So you admit to needing a Mobility-Equivalent option.

Actually. I'd like to get the personal involvement aspect of this out of the way. There's a monk that you are playing now that you complain about constantly. Would you mind posting its build? I'd like to see what yo consider the norm. (My norm is Maneuver Masters, which are useless to this discussion because everyone agrees they are fantastic).

@Lorekeeper: I've one unbuffed comparisons as well. And, again, am doing this to point out to people who want to make changes that buffs have a MASSIVE impact on Monk DPR, moreso than any other class. That said, I think it's well-established that Monks do fantastic against enemies with class levels, so I haven't bothered with that comparison.

If you're talking about how a Good GM might expand on encounters I would agree with you. However, a good GM takes his/her PC's abilities into consideration when designing those encounters anyways, and we open up the argument of, "Optimization and character ability is an illusion anyways because the GM builds the encounters around the PCs." I really, really want to stay away from that area by focusing on what the rules expect.

@Everyone: I think the wrong attitude is developing here, especially towards me. No, I don't mean "omg you hurt my feelings," I mean, "wait, I think these people think I'm trying to attack them and are retaliating." No... I'm participating in the design process as I have been trained to do it.

When you are trying to identify a problem and propose a solution, you take each step of the process and act like a scientist trying to propose a theorem. That is, you try to disprove it, not prove it. No matter where your personal experience and bias lies, you need to passionately seek the situations and interpretations that make your idea wrong. Then you submit it to other people so they can do the same thing.

People are proposing to give the Monk +To-Hit. There are situations, some common, where that buffs the monk entirely too much. That means your design needs to take these situations into account and adjust. If you are trying desperately to prove you are correct or less wrong, you've already lost, from a design process point of view.

At the end of the day, do you really, really want a fix that requires, "It works. As long as the players don't...?" If you're satisfied with that mediocrity, I'll step out and not bother you. But I think you guys are capable of designing something great, so I'm pushing you.

So design something great.

Zilar: Menacing specifically states it need not be used.

RE: The Tower
Levels 1-5 would be a great start, Ashiel! That said, Ilja brings up a really good point. Anyone have any thoughts regarding that? Are APs made similarly enough to crop out encounter optimization? Can we do the tower without spoiling those APs?

I haven't played very many APs, so I wouldn't know.

I powergame as well, although I don't really do PFS. I don't really do organized play well (I'm thinking of joining PFS) because I get through powergaming and making interesting stories by building a rapport with the GM and other players. When I join a new campaign (existing or from scratch), I let the GM know of my tendencies, I remain open to altering the character if necessary, and most of all I make sure the GM is fully informed of everything I want to be able to do well with my character.

I've never had a problem with my powergaming, and only very rarely have others taken offense. The key, I feel, is communication. As logn as the GM knows what you can do and what you want to do (flashes of insight/genius aside), stories can be built around that. Problems can be notified in advance. Soemtimes, there are surprises (I had one when I played a Binder for the first time), but at those moments you have to suck it up and change your character.

Unfortunately, organized play strips away this communication. The GM becomes a glorified, reactive computer. That, I feel, is the problem.

@Dabbler: Consider this wording instead:

It allows for more fluid multiclassing.

@Jupp: As opposed to the +20/+20, with some points left over, that Ilja's system allows? I fail to see the discrepancy. The ability to switch your bonus also complicates matters. How does this work with prerequisites? It's really better if the point-buy system is never looked at after creation.

Ilja's system is good in concept, but its execution is inelegant. That doesn't mean its unworkable, or even that it's not worth working on, but invoking the point by system is clunky at best.

This is quite possibly the best formatting I've ever seen for a guide (especially your Paladin guide). It also solves the issue of tackling the sheer amount of information that Pathfinder has at this point. The information is well presented and concise. Good job, and thanks for your work.

SoulGambit0 wrote:

Premise 1: A Monk treats their unarmed strike as a manufactured and/or natural weapon, as is convenient for them, for the purposes of being enhanced or improved by spells or effects.
Premise 2: The words "enhance" and "improve" have no in-game meaning beyond what is given in common English language.
Premise 3: Enhance means "to raise to a higher degree; intensify; magnify:" or "to raise the value or price of:"
Premise 4: Improve means, "to advance or make progress in what is desirable" or "to make useful additions or amendments".
Premise 5: The Monk's ability does not limit its scope--that is, it does not specify that the spell must directly target the unarmed strike, only that it must in some way be enhanced or improved.
Premise 6: Haste is a spell or effect.

So far so good.

Quote:

Premise 7: Haste makes progress in what is desirable re: unarmed strike, makes a useful addition, and otherwise increases the value of the Monk's unarmed strike.

*buzzer* Oops, there you go again. Haste does not enhance or improve a weapon. Not even by your definitions.

Saying you are correct without supplying evidence or precedence does not make you correct, even if you add funny sound effects beforehand. There is a mental "value" associated with the action "using unarmed strike during a Full Attack." The spell haste increases the value and effectiveness of selecting that option. I'm also not entirely sure how you can state that an extra attack isn't a "useful addition." Therefore, it is making progress towards what the Monk player feels is desirable.

You also agreed with premise 5, which is actually the key premise. I'm afraid you are wrong as long as Premise 5 is upheld and a connection, no matter how tenuous, can be made between a spell or effect and promoting what the Monk player feels is desirable, then the Monk's unarmed strike is a manufactured or natural weapon for purposes of it.

If you want to get even more pedantic, you can get to the conclusion another way.
Premise 1-6: Same as above.
Premise 7: A "Spell" means the entire entity of the spell entry. This must be the case because it is the only definition of "spell" given.
Premise 8: At least one part of the spell offers a concrete bonus to unarmed strike: to-hit rolls.
Premise 9: Nothing supports unarmed strike only counting for "part" of a spell or effect. It's an all or nothing affair.
Premise 10: Anything that grants an attack form a bonus on to-hit rolls improves it.

THEREFORE: Haste improves unarmed strike.

the following 10 commonly recurring topics need to be banned on at least a temporary basis

1. monk bashing threads of any kind

2. martial vs. caster disparity threads of any kind

3. antagonize is broken threads

4. synthesist is overpowered threads

5. alignment threads of any kind

6. guns and gunpowder hate threads

7. oriental hate threads

8. threads pertaining to how melee combatants can't do anything to fight ranged or flying foes

9. threads complaining about entitled players or adversarial DMs

10. threads complaining about the existence of dervish dance or agile weapons

I suddenly have an urge to find a way to make a thread about all ten of these things at once. Maybe about how the Monk sucks because it puts a "Lawful" constraint that really puts an undue straightjacket on eastern religions/traditions, highlighting how frankenstinian the mesh-up between eastern and western fiction really is. That mesh up, of course, lead to getting guns in my medieval fantasy spreading the proverbial mayo even thinner. Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad if the Monk was good, but in a game that allows such overpowered things like the Synthesis and other Spellcasters, how can any melee combatant keep up? The monk being sub-par for that by being so MAD (I mean, even other Finesse Fighters get Dervish Dance, I mean why are they allowed that kind of BS while a Monk has to spend on three stats?). I'd say that the Monk's Acrobatics an Speed let them actually do something in a fight against ranged or flying foes (unlike basically every other melee-er), but that implies the Monk can do anything but twiddle their thumbs dramatically. I guess you could say that the Monk could just focus on Dex/Wis anyways and be a tank but what are they suppossed to do, buy Antagonize? So the only way they can be relevant is to rely on a feat that we all know is OP and BS. imHo, all these problems are just because of the secret Paizo conspiracy to cater to players that just feel so illogically entitled to play whatever nonsensical thing they want to. YOu have no idea how often I have to shoot them down. It's created an environment where my GM constantly shoots down all my ideas that are, of course, good and perfect in every way and totally brilliant.

But, that's a troll urge, so I shall not make another thread containing all 10 of those points.

There's a 3.5 feat that lets you use STR for throwing to-hit, IIRC. Ask your GM if it's usable, assuming you are absolutely sold on Shuriken.

Also, remember. As a Flowing Monk you are a tank in the MMO sense. You draw aggro and punish people for attacking, so you can get away with dealing less damage.

I've been trying to build something with the Archon style, but I digress.

Another option is to go the Weapon Finesse rout and keep your STR to like, 12.

You will also want Fury's Fall if you're a trip-focused build, ideally around level 5.

That said, you are better off throwing nets or tanglefoot bags or moving + trip in almost every instance.

So! Apparently the Alchemist is arcane for purposes of the Samsaran's ability to add spells to the spell list. I'm curious as to what the gems are for this option. So far I have...

Locate Object (Sorc/Wiz 2)
Locate Creature (Sorc/Wiz 3)
Enter Image (Sorc/Wiz 3)
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (Sorc/Wiz 3)
Scrying (Sorc/Wiz 4)
Detect Scrying (Sorc/Wiz 4)
Lesser Astral Projection (Sorc / Wis 5)
Ancestral Communion (Bard 2)
Glibness (Bard 3)
Ancestral Gift (Bard 4)
Fool's Forbiddance (Bard 6)
(Greater) Bladed Dash (Magus 2 or 5)
Spit Venom (Witch 3)
Reincarnation (Witch 5)
Swarm Skin (Witch 6)
Aspect of the Wolf (Witch via Moon 5)
Divine Power (Witch via Strength 4)
Divine Favor (Witch via Strength 1)

Collective Monk Rewrite Work
Core Class Rewrite
Ki Powers
Enlightenments
Feats and Errata

I mentioned in a previous thread that in an ideal world the monk would be rewritten to have a clear focus and involve Ki POwers for, if nothing else, thematic consistency with the other classes. I also mentioned that it would take too much time to do.

Then I got a job that allows me to have a whole lot of free time exclusively to type. So, I've been doing this piece by piece for a little less than a week.

I don't have much time right now but in future posts I'll talk about design goals and why I did some things. Note that tweaking Style Feets is work for another day, although this stuff should work with almost all of the styles.

So, I've been mulling over DR, among other things. An Oil of Bless Weapon is only 50gp and lasts a minute, and takes care of almost all the monk's DR problems. An expensive option, but a necessity if the party doesn't have a cleric / paladin willing to help the monk bypass DR (as an aside, if they have only one of such spell, casting it on the Monk is actually the best choice). At higher levels, if one is going demon hunting, I could see a Cleric/Paladins spell slots of the appropriate level filled with that spell, on top of everyone having a potion or two just in case.

Re: The Net Thing. Huh, and RAW, by the wording, getting a larger net doesn't help. Go figure, I stand corrected, and have never caught that. I'd recommend working with your team to get a medium character to throw a net in that case, or throw a tanglefoot bag. Usually I've just bought a bigger net when that became an issue and no one ever pointed it out. >_<

Another build that lulz at DR. May be playing a Tetori soonish and have been trying out builds.

Something for that defense guy: Look at Archon Stance, especially in combination with Crane/Snake Style and Paired Opportunist. Stand near the party Rogue, defend him with your swift action, and suddenly the enemy has a whole lot of decisions to make.

On that note, Paired Opportunist might be a wellspring of untapped potential, in the right party. I'm mulling it over.

Oh, here's another example of how an optimized monk can contribute to the party vs a giant scary DR 10/good demon.

Remember: Allies are power. Also, the more I work on monks the more I become convinced that 13 Int is worth it. Greater Trip is just phenominal. Then again, maybe instead of 13 Int one could go Vicious Stomp + Paired Opportunist.

Add Menacing on the list of great stuff to add to AoMF, of a Cestus.

For Traits, "Bred for War" and "Equality for All" are particularly excellent for a Maneuver-Focused character.

@Dabbler: Thresholds work in a party setting too, it's just that the DPR becomes "Party DPR." The thresholds are also the same because then it becomes a measure of "Man-Turns" (think Man-Hours, not trying to be sexist here), and the inbetween numbers matter more because it allows your other party members to be slightly below the threshold.

You also have to factor in opening turn / the approach. Realistically, and this is why I'm not a -huge- fan of offensive fighting styles, the Monk wants to assess whether throwing a net or tripping as an opening thing is better: then either drop / throw a net, then move into flanking position while drawing his next supplemental weapon of choice, and then trip if that was the choice. Swift action should be used to pop a Ki for +4 AC so you survive the next turn. The party Rogue moves up and and attacks with flanking against the enemy with lower AC.

@All

"But what does a Monk do against monsters?!"

I must admit, most of my games are predominently against enemies with class levels, which is where the Monk excels. If your GM is pro having a small number of really big monsters rather than having enemies with class levels well... That requires a different kind of Monk, and the core Monk is going to have to fight an uphill battle. There are certain conversations that I feel need to have happen before the start of the game, one of them being what type of game the GM tries to run, which should in turn clue you in on what type of enemies you'll be facing. If you still aren't sure, flat-out ask your GM, "Do you think I'd be happier with a character who excels at taking out other humanoids with class levels or a character who excels more against monsters?" Most GMs, in my experience, will answer that question.

Lets start taking a look at some of the unique challenges that Monsters pose, and what some of the Monk answers are.

Damage Reduction
Damage Reduction wrecks havoc with anyone's damage, but especially those who (like the Monk) rely on a lot of attacks per turn. If you're facing monsters, expect damage reduction of some kind.
Answers:

- Be a Martial Artist. I'm not fond of the archetype, but I can't deny its usefulness against creatures with Damage Reduction.

- Spells. Align Weapon and Bless Weapon can help bypass alignment-based Damage Reduction. If you're going into an area you know is infested with an enemy with a particular type of damage reduction, make sure your divine casters stock up.

- Masterwork Weapons. Remember, an optimized Monk only uses his fists if its the most efficient thing to use. Sometimes, that isn't the case. Keep some Masterwork Weapons of a particular special material handy, just in case.

- Weapon Blanches. A last resort item, but it exists.

- Focus on something other than damage. Simple enough, let someone more suited in the party handle it.

- Punch It; Tiger Style. A MoMF is uniquely suited to taking out enemies with DR. A combination of Dragon/Tiger/Element stances can deal 1d10+STR Mod*2.5+3d6+Wis Mod damage twice. Assuming a 22 STR, 20 Wis, a +1 AoMF, and Power Attack this comes out to two hits of 0.8*(5.5+15+10.5+5+1+4)*2+0.05*0.8*(5.5+15+1+4) or 66.82 Average Damage in two hits, plus a save or gain a status effect (I like entangled). This MoMF trails behind if the rest of the party has access to haste, but otherwise can keep up with Falchion Fred. To either make it a mono-stat build or to just secure the damage, you can take Ki Diversity (Dim Mak or Zen Fighter), which will allow you to pump up the damage more. An Agile MoMF can help too.

- Punch it; Halfling Style. It's feat intensive, but a Halfling Monk with the same loadout but with Dex instead of STR deals plus: Weapon Finesse, Pirahna Strike, Risky Strike, Big Game Hunter deals 22.5 average damage per hit.

- Punch it; Size. Potions of Enlarge Person are great, especially if the big scary monster is a "once in a while" thing and not an all the time thing. Enlarge Person adds an average of 3-5 damage per hit, depending on the level, enough to mitigate most forms of DR. It also grants +2 CMB. While in-combat buffs are usually sub-part sometimes, as a Monk, it's all you have. As a special note, if you have a friend Alchemist, you can get things like Beast Shape and Huge Size, which push your damage to the truly obscene levels. Being a Kung-Fu Cave Troll is on the list of things I'm never allowed to do again.

Flight
Flight is troublesome for a couple reasons. It makes someone immune to tripping, and keeps them out of reach of your damage.

- Nets. Always, always carry them in multiples. If you entangle a flying creature in a net, it has to make Fly Checks to even stay afloat.

- Trigger Fly Checks as often as possible. Damage does it. Them staying still does it. Them not moving over half speed does it. A lot of things do it.

- Massive Acrobatics Check. I never actually bother getting flight on my Monks. By the time flying enemies become that common, my monks have a +Acrobatics check for purposes of jumping in the 40's-60's.

- Dispel Magical Flight. Well, -you- don't dispel it, let the party sorcerer/wizard do it.

- Shuriken/Rope Darts. If all else fails, swap to ranged. Hell, use Alchemist Fire if you absolutely have to.

Difficult-Impossible Maneuvers
Monsters have a significantly higher CMD than people. While the higher end CMD of a person will generally be about ~10+7+Level, give or take, monsters increase much, much faster. Further, some monsters are flat-out immune to certain things. How does a Monk deal with that?

- Punch it; Dueling. It may suck, but if you want to reliably hit the big scary monster's CMD you may need to upkeep a Dueling Weapon. I can usually count on GMW/GMF for my Unarmed Strike, but not additional side weapons.

- Punch it; Fury's Fall. Adding +Dex Mod to grapple checks is -huge-, especially if you are already a finesse monk. This can be anywhere from a +3 to +6 bonus.

- Punch it; Maneuver Master. The Maneuver Master, as a swift action that does not cost Ki may choose to add +Wis Mod to one Combat Maneuver before the end of the turn. This is in addition to Flurry of Maneuvers overwhelming the opponent. Combining these things, a Maneuver Master can reliably hit that CMD 45 of yours.

- Have Options. If Combat Maneuvers are your thing, have more than one of them. Dirty Trick (Blind!) + Trip are fan favorites. Greater Bull Rush is another favorite, especially when combined with Ki Throw.

- Accept it. There will still be things that ignore your maneuvers. There will be some enemies you are just -bad- at fighting. For instance, instead of looking at CR 10 critters, look at a CR 9 one--the Greater Air Elemental. Wtf can you do against that? Nothing, that's what. I know, I've been there, and I was level 11. I went off to fight the things that weren't air elementals while the party handled the blow-hard. Smart GMs won't have just one creature, choose your targets.

Putting it Together: Two Builds
Over all, the thing when dealing with the giant Monsters is that playtime is over. You can't BS around or, like I did with Margarate, pull a build out of your butt. The following are two sample Monk builds that approach the "Big, Scary Monster" from completely different angles. This isn't to say that these are the only ways, but just a demonstration that it can be done.

@Liam: Thanks!

RE: Monkey Style

I read it as "successfully deliver," and not "deliver a successful..." In other words, bring the Stunning Fist to the person's doorstep, ring the bell, and hand them the package. Once you do that, your job is done. If they turn around and throw the package away (make the Fort Save) you still did your job because that package was put in that person's hand.

That said, I can understand where you get that interpretation, and grammatically I don't think its "wrong," it really depends on whether the essential quality of "Stunning Fist" in this instance is triggering the Fort Save or them failing that Fort Save. I use the former interpretation because it feels more intuitive to me, and in this instance it brings a mediocre feat from the realm of "bleck" to "useful in a narrow environment."

RE: All the damage calcs.

Oh boy. Really?

@Dabbler: Wouldn't know, having played Monks excessively since Pathfinder came out, I've never been a wallflower before. Well, except when stealthing, of course.

@This Thread: On that note. As a Monk, you have ultimately two jobs on the offense side of things. The first is to set up another player (flanking, Ki Throw, whatever). The second job is to pick out whomever on the enemy team has the most valuable actions and then sit yourself next to them.

Also, a combination of the two. A Monk is simply bad at dealing with Mooks. If you need someone for general minion clearing, look for another class. Monks are built to fight the bigger enemies.

Oh, wow. I forgot my absolute favorite thing to put on an AoMF--Dueling. It's only worth it if you have access to GMW, but boy is it worth it.

Finesse / Agile Halflings are actually some of the best DPR for Monks against Large and Larger opponents, thanks to Risky Striker. By level 10, the pure monk can take -3 AC for +6 damage.

Remember that Potions/Oils of GMW/GMF +1 is almost always more efficient then actually buying a +1 Weapon, and work equally well on the Monk's Unarmed Strike.

The 7-Branched Sword can make people flat-footed with a Trip Attempt, making it one of the cheapest-in-terms-of-investment ways to trigger Medusa's Wrath.

The Rope-Dart may or may not be one of the Monk's best ranged options, depending on whether they can pull the dart back out as part of the attack action.

The Tekko-Kagi, while not a Monk Weapon, allows for disarm checks that don't provoke attacks of opportunity.

The Dan Bong gives a +2 bonus to Grapple Checks. I'm not entirely sure if non-proficiency even matters, since RAW you can't "use them" to start a grapple.

The Emei Piercer or Snake Style is what should be used to qualify for Hamatula Grasp, or whatever its called.

Hamatula Grasp should be your level 13 feat, almost always.

Touch of Serenity should be your level 11 feat, almost always. It's your version of Dazing Assault.

On that note, do not save Stunning Fist. If its available, use it. You lose nothing.

If you don't have any other weapon in mind (or, if you take Quick Draw), start combat with a Net in your hand. Even when not proficient, a Net can be used to easily entangle someone at range and control their movement, and it's usually a better opening than move + unarmed strike.

In an environment with few/no buffs, Monkey Shine is actually better than Dragon Ferocity for damage. You run up to the person, deliver the stunning fist, and on your next turn enjoy that +4 To-Hit/AC during a Flurry of Blows. Remember, they don't have to fail their save, you just have to deliver the Stunning Fist.

Invest in a Garrote and/or the Chokehold Feat--screw nonproficiency, just don't target people with a high CMD. Use your Stealth to sneak in a room, find someone alone, and start choking them so they can't signal their allies. They won't be able to reliably break your hold, so either finish them off or use your impressive movespeed to bring them back to your allies. If you happen to be a 12th level Wanderer, you can actually hide using the person you are grappling as "cover" and then walk them straight through their allies, and there isn't a darn thing they can do about it.

On that note, a Monk with Greater/Rapid Grapple or Flurry of Maneuvers becomes an effective delivery system. Grapple that bragging high-DPR Fighter ally of yours, then use further Grapple Checks to move him your impressive movespeed, allowing him to Full Attack every single round. Alternatively, grab an enemy and do the same thing, bringing them back to your allies.

To a Monk, "Tanking" involves putting yourself in the middle of enemies and Ki-Throwing people back to you. This works well, especially in tunnel systems, and especially with a friendly Wizard using a fog spell to stop ranged attacks. This is particularly effective at chokepoints like doorways. If you do this a lot, take Snake Style.

Remember to spend that money you aren't spending on a better weapon instead on other items. Greater Hat of Disguise (12k) for either +2 STR or +2 Dex and Small Size (a favorite amongst my Agile Monks) and a Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (4k) can go a long way towards helping you hit stuff. In addition, the Monk needs significantly less in terms of defensive items.

Also remember, buffs are significantly more effective on a Monk than they are on every other class (with the exception of Haste). This is why a Monk's best partner is an Alchemist. But even doing the basics, the DPR of a Monk that can rely on GMW/GMF, Inspire Courage, and Haste approaches the DPR of a Falchion-Wielding Fighter with the same buffs and actually surpasses it against creatures that are not immune to Stunning Fist attacks. Always, always, always work with your party to find out what buffs you can get.

Then no one takes AoO's against you, and you cry. MoMF has absolutely amazing defense, but it suffers from being front-loaded (Decreasing returns after the first two levels) and from not being able to contribute meaningfully to a fight. Like, you literally have to stare at each level of Monk after 2 and -especially- after 4 and ask yourself, "Why are you not a fighter?"

I think I actually got some combination of Dragon + Elemental + Tiger actually got pretty close-ish via the Guided Weapon Property. I think it wound up being a single attack that is like, (2d6+3d6+Wis Mod*3.5)*2 damage at level 10, maybe -3d6+Wis Mod from the -final- total depending on how Elemental Strike interacts with Tiger Claws. Assuming a Wis Mod of +8 and Ki Diversity (Dim Mak) (doable) and power attack you wind up with 0.95*103 average damage up to 10 times/day. This is about middle-of-the-road damage after TONS of investment (MoMF -> Unarmed Fighter does better). It's a funny single-target, one-shot-one-kill assassin, though.

Do not use Double Barrel guns or get three arms and you're basically okay. You can cheese a Gunslinger, but you can also very easily choose to -not- cheese a gunslinger just by not being silly.

Does your player have Int 18? If not, do you make whomever plays the Barbarian lift up a horse every time they swing their axe?

Anyways, it actually depends on the spirit in which you do it. If you play it off right it can work. Or it can backfire horribly. Do it at your own risk.

An assassin needs to:
- Stealth
- Infiltrate
- Kill
- Prevent Ressurection (optional)
- Leave (technically optional)

So you're going to want the Greater Hat of Disguise. Access to (Improved) Invisibility or Hide in Plain Sight. Teleport is gold, but not necessary. You're going to want burst damage / a way to secure the kill, ideally past traps / magical protection. At higher levels you're going to have to deal with contingency. Key skills are Stealth, Disguise, Bluff. Helpful skills are Perception, Disable Device, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, any Social Skills. Winning Initiative is also gold.

I want to say the Alchemist and the Sandman Bard are probably best. The Ninja and Monk are good seconds. The Sandman Bard has the capacity to easily put people to sleep for easy CdG, (Improved) Invisibility, Trapfinding, Glibness, et cetra.

The Alchemist has access to much the same. A reusable Elixer of Shadewalking takes care of leaving. Bombs have some of the best and most reliable burst damage in the game. The vivisectionist trades that reliability for even better damage and more subtlety.

The Ninja has... well, everything that makes the Ninja a Ninja. It also has a good stat spread emphasis for this kind of character. Later on, the Strength damage and automatic assassinate abilities make an excellent supplement to damage.

The Monk--in particular, the Maneuver Master Monk, simply can't lose 1v1 fights late-game unless the opponent is flat-immune to status effects / maneuvers. The issue is other mooks and the fact that the monk will take his sweet ol' time getting the job done. The monk is also very... straightforward, which means it's easier to counter.

I recall in 3.5 there being a "cursed wound" that prevents people from healing. Is there anything similar in pathfinder? That one poison might work, but isn't the most efficient solution. Woundweal + a Bleeding Attack means the person is dead, and just doesn't know it yet. Sadly, unless there is something better than Woundweal, this is only a low to mid level solution.