Adding Surprise rounds in 2e

[generaltwig]

I’m looking at adding Surprise Rounds to my game, similar to how they worked in first edition. If combat breaks out and only some (but not all) of the combatants are aware that combat is starting, then we have a Surprise round. Everyone rolls initiative as normal, and is ordered accordingly. But then only those who are aware of combat get to act (in their initiative order). Once this Surprise round is over, we go back to the top of the initiative order for the first full round of combat.

In First edition, during a surprise round, you could only take a single move or standard action. This represented a shorter amount of time to act before everyone was ready and aware of combat. With this standard action you could make a single attack, move or Cast a Spell or similar.

Now in Second edition, during the Surprise round, I’m unsure whether to allow a single action only. (Which wouldn’t allow for Casting a Spell) or whether I should allow 2 actions. (Which would allow creatures to attack twice) or some more nuanced allowance (eg one attack or Cantrip plus one Step)

Has anyone implemented similar in their games? What are your thoughts on this house rule? What should creatures be able to do in a Surprise round?

As a final consideration - Surprise rounds were addressed in Pathfinder Unchained (which was the precursor to Second edition’s 3 action system. Unchained gave two “acts” as follows:

“Surprise Round
When combat starts, if some but not all of the participants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round occurs before the first round of combat. Those who are aware can commit up to 2 acts during the surprise round, and gain a reaction when that round is over. If all combatants are aware of their opponents, skip the surprise round.”

[RH]

I personally like what Unchained had. Keeps some of the flexibility of the new action system while keeping some limits.

[Samurai]

Using a version of the tools in PF2e, I simply say that if someone rolls a natural 20 on their initiative check they achieve a surprise effect and targets are flat footed against them for the 1st round. It's too much trouble to figure out6 which targets did they score 10 higher than, and they shouldn't be able to tell "that guy in the back only rolled a 2 so you got a crit against him, but not the other enemies in front of him", so I just use natural 20's for the Initiative crits. And the flat footed benefit only applies for the character that rolled the 20, not the entire side. It's not a free surprise round or action, but it is still a nice benefit.

[HumbleGamer]

Given how 3actions system, mostly because of reactions work, I find the surprise round not needed.

The best roll, the faster you act.

And since you can also delay your turn/initiative, and because so renouncing to either actions and reactions, giving a surprise round will kill the trade, since you will maintain a reaction from the surprise round.

Because of that, more than surprise turn, during my play I use dynamic initiative.

Through a program a take track of all the characters ( players and enemies ) initiative, and reroll them every round.

Players won't know if they will be able to act faster or slower in the round which has to come, and even a fast character ( high initiative ) which happened to roll a bad score in the first round, could recover in the following one.

Both enemies and players will be unable to make reasoning in terms of

Quote:

in the next turn we will act first, so we are going to kill the wizard even if now we all go on the giant, because the wizard is low in initiative and the giant is third.

And so on.

Ps: To enhance it I also use real time combat options, but it is a little ot.

[FowlJ]

Personally, I would go in the opposite direction - creatures that are surprised lose 1 action on their first turn (and maybe incurs other small penalties like not being able to take reactions), creatures that are not surprised get the normal amount.

This hews closer to how initiative functions by default in PF2, and prevents situations where one side getting surprise in an overwhelming advantage. Sometimes it won't practically do much, but other times it is a meaningful but not necessarily fight winning advantage, which I think is a pretty good place for it to be.

[thenobledrake]

I'm a little confused by the motivation to alter the rules.

As-is, the rules work thus:

1) A party trying to travel unnoticed, or deliberately waiting in ambush, rolls Stealth for initiative.

2) The other side rolls Perception for initiative, unless they were doing something that would call for another trait (like trying to set an ambush themselves).

3) These initiative rolls determine the order creatures act in and...

4) If the Stealth rolls for initiative meet or exceed the Perception DCs of creatures on the opposed side, those creatures start the encounter unaware of the sneaking character.

So if you've rolled well enough to establish "surprise", the rules already have you likely going before your enemies and those enemies not realizing you are there - and if your enemies did happen to beat your initiative they are still not able to do anything to you if they aren't aware of you, so at best they can take some seek actions to try and notice you or continue on about whatever they were doing.

Effectively, there is still a "we get to act while the other side doesn't" at the beginning of an encounter, despite that it's not a special extra round with a specific name and specific limitations.

[rainzax]

Folks I think OP wants to implement, not be talked out of, a Surprise Round as a house rule.

...

Consider this:

2E talks about "refreshing" the 3 Actions and 1 Reaction at the beginning of the turn. Let's call this 4 actions total.

So, during a Surprise round, Acting characters can "refresh" their choice of 2 actions; Gaining either a Single Action plus a Reaction (A+R), or, 2 Actions (AA).

...

Cheers.

[evil homer]

I get the impetus. Transitioning between exploration and encounter mode has proven to be awkward. Not just in a narrative sense either. It doesn't feel like there's a convenient off ramp from Exploration mode.

[generaltwig]

Thanks All. I like your approach Rainzax...I want this house rule to guarantee that when an encounter begins, any creatures that are not surprised get to act first and receive a moderate advantage by this.

I don’t want them to have a full 3-actions (as this seems too great an advantage especially if they have won initiative anyway and get to take 2 full rounds (I.e 6 actions) before the surprised opponents act);

But I’m having trouble with the limitations of what 1 or 2 actions allows. If they receive two actions, then they can attack twice which feels like too much. If they receive only one action, then they can’t cast most spells in the surprise round, which feels unfair to casters.

I’d like them to be able to make one attack, or cast a spell and maybe step too. But I’m wondering what the simplest , most elegant way of codifying this might be.

I feel like spells taking two actions to cast in 2e has more to do with limiting them to one spell per turn, rather than the fact that casting a spell takes longer to achieve in real time than making an attack.

Do you think making two attacks in a surprise round is overpowered?
Do you think casters should be able to cast spells in a surprise round?

Thanks for the input and discussion.

[rainzax]

Ok idea #2.

Assign a DC to the Surprise Round, and have all character roll Initiative.

-Players who are "unaware" (by external criteria) may refresh their Reaction on their turn
-Players who succeed the DC may refresh a single Action (A or R) on their turn.
-Players who critically succeed may refresh two Actions (A+R; or AA) on their turn.

Stipulation: The actions must be off a different "type" (no "attack + attack" or "move + move" etc)

Cheers.

[Shinimas]

thenobledrake wrote:

I'm a little confused by the motivation to alter the rules.

As-is, the rules work thus:

1) A party trying to travel unnoticed, or deliberately waiting in ambush, rolls Stealth for initiative.

2) The other side rolls Perception for initiative, unless they were doing something that would call for another trait (like trying to set an ambush themselves).

3) These initiative rolls determine the order creatures act in and...

4) If the Stealth rolls for initiative meet or exceed the Perception DCs of creatures on the opposed side, those creatures start the encounter unaware of the sneaking character.

So if you've rolled well enough to establish "surprise", the rules already have you likely going before your enemies and those enemies not realizing you are there - and if your enemies did happen to beat your initiative they are still not able to do anything to you if they aren't aware of you, so at best they can take some seek actions to try and notice you or continue on about whatever they were doing.

Effectively, there is still a "we get to act while the other side doesn't" at the beginning of an encounter, despite that it's not a special extra round with a specific name and specific limitations.

The situation when you win at stealth but lose at initiative happens all the time and the whole system breaks down at that point. Do enemies who are unaware of the attackers just keep moving and move 75-90 feet forward? Some maps aren't even that large and it looks and feels silly. Do enemies magically "feel that something is wrong" and start spamming the Seek action? Why? There's no narrative support for all that.

Ambush rules are terrible and require houseruling.

[GM Stargin]

Hrm, how about taking advantage of the crit mechanic in 2e? Any character that gets +10 over the initiative of the highest enemy gets two free actions on their first turn.

Any character that gets 10 under the initiative of the lowest enemy loses an action on their first turn.

I think this scheme doesn't fall down on edge cases and rewards prep before initiating combat. Anything that gives penalties to the opposition while giving a bonus to the party will make it more likely that some of the party get bonus acts while their enemies get less time due to being caught by surprise.

[Malk_Content]

Shinimas wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

I'm a little confused by the motivation to alter the rules.

As-is, the rules work thus:

1) A party trying to travel unnoticed, or deliberately waiting in ambush, rolls Stealth for initiative.

2) The other side rolls Perception for initiative, unless they were doing something that would call for another trait (like trying to set an ambush themselves).

3) These initiative rolls determine the order creatures act in and...

4) If the Stealth rolls for initiative meet or exceed the Perception DCs of creatures on the opposed side, those creatures start the encounter unaware of the sneaking character.

So if you've rolled well enough to establish "surprise", the rules already have you likely going before your enemies and those enemies not realizing you are there - and if your enemies did happen to beat your initiative they are still not able to do anything to you if they aren't aware of you, so at best they can take some seek actions to try and notice you or continue on about whatever they were doing.

Effectively, there is still a "we get to act while the other side doesn't" at the beginning of an encounter, despite that it's not a special extra round with a specific name and specific limitations.

The situation when you win at stealth but lose at initiative happens all the time and the whole system breaks down at that point. Do enemies who are unaware of the attackers just keep moving and move 75-90 feet forward? Some maps aren't even that large and it looks and feels silly. Do enemies magically "feel that something is wrong" and start spamming the Seek action? Why? There's no narrative support for all that.

Ambush rules are terrible and require houseruling.

Enemies unaware of combatants would just do whatever they were before the rolls. This seems simple enough and not arbitrary. So if you are springing an ambush on an enemy patrol, those enemies would likely Stride and then Seek, as if they were doing a regular patrol exploration. Maybe they arent a patrol, but you are abusing a supply line, the sure the enemies are striding twice.

Maps can always be extended if needs be.