Sangalor's page

Just to provide the "final" answer: The Paizo Design Team clarified this in a post and in an official FAQ entry:
Spontaneous casting only works for the class it belongs to.

Spontaneous Casting and Multiple Classes: Can I spontaneously cast spells from one of my classes using a different class’s spell slots?

No. This is only possible if you have a class feature that explicitly allows it, such as Combined Spells. This applies even if the two classes share a spell list or if one of the classes allows you to spontaneously convert that class’s spell slots into certain spells on that class’s spell list, such as cleric and druid.

Hope that settles it :-)

Quote:

I would consider it equally bad if the celestial template gave you paladin's smite, btw. Luckily it doesn't ;-)

Actually, it does.

Wrong. It does not bypass DR.

As basic it is too powerful.
If you removed the cure light wounds and flare burst plus the alertness feat and skill bonus, I think it would be ok. Then it's something highly unusual with great RP potential, and the detect magic plus ignan speech abilities would allow even nonmagical characters like a fighter with eldritch heritage to profit from it.
As a bonus, if umproved familiar feat was taken it could unlock further abilities :-)

I don't see rogues to be "dead meat". In practice in all the groups where there were rogues (most of them), they pulled their own and were valuable.
Particularly when you either don't want a "magic" character or you want features that are always "on" (skills, talents, ...)

@Broken Zenith: Nice writeup :-) A particularly vocal group will disagree with you, but well - I find there to be unwarrented bad rep for the rogue on the boards here anyway.
Though rogues are probably not the most powerful of all classes, they do have their place :-)

...

Edit: Sangalor, what trait is that? Damn, I have missed out.

Focused mind

It has been clarified by the designers in several posts I have seen that "wielding" is to mean "in hand". It must be even a hand with which you can make an attack as far as I know, so third hands or tails or such wouldn't work.

It certainly is a drawback for the arcane duelist. On the otherhand, it at least increases the value of that trait that gives you a universal +2 to concentration check :-/

I don't think the first worlder is a bad choice. It has a few advantages that are not quite so obvious, some are listed in my post and the rest of that thread.

Sage is good, you'll cover most knowledge skills. Maybe pick up few more class skills with traits, particularly knowledge so you can reap the benefits of that high intelligence.

As a spontaneous caster metamagic is where one of your strengths, so use it:
- intensify spell and heighten spell to keep all your spells relevant: you can pick a few spells and heighten or modify them otherwise to keep them relevant (e.g. spontaneously heighten light to dispel darkness, save on an additionaly higher level light spell etc.), fireball remains relevant till at least level 15
- elemental spell to save on spells and convert as necessary
- quicken spell is a given

Lookup Brewer's guide to the blackbuster wizard. You don't need all the stuff from there, but it gives a lot of good advise.

I would take improved initiative as soon as possible, going first is important. Also take at least spell penetration if not also greater spell penetration to be successful as a blaster.

I would consider taking at least arcane blast so you always have something to fall back on if elemental resistances or spell resistance just stops you in your tracks.

Be sure to take great fortitude or you will die an early death. If you can squeeze it in, toughness might be up your alley. Also, as others have suggested, swap strength with constitution.

What I have described above lets you save on a lot of spells, so you have more left to be versatile. If you want to be really hard to stop, take still and silent spell (you already got eschew materials), so even bound, gagged and without equipment you will be able to do something. In those situations summon monster is very versatile, as is alter self: Need darkvision, swim speed, climb speed, ... ? Just alter yourself into an appropriate race. Also great for infiltration, though you should pick up tongues and comprehend languages just to be sure.

So yes, I think it definitely works, the sage sorcerer is really versatile :-)

Maybe let him take the eldritch heritage line of feats? Thus he could display truly sorcerous powers but needs no spellcasting at all :-)

@Dabbler:
You are still not getting the point. The monk is not supposed to *best* at something, he is supposed to be competent and *good* at many things.
The package of the monk is great, and though many arguments you make sound good, fact is none of your (counter) examples can do everything the monk can do. Nothing is as mobile, as defensive, as self-sufficient, as decent at damage, as able to provide status effects etc. as the monk. Many builds, regardless which class you use, can be better if not much better at 2 or 3 things, but they won't be able to do everything.

You seem to have a very fixed image of what the monk is supposed to be like and in what way a monk "contributes to a party". What you can't seem to accept is that the monk can be fine and adequate just the way he is - as another poster pointed out it is hard to look at all your posts and find love for the monk in it, at least as long as it does not fit your picture of the unarmed improved fighter. You may mean it, but it comes across differently.

I also cannot share your views on immunities. Immunities are *great*. Your argument that the other classes "will save anyway" is a strawman. Certainly they will save many times - but they will fail. For example, in a poison intensive adventure path such as serpent skull immunity to poison is invaluable. Immunity is completely different from having good saves.

Regarding the spell resistance, you apparently neither read the thread I linked to nor what I wrote. You have your own view on how SR works, that's fine. To me it's perfectly clear it works differently in the case of cure spells. And apparently that view is shared by quite a few people, hence the FAQ thread.

Finally you asked what the point of flurry of blows is. I believe it is a creative way of giving the monk a damage boost while at the same time enabling him to a) represent the typical image of a lightning fast striking martial artist while b) allowing him to apply status effects. And it performs quite well there. And no, again and again, the monk *does* hit reliably. He just won't hit against every opponent with all of his attacks. But many attacks are performed at very high attack bonuses, the rest may hit or may not hit - it does not matter. In that sense he performs well enough and has the chance to perform even better with good rolls on later attacks. Feats like hammer the gap (non-CRB, thus not relevant here) can really improve those hits further in ways they don't for non-flurries.

It's fine for you to have your view on the monk, and the way you present it is not wrong. It's just that what I expect of the monk and what I consider to be important is something completely different, and there the monk does really well - much better than a barbarian, a fighter, a paladin, a ranger or another martial class. :-)

I have read - and partially participated in - a lot of monk threads so I am well aware of the arguments in favor and against the monk.
I disagree with the notion that the monk is weak. All the math and all the "evidence" I have seen always assume some kind of scenario where the role of the monk is shown not to be "the best" or "the strongest", followed by a reasoning that since class X can be better at actions A&B and class Y better at B&C the monk "sucks" and is "weak". The discussions usually also focus on unarmed strike and the disadvantages and costs of amulet of mighty fists, since using weapons (or a single weapon which only the monk can do TWF with by the way) is not what "people" want the monk to be.

It is really funny that one of the other classes which is claimed to be useless out of combat and less relevant in combat - the fighter - is used as a benchmark vs. the fighter in this thread. Incidentally, I also find that statement not to be true.

What I believe is that there are different roles that classes can assume in a game and that largely decides upon the usefulness and players' satisfaction with them.

So I think that Marthkus already has been proven wrong with his initial assertion; the fighter definitely blows the monk away in terms of damage. So will the barbarian and - in many instances - the ranger and the paladin. And that is good, after all the fighter (and the other full BAB classes) is supposed to be good at his job.
However, Marthkus would be right when he had advertised the monk as being a better multiplier of groups abilities, annoying to the opponents of a party.
The monk is not designed to be standing still, flurrying away to take out opponents in one on one fights. He is however very well suited to
- provide flanking to make sneak attacks a real threat and help the fighter to hit even better, maybe even with that last attack
- not be taken out easily: spells (at least from items or creatures that have spellcasting that can hurt but not at full caster level) will fizzle or be saved against, maneuvering will be countered with the monk's high mobility and abilities like abundant step, disease and poison immunity negate major threats of high CR monsters
- chip away damage consistently to make sure the Balor or other opponents have lost just enough HP so the fighter can kill them - after all, they fight as well at 1 HP as with 370 HP
- provide debuffs like stunning, speed reductions or even making them shaken or flat-footed (those last two not really in CRB though), thus - again - enabling sneak attack and reducing their AC
- assume the role of a backup fighter or a backup skill monkey. This is due to the monk 4 skill points (not so much, but OK) and the many useful bonus feats he gets that open up slots for skill focus feats and the like (this is more important).

I think Marthkus has proven with his build and the arguments that the above is true :-)

Something that I find curious is that spell resistance is considered to be such a disadvantage. I have played monks with spell resistance before and I do so currently. We play by the rules, and I can honestly say that there has not been a single instance where spell resistance has been a problem:
- SR does not apply to cure spells. Read the cure light wounds spell description and you will see. Though not decisive, this is a big part of the arguments that are made.
- SR is supposed not be relevant for enemy casters since "they will make the caster level check anyway". Well, the same is true for player parties: You have full-CL wizards, clerics, bards etc. Particularly wizards will want to invest in spell penetration or other CL increasing feats or items anyway, so they will succeed with haste and other in-combat buffs.
- Many buffs can be applied before combat, so lowering the SR is not a problem. And if for some reason the attack should come at exactly that moment, the monk will likely save and is protected next round.

The monk has an excellent defensive package and abilities that enable him to be quite self-sufficient, in turn allowing him to compensate for weaknesses in the party or adding weight to certain tactics.

To put it into a short statement wrt. the title of this thread: Monks are not "better" than fighters at high levels, but they are "better" than a second martial - be it ranger, barbarian, paladin or ranger :-)

As long as you don't mind fluffing a templesword as a katana (glamer it if you want ;-)) you could go with a mix of ninja, monk and fighter.
Here is a sample build at level 15:

Kenshin Build
Human Fighter (Weapon Master) 7 Monk (Ki Mystic, Sensei) 4 Ninja 4
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +10; Senses Perception +25
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Defense
--------------------
AC 33, touch 26, flat-footed 28 (+4 armor, +4 Dex, +3 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 115 (7d10+8d8+30)
Fort +17, Ref +19, Will +20; +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +2 bonus vs. effects targetting a Temple sword held by you
Defensive Abilities uncanny dodge
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee +3 Ki focus, Merciful Adamantine Temple sword +26/+21/+16 (1d8+13+1d6 non-lethal/19-20/x2) and
. . Temple sword +23/+18/+13 (1d8+8/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +20/+15/+10 (1d10+4/x2)
Special Attacks advice: inspire competence +2, advice: inspire courage +1, ki attack speed, ki strike, magic, reliable strike: temple sword (1/day), sneak attack +2d6, weapon training +2: temple sword
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 24, Cha 8
Base Atk +13; CMB +18; CMD 43 (49 vs. Disarm, 49 vs. Sunder)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dazzling Display (Temple sword), Dodge, Furious Focus, Improved Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Power Attack -4/+8, Quick Draw, Shatter Defenses (Temple sword), Stunning Fist (7/day) (DC 24), Weapon Focus (Temple sword), Weapon Specialization (Temple sword)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +22 (+27 to jump, +26 jump), Appraise +4, Climb +10, Disguise +4, Intimidate +17, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (engineering) +6, Knowledge (geography) +6, Knowledge (history) +6, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (nobility) +6, Knowledge (planes) +6, Knowledge (religion) +6, Perception +25, Ride +8, Sense Motive +11, Sleight of Hand +8, Stealth +22, Survival +11, Swim +8; Racial Modifiers ki jump (running start), ki mystic - knowledge, no trace +1
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus +9, advice (11 rounds/day), insightful strike, ki defense, ki focus, ki movement, ki mystic - insight, ki pool, ki stealth, maneuver training, merciful, ninja tricks (combat trick, weapon training), poison use, slow fall 20', stunning fist (stun, fatigue), unarmed strike (1d10), weapon guard +2: temple sword
Other Gear +3 Ki focus, Merciful Adamantine Temple sword, Temple sword, Amulet of natural armor +3, Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +4), Boots of striding and springing, Bracers of armor +4, Cloak of resistance +5, Gloves of dueling, Handy haversack (empty), Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Monk's robe, Ring of protection +2, 8440 GP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Advice (11 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/11
Ki Pool (Su) - 0/13
Reliable Strike: Temple sword (1/day) (Ex) - 0/1
Stunning Fist (7/day) (DC 24) - 0/7
--------------------
Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +9 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Advice (11 rounds/day) (Ex) A sensei's advice is identical to bardic performance (using oratory), allowing him to inspire courage at 1st level, inspire competence at 3rd level, and inspire greatness at 9th level, as a bard of the sensei's level, usable a total number of rounds
Advice: Inspire Competence +2 (Su) +2 competence bonus for one ally on a skill check.
Advice: Inspire Courage +1 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Dazzling Display (Temple sword) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Blind-Fight Melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment. Invisible attackers within 30' you have pinpointed gain no advantages to hit you with ranged attacks.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Insightful Strike (Ex) At 2nd level, a sensei may use his Wisdom bonus in lieu of his Strength or Dexterity on attack rolls and combat maneuver checks with unarmed strikes or monk weapons. This ability replaces evasion and the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.
Ki Attack Speed (Su) By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a ninja can make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus, but she can do so only when making a full attack.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki focus Channel ki attacks through weapon.
Ki Jump (Running Start) (Su) Jumping is always counted as being at a running start.
Ki Movement A Ninja can spend 1 point to increase her speed by 20 feet for 1 round.
Ki Mystic - Insight (Ex) 1 Ki point: +4 Insight bonus to an ability or skill check.
Ki Mystic - Knowledge (Su) If the monk has at least 1 point of ki in his ki pool, he gains a +2 bonus on all Knowledge skill checks.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Stealth A ninja can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth skill checks for 1 round.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Merciful +1d6 damage, but all damage is nonlethal.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
No Trace +1 (Ex) Survival DCs to track you are at +1, gain +1 to Stealth when you are stationary and not acting.
Poison Use You do not risk poisoning yourself accidentally while poisoning a weapon.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Reliable Strike: Temple sword (1/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Slow Fall 20' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Sneak Attack +2d6 +2d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Stunning Fist (7/day) (DC 24) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Weapon Guard +2: Temple sword (Ex) +2 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +2: Temple sword (Ex) +2 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.

About 8000 gold are left. You could use it to make the sword look different (katana), buy small items, consumables, ...

When you use furious focus and power attack, you do 1d8+25+1d6 nonleathal if you let the merciful property activated.
You deflect attacks thanks to crane style for the small cost of 1 attack bonus and can even counterattack.
Finally, mobility and ki lets you move around rather freely, and improved blind-fight lets you ignore shadow concealment and standard defenses like blur.
Finally, you got lots of skills to play around.

Maybe this gives some ideas :-)

This is different to a rage or other listed features.

Also, the OP only posted a general example. The spells I know which are affected have extra text that states that in the case of cure X wounds "an undead *may* apply spell resistance". So others don't need to.

AC comparison: touch spells don't require an attack roll if the target is willing, and they don't need to state this on their turn. So for SR you would not need this either.

The only effect hatmless might hint at restricting is that when you are unconscious your SR remains up.

It's disappointing to see that when you don't agree you are either accused of trolling or being in denial.

I only pointed out flaws in assumptions which according to the rules are not extreme but the default.
I also explained why I don't consider medium BAB to be a problem. And that rogues should not be as powerful in combat as full BAB classes.

I consider the package of the rogue to be quite decent. With the new rulings on SLA you can even be a magic item crafter early on. You have SA which gives you a damage boost when necessary. You sap away Str damage on opponents, weakening them for the benefit of you companions.
You have lots of flexibility built into the class.
Other classes can do parts of it, but never everything, and never without expending resources.

When some here consider traps boring, that is their personal opinion. I don't, my groups don't, and others here don't see it that way either.

Every class has some weak spots so that they are dependent on others. Ranger sucks when you picked the wrong FE. Casters have problems with golems and in AMF. The list goes on.

We enjoy playing rogues as well as bards, fighters, sorcs etc. They complement each other, which is fun.

Enjoy the debate, I agree that it's not worth continuing :-)

Sneak attack is a powerful feature, particularly with extra effects such as ability damage, and if you want to you will get its conditions met.

Blur and other concealmenr-based arguments are also of limited value, because
1) concealment affects all martials
2) a rogue could simply pick shadow strike

Apparently people here play with very simple traps, none where poison with ability damage or similar effects happen. Otherwise I can't understand the argument that all you need is a wand of cure light wounds. Which again costs money and may not easily be replaceable.

The rogue has its own unique set of abilities which give you lots of options and ways to be useful. Others can only offer parts of that.

Similarly, the fact that the beard requires no hands gives the reasoning behind the exception.

It's not a note that it doesn't take physical hands, otherwise things like armor spikes would have that in their text. It's a note that it actually requires no hands (mechanically) to use.

Design wise, the AoO pays the price for this exception.

So does that mean that when I use an unarmed strike WITHOUT the improved unarmed strike feat that I get to attack while wielding a 2H weapon since it not only also provokes but only does nonlethal damage, thus I pay (twice) for it?

Or do you mean to say that it has to say explicitely that it does not use the (abstract) "hands" even though it provokes to be eligible for use?

Thank you for the quick replies :-)

...

Sangalor wrote:

I guess this also means not only armor spikes but also off-hand attacks with unarmed strikes (knee-kicks etc.) in combination with a 2H weapon are out, because that would net you 2xStr damage (1.5xStr damage from main-hand, 0.5xStr damage from off-hand) or even 2.5xStr damage in the case of a monk two-handing a temple sword and attacking with unarmed strike in a flurry (which is like TWF and full Str bonus applies)?

Yes (barring monks, who break the rules in their own ways).

Ah, so the monk has a few mechanical advantages or at least more options. That should make some people more satisfied with the monk :-)

Sangalor wrote:

What happens if I attack once per round 2H with a 1H-weapon and then only attack with it in 1H (e.g. when I have 3 main-hand and 2 off-hand attacks) - would that be legal because I am not breaking the limit, or is using the 2HW 1/round already enough to disallow 2WF then?

Perhaps because it's after midnight, but I don't understand your question. Can you give a more specific, detailed example?

...

What I meant with this is the following: Suppose you have a BAB of +11 and thus 3 attacks and you have 2 extra attacks from TWF. Let's say you have quick-draw or the improved unarmed strike feat and you are wielding a longsword.

I am certain it's legal and that nobody will find you a quote that states it's not legal.
And if for some obscure reason someone should: It would most certainly invalidate most of the armor spikes / blade boot / unarmed strike / whatever combinations used to optimize builds here. I would then wonder why it has not popped up before.
But as I wrote, I am sure it's legal :-P

Neo2151 wrote:

gustavo iglesias wrote:

Here's is a list of classes that are bad at saves, in general:

Rogue/ninja
Cavalier/samurai
Fighter

That's it. Everybody else has at least 2 good saves, or their only good save is will (which is the one that overshadows the others) or a class feature that raises saves (Barbarians with Will, even without raging powers. +2 to will at first level means it's a good save too), or spells that protect you (it doesn't really matter if you fail your REF save vs the dragon breath and your fort save vs slay living if you have protection from elements and death ward)

If you ask me, I'll give a second good save to ALL of those classes above. Be it will, ref, or fort.

Personally, I'd go with REF for Fighters, Will for Cav/samurai and Will for Rogue/ninja

You are seriously undervaluing Fort saves here. Fort is to Caster as Will is to Fighter.

Also, blanket-assuming that every protection spell you'd need is available and ready is as bad as Schrodinger's Wizard - ie: it's not a constructive argument.

I'm not assuming they are ready every time you need them. I'm assuming is a tool in their arsenal, which sometimes help (often, in serious fights). Fighters don't have such tool in their arsenal because... well.. they don't have tools at all. So while *sometimes* the casters won't have a protection spell available, the fighter *never* will have them.

Not really - a fighter could spend his standard (character) feats on skill focus (use magic device), even could take magical aptitude on top of that and be pretty much OK with using wands or scrolls. Could even buy a headband of intelligence to save ranks in use magic device.

Fighters - like rogues/ninjas, cavaliers etc. - spend money on these kinds of things. They have the feat slots to burn and are flexible enough this way. Things like protection from evil, magic circle against evil etc. are not that expensive or difficult to come by. Once the fighter starts crafting everything is open anyway.

Also, what has not been discussed here is the low-magic/no-magic campaign setting (note: that includes not having full-casters, obviously). There fighters are quite powerful (heavy armor, bonuses to hit and damage as class features).

"because everything else I have seen so far has some kind of limitation like "Generally...", not some hard and clear-cut statement."

It's a hard and clear-cut statement for everything than exceptions wich are especially mentioned.

So it does not qualify, because the feats state a "caster level", not an "effective caster level" and caster level is generally defined as levels in a caster class and the feat does not state any exceptions to this rule.

Where is the term "effective caster level" mentioned?

Gnome Magic: Gnomes add +1 to the DC of any saving throws against illusion spells that they cast. Gnomes with a Charisma of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, and speak with animals. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell's level + the gnome's Charisma modifier.

It says "caster level", not "effective caster level". Limiting it to "these effects" is no different IMO than limiting it in the way of "for this spellcasting class".

A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.

and

A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier.

There are two limitations in the statement: For "most" and "spellcasting characters". Someone who uses a spell-like ability is not a spellcasting character. And even if he was, "most" limits it further - probably to also cover the 7/10 advancing prestige classes or those with a reduced caster level like ranger or paladin. So it either does not apply to spell-like abilities or leaves enough room to interpret it differently.

I searched the magic chapter and found no limitation.
I also checked the magic items chapter:

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

This is not really relevant to the question of whether you can pick up the feat or not, but interesting to see: Spell-like abilities also count for fulfilling crafting requirements.

So to sum it up, I do not see the need for a clear statement that permits the existance of spell-like abilities to qualify for taking feats, but either a) a statement somewhere that says "spell-like abilities" / "the caster level for spell-like abilities" do not qualify, or b) some statement somewhere in the line of "only spellcasters qualify for taking crafting feats" :-)

Yahoo, another "fighters have problems", "fighters suck", ... threads :-P

These never seem to die out.
To make it short from my side:
- Fighters work really well
- Fighters are pretty much the only truly mundane combat class. I like that!
- You don't need weird or predetermined backgrounds to explain why a fighter is what he is (no faith, arcane studies etc.)
- Fighters are consistent. And yes, our casters had to learn the hard day that we don't stop after novaing the first hour of a travel day. And when you can always stop when the other classes are out of juice, then you play a very different game then I do
- The feats are very flexible, particularly when you look at feats for UMD, eldritch heritage, skill focus etc.
- Fighters cannot be shut down by emotion calming effects (barbarians), are out of luck when encountering the wrong enemy (ranger), the enemy is not evil (paladin) etc.
- Focusing on combat only is a mistake by the player, not the class
- The fighter-only feats provide great options, e.g. to lock down foes, like teleport tactician
- They are wonderful with class dips
- Most of the above and some more has already been written, I just emphasize ;-)

Regarding the question what armor training and weapon training give you:
- Weapon training: Besides increasing the bonuses to hit and damage, you can also choose to ignore weapon spec and focus on other things if you like. And the bonuses to CMB/CMD you get are across a wide range of weapons. Finally, it's particularly useful for weapons where you can't get extra damage bonuses easily, e.g. a crossbow.
- Armor training: Fighter is the only class that can tumble (acrobatics) in heavy armor. Otherwise the only race I am aware of that can do it are dwarves. Finally, the improvements to armor check penalty allow a fighter to swim/climb etc. in armor.

If you are interested, search for Bob Loblaw's post regarding 40 (or more) things only fighters can do. Great stuff in there :-)

@Ilja:
What I meant with move+attack is that in the case of a single attack (due to moving, e.g. when flying/moving to enemies) the Synthesist will suffer much more.

I also disagree on the ranged damage: The synthesist first has to get to it to hurt it, and I don't consider the damage as piddly as you make it out to be :-)

Casting spells shouldn't be factored in here, because you don't do damage then, and that was your point I thought... If we allow casting/using magic items then the game changes a lot. For example, potions and other consumables become an option, that changes things a lot IMO.

5 hours adventuring day is definitely too short for me, sorry. And the APs I've played definitely have more then 1-2 hours, especially since you don't know *when* the enemy will attack. Otherwise you will have to reduce one round of attacks with your synthesist for casting mage armor ;-)
Also, really, even APs aren't the only thing: People play different games, and I assume at least a 12-14 hour adventuring day: 8 hours resting plus a few hours for eating/cooking/...

Regarding level 7: I'll look at it. I would possibly change the build, but I gotta look into it :-)

Yea, I found it funny when I saw you comment on it there too :)

Hehe. But you know what's really funny?

I saw the thread title and thought "Is this going to have voice of the spheres in it?" - well :-P

Generally, just some ideas, you probably need to consider changes like this:
- Change CR if stat bonuses are greater than (CR+5)/2 - this keeps some of the big to hit monsters in check (tunable of course)
- Allow class DR and armor DR to stack
- Add some damage ratings like damage d=rolled damage-DR. d up to hitdie of character is nonlethal, afterwards it's lethal. Critical hits are always lethal -> This allows characters to endure more.
- Allow some kind of attack-dodging mechanic, e.g. acrobatics check against 10 + attack roll - you dodged it when you made it. Should allow you to implement the nimble fighters in classic settings.
- Allow something like the duelists parrying ability as a standard feature for all purely martial classes
- Increase all skillpoints by 2 to even out things that are not available through items
- More mundane item counters, e.g. real antidots that cure instead of just provide a bonus against poisons, material that is highly resistant to fire etc.
- Consider giving out bonus teamwork feats every 5 levels or so - PCs get some boosts and it encourages teamwork further
- Prayers and similar spiritual "motivations" increase natural healing ratio
Stuff like that :-)

There are bad things out there, but I do not belive there is something worst than

Voices of the Spheres

At 2nd level, an empyreal knight learns to speak and read Celestial, if she could not already.

This ability replaces divine grace.

Basically in exchange of a powerful defensive ability you gain a point in linguistic.

Archetypes have to be evaluated as the full package. You need celestial later for thst one, they decided that divine grace gotta go, so they assigned this to replace it. They probably could have chosen to assign it differently, but it might have been too late then.

So I disagree :-)

We have to agree to disagree then, Sangalor. Thanks for using a calm and respectful tone in your posts. It is a welcome change in the boards.

Fine with me :-)

And no thanks required - being respectful should be the standard, not something requiring praise :-)

- Whenever you need to cast a spell over and over again, e.g. to damage doors or locks
- When you have extra damage on it, e.g. sneak attack
- When you have extra effects riding on it, stunning/hindering/paralyzing/slowing/... someone. Some creatures are sensitive to acid.
- When you can stop regeneration or achieve similar effects
- It is a ray, so you can take weapon focus (and if you are EK or fighter) take weapon specialization on it
- Whenever you need a low-level spell that does not have spell resistance

It is generally considered to be one of the better 0-level spells, to be honest :-)

Fangalor... I cannot thank you enough for these options, truly above and beyond.

Still have to explore/weigh merits of Hexcrafter vs. Fighter -- and sadly I think I flashed my badge by telling my GM what my class was, which subsequently got out to the group I was thinking about a HC.

Two other people have Advocated Alchemist so if it can be argued that an alchemist at 8th is more than a match for Fangalor's concept -- I'd like to hear it... I think a melee alchemist (Hyde type) could really speak to me.

As far as backstory, I am thinking for a Fangalor fighter He's going to be a Warrior of hundreds of battles, who from the blightlands, to the edge of the worldwound, to the depths of the underdark has tried to keep evil and abberations at bay, and finally gives up -- realizing it is not in the power of mortals to stop what he sees as the inevitable destruction of the world, as such he must achieve godhood to truly stop these threats, and seeks the Starstone. His personality will be utterly savage on the spectrum of half-orcs, but his intentions are 100% noble. Being the product of an... unwelcome union resulting from an orcish incursion over the lastwall, he grew up with the philosophy that the only thing that destroys a monster is a bigger monster -- which is what he ever seeks to be.

For a Melee Alchemist I'd go with Rynjin's idea of a Scientist that seeks a perfect form that transcends mortality is a great idea. I have a romantic attraction to the idea of "the answer to monster is bigger monster" so I'll have that be a cornerstone of this character as well, but instead of orc savagery the alchemist would be seeking to transform into a danger so hideous the mind of a simple mortal could not encapsulate it's dark scope. His intentions may be less noble, but he is ultimately pro-civilization, and would feel the world was safer with him at the top of the food-chain, especially if his "diet" consisted mostly of apex-predators, evil tyrants, and greedy usurpers. I'll have to read up on how alchemist...

I assume with "Fangalor" you are referring to me ;-)

I also like your story ideas, they certainly offer you a lot of depth to develop your character further.

Just to say it, I believe that alchemist is a viable and flexible class, you most likely have a good chance with it. If you are going for a "Hyde"-like character, be sure to watch your initial and altered alignments - they could make your life and that of your group difficult.

There are lots of different character builds you can pursue to your goal, some more difficult than others. Since you start at level 8, quite a few character builds that often have difficulties surviving to a certain level before they come together are possible for you.

Since you seem to prefer a somewhat dark note to your background story, here are some more suggestions:

- Eldritch Knight, maybe with a darker (abyssal etc.) eldritch heritage included to reflect a somewhat sinister heritage that you decide to work against -> full arcane spells, high BAB, pretty powerful. Can be built melee or ranged focused
- Rage prophet: Mix barbarian with oracle, choose the lame curse to become immune to fatigue and exhaustion and thus rage cycle (enter and leave rage multiple times a round - costs you more rage rounds though). Barbarian get nifty powers like spell sunder where you literally smash spells to bits and pieces. Oracle gives you divine spell power in addition.
- Full sorcerer with a darker heritage
- Ranger, possibly with horizon walker levels with not-so-nice terrains for special abilities
- Fighter/Shadowdancer mix - extra abilities and good combat capability. Plus a (good) undead shadow that serves you
- Cavalier/Samurai with an order that focuses on itself, like cockatrice or ronin. Particularly ronin is pretty powerful.
- Paladin/Dragon disciple mix: Awesome in melee, be the realized draconic might of power and good.

Since I have them lying around I thought I might further complicate your choice by giving you more options ;-)

Enjoy :-)

Just for the fun of it I built an unbreakable fighter for level 8 and level 13

The idea of this build is

• You get to use the buckler even while wielding 2HW and can make shield bashes with it.
  
• As a 2HW I suggest a weapon with reach, since the buckler helps you to threaten adjacent squares.
  
• The buckler helps you to increase your AC further.
  
• Eldritch heritage gives you a ranged touch AC with heavenly fire and wings and permanent resistances.
  
• Vital strike chain keeps your damage output high when you move around.
  
• Furious focus ensures your first power attack is at your best bonus.
  
• Stalwart covers the most dangerous spells, ring of evasion adds evasion to that mix (if you wear light armor, here not included)
  
• Orc Ferocity will let you hang on, your damage goes actually up with the deathless initiate feat
  
• Deadly aim keeps ranged attacks worthwhile
  
• Darkvision allows scouting and deal with lighting problems.
  

This should be quite a viable character, adjustable to your liking. Consumable will keep you going until you get the respective abilities (flight etc.) or gear (celestial armor) yourself.

You probably want to put survivability first, so that means
1 - saves
2 - HP
3 - AC
4 - other defenses
Characters who can fulfill those requirements are
- monks - really hard to beat to the ground if built correctly, plus they get spell resistance
- paladins
- unbreakable fighters
- inquisitors
- invulnerable ragers with superstition
- bards

The bards I add because if you invest into it and get the saving/... finale type of spells it will be hard to hammer you to the ground. Plus you can buff yourself, heal yourself and be underestimated by many. If you look at arcane duelist, for example, they can get *really* nasty. Just be sure to use more than just AC to get those other PCs off your back ;-)

If you go for the others, consider dipping into a level of another class to boost saves and open up alternative class features. For example, a two-level dip into rogue nets you evasion, so if you take that on your inquisitor you get stalwart+evasion+high saves -> you will pass almost anything. Same holds true for the unbreakable fighters.
Monks are just a pain in the a** to kill if they are built correctly. Main problem usually is their ability to hit, but if you go for a mix between flurry-able ranged attacks (e.g. shuriken with deadly aim) and close combat weaponry (+x weapons - new ruling states you can flurry with one weapon) you can manage there as well. Plus if you look at martial artist, DR won't be a problem for you, so the opposing barbarian/monster/armor master fither/... will be hurt more than he expects.

Paladins are also truly nasty to beat down.

Generally, look at feats that keep your touch AC high or allow you to deflect spells like that as well. For example, ray shield is cool for that. You do not want that disintegrate spell to hit you... :-P

Finally consider adding helpful features like through the eldritch heritage line of feats or some prestige classes like the shadow dancer. If you can't hurt enough directly, ensure they don't hit you (stealth, teleports, concealments, summoned critter meatshields, shield spells etc.).

Hope that gets you started :-)

I second that heighten is a useful and solid feat and often underrated. Also, it does not only help your spells, but it helps your spell to do something *at all* when faced with the globe of invulnerability spells - something that all the other feats cannot do.

As an added bonus - though more circumstantial - it can also help you layer your defensive buffs better to counter dispelling. For example, if you usually buff yourself with a blur spell and a greater invisibility spell, and you want to protect that ínvisibility - cast the blur at a higher level. The way standard dispel works it starts with the highest level spell, which would then be the blur spell.

Finally, look at preferred spell. Though it is less useful for spontaneous casters than for prepared casters, it allows you to
a) not increase the casting time for a feat, means you can stack metamagic feats onto it without going for a full-round casting, keeping mobility high
b) potentially - this is not clear from the feat description - use other classes spell slots to power your specific spell. So if you are e.g. going for Mystic Theurge you could possibly be able to use your divine spells to cast that specific arcane spell and vice versa - spam away :-)

NPCs also need feats. Also what a waste is depends on the campaign and the DM.

Options are always nice to have. :-)

Feats that do not give you anything are a problem, though :-/

Usually I would not really advise this, but for the purpose of a whip fighting character going for fighter / bard / eldritch knight might be an interesting option. This here is a suggestion if you do not require the two-weapon fighting tree (still doable, but not what I envision for this thing):

Bard Whip ek
Human Bard (Magician) 7 Eldritch Knight 4 Fighter 1
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 26, touch 12, flat-footed 26 (+11 armor, +3 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 93 (5d10+7d8+24)
Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +9
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +5 Whip +19/+14 (1d3+8/x2)
Special Attacks bardic performance (move action) (19 rounds/day), bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (3 targets) (dc 16), bardic performance: inspire competence +3, bardic performance: suggestion (dc 16)
Bard (Magician) Spells Known (CL 12):
4 (1/day) Invisibility, Greater, Dimension Door
3 (4/day) Haste, Invisibility Sphere, Dispel Magic, Good Hope
2 (5/day) Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Alter Self, Blur, Versatile Weapon (DC 15)
1 (6/day) Cure Light Wounds, Grease (DC 14), Feather Fall (DC 14), Saving Finale (DC 14), Solid Note, Shield, Align Weapon
0 (at will) Mage Hand, Prestidigitation (DC 13), Read Magic, Message, Light, Detect Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 17
Base Atk +10; CMB +13 (+15 Disarming, +15 Tripping); CMD 25 (27 vs. Disarm, 27 vs. Trip)
Feats Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise +/-3, Great Fortitude, Improved Counterspell, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Whip Mastery, Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery
Traits Magical Knack (Bard [Magician]), Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -3 (-7 jump), Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Ride -3, Stealth -3, Swim +0
Languages Common, Draconic, Giant
SQ arcane bond - object (1/day), bardic performance: dweomercraft +2, extended performance, magical talent (1/day)
Other Gear +5 Agile breastplate, +5 Whip, Amulet of natural armor +3, Cloak of resistance +3, Handy haversack (empty), Ring of protection +2, Ring of sustenance, 649 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Bond - Object (1/day) At 5th level, a magician gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard. He may not choose a familiar or a weapon as a bonded item. This ability replaces lore master.

DC 20 + spell level to cast spells without the bonded object. Once per day, you can c
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Bardic Performance (move action) (19 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Dweomercraft +2 (Su) Bonus on caster level checks, concentration checks, and attack rolls with spells and spell-like abilities.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (3 targets) (DC 16) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +3 (Su) +2 competence bonus for one ally on a skill check.
Bardic Performance: Suggestion (DC 16) (Sp) Make a Suggestion to one Fascinated creature.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Extended Performance (Su) Sacrifice a spell slot to extend a performance beyond concentration by the slot's level.
Improved Counterspell Use a spell of the same school 1+ levels higher to Counterspell.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Whip Mastery Threaten with your whip and grasp Tiny objects
Magical Knack (Bard [Magician]) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Magical Talent +3 (1/day) (Ex) You add half your bard level to Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device checks
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Whip Mastery Using a whip does not provoke attacks of opportunity

You have 95 skills to distribute.

Your AC is 26, you enchanted your amulet as a natural armor amulet +3 at 50% discount. By using the magician's ability to get spells from other class lists, you choose shield and align weapon.
Shield allows you to boost AC to 30, align weapon - in conjunction with versatile weapon - allows you to overcome any kind of DR. So you do not really require the +5 whip but can go for something else more different weapons/whips.

Arcane Strike allows you to add +3 to damage.
Power attack is at -3/+6.

Alternatively exchange STR and DEX, drop great fortitude and power attack and pick up weapon finesse and TWF instead. GTWF at next level, increase DEX instead of CHA accordingly :-)

As others have stated you can gain the familiar through the Eldritch Heritage feat for the arcane bloodline and thus add it to every class, so I'll skip that.

TWF and 20 STR: Ranger is probably the best, also gains a few cleric like (i.e. divine) spells like cure light wounds etc.

Bard is universally useful, but TWF is less easy.

Two-Weapon Warrior fighter archetype gets some nice tricks, but as with all builds but the ranger (or monk) you need high dex for the TWF tree. Also gets many skills.

Paladin with a high dex would be quite viable as well.

For the familiar itself you might want to consider the improved familiar feat later on.

So all in all, I suggest the ranger route and eldritch heritage.

It seems that this thread has run out of content and discussion that is interesting to me. I obviously have a different opinion about usefulness and how good the monk is. In this - and other threads - everything centers around to-hit and damage with unarmed strikes. Other arguments, e.g. about defenses, how features of the monk can be used etc., are considered unimportant.

I do not like the tone and what is implied in short, often kind of smart-ass replies, here. For example, I mention an experience to demonstrate when one of the abilities was useful. Then immediately the correctness of that experience is questioned with the remark that since I did not mention one specific item, when I was just stating the experience mind you, it is doubted that this is possible at all. Other examples:

• DR is mentioned as a problem. I answer to use weapons. The next comments? They all "suck".
  
• Monks can heal themselves. Reply? It's "useless".
  
• Slow fall has saved my monk's life more than once. Next remark: A useless ability, everyone should just buy a ring of featherfall or the wizard just casts featherfall, and - real? - characters just take the damage and walk away.
  
• Speed does not matter above a 40ft. Well, if you say so... I do not agree here.
  
• Scouting is a task a monk can fulfill. Then summons are brought up as a real alternative. Well, I am just out of words for this one - a limited ressource, limited usability, difficulties in communication etc.?
  

No, it is pointless. I have read the same statements, mostly by the same people, in many other threads. So by now I think it is just a permanent confirming and reconfirming of a vocal group's opinions.

The good thing that came out of it is that it made me rethink my opinion of the monk. Before I thought it was fine, could maybe have a few improvements to some abilities like tongue of the sun and the moon. Now I still think that, but unarmed strike definitely is not one of those, and neither is to-hit and damage.

So just to make my opinion clear:

• Unarmed strike is fine as it is. It is not intended for real monsters, but more against the "natural" world inhabitants, like humanoids, monstrous humanoids, animals etc. Against those it is quite effective. For all others, i.e. DR, there are weapons. Or the amulet of mighty fists. And styles.
  So Paizo can pretty much keep the monk the way it is, maybe clear up some language and state exceptions for flurrying with two-handed weapons where it is intended.
  
• The defensive package of the monk is great.
  
• The monk has some role playing options many other classes do not have that may approach his AC other defenses. For example, heavy armor cannot be worn at a ball.
  
• The monk is very survivable in many different situations.
  
• Ignoring the monk after a 1 attack or 1 round is metagaming.
  
• Drawing enemy fire or spells helps the party.
  
• There is too much theorycrafting and too little playtesting.
  

So enjoy this thread, it's not one for me :-)

@Sangalor

Lots of people have great "personal experiences" with the monk. I'm among them. The problem is that the unarmed combat monk, in a normal 20 point buy campaign with average rolls, is mathematically inferior to nearly every other class when it comes to just connecting with a hit. It's great that you're the party trap spotter in your campaign. However, lacking Trapfinding you're not going to be as good as a Rogue would be at it, and you're incredibly limited in what you can actually do once you've actually spotted the trap. You can't disarm it (especially if it's magical) and just because you can survive it with your saves and abilities doesn't help the rest of your party in navigating it. The most you can do is an admirable Admiral Akbar impression and yell "It's a trap!"

Disable device can be learned by everyone. Magical traps are not a problem to spot, just to disarm. That's when

Most people want one thing from the monk that he's not currently providing. They want him to be the best at unarmed combat.

That is a claim that is made by a vocal group on these boards. There were other posters (other thread) stating that usually they had monks using weapons.

To clarify that, they want him to be able to hit, reliably, with his punches, and for those punches to mean something when they connect. Give the monk some way to accurately land a hit, and an ability to bypass DR types at a level where everyone else isn't already doing it better, and most people will be happy.
Every other 3/4 class has the capability are of performing their role (skill monkey, healer, buffer etc.) and still be personally effective in combat. The monk is a poor man's substitution in any role other than combat, and can't even effectively do that well.
"But the monk survives! He draws hits (until the enemy realizes they're wasting their time and turns their attention to more immediate threats) "
Congratulations, your player character is now as useful in combat as a wizards defensive construct, a druid's defensively focused animal companion, or a summoner's eidolon (one not optimized for combat, but just survival). You're doing what other classes pets do, while those other classes still have a whole array of abilities and actions they're taking at the same time.

Pets don't talk, or save characters out of social situations, or scout ahead and seize opportunities, or become (for the most part) immune to diseases, or are able to disarm traps, or - to use the example from before - save the remains of a party member, or can use UMD, or ...

Sangalor wrote:

Epic Meepo wrote:

Nicos wrote:

2) The fights do not long much. If the enemy wast even a single spell or attak in the monk that can give the party a crucial advantage.

And if the enemy waste even a single attack on a commoner hireling dressed up as a wizard, that can give the party the same advantage advantage.

Being a target for enemy fire is not a feature of the monk class. Anyone can attempt to draw enemy fire, regardless of class and level.

Maybe. But monks SURVIVE.

THAT is their feature, and their package to do that is greatly underestimated here IMO.

Being able to outlive your party members is not a talent that will make you many friends, and who wants to play the guy who did cartwheels around the battlefield while his buddies were actually connecting and influencing the course of the fight? Granted, there is some value in having a guy who can collect everyone's pinky fingers after a TPK and run them back to a temple for Resurrection.

Well, outliving other party member is one potential consequence. It has happened to my groups a few times. Once my monk was able to pick up a dying character and just run away with him (yes, that increased speed can be really useful).

Also, when a monk draws the enemy's fire and thus prevents the fireball dropped on the bad-ass-greatsword-dpr-optimizied-barbarian-who-has-crappy-reflex-saves or the targeted dispel goes to the monk instead of his greatly buffed eldritch knight buddy, then that's worth it.
And a monk is able to do THAT and survive. Most others cannot without a substantial investments of feats or gear.

And yes, I am personally satisfied if I helped out like that. I do not need to be the one who is the king of damage or mistress of lightning bolts!

I build my characters for survival and to have a few strengths where they shine and look as to how I can contribute to the group. It has worked perfectly for me so far :-)

Granted, that's a bit extreme, but there is a very real truth to the fact that monk really only shines in a limited number of situations after 3rd level, and those are primarily when you are fighting other humanoids with (or without) class levels. Against a lot of the monsters out there, the monk really underperforms. And unlike most classes, who start dominating the battlefield or seeing marked increases in usefulness at certain benchmarks (Bards and Inquisitors start taking off at 3rd level, the magus starts seeing crits nearly once a round that multiply his spell damage as soon as he picks up a keen weapon or gets Imp. Crit, Rogues can make most moderate skill checks without even rolling by 6th level) the monk follows the steady progression of a fighter, but with even smaller incremental improvements, until he's a good solid 5 points (or more) behind to-hit compared to most other 3/4 BAB classes, and further behind the full BAB guys. At the same time, more and more enemies are gaining access to special movement...

I do not share this point of view. And I have played a vanilla monk through the entire Shackled City campaign up to level 17, and I am playing a monk in Serpent Skull and a monk-fighter mix in another campaign. It's great fun.

If you want to hit better there, just get an amulett or an enchanted weapon. If you just want more damage, play a full-bab class, that's what they are for.

And I have rolled several 19s and 20s in one battle and hit everything, whilst the great full-bab character players rolled no higher than a 4. Sucks, but happens, and to some more often than others. By the logic applied in this thread this would mean that full-bab classes are completely broken and really need some assistance there! :-P

To me, the monk is a package that
1) is survivable
2) can function in most situations and environments
3) does not rely on casting
4) is a great support character
5) is not as strongly tied to a background as many other classes (deities, academy, mindset etc.)

If you really want to fly or have some other special feature, take (improved) eldritch heritage (celestial or draconic or something else) and it you're fine. Or ask your buddy to give you a fly spell. Or get an item.

Finally, you do not need to flurry to be relevant: Even with a medium BAB a javelin or a bow can be quite effective. Attacks of Opportunity also work well enough in most situations. Otherwise there are shuriken and feats that reduce range increments, so I do not really see problems here.

Neo. Not this again, why will monks be ignored? Why will spells not be wasted on trying to take you out? Why will opponents walk around you, allowing attacks of opportunity and flurries? Because enemies all know what monks are, and especially what this char is? The monsters/bandits/opponents do not know all that the monk can do, what they are, that is meta-gaming and it has come up before.

3/4 bab with a +2 from charge, at level 4 an 80ft charge range and a d8 with their bare hands (feet, elbows, whatever). Do you not like longswords or something? Or hands that do longsword damage? :D

Another problem, right at the end. How is unarmed strike "confusing and convoluted"? I am looking at the unarmed damage, their bab and flurry of blows attack bonus right now. Was there something you didn't understand here? Is it convoluted that their damage goes up? Or that flurry uses a different equation to bab?

Of the monk weapons, javelins, crossbows, spears and short swords are good weapons and in the monk proficiencies. How are they awful?

+1

Just played a half-orc rng5/bbn5 with NO special build for flight or anything, and what happened? the BBEG was a winged demon, and there was a bridge, a big chasm and a high ceiling. So, what did I do? Round 1: drink potion of invisibility and drop down to edge of bridge. Round 2: draw and drink potion of fly. Round 3: fly up, hide under bridge. Round 4: wait patiently as rest of party confronts demon, move up behind. Round 5: RAGE, 5' step, full attack with my big ass titan-mauler weapons! Round 6: chase fleeing demon, kill with critical hit.

DEMON treasure for the expenditure of 2 potions. That, and a half-orc barbarian slaughtered a badass demon. Yup. And a fighter can have those exact same 2 potions. No, not a class ability, an "any 10th level can purchase" item.

You missed the central part of this thread: Drinking a potion, accepting a spell from a party member or using a bow is considered to be unfair to the fighter, especially since he cannot be effective with a bow as a secondary weapon when he is a "melee fighter" (a definition and build I still wait to see), he has to be a dedicated archer or otherwise he won't hit. A fighter should be able to do all of that by himself, it shouldn't eat into his WBL.

Edit: Oh, and btw. you missed the point also because you are not using the fighter class which is being heavily criticized here. Barbarians and rangers and such are apparently considered to be fine :-)

Hm, this is becoming another caster vs martial thread...

Still, I want to say something about that "have a scroll ready" and "teleporting out" thing that is always brought up: It does not work. Really. Looks great on paper and may work in some instances, it has maybe once or twice in my last 12 years of RPG. Why? Well...

• wizard example: gets teleport at level 9, can bring three additional creatures with him. Many times I have
  a) been in a party with more than 3 other party members so he would have had to leave someone behind. And if he only saves himself or part of the party, he would have had a big problem with the rest of the party afterwards (if they survive).
  b) Do you never have horses or hirelings or allies or such travelling with you? Because you won't be able to take those with you and lose your gear - or are you carrying your gear on your back even when on horseback or when you have others who can carry it?
  c) Can you really touch all of them in time? Are they all close enough? Not separated by horseback, obstacles, marching order?
  d) Can you always assess a fight whether you should flee right away or maybe in the third round? Because after round 1 the enemy archers (or wizard, or cleric, or goons of the BBEG) will ready on your casting and make sure you will not have time to cast your great save spell.
  e) You always have that spell prepared, right? Oh no, I forgot, you have scrolls ready. How many exactly? They cost a lot of money, you know. Do you really have more than one? Say you have used it once, then it's gone. Do you have time to create another one? Will the party wait, or can they wait in the scenario, for you to write them? Or are you on a mission with a time limit, or in a dangerous area and have to keep moving? And you brought enough parchment, ink etc. with you, right?
  
• Antimagic zones
  
• Wizard is unconscious, blind or such due to trap, surprise attack, harsh environment conditions etc.
  
• dimensional anchor and other spells are cast on you
  
• Pride. This is a big one. Rarely a group of mine has retreated. It took a while for me as a GM to hammer it into them that there are some fights they just can't win.
  
• Responsibility. One party member is down, cannot get to you in time. Might still be alive though - do you escape with the rest or do you switch to fighting mode?
  
• You always have the scrolls ready so you can pull them out and cast them in time, right?
  
• Ever had your spell components pouch sundered? Your arcane bond item or your familiar attacked?
  
• The enemy never does recon on you, even when you are level 12 and already becoming famous?
  
• One of my favourite often brought up scenarios: You are in a dangerous dungeon, the wizard is not prepared adequately. "You just teleport out, swap your spells the next day and come back". Well, then in most cases I know you have probably
  a) encountered enemies and fought them, maybe killed them. That will be discovered and you will then meet an alerted dungeon/castle/etc.
  b) not had time to familiarize yourself with the last/current location, so you can't return there directly, or have a miss chance that is not so great. So you will have to redo challenges.
  

These are just a few of my experiences. In theory it is all great and such. In practice I had it isn't. The more encounters you have, the more the martials shine. I even had a sorcerer of mine fight a lot with weapons (light crossbow, dagger, longspear etc.) to avoid burning my spell slots. Of cause, the martials were better at that, while I was better at magic...
;-)

Oh and btw: I do not think summoners are broken. They are as easily countered and have many - particularly social - problems as other casters :-)

I like your approach :-)
I often reason in a similar way, you spelled it out nicely. Damage is often seen to be the only thing that counts :-/

After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that almost everyone in it is completely insane. This entire thread is based on personal opinion and focused on maybe four of the myriad of talents provided to people.

Funnily most of the people here for some reason think it is hard for a Rogue to get sneak attacks off at higher levels, that all a rogue is good for is finding traps and then even more bizarrely are the folks who think that a rogue should out perform every other damage class all while running, jumping, dodging, fighting and acting like every cliche crappy anime character in the world.

I've been playing rogues or fighter/rogues for quite some time now, granted not in this insanity bred, power gaming fiasco known as PFS but let me assure you if a rogue is played well and the person playing it is even moderately intelligent it will be the party's best friend. There is so much a rogue can do besides damage and trap finding and it's silly to see how many people just do not get it.
...

Oh, don't worry. It happens to pretty much every class. They usually take turns, you know.

I always thought errata was meant to fix bad design.

Well, you *can* use it for that.

Hm, good catch on the ability. here is the text.

Starting at 1st level, a first worlder can cast summon nature’s ally a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. At levels where a summoner would gain a more powerful summon monster spell as a spell-like ability, he instead gains the equivalent summon nature’s ally spell (at 19th level, he can use summon nature’s ally IX or gate). When a first worlder gains a summon nature’s ally spell as a spell-like ability, he adds it to his class spell list (he must still select it as a spell known if he wants to cast it as an actual spell).

This ability otherwise replaces the summon monster ability of a normal summoner.

I think what they meant to write was "This ability otherwise works as the summon monster ability of a normal summoner."

Yeah, that makes it kind of weird overall - the last sentence seems to make no sense :-/

Davor made a lot of good suggestions :-)

Focussing on your eidolon for skills, scouting and magic is really a good thing for a fey summoner. For example, give him use magic device and wands, and you got your backup caster / spell spammer.
You might also want to give it disguise ranks. After all, if you make him humanoid, him being fey-like would probably let him pass rather unnoticed in settlements. This is an RPG advantage that typical eidolons don't have IMO.
Personally, I built an eidolon as a butler for my spoiled rich summoner brat ;-P I gave him ranks in cooking, language skills, some knowledge history and a modern suit to make him look unusual. Just what I did with it, you probably come up with other stuff :-)

Then there are the eidolon and summoning feats.
Summoning:
- Moonlight/sunlight/... summons etc. will help you cut through DR.
- Augment summoning is fantastic
- quicken spell-like ability feat: If it is allowed in PFS, I would definitely look at it. summoning your critters with swift actions is very powerful
- don't forget your summoner: Get him a light crossbow and rapid reload or something similar, or a reach weapon, plus arcane strike and you will have something to do when you are not casting
- your eidolon could also get a reach weapon and just threaten/provide flanking/use the aid another action - all of these are pretty easy, even with a crappy BAB
- improved initiative feat is cool
- remember that you can decide which kind of DR your eidolon gets (alignment or cold iron)
- get items for your summoner and your eidolon
- remember that you have full caster level, just like a bard. So you can make use of items capitalizing on that like arcane blast or crafting feats (though I think I read that they are not allowed in PFS)
- there is a spell called evolution surge or such, use it to apply customizations to your eidolon on the fly
- remember you can adapt your eidolon each time you level up, so don't build something that is useful in 5 levels, build something that is useful now and in the near future
- learn languages and spells like speak with animals if you can to command your nature's allies

I am really not knowledgeable about PFS, so you need to verify validity. But maybe this helps you. :-)

Having looked through many of the threads dealing with AOO I hate to start another one, but a question came up last night that and I cannot find the answer.

Situation: Players round a corner and 40 feet away are two archers. The fighter charges and hits, the remaining archer goes to release his arrow and the player claims an attack of opportunity.

Question: Should an attack of opportunity be allowed? Two rules seem to be in opposition here, namely:

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

and

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity. (Making a ranged attack does provoke an attack of opportunity)

Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.

Thanks for your help!

Yes, AoO occurs.

The rule you quote refers to the extra attacks you gain from a high BAB and the like, AoO are another thing.

The character will become more frail as the levels go up: I would not like to play such character, a blast will kill you even on a save.

If you want to play, toughness is a good starting point. Other than that you will have to buy CON increasing items, and try go get temporary hit points. False life as soon as you can, even better if empowered.

However you will play the squishiest character I've ever seen, try playing with the idea of seeing how far it will survive but be prepared to die.

@OP: Independently from what I said above, this is also true. You will be *really* squishy. Even a merciful fireball, being nonleathal, will kill you. If you put your favored class bonus AND take toughness you just manage to negate the penalties.

If you can change the character, I would suggest you do it. Or prepare a backup character and see how many sessions this one will last. Maybe you could even link their stories, like the backup char being the avenger for the first character :-)

In short:
- Your DM, your group and you together determine what is right. If it's a one-person call, it's the DM's.
- It does not seem overpowered, but more powerful than the standard oracle build IMO. Druids make excellent blasters and get some fantastic debuffs like entangle. Also, though others seem to judge differently, summon nature's ally can be a lot more powerful than summon monster, especially with the recent addition of new feats regarding summoning.

As a social game, the first rule of Pathfinder (or any other RPG) should always be "Don't be a jerk." Any DM that would force a player to try and survive with 2 HP max is breaking that rule. I would refuse to play with such a DM and find a new group to join.

Now I would not go so far here :-)

We do not know the background, what the group is like etc. Maybe all of them have low scores? Maybe they had the option for point-buy or roll and have to go with it? Maybe he is playing a 3pp class with d4 hit die which was agreed on not to upgrade? Maybe the OP likes the character concept or wants to try to make this build work afterall? Maybe he could have assigned that 6 to dex but did not want to for optimization or flavor reasons?

There are too many things we do not know to make such harsh recommendations IMO. The OP provided very little information, so I will just wait for more before making any judgement :-)

Its actually not possible to have 2 hp and 6 con at first level. The lowest hit dice is a d6, which would give you 4 hp at first level. . .

If you roll AND have a racial penalty such as -2 to con and being an elf...

@OP: Regardless how you "achieved" this abmyssal HP count at first level, I would suggest the following:
- Take toughness. NO other feat will be as valuable to you at level 1 as this one.
- If you play with traits, take the resilient trait at the very least.
- Take great fortitude as your next feat. You gotta shore up that crappy fortitude save.
- Get stat boosters, cloaks of rsistance etc.
- Stay ou of melee!
- Read up cover, concealment and 5 foot step rules.
- Consider using a tower shield, even when non proficient. Helps with lots of things.
- Consider dipping into a class with great saves such as monk.
- Go for ranged attacks.

For more I need more info, hope this helps :-)