A phoenix-like familiar.


Homebrew and House Rules


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So... I was kicking around an idea for a phoenix-like familiar. It uses the hawk as a base and steals a few traits from the phoenix. Is it too good for a beginning familiar? If so, should something be cut, or more added and have it be an improved familiar?

*****

Pyre Kite
NG Tiny magical beast (fire)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +14
Aura shroud of flame (5 ft., 1d4 fire, DC 10)

DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +2 size)
hp 6 (1d10); regeneration 1 (cold)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2
Defensive Abilities reincarnation; Immune fire
Weaknesses vulnerable to cold

OFFENSE
Speed 10 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee 2 talons +6 (1d4–2 +1 fire)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st)
At will—detect magic
3/day—flare burst, cure light wounds

STATISTICS
Str 6, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 4, Wis 15, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +2; CMD 10
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Fly +7, Perception +14; Racial Modifier +8 Perception
Languages Ignan

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Reincarnation (Su)
A slain pyre kite remains dead if its body is completely destroyed by an effect such as disintegrate or if it dies within the area of an unhallow or desecrate spell. Otherwise, 1d4 rounds after death, the remains catch fire and burn away, leaving a tiny, ash covered egg. If placed within a fire continuously for 1 week, the pyre kite hatches from the egg and grows to maturity within 24 hours. The pyre kite gains 1 permanent negative level when this occurs, although if restoration is cast upon the creature, it acts as greater restoration, removing this negative level. Interruption of the process resets the amount of time the egg must be immolated to hatch. A pyre kite can be resurrected only once per year in this fashion. If a pyre kite dies a second time before that year passes, its death is permanent. A pyre kite brought back to life by other means never gains negative levels as a result.

Shroud of Flame (Su)
A pyre kite can cause its feathers to burst into fire as a standard action. As long as its feathers are burning, it inflicts an additional point of fire damage with natural attacks, and any creature within 5 ft. must make a DC 10 Reflex save each round to avoid taking 1d4 points of fire damage at the start of its turn. A creature that attacks the phoenix with natural or non-reach melee weapons takes 1d4 points of fire damage (no save) with each successful hit. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Familiar
The master of a pyre kite familiar gains a +3 bonus on heal checks.

Shadow Lodge

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I think you'd be better buffing it a bit and making it an improved familiar


If the pyre kite has only 1 HD, and gains a negative level when raised, wouldn't that cause it to die immediately after returning to life?


double post.


Detect Magic wrote:
If the pyre kite has only 1 HD, and gains a negative level when raised, wouldn't that cause it to die immediately after returning to life?

Yes. Yes it would. *Sigh* For some reason I thought I had changed it to two hit die for that very reason... and yet I didn't.

I suppose it could take the Con damage as raise dead instead.

However, if I wind up adding stuff to make it an improved familiar, a few extra hit dice won't really matter... So, yes. Consider that an error on my part.

Adjusted to 2HD:
Pyre Kite
NG Tiny magical beast (fire)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +14
Aura shroud of flame (5 ft., 1d4 fire, DC 10)

DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +2 size)
hp 11 (2d10); regeneration 1 (cold)
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +2
Defensive Abilities reincarnation; Immune fire
Weaknesses vulnerable to cold

OFFENSE
Speed 10 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee 2 talons +7 (1d4–2 +1 fire)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 2nd)
At will—detect magic
3/day—flare burst, cure light wounds

STATISTICS
Str 6, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 4, Wis 15, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +2; CMD 10
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Fly +7, Perception +14; Racial Modifier +8 Perception
Languages Ignan

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Reincarnation (Su)
A slain pyre kite remains dead if its body is completely destroyed by an effect such as disintegrate or if it dies within the area of an unhallow or desecrate spell. Otherwise, 1d4 rounds after death, the remains catch fire and burn away, leaving a tiny, ash covered egg. If placed within a fire continuously for 1 week, the pyre kite hatches from the egg and grows to maturity within 24 hours. The pyre kite gains 1 permanent negative level when this occurs, although if restoration is cast upon the creature, it acts as greater restoration, removing this negative level. Interruption of the process resets the amount of time the egg must be immolated to hatch. A pyre kite can be resurrected only once per year in this fashion. If a pyre kite dies a second time before that year passes, its death is permanent. A pyre kite brought back to life by other means never gains negative levels as a result.

Shroud of Flame (Su)
A pyre kite can cause its feathers to burst into fire as a standard action. As long as its feathers are burning, it inflicts an additional point of fire damage with natural attacks, and any creature within 5 ft. must make a DC 10 Reflex save each round to avoid taking 1d4 points of fire damage at the start of its turn. A creature that attacks the phoenix with natural or non-reach melee weapons takes 1d4 points of fire damage (no save) with each successful hit. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Familiar
The master of a pyre kite familiar gains a +3 bonus on heal checks.

Unfortunately, I think the next incarnation will be an advanced one.

The Exchange

You are playing with reincarnation and regeneration for a familiar, along with some really nice fire abilities similar to flame shield. I don't know that you really can balance that. I mean even comparing to some of the improved familiars this dude is looking better.
A fire mephit gets fast healing 2 when touching fire, while this dude gets full-on regeneration like a troll and then can still reincarnate if slain. I just don't see how that can be made into a balanced familiar without many more negatives in addition to cold vulnerability.


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It is durable, but not particularly powerful. The other improved familiars are still more attractive in my opinion. A faerie dragon, for example, blows this thing out of the water. Thematically, I think the pyre kite is awesome, but mechanically, I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary, Fake Healer. A couple cure lights and a minor fire shield is hardly overpowered.


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Oh, and I mustn't be the only one reminded of Dumbledore's familiar, Fawkes?


Detect Magic wrote:
Oh, and I mustn't be the only one reminded of Dumbledore's familiar, Fawkes?

Of course not. :D

And Fawkes cried cure poison. It was an at will as long as he was depressed.

Detect Magic wrote:
It is durable, but not particularly powerful. The other improved familiars are still more attractive in my opinion. A faerie dragon, for example, blows this thing out of the water. Thematically, I think the pyre kite is awesome, but mechanically, I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary. . . .

And that is exactly the balance point I was shooting for. Thank you, Detect Magic.


You're much welcome.


I'd still write it up as an improved familiar, simply because an actual magical beast with spell-like powers isn't appropriate as a basic familiar.

As a 2 HD creature with some okay powers, this little guy should be appropriate as a 5th level improved familiar, putting it on par with, say, a carbuncle.


Reminded me of that lighting/sparks spider from bards tale. That could also be a familiar made of lightning.

Shadow Lodge

As a familiar it'll gain HD when the wizard does


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Zhangar wrote:
I'd still write it up as an improved familiar, simply because an actual magical beast with spell-like powers isn't appropriate as a basic familiar.

I almost agree with you here, except all familiars are treated as magical beasts once they become familiars, and they use their master's hit points, saves, and skills.

So in my mind, the real awesomeness of this creature is flavor. Having a tiny bird that's a little on fire is fun. The fact that his abilities mean you don't have to (once per year) pay the money summon another familiar if you screw up once (easy to do at low levels) is nice. He's not going to contribute to battle anymore than a hawk or owl would, whose stats he closely matches. His familiar bonus is less useful than one that grants a save bonus or initiative bonus. Two of three of his spell-likes are things that are typically out of combat. The last, flare burst isn't powerful. He's just relatively survivable, as Detect Magic pointed out.

Zhangar wrote:
As a 2 HD creature with some okay powers, this little guy should be appropriate as a 5th level improved familiar, putting it on par with, say, a carbuncle.

You're right... and yet the carbuncle is a horrible familiar. It takes a feat, gives no bonus aside from a normal familiar, and everything it has is replaced by the fact that it is a familiar.

Except fatal faker... that should be a familiar ability, in the chart right beside deliver touch spells. :D


They become magical beasts once they're empowered as familiar, but entry level familiars are all animals or vermin - creatures that were completely ordinary until a wizard/witch/sorcerer/whatever went "yeah, I want that."

The fire kite has regeneration, fire immunity, a damage aura (little guy can kill off unconscious trolls!), constant detect magic, and cure light wounds 3/day. ANY of those things in of itself makes the little fire bird way too good to be a basic familiar.

Now that I'm looking at it again, my honest suggestion is to give it 1 more hit die, give it something like augury 1/day (cast at 12th level), raise its Int to a 10, and make it a 7th level improved familiar.

If it lost everything but the fire immunity and regeneration it'd probably drop closer to being a level 3 improved familiar (on par with a celestial or fiendish animal).

The nosoi is the only improved familiar (other than the celestial/fiendish animals already mentioned) I'm aware of that actually gives a skill or ability check bonus. Improved familiars normally don't do that.

This is a pretty cool critter - you could even flavor as the "fledgeling" stage of a phoenix's life cycle, and maybe it grows up into a true phoenix after a couple mortal lifetimes or something - but it's not suitable as a basic familiar. As you noticed with the carbuncle, the bar for something requiring Improved Familiar to take is set very low.


I'd allow a good-aligned spellcaster to attract a pyre kite familiar so long as they take "Improved Familiar". I think I'd add continual flame 3/day and restoration 1/day as spell-like abilities, putting it on par with say, an imp, which I consider much more useful--what with the invisibility and wand-wielding.


Aren't all starting familiar just animals that get enhanced?

There's no possible way this thing could be starter as a magical beast, an assortment of magical protections, and even spell like abilities.

That said it'd be good for 3rd or 5th level improved familiar imo. Durable, good scout, light healing, and it can gouge the eyes out of basilisks at critical moments.

The Exchange

Detect Magic wrote:
It is durable, but not particularly powerful. The other improved familiars are still more attractive in my opinion. A faerie dragon, for example, blows this thing out of the water. Thematically, I think the pyre kite is awesome, but mechanically, I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary, Fake Healer. A couple cure lights and a minor fire shield is hardly overpowered.

Do what you want. Why aren't there any other familiars with regeneration and reincarnation? The answer is that those abilities are very hard to make into a balanced option. They are tricky abilities to gauge in the game and that is why the developers don't have familiars with those abilities.

You asked for advice, I gave it. If you want people to just line up and lick your boots while telling you how great your idea is then maybe ask for only yes-man replies.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Eliminate the reincarnation, regeneration, shroud of flame, change the fire immunity to fire resistance, change the cure light wounds to something else, and it just MIGHT be balanced as a 7th level improved familiar.

You're smoking pipe dreams if you think this is balanced as a normal familiar.


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Zhangar wrote:
They become magical beasts once they're empowered as familiar, but entry level familiars are all animals or vermin - creatures that were completely ordinary until a wizard/witch/sorcerer/whatever went "yeah, I want that." . . . .
Beopere wrote:
Aren't all starting familiar just animals that get enhanced? . . .

I don't think I am going to change any minds at this point, and maybe I am just an example of powercreep... but I can't help but think that the animal/vermin restriction on beginning familiars is meaningless.

Selected Familiar Mechanics:
A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. . .
Use the basic statistics for a creature of the familiar's kind, but with the following changes.

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Hit Points: The familiar has half the master's total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.

Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.

Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the familiar's base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will +0) or the master's (as calculated from all his classes), whichever is better. The familiar uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn't share any of the other bonuses that the master might have on saves.

Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.

If you look closely at familiars, both the base animal and vermin options, and most of the improved versions, their hit dice are few enough that most of their numbers come from their master's numbers. Also, since animals and vermin are treated as magical beasts from there on, what's the real difference? With the exception of familiars that can use wands for you, I'm not really seeing anything worth the feat tax.

LazarX wrote:
Eliminate the reincarnation, regeneration, shroud of flame, change the fire immunity to fire resistance, change the cure light wounds to something else, and it just MIGHT be balanced as a 7th level improved familiar. . . .

So a hawk with a fire resistance of 5 and a first level spell-like ability is worth a feat? I've seen some of your other posts Lazar. I like some of your ideas. I cannot, however, see how you can feel a slightly better hawk is worth a feat.

Fake Healer wrote:

. . . I mean even comparing to some of the improved familiars this dude is looking better. . .

. . . You asked for advice, I gave it. If you want people to just line up and lick your boots while telling you how great your idea is then maybe ask for only yes-man replies.

I get the feeling that it's just because many of the improved familiars are just poorly done. But I did ask for advice. And you gave it. I may not agree with it, but thank you for your honest opinion.


A Pyre Kite is a NG creature that may be acquired with the Improved familiar feat by a 7th level or higher arcane caster.

3HD Improved version:
Pyre Kite
NG Tiny magical beast (fire)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +15
Aura shroud of flame (5 ft., 1d4 fire, DC 10)

DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +2 size)
hp 16 (3d10); fast healing 2 (while touching fire)
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +3
Defensive Abilities reincarnation; Immune fire
Weaknesses vulnerable to cold

OFFENSE
Speed 10 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee 2 talons +8 (1d4–2 +1 fire)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 3rd)
At will-detect magic
3/day-flare burst, cure light wounds
1/day-lesser restoration

STATISTICS
Str 6, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 9, Wis 15, Cha 12
Base Atk +3; CMB +2; CMD 12
Feats Weapon Finesse, Hover
Skills Fly +8, Perception +15; Racial Modifier +8 Perception
Languages Ignan

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Reincarnation (Su)
A slain pyre kite remains dead if its body is completely destroyed by an effect such as disintegrate or if it dies within the area of an unhallow or desecrate spell. Otherwise, 1d4 rounds after death, the remains catch fire and burn away, leaving a tiny, ash covered egg. If placed within a fire continuously for 1 week, the pyre kite hatches from the egg and grows to maturity within 24 hours. The pyre kite gains 1 permanent negative level when this occurs, although if restoration is cast upon the creature, it acts as greater restoration, removing this negative level. Interruption of the process resets the amount of time the egg must be immolated to hatch. A pyre kite can be resurrected only once per year in this fashion. If a pyre kite dies a second time before that year passes, its death is permanent. A pyre kite brought back to life by other means never gains negative levels as a result.

Shroud of Flame (Su)
A pyre kite can cause its feathers to burst into fire as a standard action. This effect lasts 1d4+1 rounds, and cannot be activated more than once an hour. As long as its feathers are burning, it inflicts an additional point of fire damage with natural attacks, and any creature within 5 ft. must make a DC 10 Reflex save each round to avoid taking 1d4 points of fire damage at the start of its turn. A creature that attacks the phoenix with natural or non-reach melee weapons takes 1d4 points of fire damage (no save) with each successful hit. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Added a hit die.
Regeneration changed to fast healing.
Added 1/day lesser restoration.
Bumped up intelligence and charisma.
Placed duration on shroud.

(On an unrelated note, I think a feral child human druid with a tiger companion and a ferret or hawk familiar by virtue of eldritch heritage arcane would be nifty... name the character Dar.)


Fake Healer wrote:
Detect Magic wrote:
It is durable, but not particularly powerful. The other improved familiars are still more attractive in my opinion. A faerie dragon, for example, blows this thing out of the water. Thematically, I think the pyre kite is awesome, but mechanically, I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary, Fake Healer. A couple cure lights and a minor fire shield is hardly overpowered.

Do what you want. Why aren't there any other familiars with regeneration and reincarnation? The answer is that those abilities are very hard to make into a balanced option. They are tricky abilities to gauge in the game and that is why the developers don't have familiars with those abilities.

You asked for advice, I gave it. If you want people to just line up and lick your boots while telling you how great your idea is then maybe ask for only yes-man replies.

I didn't make the thing, nor did I ask for advice. I merely gave my opinion in the same way you did.


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As basic it is too powerful.
If you removed the cure light wounds and flare burst plus the alertness feat and skill bonus, I think it would be ok. Then it's something highly unusual with great RP potential, and the detect magic plus ignan speech abilities would allow even nonmagical characters like a fighter with eldritch heritage to profit from it.
As a bonus, if umproved familiar feat was taken it could unlock further abilities :-)


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Sangalor wrote:
As basic it is too powerful.

So I keep hearing. :)

Sangalor wrote:

If you removed the cure light wounds and flare burst plus the alertness feat and skill bonus, I think it would be ok. Then it's something highly unusual with great RP potential, and the detect magic plus ignan speech abilities would allow even nonmagical characters like a fighter with eldritch heritage to profit from it.

As a bonus, if umproved familiar feat was taken it could unlock further abilities :-)

Ok. Alertness is a function of having a familiar, not the familiar itself.

The heal bonus has been removed. Since everyone feels it should be a higher level acquisition, and most improved familiars don't have a +3 skill/+2 save/+? other feature, +3 heal went.

1d8+3 (7.5 avg) three times a day is weak when they come available at 7th level. Parties have been spamming cure light wounds wands for a while at that point.

The -1 that flare burst might grant to up to four targets is, again, not terribly potent at level 1, much less level 7. I have never used, nor do I think I'd ever use, flare burst on caster's I have played or will play.

I now realize I didn't make something clear. I pictured it being able to understand Ignan, but as what is basically a hawk, it wouldn't have the vocal cords to speak. Do you feel that that is unnecessary? Or do you feel that he should actually be able to speak?


As an actual magical beast, it's fine that it's able to speak. Unicorns and phoenixes can, after all. I'm not aware of a 7th level improved familiar that can't speak.

The creature having cure light wounds at that level should be fine.

You should clarify if having Shroud of Flame active counts as touching fire for the fast healing. It's fine if it does, I think.

Flare burst is weak but thematic. You could probably replace it with 1/day pyrotechnics instead.

This thing is strong compared to some familiars at that level, but not too strong. It's better than a silvanshee but not as good as a nosoi or a lyrakien, I think.


Te'Shen wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
As basic it is too powerful.

So I keep hearing. :)

Sangalor wrote:

If you removed the cure light wounds and flare burst plus the alertness feat and skill bonus, I think it would be ok. Then it's something highly unusual with great RP potential, and the detect magic plus ignan speech abilities would allow even nonmagical characters like a fighter with eldritch heritage to profit from it.

As a bonus, if umproved familiar feat was taken it could unlock further abilities :-)

Ok. Alertness is a function of having a familiar, not the familiar itself.

The heal bonus has been removed. Since everyone feels it should be a higher level acquisition, and most improved familiars don't have a +3 skill/+2 save/+? other feature, +3 heal went.

1d8+3 (7.5 avg) three times a day is weak when they come available at 7th level. Parties have been spamming cure light wounds wands for a while at that point.

The -1 that flare burst might grant to up to four targets is, again, not terribly potent at level 1, much less level 7. I have never used, nor do I think I'd ever use, flare burst on caster's I have played or will play.

I now realize I didn't make something clear. I pictured it being able to understand Ignan, but as what is basically a hawk, it wouldn't have the vocal cords to speak. Do you feel that that is unnecessary? Or do you feel that he should actually be able to speak?

I am aware that alertness feat is a feature of the class, not familiar. But I consider it too strong even with that. So you can add some text stating that because of the brightness of the familiar a slight distraction occurs, negating the bonus to perception granted by the alertness feat.

CLW is not easily available for L1 characters, so it is too powerful.
The offensive flare burst is also not something other familiars have.
Not spending money when loosing your familiar, effectively negating the need to be careful in combat with it, is already really powerful.

The changes I suggested would make it bearable for L1. Any more and you're immediately in improved familiar territory.

But that's my opinion - do in your home games whatever works for you :-)


Sangalor wrote:

. . .

CLW is not easily available for L1 characters, so it is too powerful.
The offensive flare burst is also not something other familiars have.
Not spending money when loosing your familiar, effectively negating the need to be careful in combat with it, is already really powerful....

As far as I can tell, cure light wounds is available to seven different character classes out of 22 at level 1 (roughly 1/3). As a first level spell, it is possibly one of the more common scrolls or potions to pick up at low level adventuring, and costs roughly 25gp for clerics, druids, oracles, bards, paladins, and rangers to manufacture, given they have scribe scroll, or say a wizard has scribe scroll and one of the others who can cast it deigns to help.

As to offensive burst, I thought a possible -1 to an enemy or four was a fair and flavorful ability, rather than only being used for a possible +2 on a skill check, or a +2 to AC or to hit verses one opponent if a small familiar.

Not spending the money to revive a familiar, once a year, is a possible cost savings if you screw up. Once. It also takes one day longer to come back than actually summoning another familiar if there isn't an interruption.

Of course this does get me in the mind to create a non-magical survivor which may or may not be related to real world analogs.

The Crusty Buzzard:

Crusty Buzzard

N Tiny animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +10

DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 14, flat-footed 13 (+2 Dex, +1 natural, +2 size)
hp 8 (1d8+4); Rapid Metabolism
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2

OFFENSE
Speed 10 ft., fly 50 ft. (average)
Melee 2 talons +0 (1d4–2), Poison
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.

STATISTICS
Str 6, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 9
Feats Toughness
Skills Fly +6, Perception +10, Stealth +10; Racial Modifier +4 Perception +4, +4 Stealth

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Poison (Ex)
Contact; save Fort DC 11; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d2 Con damage; cure 1 save

Rapid Metabolism (Ex)
A crusty buzzard heals a number of hit points per day equal to the standard healing rate + double its Constitution bonus. It heals even if it does not rest. This healing replaces its normal natural healing. If tended successfully by someone with the Heal skill, it instead regains double the normal amount of hit points + double its Constitution bonus.

Familiar
The master of a crusty buzzard familiar gains a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves.

ECOLOGY
Environment often temperate or warm deserts.
Organization single or nest (2–4)
Treasure none

Yes. This does create a familiar that a caster does not want to have contact with...


Te'Shen wrote:
Sangalor wrote:

. . .

CLW is not easily available for L1 characters, so it is too powerful.
The offensive flare burst is also not something other familiars have.
Not spending money when loosing your familiar, effectively negating the need to be careful in combat with it, is already really powerful....

As far as I can tell, cure light wounds is available to seven different character classes out of 22 at level 1 (roughly 1/3). As a first level spell, it is possibly one of the more common scrolls or potions to pick up at low level adventuring, and costs roughly 25gp for clerics, druids, oracles, bards, paladins, and rangers to manufacture, given they have scribe scroll, or say a wizard has scribe scroll and one of the others who can cast it deigns to help.

...

You are gaining the ability *for free*. Daily. Every day you save money - if you even could use a scroll with your class without fail - and you are much more self-sufficient. If you are a wizard, you do not need a healer, because you have your familiar. So the comparison as to how many classes have CLW available is irrelevant. Only classes that get a familiar at level 1 *and* can cast CLW are of relevance to this. Only the witch comes to my mind, and even that character would certainly reserve 1 of her daily precious spell slots for something else than a CLW.

I don't know what kind of games you play, but if you look at what level 1 characters have available according to the core rule book for starting wealth, that's maybe something you can pay once for, but not every day. And seriously: Would you as a wizard buy a scroll of cure light wounds which you may or may not be able to use, or equipment that you can use?

Also, if your familiar participates in battle I as a GM would immediately be treating it as any other member of the group and attack it if the situation warrants it. All other GMs I have played with and play with now treat it the same way. So usually players really ponder using their familiar in battle because losing it costs you dearly. If you have an almost instantly reviving familiar there is almost no risk attached to it any more, so this alone is very unbalancing.

Again if it works for you fine. I consider this way too powerful.


Sangalor wrote:
You are gaining the ability *for free*. Daily. Every day you save money - if you even could use a scroll with your class without fail - and you are much more self-sufficient. If you are a wizard, you do not need a healer, because you have your familiar. So the comparison as to how many classes have CLW available is irrelevant. Only classes that get a familiar at level 1 *and* can cast CLW are of relevance to this. Only the witch comes to my mind, and even that character would certainly reserve 1 of her daily precious spell slots for something else than a CLW. . . .

The witch also gets the hex that heals and she can use on a character once a day... on as many different people as she wants.

It's been a while since I played in a group that didn't have some form of extra healing. It doesn't have to be the cleric with spontaneous cures. Sometimes its the fellow with a just a better than average wisdom modifier for saves and a trait that makes heal a class skill.

Sangalor wrote:
I don't know what kind of games you play, but if you look at what level 1 characters have available according to the core rule book for starting wealth, that's maybe something you can pay once for, but not every day. And seriously: Would you as a wizard buy a scroll of cure light wounds which you may or may not be able to use, or equipment that you can use?

Indubitably. One of the first things that we used to do with an ex-gaming group was to pool the left over starting gold and try and get a few cure items. Yes the cleric or druid hung on to them. If we could swing a wand, Awesome. If not, crafting a few scrolls for backup was one of the first things we tried to manage.

Granted the group I play with now doesn't do this, but we also die a lot more... which makes since. The group I play with now plays their characters in a much more disposable/foolhardy fashion.

Sangalor wrote:
Also, if your familiar participates in battle I as a GM would immediately be treating it as any other member of the group and attack it if the situation warrants it. All other GMs I have played with and play with now treat it the same way. So usually players really ponder using their familiar in battle because losing it costs you dearly. If you have an almost instantly reviving familiar there is almost no risk attached to it any more, so this alone is very unbalancing.

Most of the DMs I've played with operate the same way. There is still a risk. How often do you think the pyre kite will come back in this way? Do you not have more than one battle a year? I was working under the generally agreed upon four encounters per day, sometimes three to eight if your dm runs a lot of smaller ones. When I have a familiar, I don't normally use him for anything but an advisor (skill aid and role play tool). If you never use your familiar to deliver a touch spell, you can still have your little buddy die from one bad reflex save or worse. The resurrection ability works ONCE A YEAR, just like the real phoenix, only with less nearly instant awesomeness.

I... I again don't get why a familiar who has mostly defensive, reactive abilities is seen as so powerful. But then again, I do run with a mostly alpha strike group these days, when we get to play. I accept the criticism so far, and even agree that your rationals are valid, even though I disagree with how fundamentally powerful people are seeing this familiar to be. I think I am done tinkering with pyre kites as such.

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