"Champion is a Better Guardian"


Guardian Class Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For those of you saying that "the Champion class fulfills the Guardian's role of tank better," just wait until Player Core 2 drops.

Paizo has been known to reduce the power and capability of existing content in order to increase sales of new content once on a while.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if something like that happened between these two classes.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Paizo has been known to reduce the power and capability of existing content in order to increase sales of new content once on a while.

... what? When?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Player Core 1 absolutely did not do this either; as a matter of fact the remaster I think significantly improved a lot of the classes featured there. Unless there's some recent controversy I'm completely unaware of, I don't see any reason to expect Paizo to nerf a class that is largely seen as balanced. Rather, I think the class is likely to instead just have all of their alignment-based mechanics eased into the holy/unholy, no-alignment remaster, and their alignment-based subclass restrictions relaxed as well. If the current evil Champion causes could receive a little more feat support as well, that'd be lovely, but otherwise I have plenty of trust in Paizo to handle the Champion perfectly fine.


I had a similar thought but I am also hopeful and trust Paizo.


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None of the classes in Player Core 1 were meaningfully nerfed, even some of the absolute powerhouses in PF1 like Fighter, Bard, Rogue, and Druid.

I don't think "nerf the remastered class" is even a viable option, since if the legacy one is better than the remaster one, the solution will just be to use the legacy one since they're compatible.

Like the points of comparison between the classes are things like "the Champion has some of the stuff I want on the Champion, like "a reaction that punishes an enemy for attacking my ally" and "ample self-healing." Like it feels weird that the Guardian's defensive abilities of "reduce your own defense to make you a more attractive target" and "take damage for your buddy" are more selfless than anything the Champion gets.


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Paizo buffed classes that absolutely didn't need improvements, like Rogues and Fighters. I can't see them dropping the nerf hammer on beloved and established classes for the sake of a new one.


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I would be very surprised if Champion got nerfed in PC2. Also, I'd be very surprised if Guardian didn't get buffed some in the final release version of that class.


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Ravingdork wrote:

For those of you saying that "the Champion class fulfills the Guardian's role of tank better," just wait until Player Core 2 drops.

Paizo has been known to reduce the power and capability of existing content in order to increase sales of new content once on a while.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if something like that happened between these two classes.

The only nerf I'd like to see to Champion is to make their stuff harder to steal via an archetype.


Teridax wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Paizo has been known to reduce the power and capability of existing content in order to increase sales of new content once on a while.

... what? When?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Player Core 1 absolutely did not do this either; as a matter of fact the remaster I think significantly improved a lot of the classes featured there. Unless there's some recent controversy I'm completely unaware of, I don't see any reason to expect Paizo to nerf a class that is largely seen as balanced. Rather, I think the class is likely to instead just have all of their alignment-based mechanics eased into the holy/unholy, no-alignment remaster, and their alignment-based subclass restrictions relaxed as well. If the current evil Champion causes could receive a little more feat support as well, that'd be lovely, but otherwise I have plenty of trust in Paizo to handle the Champion perfectly fine.

I agree. I see no reason to designers to nerf the champions. Instead is the opposite the currently compatibility errata burst them a bit. They simplified its anathemas only.

Instead we maybe get some improvements into Liberator and or Redeemer once these classes are currently underused in comparison to Paladin.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

None of the classes in Player Core 1 were meaningfully nerfed, even some of the absolute powerhouses in PF1 like Fighter, Bard, Rogue, and Druid.

I don't think "nerf the remastered class" is even a viable option, since if the legacy one is better than the remaster one, the solution will just be to use the legacy one since they're compatible.

Like the points of comparison between the classes are things like "the Champion has some of the stuff I want on the Champion, like "a reaction that punishes an enemy for attacking my ally" and "ample self-healing." Like it feels weird that the Guardian's defensive abilities of "reduce your own defense to make you a more attractive target" and "take damage for your buddy" are more selfless than anything the Champion gets.

Unfortunately that wasn't the case of Wizard but its nerf is way more like a side effect than an intentional nerf.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Teridax wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Paizo has been known to reduce the power and capability of existing content in order to increase sales of new content once on a while.

... what? When?

I'd like Ravingdork to answer this too. Right now the original post reads like a tabloid headline. Insubstantiated rumor mongoring.


WatersLethe wrote:
Teridax wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Paizo has been known to reduce the power and capability of existing content in order to increase sales of new content once on a while.

... what? When?

I'd like Ravingdork to answer this too. Right now the original post reads like a tabloid headline. Insubstantiated rumor mongering.

Back in PF1 times, I know the Scarred Witch Doctor mysteriously lost its Constitution Dependent feature that allowed it to use Con to cast spells right before the Kineticist came out.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
graystone wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Teridax wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Paizo has been known to reduce the power and capability of existing content in order to increase sales of new content once on a while.

... what? When?

I'd like Ravingdork to answer this too. Right now the original post reads like a tabloid headline. Insubstantiated rumor mongering.
Back in PF1 times, I know the Scarred Witch Doctor mysteriously lost its Constitution Dependent feature that allowed it to use Con to cast spells right before the Kineticist came out.

That was definitely one example.


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Was it mysterious or did they just not want a Con-based full caster after seeing how it shook out? Kineticist isn't the same as the scarred witch doctor. Do you have anything more concrete than that? Anything that doesn't demand an industrial amount of tinfoil?


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I think in the end "not giving Orcs penalties to every single mental stat" is a better solution to what the scarred witch doctor was trying to accomplish than the actual scarred witch doctor.


What do you think truly about this? Is the Tenets of Good Champiosn too good vs Guardian while the Tenets of Evil are...well not Guardian enoughj outside the one that gives half level DR....Why that one exists is, weird.


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Ravingdork wrote:

For those of you saying that "the Champion class fulfills the Guardian's role of tank better," just wait until Player Core 2 drops.

Paizo has been known to reduce the power and capability of existing content in order to increase sales of new content once on a while.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if something like that happened between these two classes.

This is probably the dumbest ending out there.

People are tacking on Free Archetype / Ancestral Paragon to all their games because they are dissatisfied with current power budgets, and you are proposing we end up with lower power levels?

When the Fighter got even stronger?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

At times I wish we got a downvote button. This was a tabloid level post with no basis in 2E reality.

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