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I gm a Pathfinder Society game every Saturday. Sooner or later, I expect one of my players will come to the table with a gunslinger character.
I was reading through the UC to familiarize myself with the class and I came across this deed. I don’t understand it.
“Gunslinger Initiative (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains the following benefits. First, she gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. Furthermore, if she has the Quick Draw feat, her hands arefree and unrestrained, and the firearm is not hidden, she can draw a single firearm as part of the initiative check.”
Page 11 Ultimate combat.
I don’t understand this “Deed”. Please could someone explain it to me? I’m confused.
Here is what the core rule-book has to say about initiative and the flow of time.
Combat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence: 1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative. 2.Determine which characters are aware of their
opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
3. After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to begin the first normal round of combat.
4. Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest). 5. When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps
3 and 4 repeat until combat ends.
Initiative
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order
Pathfinder rule book page 178.
Thank you
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I do not understand your question, the deed is pretty straight forward as long as the player has at least 1 unspend grit in thier pool they get +2 initiative and can quick draw a weapon during the initative roll as long as they have the quick draw feat. If you are asking how can you figure out who draws a weapon first in the case of multipul people having this deed I do not see how the order would effect combat, but I would just go by who ever has the highest Initative bonus for that if it was required.
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If she has Quick Draw and at least 1 unspent grit point, she can draw one non-concealed firearm at the moment when initiative is rolled, before anyone else acts. She then checks for surprise and rolls initiative (with a +2 bonus) to find out when she can take her actions.
As Nimon said, it's not obvious what practical difference this makes in combat, unless she can do something with her firearm before her turn comes up. It is possible she's not flat-footed because she has taken an action. She could still be surprised and unable to act, even though she's reflexively drawn her weapon.
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From my understanding, an initiative roll determines the sequence in which people get to act. you can't act during your initiative roll, because that roll by its definition is determining when you act.
There are plenty of mechanisms already in place to get a high initiative roll, such as the reactionary trait, improved initiative, quick draw, Look out, a high dex etc. Heck in PFS you can even use a faction shirt to do a re roll once a session.
I guess I don't get how you can do something, before initiative is even determined. Even with a surprise round, I still do initiative first so after the surprise round, we can go into a regular round.
I guess my answer is in the text.
I am just trying to figure out some of these things, so I can anticipate some problems and "head trouble off at the pass".
As a rule of thumb, which rules do I follow if there is a contradiction? Do i follow the Core rule book, or an optional expansion book like the Ultimate combat?
Thank you
You need to decide if the contradiction is an actual contradiction or if it is meant to be an exception of the rule.
For example, characters cannot draw weapons when it is not their turn. Gunslinger's Initiative is an ability that allows characters to do just that. It doesn't mean that Gunslinger's Initiative is a contradiction to the rule, but an exception.
You also favour optional systems (like Armor as DR) over the core if you choose to implement them.
The way my group handles it is to make surprise rounds a little different. The only people who can roll initiative in a surprise round are those who are aware and allowed to act. Other characters get to roll once the first normal round starts. This means a gunslinger who is aware can "autodraw" on the surprise if he's aware, but waits until the beginning of the first round otherwise. After all, initiative isn't important in the surprise round unless you can act.
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Well if I was running a home game instead of a PFS organized play game, I wouldn't even allow gunslingers nor guns, because as a matter of taste, I prefer not to have them in my "sword and sorcery" game.
But when running an "organized play" game you give up some elements of control, such as deciding what materiel you allow in your game or not.
I just trying to get a handle on the gunslinger.
Tobias you make some good points.
To me the gunslinger initiative seems like a contradiction to the core rules. I suspect it is ripe for abuse, but I am not yet sure how.
Anyways, I will continue to read the rules, and familiarize myself with them.
thanks for all of your posts.
To me the gunslinger initiative seems like a contradiction to the core rules. I suspect it is ripe for abuse, but I am not yet sure how.
It means he can break normal rules and draw when you roll Init instead on his turn.
Not a big benefit, but decent.
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To me the gunslinger initiative seems like a contradiction to the core rules. I suspect it is ripe for abuse, but I am not yet sure how.
It means he can break normal rules and draw when you roll Init instead on his turn.
Not a big benefit, but decent.
They can't be caught flat-footed during an ambush if they have Quick Draw... which I think you can do with a feat anyway (actually better, since it stipulates you can never be caught flat-footed rather than if you have a weapon to draw and do so).
Can't think of any other mechanical benefit.
It is possible she's not flat-footed because she has taken an action.
It's not an action, it's part of the check.
Flat-footed: "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed."
It's a +2 to init (just like Reactionary trait) and you have a gun in hand instead of in a holster.
Bob is walking around with a holstered gun. He has a grit point and Gunslinger Initiative.
Susan is walking around with her gun in her hand. (brandishing!) She has no grit points, but does have the Reactionary trait.
When the goblins ambush them, they are both in the exact same state: Init rolled (at +2) and gun in hand. Both flat-footed until they act.
In and of itself, the Gunslinger's Initiative deed is pretty minor.
However, the deed effectively gives you the benefit (with Quick Draw) of carrying your weapon in hand for combat without actually needing to have it in hand at all times. Depending on your surroundings (in a town where holding a drawn weapon gets you negative attention, navigating terrain requiring you to climb or otherwise use your hands, etc.) or in conjunction with other abilities (i.e., Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes/Uncanny Dodge to make attacks of opportunity before your turn in the initiative order), it can be a major benefit.
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SRT4W, Perhaps I can be of some help. Lets start by expanding the rather narrow set of quotations which cover three words to encompass the full sentence those three words were in.
“I suspect it is ripe for abuse, but I am not yet sure how.”
“I suspect” isn’t really a statement of fact, but of suspicion.
I am afraid I cannot furnish you with an example because I am not sure how a cheese weasel of a player will find an unintended combination of feats etc. to squeeze extra actions attacks in etc. who knows….I am suspicious of the deed.
I don’t think my statement was over the top. I simply have expressed that I am a bit confused and suspicious of this new materiel. I have also admitted that guns and gunslingers as a matter of taste, I would prefer not to have in a home game.
I am taking a look at the rules, so I can better understand them.
Starbuc II thank you your assessment makes sense.
Areteas, both you and Grick bring up a very interesting question.
Since Deed: gunslinger’s initiative allows you to draw a gun while you are rolling for initiative, is it an action? If it is, does this have consequences for being caught Flat footed? If it isn’t what does that mean?
Hmm this will take some chewing over.
Again thank you for your posts
It is possible she's not flat-footed because she has taken an action.It's not an action, it's part of the check.
Flat-footed: "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed."
It's a +2 to init (just like Reactionary trait) and you have a gun in hand instead of in a holster.
Bob is walking around with a holstered gun. He has a grit point and Gunslinger Initiative.
Susan is walking around with her gun in her hand. (brandishing!) She has no grit points, but does have the Reactionary trait.When the goblins ambush them, they are both in the exact same state: Init rolled (at +2) and gun in hand. Both flat-footed until they act.
For whatever it is worth, this is the way I interpret it. Nice bit of fluff to go with a +2 initiative. Miss Fire, the gunslinger, has practiced so much drawning her gun at the least provacation, it now has become the natural responce to any provacation. Even beyond the point of her being able to actually aim and shoot yet.
Greg
PS: Miss Fire ...GAWD! I made myself smile.
Not an action since its part of your Inititave role which isn't an action. Its a reaction you sense a threat and your muscle memory kicks in an subconciously you have your gun in hand ready to defend yourself.
Also since this is the rules forum can we try to keep the pro/anti gun out of it.
I don't see what the big deal is. It's an ability that lets you begin battle with your weapon in your hand (and gives a +2 to initiative). I don't see how it's any different mechanically (or "ripe for abuse") than, you know, just always having your gun drawn.