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Sorry, 2 questions:
- how does the value of desperate wrath feel for a grapple build? considering that furious bully and the usual off-guard woul provide similar circunstancial bonuses. Is the outside cases common enough in your experience?
- how would you circumvent the action management with a shield? What builds could/couldn't afford the use of it?

Take your time, your guide helped me a fair bit when made my first animal barbarian so I know it will be great. Thanks for the heads-up on the live updates.

We are coming close to the arrival of the PC2 changes, is there a chance we get some updated build examples in the guide? If rumors are true, some of the class and archetype changes are quite earthshaking.

Really hope that this new set of changes bring a n opportunity to update some class rules, particularly witches and champions.

The one thing i could see as an argument for this is the fact that:

1) a bigger mount means that you could body block a specific area where the enemy can’t move easily because of the need of using tumble through. I, however, have no clue how valuable is that.

2) A small mount would be agile to move in many places due its size, but while the cover part of Mounted Defenses is hard to make a solid asseveration about the line "you have lesser cover against attacks targeting you when you’re mounted if the mount would be in the way" i think you have even less reasons to give this bonus to a small creature.

Does that reasons make justification for the medium 5x5 vs large 4x4? I don’t think so, but maybe Paizo made these oddities in relation between each other and a solution might be in there.

Giving us cecaelias first lets us troubleshoot basically all of the problems with centaurs.

Unlike horses, octopodes are great at both climbing and squeezing.

I have a new, more urgent, ancestry craving, that looks dope!

For me the prospect of a dog race (no, the Shoony dont conunt, they are the pug race) a monkey race as the Charau-ka, and a centaur race are my wishes.

Isn't there a build using the demonic sorcerer dedication, right? Was looking into making an evil take of a half velstrac using the glutton's jaw. I think i have something and was trying to have an extra reference.

Probably just a mistake on my part. Furious Vengeance is a level 18 feat, and was just taken as a nice to have. It's not important to any of the builds, I'll swap in Brutal Critical instead.

That clarify it well. Any idea how the wrestler dedication fits for a build? Would it be worth? In any case thanks for the answer.

small question: was there a point in time where the "Furious Vengeance" was a feat widouth the Prerequisite of being fury instinct? in the example builds it is present for other instincts, i wanted to be sure what happened there.

How are you taking monk archetype feats like Flurry without taking Monk Dedication in there, anywhere? This seems to be wrong.

I omitted the racial part, but it considered a human ancestry with the multitalented feat, sorry for forgetting to add at least that.

I wanted a second opinion for this build i have, I like the idea of the wrestler dedication but im unsure how would work on the final levels and most importantly I dont know if the feat order is good or if it have some kind of avoidable redundancy, The Acrobat dedication must stay, that is a condition for me.

1.- Raging intimidation / -
2.- Acute Vision / Wrestler Dedication
4.- Ragin Athlete / Combat Grab
6.- Animal Skin / Suplex
8.- Attack of Opportunity / Acrobat Dedication
10.- Terrifting Howl / Monk's Flurry
12.- Predator Pounce / Whirling Throw
14.- Furious Bully / Monk Moves
16.- Monk)Perfections Path(reflex)/ Inescapable Grasp
18.- Brutal Critical / Spinebreaker
20.- Unstoppable Juggernaut/ Strangle

Any suggestion is accepted, the general idea is there, but i need aid to fine tune it.

I’m also a novice on the system but i think i can give you some insight to your situation.

First a Ranger, sorcerer and cleric do sound like a good group, your friends have single target and area damage roles, your cleric and the sorcerer can pick some healing spells, and the ranger can heal if invested in the medicine skill, the one thing missing is a proper frontline, someone that give the enemy a reason to think “maybe dive face first is a terrible idea” that is why the logical solution is for you to swap into a champion:

1-They have natural heavy armor (and get a lot of AC in comparison of the other classes) and hp that make them more resilient.

2-Your ranger being ranged lose some damage in exchange of ease to deal damage and positioning, adding a martial class can make the damage numbers be better in your team to face enemies with more ease.

3-The champion still has some healing capacities, so while you are not the most prominent healer you could, you do hold some healing skills while providing something better for them via removing menaces faster.

A cleric isn’t meant to be a “tank” (aka someone with skill to pressure, disable and withstand damage), if you get a sentinel dedication you can be a hard to remove healer, but the fragility of the class doesn’t address the lack of a frontline capable to represent a non-ignorable menace to give safety to your teammates.
Keep in mind that other martials could fill the role, but for your initial composition is possible that the other characters didn’t invested in healing skills so the best fit is someone self-sufficient and useful as the champion.

Part of the idea is to make a frontline charger, diving first with no fear against enemies while being capable do crush and maim them while moving, grabbing the attention of them.

As a lose idea i was looking to be able to use the roll with it feat to my favour, if he pushes me away i can easily charge back in, if he push me in middle of the enemies that should be something I can abuse too, so things like barreling charge, or a similar that allow me to harm many enemies (bonus if it can be done while moving), could be a good idea for this.

Another option was to use a mount with the rough rider to get some movement from a medium size mount, while being unimpaired by heavy armor speed penalty, if that is the route to take, movement is important for this idea to get in the face of the enemy.

For this idea I'm not looking for that much reach, the spirit of it is to get into someone's face and use some bludgeoning force to smash some skulls with momentum.

If anyone have some ideas, please let me know, i would be thankful.

In the world of logic i would say that Terrifying howl make sense that there is some interaction with intimidating glare: fear is a natural response to dangerous situations, and even before a language was established it worked for some animals, but you need to associate it to someone or something scary,or you would be demoralized from a chihuahua?

If they see you as a hulking murder machine or a master unbeatable fencer is more easy to break someone's confidence.

Both feats work together because they interact with the demoralize action, and tbh, even if a hound or a hyena could sound scarry, they couldn't be as frightening as the silent image of the chupacabras IRL.

At least that is how I see this working.

Thanks guys for the considerations you made me notice, particularly that documents you provided Gortle, there is a lot of things that need to be addressed, but i think i can make some deductions on my own.

Thanks to all that added to this.

I have some confusions with the way wild shape with with other classes feats, this is some understanding i have:

You could wild shape while in rage? It seems like yes, but it is hard for me to see if the damage of the rage, or any of the benefits of it, would apply to the new unarmed attacks because how some statistics are replaced, also the line for polymorph says: "the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties".

Now another thing that make me confused is the line for the attacks "which are the only attacks you can use", this means that you can't use things like the monk stances that grant new strikes,but also the animal instinct new natural weapon, the polymorph and morph tags don't put limits for each other on a strict way, so a DM could allow some possibility of interaction, but that line forbid it.

Finally i wonder what limits there are to use actions with the natural attack, can it use flurry of blows? Furious finish? Which ones work and how to tell? (Maybe it can't have the "wield a weapon" requirement?).

How this interactions work? And what options could make the wild shape work better? If someone can answer this doubts i have i would be thankful.

One thing to note is that clumsy doesn't affect dex. It just imposes a -1 status penalty to AC. So it doesn't matter what your dex is, clumsy will always impose the penalty even if your dex is above the cap.

Oh you are right, somehow I understood that it also reduced dexterity, thanks for that one nicholas.

Will end with 18 dexterity and 16 on charisma to make it more like a bruiser tracker than a stealth ops one, i think Gortle's idea do make better fit for the character itself, so i will tweak the build a little bit on my own and leave the stealth on trained only. Thanks for the recommendations everyone.

Will start saying that the 3 action gameplay is quite good for flexibility... But when it come to the multiple attack penalty, it incentives you to make different actions that in most cases in unaware.

Is the only option a barbarian have to be intimidating? It could explain why they have raging intimidation, is quite good, but doesn't present an alternative to being loud and scary as far as I see. And you saying that the aid action is so weak i guess is not going to come from the untrained/featless options.

I will take your recommendation for the stats, the idea of 18 dex is to avoid a -2 ac drop when clumsy, but some other things can be more useful in the long run against a circunstancial problem.

I presented the other alternative as a discussion base option, is a lil rushed if I'm honest, but wanted to know what options arises from its presence. I assume you are not a fan of neither of them, but would like to know why. Maybe being sneaky is to ambitious and working it first could be an idea, but what about survival? Is it ok to delay it for a tracker?

You guys are giving me some options to think, and sadly I'm still confused (maybe this is why ppl don't jump to PF2e as fast as with 5e, that one is dumb as heck but far easier... But tbh i hate it's limitations) I don't demand anyone to help here, but if someone is still willing to give some pointers with more elaboration, I'm absolutely thankful for your assistance.

Definitely swapping a little of the stat allocation, but do you have an opinion of what should be dropped in exchange Gortle? What would be the skill to remove in favour of intimidation and what feats would be taken down to support the build? That is my biggest problem, because at the end i can't have everything and since I'm so new to the system I'm unsure what would be ok to drop in favour of the tools without hurting the concept of a bounty hunter. Forgot to add, it's for a long journey.

I think you have a point citricking, the more i see it is more obvious the drawbacks of intimidate unless build specifically for it on a barbarian... A shield and the natural high AC of an animal instinct barbarian can make a world of a difference in defense, and i could make use of the help action, forcing an enemy into an impasse between an opportunity attack or a crit fail from an ally effect. Just unsure how to make good use of the stealth outside of initiative if posible (although a +2 if enabled is kinda good to make some good hits when it counts the most).

considering that suggestions from breithauptclan and Gortle im doing some changes, what about this?

Stats at 20
Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha => 22/18/20/12/18/14

1. sudent charge(retrain to raging intimidation at 12), deer animal selection
2. acrobat dedication/ quick jump
3. fleet
4. raging athlete/cat fall
5. general training (toughness)
6. powerful leap/ animal skin
7. titan wrestler
8. Attack of Oportunity/kip up
9. multitalented (monk)
10. monk's flurry/wall jump
11. Intimidating Prowess
12. terrifying resistance/ predator’s pounce
13. advanced general training (battle cry)
14. quick climber/whirlwind strike
15. canny acumen: Reflex
16. cloud jump/silencing strike
17. die hard (or battle cry?)
18. Legendary guide/brutal critical
19. numb to death (die hard)
20. unstoppable juggernaut

This swaps the skill priority for legendary rank to Athletics>survival>intimidation, and leaving sneak to trained, leave out the shield block for the reaction to be used for aid actions, opportunity attacks and battlecry if used, intimidation is worked from the point flurry of blows is unlocked and giving more freedom of actions, while keeping the survival to be a tracker as intended.

Not a fan of losing the dark vision on rage, the Strepsirrhini are nocturnal animals and only in the old ages they were diurnal, it is possible, just like a tracking hound doesn’t need other senses than his smelling to do great work, but not sure how bad it is (Little edit, the smelling sense is a MUST, the species are known for their great sense of smell).

Since we are reaching legendary for intimidation (alas little late) battle cry is an idea to embrace the more war maiden side of this, but is it ok to delay diehard and discard numb to death? it could be life-saving, and that feats have synergy with unstoppable juggernaut, but they are passive defences vs a more active for of damage mitigation: killing the enemies first, so maybe is better?

Stats
at 1:
Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha => 18/14/14/10/12/10
at 20:
Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha => 22/20/20/10/18/12

Race: Human/beastkin (imprecise smell) Background: bounty hunter Class: barbarian, animal instinct

Skills Legendary: athletics, acrobatics, stealth, survival
Trained: lore, medicine, nature(at 9)

Feats and skills by level:

1. sudent charge(retrain to acute vision), deer animal selection
2. acrobat dedication/ quick jump
3. fleet
4. raging athlete/cat fall
5. general training (shield block)
6. powerful leap/ animal skin
7. titan wrestler
8. Attack of Oportunity/kip up
9. multitalented (monk)
10. monk's flurry/swift sneak
11. toughness
12. foil senses/ predator’s pounce
13. advanced general training (die hard)
14. quick climber/whirlwind strike
15. canny acumen: Reflex
16. cloud jump/silencing strike
17. Numb to death
18. Legendary sneak/brutal critical
19. Legendary guide
20. unstoppable juggernaut

Thought process:

The idea of the character is to be a Strepsirrhini primate (lemur like) hybrid, animals that are great at jumping, and have an uncanny sense of smell; she is meant to be skilled on tracking, stalking and taking down targets with the aggressive attitude of a honey badger, the deer selection is to re-flavour it as a spear like tail similar to the “Magnamalo” from "Monster hunter Rise".

Skill raising was meant to assist the concept of the beast, while the acrobat dedication was taken to aid the balancing on branches and similar (cat fall and kip up are some add on for a nimble creature to make use of the acrobatics progression), but since that is the only use maybe I’m underusing the feat. Sneak is to gain some position advantage in some cases (or rescue someone captive/finda and eliminate a key enemy if a frontal fight is too dumb, while aiding the stalker side of the character) and initiative boost if it can be used for it, maybe there is more to it but I dont know it yet.

No intimidation because of the stat selection, inspired on cats, apes and badgers from the bestiary, so I’m unsure if the lack of demoralizing is significant, apes do have intimidation and it could be a good way to reflect the inner badger of the character, but not sure if the drop on wisdom is good idea (being good with its senses to track criminals and kidnapers is important and is more important for this char to let the screaming to the preys).

Beastkin is great for the appearance and the senses… but the feats are not good, even some of them have problems to add to the barbarian! The transformation feats don’t add anything to the barbarian, not only have minor clash with the character idea, but it doesn’t even allow to use the rage weapon nor rage damage, so that is awful in its own right, Animal swiftness feels interesting, but climbing is already achieved from lvl 15 with quick climb or 4 with raging athlete, and I’m unsure that is worth for 5ft of speed (that is me being new to the system speaking, if someone know something that I’m missing, feel free to tell me).

If someone have ideas to correct in the build (maybe bad order of what level I’m getting each thing) feel free to tell me, and thanks in advance.