So my players have gotten past the point where Nurah has planted the demon blood. Through interviews they have came to the conclusion that Nurah was probably behind it, but just don't have any evidence to prove it. Being a heavily good party they have just taken to keeping her close (taking her with them on every mission)and under close watch.

The thing is it seems that Nurah's treachery is supposed to be discovered and resolved at that point or soon after. I'm not seeing any more plots shes suppose to hatch after that point.I did have her ring the bell in the Chapel as she snuck off under stealth. The players suspect (incorrectly) she had something to do with Arles's freak out but still haven't taken any actions against her nor have they tried to redeem her. She hasn't helped them one bit in battles either. She's played it off as "i was guarding the rear, getting into position

Now this is where it gets complicated. Nurah isn't stupid and probably not suicidal. After she witnessed the PC's completely annihilate everything in the chapel, without so much as breaking a sweat, its pretty obvious the players are extremely powerful. Or watched over by the gods themselves. She knows they suspect and are watching her and she's no match for them, or even a lone PC, for when they tire of her. She suspects that not even the demons left in Drezen can stop them, especially with an Aasimar paladin of Iomodae leading them. His power attacking smite evil with radiance has just destroyed the opposition. She could easily sneak away, but she would have to face the party in drezen or at some point. She could Flee the war completely, but the demons would surely hunt her down.

The most logical coarse of action seems to be just stay with the PC's out of self preservation and avoid risk. I could have her attempt one last PLOY and make a run for Drezen. Then have her work against the players indirectly while retreating further into Drezen until she's forced to choose a side.

How would other GM's play this out? And what are some plots she could hatch without putting herself to much in harms way?

Deleo according to the faq bane overcomes damage reduction.

The rules:

"Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe."

"Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction."

Core Rulebook FAQ:
Amulet of Mighty Fists: Does this allow a creature's natural attacks to bypass damage reduction if the enhancement bonus is high enough (as noted on page 562)?

Yes. If the amulet grants at least a +3 enhancement bonus it allows a creature's natural attacks to bypass cold iron and silver damage reduction. If it is +4, it allows them to bypass adamantine damage reduction (although not hardness), and if it is +5, it allows them to bypass alignment-based damage reduction.

Due to a quirk in how bane works, and the mythic epic DR rules, technically a +3 bane amulet will penetrate the DR/epic of the bane creature type:

+3 base enhancement
+2 enhancement from bane
bane is a +1 ability
=+6 equivalent

actually Ryric makes a very good point

DR/Epic: A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.

Dr/epic is worded and functions completely differently than normal DR. And because bane is a +1 ability, that happens to increase enhancement as well,the way DR/epic is worded it counts twice. A +3 magical beast bane longsword would "count" as a +6 weapon versus an epic magic beasts DR/epic, although it would still be a +5 enhancement for all other purposes. Maybe not RAI but RAW the way its currently worded.

Well, I for one would rather have a optimizing rollplayer than a roleplayer like this one.

And keeping someone in the party that just drains their resources just because he's a player character is an epitome of metagaming.

i call it marriage.....:P

See, everybody is still forgetting a primary things: crafting feats ARE NOT MEANT TO GENERATE TREMENDOUS WEALTH. The guidelines for crafting state, a single crafting feat does not add more than 25% to WBL (and it scales down with more). Any economies COME OUT OF THE CRAFTERS POCKET. If the GM is following the WBL guidelines, the crafter absorbs all the "saved" gold, which does not leave a lot of wiggle room.

If folks want to play with houserules, great. But the system has safeguards in place that if you just ignore radically change the nature of the game.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items
Search "Adjusting Character Wealth by Level"

The GM isnt supposed to allow the WHOLE PARTY to double their gold. The crafter gets a bit extra, and the rest get the advantage of customisability. That's all. If the crafter has 12.5 k WBL, & you have 10k WBL, and you ask him to craft a 20k gp (price) item, THEY have to reabsorb 10 k GP, leaving them with a paltry 2.5 k gp. The advantage of the crafting feat is NOT meant to be money-saving, it's (mostly) meant to be CUSTOMISABILITY.

Here's the paizo example:
"Example: The Character Wealth by Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items."

What your forgeting is those rules are from ultimate campaign- an OPTIONAL book, your shouting it like its core raw. Like you said there guidlines. I doubt if the OP's GM thinks downtime rules is to complex than wpl is probably too complex as well.

Honestly a lot of these posts just sound like children bickering. The guy is free to play his character however he feels just like everyone else. So he's playing a slightly frugal CN wizard. That's not only his choice its his right. Just as its everyone elses right to go to another wizard for crafting. He's not stealing from the party, he's being completly upfront and honest about his terms and your free to have your character except them or not. This is no where the same as CHARGING to have a fighter use power attack or a cleric to heal. It wouuld be more equal to someone else telling you when and who you your allowed to power atack or how many heals you can prepare and on who and when you can heal. Because that's what its seems everyone is implying about the wizards craft feat- the party decides who he crafts for, when he crafts, and how much he can charge or he's somehow not a team player and cheating the party. I would hate to play a paly with some of you guys cause I would get kicked out of the game for donating wealth to charity and cheat the party out of all that gold that could have been used for something else...but that some how different I suppose....

So is this supposed to help fight the magic wal mart syndrome?

No this is to help explain, visualize, and provide paizo support for for magic item shops in golarion down to sample shops and shopkeeper personality. It must be because so many gms, besides myself, have trouble visualizing in a world of fantasy that there actually ARE magic marts. Which is odd given the fact some of the things gms imagine into there worlds (g).

I myself always welcome more goodies to hand out...or sell.

As a gm all options are on the board. As a gm not only do I feel its my duty to tell a story but also to teach players the rules of the game, esecially new players. And most people learn best through example. If gms only use "swing your weapon and roll a d20". Then players may never realize there are other options available or if there effective in combat for a melee pc. I use sunder, disarm, bullrush, trip, grapples etc. And seeing them and now understanding the rules players do to. And now that my players have had a weapon destoyed they don't dump all there cash into one weapon. Same as different DR. My melee pc's almost always have backup weapons of B/S/P for more reasons than sundering and a ranged weapon as well. Also there likely to use cash for stat manuals, stat belts, resistance cloaks, etc than say dumping evrything towards that ONE magic +5 sword than can be lost,broken, stolen or other wise removed from the game.

On sundering, there are quite a few times that actually using it MAKE SENSE. I often have at least one player who maxes ac. Would any intelligent npc keep hammoring at a shell and missing while the party pepers him? Sometimes an enemy can't hit a pc but could if he cracks his shell first. My BBEG wizards OFTEN have guards instructed to sunder pc's, why wouldn't a genious? He cares not if his minions die. But he does care if he can prevent a well armored group of adventures from reaching him well armed.

The problem with not using all the rules available as a gm your effectively pulling punches and creating uninformed or mentally unprepared players. I like the "kids" statement. Your preatty much raising them in a vaccum. This can be a big problem at higher levels were tactics and planning play a bigger role. Or for other gms who take in new players who were babied in other campaigns. I prepare my "kids" for the "real" world. I teach them by letting them play in the mud, fall down, cry, not run out and replace broken toys, planning ahead, responsibilty, and learning from there mistakes. This makes stronger, better educated, and wiser players in the end and in the long run not only is it still fun but helps teach players valuable life skills for the real world.

I have to say im pretty much on MDTs' side on this forum. I'm an old school gamer, been playing for over 20 years. A characters stats is the basic building blocks, the foundation, if you will. And i've seen some posts that i wonder if there even serious or just trolling. If you have a 7 str your not going to be big like the Rock, if you have a 7 Int your not going to be professor X, if you have a 7 Chr your going to look or act like you belong in the movie the hills have eyes, not a boy band.

If a player has a curtain persona he expects of his character i expect his stats to reflect it. If you have a penalty to a stat you have a disadvantage to that aspect of you-its as simple as that. I expect my players to give SOME quality to his background to reflect this flawed aspect of himself. Same as if you have a advantage to a stat, i expect a player to play up his strengths.

I bet if the GM started pulling this kind of stuff the players would cry bloody murder. Example if a large orc hits for 2 damage then you describe a frail orc child attacking your party tank and smashing him for 12 damage, they would cry BS! OHH but hes really strong on the inside cause thats how i want to play him, his muscles are just REALLY dense ;) There is enough realism issues with rules without turning basic stats upside down.

Luckily i dont have any issues with my players dumping stats, especially CHR. Of my current group 3 of 4 have + chr mods with a 20 point buy. We dont see the point of maxing a stat. If everyone maxes out all there main stats all this really does is put the game on easy mode. We dont like to put the game on beginner mode, we like it challenging after playing it for so many years. While we dont gimp ourselves we do build our heroes more organically.

i dont own any prepaints yet but this will probably be the series that i throw some money at.

For those upset about the sizing issues let me educate a few on plastics manufacturing. First off im a process engineer in injection molding with over 15 years in the industry and have produced parts for GM, Ford, Honda, whirlpool, ohio art and many others so i know my plastics. Im not trying to be snarky, im just trying to give you a basic idea how the industry works in the real world.

These plastics parts are getting spat out of a machine by the thousands an hour. in order to guarantee that every part is a perfect fit your talking about paying workers to sort and spec gauge every single part coming out. So instead of paying 1 operator to bulk pack 4-6 different parts running on 4-6 different machines, your talking about putting about 5 people on ONE machine gauging every peace that comes out. Now also consider that SOME if not all figures are made right here in the USA. Average operator pay can range from $10-$15 per hour and will require experienced operators trained as Quality control to achieve that kind of quality, meaning no temps so those workers have health insurance that is paid as well. And this is only about 10% of the picture so you can see how the cost could easily spiral out of control.

Your asking for higher quality standards than automotive parts and even medical equipment get- for a toy, something that just isn't feasible without pushing this figure into 200+ dollar range. Running plastic parts at such an efficient cost/ tight profit margin your naturally going to have some parts that warp, shrink, and even partially fill out- its just the way plastics are. Give Paizo and us hard working Americans still molding in the USA, and not china, a bit of wiggle room. You would be surprised how much engineering, investment, quality, and man hours already goes into those prepainted little toys.

If you get loose fitting peaces and really dont want to glue them together here's a good cheap solution for plastic minis. Purchase a small can of polyurethane gloss/varnish (about 3$). i use minwax as its easy to find. Get the brush on kind not the spray. Give the part to be inserted a coat and let dry. This should effectively shim up the seating and allow for a tight fit. If its still loose you can apply multiple coats. superglue will actually melt the plastic and the fumes can cause white-out around the fitting if too much is used, not to mention fingerprints if you get it stuck to your finger. you can even apply the gloss to the whole figure to protect it or give it a glossy look if you like the look. you can get the polyurethane in varying degrees of glossiness, i prefer a matte finish.

cheers,

Ok been super busy with the new baby. The more info i added into the doc the more i noticed it could use for new players so it turned into quite the project. Document is now uploaded and free for all to use with Openoffice.org

RunebladeX's Kingdombuilder Document- Openoffice.org Version .

complete list of changes=

Layout changes and spelling corrections.
All sheets converted to full color with color identification of kingdom abilities. All yellow cells are fill in data.
Added more drop down info.
Added more comments sections.
Added PC/NPC sheet= all leaders are now selectable via drop down on overall sheet.
Kingdom sheet has the additional optional resources with descriptions such as rivers, lumber camp, lock, etc.
Added basic pathfinder calender to kingdom sheet.
Added awards section to kingdom sheets to track Story award permanent kingdom bonuses and coded data.
Added Building info sheet for easy reference of buildings.
Added city map sheets. Pathfinder building icons can be imported and pasted onto tiles if properly reduced in size. (not included for copyright reasons).
Buildings names can still be selected via drop downs. Maps are not coded and can be copied and inserted for each city required.
City sheets now contain more magic item slots, most are hidden
Added Printable version Building info sheet for player handouts. Sheet is hidden.
Added Rules sheet containing Kingdom Builder rules that were not displayed in cell drop downs.
Added Phase sheet for easy player reference of phases and made printable.
Added coding for Kingdom ruler(s) titles to automatically change with kingdom size.
Added enchanted forest to resources- optional custom resource
Added Rare enchanted forest to resources to cover forest hex with rare resource-...

bumping this back up as there seems to be some GM's using unfinished obsolete kingdom builder programs. Also there might be some GM's who haven't ran/started kingmaker yet and don't know this program exists.

I can't believe I've been running my kingmaker campaign THIS long every other weekend for 10 hour sessions and only half way through the AP! My players are only halfway through The Varnhold Vanishing. I've ran the Slow progression though and added in numerous side quests. Currently my players are heading up into the mountains next to lake Silverstep with Aria Varn (Maegar Varns daughter who is a summoner, i added in), where the Unerring compass is leading them to the lost flying Shory city of Ulduvai. There hoping to recover some lost ancient relics from the age of destiny that hopefully might help then stand up to the BBEG and his forces. Nothing like running the Crucible of Chaos as a side quest :D I think my Pc's kingdom is around 4-5 years old now. they've slowed on there building but the kingdom is fair sized with 5 towns and the ruler being a duke.

I got some ideas.

I would go with the resident evil approach. Have your own "T virus". This will give you more monster options than simple zombies. Any corporeal undead would work and instead of being actual zombies could just be "the infected". Just because everyone considers them zombies doesn't mean every monster has to actually BE a zombie per say. even aberrations and magical beasts could be used, they could just be mutant infected animals or creatures specific to your world. Outsiders would be some great "infected" creatures too! If you remember the resident evil movies the virus effected curtain creatures and individuals differently. This will also keep things interesting and keep the players from getting bored fighting nothing but zombies and zombie templates.

As for handling the disease and player infection i got an basis for a concept. I'm just throwing thoughts out and in the case of formulas i'm just getting a general idea across. Make the players semi immune. This would explain why the pc's weren't killed early on and infected themselves. Make it so they are infected but there bodies incorporated the virus inot there DNA and gave them powers like Alice from resident evil. This could be the very reason they have there class powers,abilities, and spells- there just mutants. This would make the players seem special. This would also explain why clerics and mages couldn't cure the disease before it destroyed civilization- because there was/is no magic. people gained "magic" because they became infected with the x-virus and it manipulated there DNA in a positive way giving them super powers instead of turning them into the "infected".

To add to player fear and play up the zombie apocalypse theme make it so they can still become infected and turned but there body is semi-resistant, hence saving throws. This would explain why there not turned every time they take damage- which would be a game breaker. An idea could be to make an "infected" template. Every "infected" creature can spread the virus but the potency depends on there CR, and the creature becomes undead. This will give you back the whole bestiary-just make them all "infected" undead :D If PC's fail There save they suffer -1 ability damage to constitution, if they make there save there body is permanently immune to that particular creatures infection. This would be a good basis to start as PC's can heal ability damage at 1 point per day, which is good for low level PC's without magic. Of course since your whole campaign will be based off this you might want to up the cure rate to 1d4 or even different amounts for different classes.

Lots of Random ideas-

even though there are the "infected" you could have different strains or mutations of X virus. get real familiar with ability damage, poisons, afflictions,curses, etc. You could have strains that have mutated and function as something else completely now such as a poison effects, curses, or afflictions. This would balance out the classes and races better as some have more Resistance to diseases and others say poisons or curses. you could have numerous strains of the X virus, build a template for each- a few at a time. Or maybe some strains do intelligence damage, or wisdom, etc- this would be good as players have more than just there CON scores to work with before they turn into something. maybe when curtain abilities reach 0 it turns you into something other than a zombie. for example maybe if your constitutions becomes 0 you turn into a vampire,or if your wisdom becomes 0 you turn into a wight. maybe some creatures turn you into something completely different than the creature that inflicts you. Example, maybe an "infected" who is a Cornugon converts people to gargoyles, and gargoyles convert you into Imps. Maybe some races are effected differently than others and each race is effected differently depending on what ability was reduced to 0 once "infected". example, elves who have there charisma reach 0 turn into dark elves or Grimstalkers, Gnomes turn into derro or farlarren etc. Maybe some strains are so virulent it kills you... With all the chances to becomes "the infected" instead of higher stats you might just want to give them a good boost to there constitution as they will be making numerous fort saves and many classes have poor fort saves. This may help explain more why there resistant to the virus in the first place... Maybe after some creatures are infected the virus mutates them, runs it's course and becomes inert, so some creatures can't spread the virus anymore. The possibilities are endless but the more planning you put into it the more fun it will be.

I was actually working up this very idea for a campaign but it soon started to become a campaign setting i never did finish, i was going to call it "Afflicted". Now that i've seen your post its sparked my interest again lol. once i got started i got flooded with ideas, some i mentioned above. i even started making up prestige classes lol.

CLOSING-

However you decide to run it there will be a lot of variables you will have to plan for- some you may not even realize until they come up. The more in detail and thorough you are, and the more planning and work you put into it the better the campaign will be. Players will need to know upfront how your rules are going to be in your campaign or how some things are going to work. While the IDEA of a zombie apocalypse is good as a basis, it's not good enough for an entire campaign setting by itself. while im sure you could just throw the PF rules into a zombie apocalypse world, i don't think that's going to give you the exact feel your aiming or prepare you for all the butterfly effects the flavor of your world will have on some basic rules and balance issues. your going to need a good set of housrules to play it off well and without nerfing specific classes.

It might be better for you to ask your players if they are willing to help you build this world and the rule-set. Make it clear that this will be a play test and everyone will help establish the world as you go. Once you have a good enough rules-set(house rules) down you can run another campaign from the start with the finished rules that everyone contributed too. This will help you play test the rules as you go without players feeling there being cheated because they didn't know from the start how x or y rule would apply or work in your world. or find that the party paladin is god and the wizard lasted 2 rounds before being infected. it's easy to even say "hey we will continue to to use x core rule but in the REAL campaign world we will use this rule instead as it's more with the flavor of the world im going for, but i completely forgot about rule X before we started playing". Or "i didn't anticipate that wizards would be this nerfed and at risk without requiring curtain magical items or spells, what can we do to balance it out with the rest of the classes? that's a good idea player 3, lets try that and see how it playtests and see if it still needs more work or something completely different." You may find that for balance all classes will need a GOOD fort save, or a wizard can cast x spell 3+ INT times per day just to stay alive. Also go easy during play test, there's no reason not too. Players may get frustrated when they see how some things actually play out in your world. It would be a good idea to use some form of retraining system or let players make new characters if they wish. For example, PC 1 " man knowledge nobility sucks, how was i suppose to know it would be THIS useless" Or, player 2 " what do you mean zombies always go for me because im a dwarf and zombies find dwarves the most tasty of races- that's not fair!" or player 3, "you've made wizards unplayable until level X as i just need to make too many fort saves- IT"S impossible!" You may even find some things swinging out of balance because of the nature of your world, again this would be a good case of "we will continue with core rule X but in the REAL campaign Restoration will only do..." or "wow wizards are screwed, ideas?" Lastly encourage your players to participate in the rule building and don't shut them out. you may feel a rule might make perfect sense to you in the zombie world but it will just be plan unfun or mean for the players.

A kingmaker type game would be fun to run in your world. It would be fun to have cleric PC's that could cure and save some of the infected. The PC's could build up a "new civilization" where there striving to cure enough people to rebuild society while zombie land relentlessly tries to devour the last "food pantry". Adventuring out in treks to cure more people and bring back home more skilled people and supplies.

I know it was long but i hope some of this was useful and you have fun with your brain buffet!

RunebladeX wrote:

my lawn my rules...

No, it's not your lawn. The GM doesn't own the game and graciously allow the players to participate. It's everyone's game.

Actually in my campaign it's EXACTLY like that. We all play but it's my campaign. I provide and bought all the books, game aids, adventures, miniatures, painted them all. Physically it IS my game lol. The GM is the director. In a movie it's not the actors movie, it's the directors. Maybe in your campaign thats how it is but not mine. I suspect if all GM's ran there games like yours, and im not saying it's wrong or bad, many GM's would get walked all over. And i see more of this issue on the boards more recently- players thinking the GM has to spend all his free time catering to the players.

You can say im rude, or obnoxious, or a strait up D&%K, but this style works for me and my group(s). I tell my players strait from the start this is how it's going to be. Anyone, including myself is free to leave at anytime afterwards. Do I invoke rule 0 a lot? No, usually the rules are pretty clear cut. I try to explain, when in conflict,why rule is such and such. i have an ex GM and a well ruled player who backs me up 90% of the time. I don't purposely try to make rulings to be a powercreep or to screw over players but sometimes players are in error. I've allowed takeback actions when they weren't aware of how a rule actually worked. And yes sometimes i even make the wrong call,but i acknowledge it and i correct it- extra XP, hero points, treasure etc. but i keep the game moving.

I also agree that a GM and player is a give take relationship. i never said other wise. but you can do this and still have control of the rules- as a GM should. In my case i am the GM and as such i can invoke rule 0- except it. There are houserules for a reason, there are times when situations comes up and it was realized that "hey this isn't so clear cut, this is how im going to rule it and so becomes a houserule." so it's not ALWAYS feasible to always have every possible housrule discovered before a campaign starts. I direct the flow of the game, i take the rulings and story. The players get given a little by choosing the THEME or FLAVOR. That's how it balances out and i keep players happy overall and keep them coming back year after year.

The kingmaker campaign I'm running now the players wanted higher stats so we used an alternate rolling method. They are Monty's so they have high fantasy treasure and items. I wanted to use the slow progression as it was our first switch to PF, so they could progress slowly and feel out there abilities and learn the rules,and they HATED this idea. As a consolation prize i told them i would throw in even more treasure by upping them to average progression treasure,throw in sidequests and adventures to give even more loot and campaign time, and give the option of custom magic items and spells. from the start they were aware that if i made a ruling that's how it was going to be. BUT they have characters with super stats and about double to triple the WPL. In the end as a GM it's my obligation to keep the game moving, and to make quick calls to get the most out of our play time. You can have all the goodies you want as that doesn't effect the game flow. If my style is wrong we will keep playing it the wrong way :D

The problem seems to be more culture. like not respecting your elders, talking back to your parents, drinking from the milk jug etc. Seems youths today in general (not including everyone)just feel there entitled to everything. seems many today have there own opinions and no matter what is clear in writing if they don't agree with it the book is wrong, stupid, or my favorite "like ...whatever." I remember first getting into RPG, the DM was god and players didn't even have access to the rules. What the DM said was law. you didn't like it- to bad, shut up and leave. I was a player and those days i actually HAD THE MOST FUN. you didn't have wasted time arguing rules and the game moved along smoothly. Now if a GM invokes rule 0 it's almost guaranteed your losing at least 15 minutes of game time.

I try to compile a list of homerules, but this is our first PF campaign. so, homerules are getting established as we play. I've had players try to argue but i've politely held my ground that this is basically a play test and if they don't want to participate they can leave. Not only has no one left but from player word of mouth i have 5-7 people who want to play now.

Players seem to shape up real quick when they realize there dispensable. I keep one player spot open to rotate in "temp" players or an NPC if no one can fill in that night. I think every GM should do this if possible, it lets the players know if there going to be a problem george, bob, or tom is always willing to get a full time spot. I don't baby my players and i let them know this is my campaign, but everyone's game. They don't have to obey all my rulings, there free to leave anytime. I'm not obligated to GM for them, they dont pay me to GM. Rules zero helps me maintain some sanity and keep the game moving when i need it to.

Ok first off i know calling out the Devs for a clarification is a big no no. And it's not what i'm doing here. i know what RAW says about the matter. And i'm not calling them out, i'm simply inviting any of them over to pop in and give there opinion- NOT an official clarification. If what people want is a clarification/errata then thats what the faq button is for.

First off my reasons are different than most. I'm not seeking an answer to tell me how to handle rule X in my game, or for me to show up anyone, or throw "JJ said" in my GM's face, or to state rule X is broken so paizo needs to publish errata on X rule.

The reason is I've been working on a supplement for a 3PP and there is a curtain class portion that revolves around earth glide. This supplemental class has powers that bend and effect earthglide, in the same manner as barbarian rage powers effect his rage. With that being said it's VERY difficult to write rage powers without knowing exactly how rage works, the same goes for earthglide. I never even realized any problems until it went into playtesting and playtesters brought up some interesting points.

Being as thorough as i am, i figured it only fair and worth a shot to seek some insight on how to handle it. After scouring the archives for some hopeful solutions i found more questions than answers.

I can let the class fall where it may and let the GM's handle it, as the rules are the rules. I can hold out on publication and hope for more rulings/errata which could cost me. I can give the class it's own clarifications that supersedes the pathfinder rules or future errata. Or maybe i could get some good insight from developers and players (future consumers),which is why i asked for opinions on the matter. I think maybe giving the class it's own clarifications would be best but i don't want this to come across as trying to make paizo look bad or for paizo to take any offense.

Lots of rules-

Ok been super busy with the new baby. The more info i added into the doc the more i noticed it could use for new players so it turned into quite the project. Document is now uploaded and free for all to use with Openoffice.org

RunebladeX's Kingdombuilder Document- Openoffice.org Version .

complete list of changes=

Layout changes and spelling corrections.
All sheets converted to full color with color identification of kingdom abilities. All yellow cells are fill in data.
Added more drop down info.
Added more comments sections.
Added PC/NPC sheet= all leaders are now selectable via drop down on overall sheet.
Kingdom sheet has the additional optional resources with descriptions such as rivers, lumber camp, lock, etc.
Added basic pathfinder calender to kingdom sheet.
Added awards section to kingdom sheets to track Story award permanent kingdom bonuses and coded data.
Added Building info sheet for easy reference of buildings.
Added city map sheets. Pathfinder building icons can be imported and pasted onto tiles if properly reduced in size. (not included for copyright reasons).
Buildings names can still be selected via drop downs. Maps are not coded and can be copied and inserted for each city required.
City sheets now contain more magic item slots, most are hidden
Added Printable version Building info sheet for player handouts. Sheet is hidden.
Added Rules sheet containing Kingdom Builder rules that were not displayed in cell drop downs.
Added Phase sheet for easy player reference of phases and made printable.
Added coding for Kingdom ruler(s) titles to automatically change with kingdom size.
Added enchanted forest to resources- optional custom resource
Added Rare enchanted forest to resources to cover forest hex with rare resource- optional custom resource
Added bridge, building, Ruin, and town resources to kingdom page for completeness.
Changed “resources” under special resources to "natural resources" to avoid confusion as resources is used a lot

Hopefully your players will enjoy the video game style appearance as much as my players have! This was player inspired. After a while, to my players, the numerous sheets all seemed to look the same and kingdom building became tedious and boring. With so many cells and sheets and all looking similar, my players quickly found it dulling there senses and hard to find what cells they actually had to enter data into. While the sheets did what they were designed to do, they had no visual appeal and became an eyesore. They asked me to change the layouts and add a splash of color.

While all the sheets/charts are cleaned up and colored it's not colored just for the sake of being colored. All Colors actually represent something for a quick reminder. Yellow for cells players can enter data into to build there kingdom. Color codes for economy, loyalty, and stability so players quickly recognize what's effecting each score. Leadership roles use the same economy, loyalty, stability colors to note what leaders effect which score. And Red to highlight warnings and cautions. There are a few other minor ones but those mentioned are mainly it. Other than that shades of greys are mainly used on most of the sheets to note cells that cannot be changed and to break up rows and/or columns for the eye to easily follow. I didn't want to make the document overwhelming so i tried to limit actual color use to a practical function.

Now, not only can your kingdom be fun to build up but a pleasure to look at as well! :D

Feel free to report any errors if any are found. I'm pretty confident everything has been found as the document is currently in use by my players and has been tested, but you never know when released to thousands of players. Feedback is also greatly appreciated!

Enjoy!

I actually don't think leadership is over powered or under powered if handled by the GM well. granted it takes a lot of work as a GM to get it just right but when a GM does it works out how it was intended to be. I also am probably one of the few that do like it as a feat. I think it was in 2nd edition you gained a stronghold and henchmen when you reached a curtain higher level. I wasn't fond of that. The way the system is now if you WANT a cohort you spend a feat. while it may seem like thats a tax if you consider it from a fighter stand point he has feets to spare. ANd i feel it was the fighter who the feet was really intended for anyway, a knight and his squire.

The thing with about a cohort is he is still a NPC- a NON PLAYER CHARACTER. That means the player does not have control of him. He is not an extension of the players power ambitions. Though he is a NPC he is also a cohort, which means he's a loyal companion, a friend, and an ally-a sidekick. He still has his own ambitions and free will. He is not bound to the player and is not a slave. If he is treated as such he can leave on his own accord. It was mentioned earlier about an alchemist handing out all his "goodies" everyday. First off a cohort is not going to do this. he's not a slave and didn't join up with the PC to be such. He may offer his goodies from time to time but if the player expects it of the cohort daily the cohort is going to realize his Leader is not a leader at all and not worth following.

I agree that you could easily throw in a DMPC. But the problem with this is how GM's play these DMPC's. For me i might have a DMPC join up from time to time if he has the same goals as the players AT THE TIME but such a character really should have his own ambitions and quests separate of the PC's- and never be a permanent member. Also i feel it's a conflict of interest, as some players will feel your taking away from there spotlight or outdoing them. Also a DMPC shouldn't be as loyal as a cohort, thats what leadership is for! If players see "why should we take a feat to gain a NPC when the GM gives us a better one for free!" then ofc leadership is stupid- the GM just made it obsolete and worthless. Also a DMPC should demand an equal share of treasure and experience since there actually just another PC in GM's clothing. This may not go over well in the long run for the party. If the DMPC doesn't get an equal share in return, and what character with a personality wouldn't, then again the GM is sugar coating the whole system and making leadership worthless.

A cohort should be played as a sidekick with free will and give benefits worthy of a feat but not exceeding it. The GM should use him to be versatile and help grant the PC a bonus to curtain conditions just as any other feat does. The cohort should be an asset to the leader NOT an extension of him!

what a cohort MIGHT do:

- Going total defense and providing cover for his archer master.
- Healing a wounded mentor and keep him in good health.
- Playing the bodyguard for the wizard who requested his skilled arms.
- Aiding his commander in an attack or skill via aid another.
- Distracting a foe in melee and going total defense so he's not in much danger and his rogue mob boss gains flanking and can sneak attack.
- Using and taking teamwork feats to work in tandem with his leader so the party doesn't have to take teamwork feats if they don't want to but the leader can make use of them!
- Sacrifice himself to save his master.
- Provide useful adventure hooks and information.
- Watch his horse and equipment while he's in a tomb, underground, or sleeping.
- Take his masters watch so he can be well rested.
- menial tasks such as cleaning, cooking, caring for his equipment etc.
- Spread word of his leaders great deeds.
- mysteriously have ties to a merchant and pull off a deal on item x...
- carry his access gear or items.
- aid in crafting items.
- aid in combat
- provide utility spells or circumstantial spells.
- free up spell space by memorizing circumstantial spells.
- create items and offer at a discount on a limited basis.
- watch his back.
- stay back out of melee taking ranged puck shots even though he's not that good at it.
- be an intelligent mount.
- Use his class abilities as directed by his master.
- loan one of his items to his master.
- very well may refuse anything against his character or alignment.
- Choose not to obey every order.
- make his own decisions.
- run away.
- aid the party but his foremost attention and dedication is to his master. IE he may choose to heal his hurt master when the party tank has a higher % of HP missing but may still buff or heal other party members from time to time if he thinks it helps his leader the most.

many of these things are trivial and very well might be considered a waste of an action by a player, and some are. But thats a cohorts role, to be a sidekick and aid his leader. A cohort should not be a min/maxing metagaming DPR racer who takes the most efficient actions and makes the most effective choices who charges into battle like he's the hero. While this shouldn't be taken to the extreme to be a complete moron, his role is really to assist- not to be another PC. On another note he should have a mind of his own and not be expected to do any and all of these things at whim.

A cohort SHOULD NOT:
- offer up all his special abilities or spells on a daily basis to his master(he's not a slave).
- loan items to party members besides his master unless extremely dire.
- put himself at needles risk.
- scout ahead alone (unless thats his role).
- take more risk than PC's
- Ask for anything in return for his loyalty.
- Take leadership
- Be expected to remain a cohort forever.
- controlled as if a pc.
- ordered what to do each round and every action.
- be built by the player
- forced to take specific feats,abilities,classes, or spells.
- loan wealth
- Obey other party members unless in character and to his best interest.
- be a magical meat puppet.
- taken advantage of.
- disrespected.
- fight to the death under all circumstances.
- chose to go everywhere (i'm sorry my lord but i choose not to accompany you into the tomb of the lich king!).
- be 100% predictable or reliable.
- act as a summoned monster.

In my campaign i play the NPC, this gives me a chance to actually play with the characters and not against them. It also lets me let the players shine as the cohort is always 2 levels under the party.It also lets me play up how cool the pc's are by giving the cohort faults or not optimizing him. For instance he may use a bow often but not have high STR or DEX to use it realy effectively. He will still hit from time to time but it the players hit more often and harder and it makes them feel more special. Also players hardly ever have faults, my NPC's ALWAYS DO like real people, this can provide some good comedy or good RP. Example: In kingmaker the party got ambushed by will o wisp's. Quintin the cohort succeeding on a knwledge check knew how deadly they could be and took off screaming into the night like a scared little girl. It turned into a side quest where the players had to track him down and rescue him from a pack of worgs. Not the best use of a feat that session if you look at it from a mechanics view but the players will never forget that incident and often bring it up. And if not for the cohort they wouldn't have had to fight the worgs and got the XP. Now they built Quintin an INN in the kingmaker city call the QUINT INN.

When i use DMPC's i also keep them 2 levels under so if a player likes the NPC he can take him as a cohort. It also lets me introduce story hooks without being to coincidental and allow an ongoing NPC the characters can relate to and chance for numerous RPing. When one of my players takes leadership the cohort just doesn't show up out of thin air as some have stated. A cohort shows up because of a characters fame, legacy, and exploits. When he takes leadership he's basically advertising "lord Darious of the Prevailing knights is now taking a squire. all those interested contact borganine of the golden cup". Or "Scias the earth elementalist seeks a skilled warrior, healer, scout, archer, etc...". The player has no control who or what the NPC actually is. If he asks for a healer he could be a cleric, oracle, fighter/cleric, or even a bard. I make up a couple NPC's that fill the role the player wishes to acquire and he gets to make a choice in which one he actually takes as a cohort through roleplaying, he doesn't get to look at the NPC's character sheet. If the players has no role preference i offer up random NPC roles and the player chooses one. A few times the player actually took all the potential cohorts on a quest to see them in actual use and how they play out, this was a great and smart experience.

In summary leadership is a nice feat when handled right. It's completely up to the GM if he wishes to allow it but he should consider how it will play out,how it will effect the game, and how to handle it. NPC's, DMPC's, and cohorts should be played completely different with there own unique perks and flaws. Remember every character is suppose to have there own personality. There not just automated magical items in the form of a person who the PC can activate for goodies, as I mention earlier a magical meat puppet so to speak! Leadership is the only unique feat in that it is what the GM makes of it!

thanks for your time.

RunebladeX wrote:

And thats just it. it's magic traps that im having the problem with. If a magic trap has a trigger of say "proximity" is it as simple as "yes the rogue can stroll right up and disarm it with a Disable device check cause that's what rogues do". even though by logic the trap would go off before he could get to the trap itself. Im not picking on rogues im just trying to find Raw support one way or the other. I allow rogues to make a disable device check and stroll right up unless the trap specifically says otherwise even if it is proximity, line of sight, or something else as the trigger. but is this right? this also has some odd side effects.

for instance, say it is a fireball trap and the rogue fails. unless he fails by 5 or more the trap doesn't go off. but if he doesn't fail by 5 or more but still fails the proximity still doesn't sense him? so in essence if the rogue can't fail by 5 or more because his disable device check is so high that means he's completely immune to ranged traps as long as he detects them first? just because i do it this way doesn't mean im right. i just do it that way because i dont have much evidence supporting one way or the other.

There is the problem right there. You understand how the trigger plate for the crossbow works and thus can understand how the rogue gets past it. In this example the trigger plate is the "senses" for the crossbow trap. A magic trap also has to "sense" the target to know to go off. In the real world this could be the magic equivalent of say a motion sensor, or a heat sensor, or a vibration sensor. A rogue knows how to foil the senses of the magic trap by moving slow, hiding body heat, or walking softly. It is up to the DM to fluff it... or just accept the rule and allow the thief to try and disarm the trap.

yeah i agree, im not worried about the fluff. As a veteran GM i can embellish quite a story that my players can except. It just the very mechanics of it that im ify on. And i agree that this is the ONE thing that should not be taken away from rogues as its the only real ability that other classes can't duplicate easily, if at all, and the one thing at higher levels rogues are still useful-disarming magic traps.

i've had the party rogue encounter one magic trap so far and this is how i explained.

PC searches for traps and detects magic trap (cant remember what the magic trap was). me- "you search the area for traps but dont find any mechanical traps, just as you go to proceed you detect a slight tingling feeling. Remembering back to your training with master Yoshu you recognize it as a magic trap. You close your eyes and focus in on the energy and can feel the the magics pulse, recognizing its signature as (insert magic trap). You pull out your masterwork tools and secure a lead lined jar to a pole with some tacky paste. You carefully place the jar over the magic trap and move in. Pulling out the countering alchemical ingredients you begin to disarm the trap. Suddenly you hear a dull thump sound underneath the jar and can tell the magic has been released safely..."

i can tell you from exp that leadership actually works well in Kingmaker if you put some limitations on how it's applied. If the player wants leadership ask him of his intentions why and what he wants to get out of it. Don't have the cohort as a robot and dont let the player choose and build the NPC and be under his control. what i did was have the player choose what kind of role if any he wanted his cohort to fill. example- soldier, caster, healer, skill monkey. once he made it known what he wanted i just assigned one of the various NPC's already in kingmaker to be his cohort.