Amulet of mighty fists +4 bane = +6 enhancement bonus?


Rules Questions


In the Wrath of the Righteous AP it is quite likely that in the last chapters a lot of the bad guys will have a substantial DR/epic. For my wildshaping druid it will become a challenge to deal some damage if I won't find a way to bypass this DR.

The question is if an amulet of mighty fists with a +4 enhancement bonus and evil outsider bane would result in a +6 enhancement bonus against demons or if the enhancement boni for an amulet of mighty fists are definitively capped at +5? I'm afraid it's the latter but I am catching at every straw. What is the opinion of the rule experts out there? Thanks for your help :)

Sczarni

without double checking the rules I would assume that the bane would function normally; against the designated foe it would be +2 and +2d6 more damage.

If that's incorrect I'm interested in seeing the citation as well.


As I read it, you can't make the weapon have a better than +5 enchantment bonus, but are allowed to add other enchantments up to a +10 equivalent maximum.

If your +4 sword/fist also is a bane weapon, I don't see why the additional bonus shouldn't be added against the appropriate foe. It isn't the same as giving a blanket bonus of more than +5, but instead making it more potent against its bane enemy, which is surely the whole point.


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Quote:

Weapon Bonuses: Can weapon special abilities (such as bane) or class abilities (such as a paladin's divine bond) allow you to exceed the +5 enhancement bonus limit and the +10 bonus-equivalent limitation?

For the enhancement bonus limitation, it depends on the specific effect or ability that's altering the weapon.

Bane: This allows the weapon to exceed the +5 limit, but only against the designated creature type. For example, a +5 dragon-bane longsword is normally a +5 weapon, but has a +7 enhancement bonus against dragons and deals +2d6 points of damage against dragons.

Paladin: The divine bond ability says "These [enhancement] bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5." That means if a paladin has a +5 longsword, she can't use her divine bond to increate the enhancement bonus to +6 or higher (but she could use her bonuses to add abilities such as flaming to the weapon).

The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.


Also, as a note, Wrath of the Righteous uses mythic rules which includes:

Quote:
DR/Epic: A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.

So, if your amulet of mighty fists has an total +6 equivalent it counts. So a +5 flaming amulet of mighty fists bypasses DR/epic according to the mythic rules, which you all should be using.


Claxon wrote:

Also, as a note, Wrath of the Righteous uses mythic rules which includes:

Quote:
DR/Epic: A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.
So, if your amulet of mighty fists has an total +6 equivalent it counts. So a +5 flaming amulet of mighty fists bypasses DR/epic according to the mythic rules, which you all should be using.

Note that an Amulet of Mighty Fists is typically capped at a +5 equivalent, which I assume is the intent of the question. Deleo is asking whether "An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5." overrides the +2 that Bane gives.

For my part, I'd say that no, Bane works as normal. But I do think it's a bit ambiguous.


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You could still make it AoMF +4 Bane (+4 enhancement + 1 bane = +5, limit of AoMF).

Then, against the appropriate enemy, it is still +6 (penetrating DR/epic).

As for the Amulet's limitation "overriding" Banes effect, there isn't anything different between the Amulet's limitation and the normal weapon limitation on total enchantment, but Bane still works on normal +5 enhancement/+10 total weapons, so there's no reason to think Bane wouldn't work on the AoMF.


ZZTRaider wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Also, as a note, Wrath of the Righteous uses mythic rules which includes:

Quote:
DR/Epic: A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.
So, if your amulet of mighty fists has an total +6 equivalent it counts. So a +5 flaming amulet of mighty fists bypasses DR/epic according to the mythic rules, which you all should be using.

Note that an Amulet of Mighty Fists is typically capped at a +5 equivalent, which I assume is the intent of the question. Deleo is asking whether "An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5." overrides the +2 that Bane gives.

For my part, I'd say that no, Bane works as normal. But I do think it's a bit ambiguous.

As I read it, the "modified bonus" refers not to the effective bonus against a target but to the quantity of magical enhancements (pluses and properties with plus-equivalents). The value of the final enhancement bonus after factoring in properties isn't relevant.

This happens when the rules overload the word "enhancement" and "bonus" in too many places. : (


For some reason I was thinking that amulet of mighty fists was capped at a +8 total enhancement...now I'm not sure why.

Anyways, my statements still stand for what they are. The AoMF cant go above a +5 enhancement for placement of enhancements/special abilities but bane still functions normally.


Claxon wrote:
For some reason I was thinking that amulet of mighty fists was capped at a +8 total enhancement...now I'm not sure why.

You're thinking of Bracers of Armor.

You're good to go Deleo!


Majuba wrote:
Claxon wrote:
For some reason I was thinking that amulet of mighty fists was capped at a +8 total enhancement...now I'm not sure why.
You're thinking of Bracers of Armor.

Thats funny. This thread also prompted me add to my house to up the limit for AoMF. It's now a +10 like any other weapon, though I did keep the pricing standard for the item (bonus^2*2000 gp).


Claxon wrote:
Majuba wrote:
Claxon wrote:
For some reason I was thinking that amulet of mighty fists was capped at a +8 total enhancement...now I'm not sure why.
You're thinking of Bracers of Armor.
Thats funny. This thread also prompted me add to my house to up the limit for AoMF. It's now a +10 like any other weapon, though I did keep the pricing standard for the item (bonus^2*2000 gp).

I keep forgetting there's a limit at all. Makes me sad. To the house rule list!


Claxon wrote:
... though I did keep the pricing standard for the item (bonus^2*2000 gp).

Do you mean (bonus^2*4000 gp)?

Silver Crusade

Claxon wrote:

Also, as a note, Wrath of the Righteous uses mythic rules which includes:

Quote:
DR/Epic: A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.
So, if your amulet of mighty fists has an total +6 equivalent it counts. So a +5 flaming amulet of mighty fists bypasses DR/epic according to the mythic rules, which you all should be using.

Which makes abosolutely no sense as it creates instances where a weapon can bypass the EPIC DR of a mythic creature... but not something with "lesser" DR.

Even better, just look at the Golem conudrum. Per the mythic addendum to the DR rules a +6 equivilent weapon, lets say a +1 vorpal great axe, will slice through an Adamantine Golem (DR 15/Epic) like a hot knife through butter but will not mitigate in the slightest the damage to a... Wood Golem (DR 5/adamantine). Does that make sense?

Thus, I ignore that little blurb in the Mythic book a it is a needless adjustment to the DR rules as presented in the CRB and serves no useful purpose as it creates in consitencies where DR EPIC can be bypassed but lesser DR cannot.

As to the original question, yes an Amulet of Mighty Fists +4 Bane counts as a +6 equivilent weapon and will bypass DR/Epic as it was originaly written (i.e. DR/Epic can be bypssed by a weapon with a +6 or better enahncment bonus) AND as it stands in the Mythic Book (if you use that version).


Majuba wrote:
Claxon wrote:
... though I did keep the pricing standard for the item (bonus^2*2000 gp).
Do you mean (bonus^2*4000 gp)?

Yes I did

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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Due to a quirk in how bane works, and the mythic epic DR rules, technically a +3 bane amulet will penetrate the DR/epic of the bane creature type:

+3 base enhancement
+2 enhancement from bane
bane is a +1 ability
=+6 equivalent


The bane cost of +1 doesn't add into the enhancement bonus of the item to penetrate epic DR. In your example, for a bane weapon +3, it would only be a total of +5 against that type of creature. Theoretically, if you make a bane weapon +4, it would be +6 against that type of creature. That would theoretically penetrate damage reduction.

However, I would not allow it to penetrate epic DR personally.


I notice there also appears to be this discrepancy in the rules:

DR/Epic: A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.

Smite Evil: ... Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.

I wonder which takes priority.


TyrKnight wrote:

I notice there also appears to be this discrepancy in the rules:

DR/Epic: A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.

Smite Evil: ... In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.

I wonder which takes priority.

I see no interaction between those two abilities.


I quoted the wrong portion. My bad. I fixed it.

The contradiction is that it says DR/Epic can be overcome ONLY by a weapon; and smite evil automatically bypasses any DR. So which ruling to go with seems at odds.


Wow, I thank all people who contributed to the discussion. The majority of you agreed that an amulet of mighty fists can have an effective enhancement bonus of +6 refering to the rule from the FAQ that was quoted by Claxon. For me this clarification was very helpful as I was unsure how to interpret the relevant sentence in the description of the AoMF ("An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5.").

So there is still hope for my druid to be more than an observer in the final battles. :)


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Deleo according to the faq bane overcomes damage reduction.

The rules:

"Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe."

"Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction."

Core Rulebook FAQ:
Amulet of Mighty Fists: Does this allow a creature's natural attacks to bypass damage reduction if the enhancement bonus is high enough (as noted on page 562)?

Yes. If the amulet grants at least a +3 enhancement bonus it allows a creature's natural attacks to bypass cold iron and silver damage reduction. If it is +4, it allows them to bypass adamantine damage reduction (although not hardness), and if it is +5, it allows them to bypass alignment-based damage reduction.

ryric wrote:

Due to a quirk in how bane works, and the mythic epic DR rules, technically a +3 bane amulet will penetrate the DR/epic of the bane creature type:

+3 base enhancement
+2 enhancement from bane
bane is a +1 ability
=+6 equivalent

actually Ryric makes a very good point

DR/Epic: A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.

Dr/epic is worded and functions completely differently than normal DR. And because bane is a +1 ability, that happens to increase enhancement as well,the way DR/epic is worded it counts twice. A +3 magical beast bane longsword would "count" as a +6 weapon versus an epic magic beasts DR/epic, although it would still be a +5 enhancement for all other purposes. Maybe not RAI but RAW the way its currently worded.


Deleo:

you also have an easier option to get through DR/epic. Summon natures ally ;)

Mighty Summons (Su): Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains DR 5/epic for the duration of the summoning. If you cast a summon spell to summon more than one creature, you summon one additional creature of the same type. If you cast a summon spell to summon just one creature, you can expend one use of mythic power to give it the agile or savage mythic simple template for the duration of the summoning.

and

Augment Summoning (Mythic)

Your summoning spells bring not mere ordinary beasts, but instead mythic creatures.

Prerequisite: Augment Summoning.

Benefit: Any creature you summon using a summon spell is considered mythic for the purpose of interacting with other mythic creatures. It doesn't gain any mythic abilities or power, but is affected by mythic spells and abilities as if it were a 1st-tier mythic creature. Additionally, if the creature summoned has damage reduction, its damage reduction becomes DR/epic.

Bestiary:

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.


Tempestorm wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Also, as a note, Wrath of the Righteous uses mythic rules which includes:

Quote:
DR/Epic: A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.
So, if your amulet of mighty fists has an total +6 equivalent it counts. So a +5 flaming amulet of mighty fists bypasses DR/epic according to the mythic rules, which you all should be using.

Which makes abosolutely no sense as it creates instances where a weapon can bypass the EPIC DR of a mythic creature... but not something with "lesser" DR.

Even better, just look at the Golem conudrum. Per the mythic addendum to the DR rules a +6 equivilent weapon, lets say a +1 vorpal great axe, will slice through an Adamantine Golem (DR 15/Epic) like a hot knife through butter but will not mitigate in the slightest the damage to a... Wood Golem (DR 5/adamantine). Does that make sense?

...

not if it has the mythic subtype...

Mythic Subtype

Damage Reduction: A creature with 5 to 10 Hit Dice gains DR 5/epic. A creature with 11 or more Hit Dice gains DR 10/epic.

If the creature already has damage reduction, it adds epic to the qualities needed to bypass that reduction. If the damage reduction granted from this subtype has a larger numerical value than the creature's original damage reduction, increase the creature's original damage reduction to the amount of the epic DR. For example, a monster with DR 5/bludgeoning that gains DR 10/epic from the mythic subtype gains DR 10/bludgeoning and epic.

:D

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