Leadership


Kingmaker


Hey guys,

my party has been seriously thinking about getting the leadership feat next level (7) so they can fill in the gaps in their strategy/get a lot more attacks/... etc.

Apart from the fact that this is going to give me headaches in learning the new names/personalities/... I was wondering what everyone's feel is about the Leadership-feat in Kingmaker.

The kingdom has so many NPC's (from town guards to some wizzies in training, etc) that I am thinking about houseruling the Leadership out. Do you feel this to be just/unjust, and what have you done to people who wanted to take the feat?

*starts rattling the pot for 2-cent-pieces* ^^

Dark Archive

I know the two DMs I've played with where I considered Leadership decided it would have to be a stay-at-home cohort, which kinda sucks, as my cavalier needs a bard to tell people of his deeds (and sing "Brave Brave Sir Robin...").


1 person marked this as a favorite.

i can tell you from exp that leadership actually works well in Kingmaker if you put some limitations on how it's applied. If the player wants leadership ask him of his intentions why and what he wants to get out of it. Don't have the cohort as a robot and dont let the player choose and build the NPC and be under his control. what i did was have the player choose what kind of role if any he wanted his cohort to fill. example- soldier, caster, healer, skill monkey. once he made it known what he wanted i just assigned one of the various NPC's already in kingmaker to be his cohort.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Seriously - my Leadership rules:

(1) The player tells me an in character role he's looking for (such as bodyguard, lieutenant, apprentice, etc.), I then design the NPC - class, race, gender, and even alignment.

(2) The NPC is an NPC - NPC stats, NPC gear (at least at first, since the PCs can choose to bestow a part of gear to them). They aren't a lesser part of the PC, and while they'll support their PC, they won't follow them blindly.

(3) I roleplay the NPC. The PCs control them in combat.

(4 - optional) Use the LEadership table to determine when the cohort levels. Just makes your life easier.

If you don't do this, you'll end up with a buff/healbot that does nothing but sit silently in the corner until given an order - at least 50% of the time.


Interesting ideas.
Basically, they *have* been working on training the mages in "melee combat" and stimulating the city guard and stuff. This has all been mostly fluff though.
Maybe, after choosing a role, I could pick one of those people and start moving closer to the PC.

Didn't the PC's complain that they didn't get to build (min-max) the npc?


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rickmeister wrote:

Interesting ideas.

Basically, they *have* been working on training the mages in "melee combat" and stimulating the city guard and stuff. This has all been mostly fluff though.
Maybe, after choosing a role, I could pick one of those people and start moving closer to the PC.

Didn't the PC's complain that they didn't get to build (min-max) the npc?

They can complain all the hell they want. They're still not going to get to do it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Someone else suggested that any Cohorts be drawn from the pool of existing NPCs as presented in the AP. That's going to be my approach as well. It has to be an NPC established, either as part of their background and worked into the campaign already, or one of the ones I've used or created. There's a good chance that one of the PCs may wind up with Elminster of Shadowdale as her cohort...


Bruno Kristensen wrote:
I know the two DMs I've played with where I considered Leadership decided it would have to be a stay-at-home cohort, which kinda sucks, as my cavalier needs a bard to tell people of his deeds (and sing "Brave Brave Sir Robin...").

Well my character (the ruler) has got his own cohort bard who does sing my praises frequently.

I created the character with the point buy, gp etc specified by the DM. The DM had a look at the cohort and would have vetoed anything he didn't like. In game I run the cohort similar to a PC, with the proviso that he is not a mindless automaton. Sometimes the DM takes him over to do things like advance the plot, act on behalf of third parties etc.

If I were DMing I wouldn't mind if the player made their own cohort and run them pretty much however they want. If the cohort was too munchkin I would get the player to modify it. As lots of people have said on other threads on the topic, the DM is pretty busy already running the show, why add another job.

The only time I would not allow Leadership is if the party was already 5+ players and it would all get too unwieldy. But for small parties it is an easy way to fill a gap or beef up the party without a player having to fully play two PCs.


Rickmeister-

leadership also provides some uniques advantages in kingmaker

i choose to level cohorts up 2 levels behind players and as the players level up the cohorts level up as well, always 2 levels behind.

this lets players level up there NPC leaders and hence increase there stats and become better leaders. it also allows me to bring in new NPC characters to provide new NPC leaders and players the chance to upgrade to better NPC leaders.

for kingmaker NPCs there stats seem rather paltry compared to my players stats as they all used way higher stats points. I usually upgrade an NPC's stats that a player is willing to take as a cohort so he doesnt seem horrible. for example "you have petitioned for a cohort to fill the roll of healer and jhod has volunteered but doesn't feel he's quite ready yet and could use your help getting him trained and adventure ready". The player roleplays finding Jhod some divine guidance and training. spends a few months to a year in kingmaker time,and they build up the kingdom in the mean time as well. Jhod finally believes he's ready, during his training his stats have increased to elite array and his level is 2 levels behind the players. this has allowed players to become even more appreciative of the NPC and adds a lot more to the game.

using this method should releave any worries of the player being unhappy with min/maxing his cohort if you make him fair and decent. And he aslo has the added advantage of being a better NPC leader, and that is an incentive to have in kingmaker over a min/maxed cohort...


Thanks to all for the feedback, it's interesting to hear ideas from other DM :)


The way I am going to deal with it is like my old DM dealt with it in a previous 3.5 campaign where we made up a mini-game of kingdom building within the campaign (and why i chose to run KM)

basically the leadership feat allowed them to take control of an NPC which they had been grooming, and also took on responsibility for the welfare and health of said NPC. Without leadership any NPC's they wanted to be part of their kingdom were controlled by the DM and usually whined about food/jobs/freedom from oppression whilst not always following orders. The DM did ensure that the NPC was suitable for cohortness, i.e. the PC had been being friendly or done some actions over a period of time (generally over an entire level) that would mean that the NPC would follow the PC. Also if the PC neglected the new cohort then the cohort might decide that following the PC was not such a great idea and leave, causing all the penalties as if the NPC had died.

Silver Crusade

In the game I am a part of, I am taking Squire (After a talk with the DM) to get a new player into the game. It gives me some RP reasoning to go over what she is capable of and explain the better parts of combat and movement, as well as when to advance and retreat.

A tad unconventional as I understand, but I feel it serves a good purpose and gets a new player into the game without a huge burden of knowledge as part of the feat requires me to actively teach them how to do things and then put them to the test.


As a GM, I have given most players access to some kind of NPC as a cohort sans leadership feat (although one character turned theirs down - too much babysitting involved.) I build them and they are sometimes involved in battle. I RP them to an extent, although they are shaped by the players take as well. One king, lots of princes.

The King, who has leadership, has an extra cohort who he builds, and in addition I gave him a free army unit based off the highest level of his cohorts (although at 25 men currently it's a small army.

To be fair, I run a tough game . We just winished RRR and I've been using the six person modifications for a 5 person table, plus the extra I throw at them (fey dire bear anyone?). I am running Fellknight currently and we... accidently... got to test mass combat rules. So it balances out.


All 5 of my players have taken leadership. I've told them I don't want to see more than 2 cohorts in a battle, and so far they have found things to do with their NPCs around the kingdom. Their cohorts can act as an extension of them and deal with problems accross their kingdom, or give the players the freedom to leave a problem to go deal with annother. Just as important as the cohorts are the followers, which have become loyal servants doing the players bidding in keeping their schemes running.

One thing is there is always more to do. If you make them want to be in more places than 1, the cohort in combat problem can be resolved.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Only one of my party looking to take it is the Queen-to-be, for when she finds a suitable marriage arrangement. We're not quite at the point where other communities will be throwing suitors at her feet though.

Likely the new King will be "Stay At Home Dad" and run the kingdom while the party gallivants about solving problems and killing monsters.

Liberty's Edge

Hah, yes, I can speak to this matter. Every single PC in my game took Leadership. Here's what I did, feel free to pick and choose as suits your needs.

I allowed my players to use 20-point buy (like they got to use for their PCs) if they were taking a cohort/follower that already existed in the game as an NPC, and 15-point buy if they were creating a character from scratch. I've played in too many games where it's like, "Suddenly this (exotic race/class combination) arrives on a boat or something and pledges his/her/its fealty to PC X for no discernible reason." (Although arguably there's more room for that in KM than in other games...) So I wanted to incentivize preservation of the narrative, and reward people who had been investing effort/emotion in NPCs, while not taking away that element of fun from players who derive a lot of their enjoyment from putting together their own build.

To that end, though, I basically let the players "rebuild" the NPCs as they saw fit, as long as it was within the parameters of the character's feel. Cohorts that were created from scratch were done so (grudgingly ^_^;; ) with my input, so they would have a connection to the storyline in some way.

I've also declared that taking an NPC as a cohort or follower is basically prioritizing his or her loyalties towards the PC in question. The NPC will still act in their own self-interest, but it's pretty much a convenient way of determining who the PCs can really count on, show that a former bad guy is really trying to stay on the straight and narrow, etc. There has been some interesting political maneuvering, as several players have been snatching up members of the ruling council as cohorts and followers, and I make sure that those PCs receive relevant information first. Nothing major, but enough to make them feel like they have a contact.

As far as CRs go, I would recommend having a printout of the 6-player conversion on hand, or at least a rough idea of how you might modify a likely encounter. My group has lately been swapping out which cohorts, followers, and even PCs, are venturing out to complete any given quest, so you may not need to do anything to boost the CR. When they encounter a dramatically lower CR creature, they've taken to fighting it one on one, or even just getting into a grapple with it. (Watching a STR 8 alchemist wrestle a blood caiman is not a sight to be missed...) When a full party of PCs and cohorts is brought to bear, though, know that it is a POTENT force of destruction. I advise adding at least some window-dressing grunt foes, so everyone feels like they're contributing.

Finally, I will say, remind your players to be nice. Don't make cohorts that intrude into a PC's niche, don't poach NPCs that clearly "belong" to another player, etc. Probably your group will be just fine. My group is generally quite courteous, but we all have our moments.

Kingmaker is a fabulous campaign to make use of Leadership, and I hope it works out well for you guys!

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Find everything I have to say about the Leadership feat here.

I think that if you do it right, the leadership feat can be a great tool for you. Also, as long as you have a way to stay organized with your NPCs, it shouldn't be a problem to keep track of everyone.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

If I ran a game with Leadership, I'd have the NPCs be in the background. While the PC is adventuring, the NPCs are working, gathering information, and on their own adventure. They're almost like a party of their own that adventures in the background on behalf of the PC.


How it works depends on party size. If you are running with up to four PCs, it's a welcome addition most of the time. If you have more, it may just bog down things.

IMC, I replaced followers with a kingdom bonus based on the character's role. For example, a court mage would get a discounted mage's tower, while a baron/king would get a Loyalty bonus.

The cohort will either fill a kingdom role or follow on adventures. Plus I keep the right to say that the cohort is sometimes sitting one out.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Since the whole AP is basically about leadership on an even higher level than the feat, I gave every one of my PCs the feat for free. Then I gave them a list of minions that answered to them. Most of them chose a minion to make their cohort. The cavalier his squire, the warden his lead scout, etc. The queen chose Akiros, who became the head of the royal family guards. She debated on Kesten, but instead she agreed to officially adopt him as her brother so he could marry Holly Varn and cement an alliance with Varnhold. Lord Varn would only consent to a marriage of equals for his daugther aka a ruling family.

The only stipulation I made with the feat is that your cohort does not go with you into dungeons or on obvious adventures. They are expected to go on missions of state, visiting other kingdoms or rulers, etc. I level them up keeping them 2 levels behind the PCs. They are loyal and reliable and would only do something detrimental to the PC or kingdom if they were controlled by magic. Like other posters have said, this allows the PCs to have guaranteed "safe" NPCs they know are not spies, traitors, etc.

I let the PC have fairly complete carte blanche with the NPC going forward, but they got what they got when they take them as a cohort initially. They also got to name and appoint minions to the different roles under them, allowing them to reward commoner or random NPCs they took a liking to along the way.


Quote:


Since the whole AP is basically about leadership on an even higher level than the feat, I gave every one of my PCs the feat for free. Then I gave them a list of minions that answered to them. Most of them chose a minion to make their cohort. The cavalier his squire, the warden his lead scout, etc. The queen chose Akiros, who became the head of the royal family guards. She debated on Kesten, but instead she agreed to officially adopt him as her brother so he could marry Holly Varn and cement an alliance with Varnhold. Lord Varn would only consent to a marriage of equals for his daugther aka a ruling family.

The only stipulation I made with the feat is that your cohort does not go with you into dungeons or on obvious adventures. They are expected to go on missions of state, visiting other kingdoms or rulers, etc. I level them up keeping them 2 levels behind the PCs. They are loyal and reliable and would only do something detrimental to the PC or kingdom if they were controlled by magic. Like other posters have said, this allows the PCs to have guaranteed "safe" NPCs they know are not spies, traitors, etc.

I let the PC have fairly complete carte blanche with the NPC going forward, but they got what they got when they take them as a cohort initially. They also got to name and appoint minions to the different roles under them, allowing them to reward commoner or random NPCs they took a liking to along the way.

+1 !

Scarab Sages

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My Master List of Minions

In case anyone is interested, my players kingdom is at 3 settlements and 12 hexes and we are about two thirds thru Book 2. Here are the current minions I have assigned. They will expand as the kingdom grows:

Baroness- chamberlain, ladies in waiting(3), page, squire (only because she wears armor), advisor, scribe, head of royal household guard (her cohort), weaponmaster.

General – squire, page, aide de camp, training sergeant, 2 messengers, military master of coin, 1 leader for every military unit in the kingdom.

Marshall – city guard captain (1 per settlement), 10-50 city guards per settlement depending on size, master of horses (horse trainer/breeder for patrol animals), master of arms (logistics and supply, 2nd in command), 1 patrol leader per patrol (currently ( 3) 5-man patrols for every settlement), 1 patrol commander per settlement.

Warden – 3 master scouts he can assign wherever he likes, 1 ravenmaster, 1 scout trainer (for future expansion if he builds a training camp, any all scout military units and leaders.

Magister – alchemist, scribe, 2 pages, 3 apprentices.

Grand Diplomat – 2 pages, 2 scribe, 1 minor sage(specializing in history and nobility), 1 ravenmaster, 3 diplomats of varying talents he can assign wherever he likes.

Treasurer – chief tax collector, 1 master of accounts, 2 accountants, 1 scribe, 2 messengers, 2 pages, factor (buying and selling, dealing with merchants).

High Priest – 2 scribes, keeper of relics, head of temple guards(per temple), 2 messengers, master of tithes, temple keeper (per temple).

Spymaster – 2 ravenmasters, 1 scribe, 4 messengers, 3 spies he can assign wherever he likes, 1 master of bribes (keeps track of who is bought and paid for, who is vunerable), 1 master of secrets (keeps track of rumors, secrets, and misinformation)

Councilor- Guidmasters (assign as desired by GM, ie blacksmiths, carpenters, trade, farming, etc), town councilor (1 per settlement, keeps up with current events and act as extensions of councilor), 4 runners, master of projects, scribe, mayors all report both to the queen and the councilor (1 per settlement)

Royal Assasin/executioner – 2 messengers, master of gallows, arbiter of laws, sheriff (1 per town), plus 2-5 deputies per town under sheriff.

If you notice some have more than others, it is due to either their role or which ones are NPCs and PCs. PCs have more minions, but I tried to keep it reasonably balanced. Except for the Baroness, everyone had about 50% vacancies when they first were assigned minions.


Five of my six PCs took Leadership at the end of Rivers Run Red and I was a bit worried about a super-party wading into Varnhold, but all five of them wanted their Cohorts on the council, not out adventuring. Eventually, they talked the sixth player into taking Leadership as well and having the PCs give up their positions on the council - using Cohorts & NPCs to run things - to spend all their time adventuring instead of having to continually run back to town to run the Barony.

So the players (through their Cohorts) still run the Barony, but their Characters are free to go wherever and do whatever and occasionally come home to their castle to spend their reward money on ale and whores. It is a system that has worked out spectacularly well both for them and for my DMing needs. I can't recommend it enough, especially as the Council is still 50% NPCs so I have numerous vectors to introduce plot points and events (the players don't mind an 'Assassination!' attempt or two, but they'd be very unhappy with me if I revealed one of their characters or cohorts was at the heart of a 'Scandal' - even if, as it later turned out, he was the completely innocent victim of a whispering campaign).


Similar to redcelt, I pretty much require the cohorts to stay home and not adventure with the party. However, they did have to use a feat to get them, but I do give them a +2 bonus to their kingdom rolls if they have the feat depending on the office they fill.

I do allow them to come along with the PCs if the party is light for that evening’s adventure (we are in the 40 year old range with jobs and kids, so sometimes family commitments get in the way of a full party).

I run the cohorts in RP sessions and let the PCs run them in combat. I let the players design the backstory (which I tweak for plot purposes) and use the heroic NPC stat array. I also encourage them to write a one or two sentence description of the rest of their followers (including class, race, sex and personality). I usually mine this for future plot threads to make the PCs more invested.

My PC's and their cohorts are as follows:

Duke(human cavalier, order of dragon): Female battle herald prestige class who is head of the royal guard. Followers are mostly cavaliers or fighters that fill the role of personal guard/castle guards.

"Holy Father" (High Priest, human cleric of Sarenrae): Male paladin of Sarenrae, leader of the "Redeemer Knights"(military arm of the church). Followers are mostly clerics, oracles and paladins.

"Master of Lands" (Warden, 1/2 orc ranger/guide): Owlbear cub (young template, raised since RRR, soon to be full grown). Followers are rangers, rogues and druids sprinkled throughout the duchy.

Marshall (human inquisitor of Ragathiel): Female rogue/investigator. Followers are inquisitors, fighters and rogues who make up the capital city's constabulary.

"Master of Whispers" (Spymaster, human rogue/spy): Female rogue(spy)/wizard. Followers are mostly rogues and fighters. I borrowed someone's (sorry, can't remember which thread to give proper credit) domestic and international spying rules which is how these followers are assigned.

Magister (elven wizard, invoker): Will o' the wisp/sorcerer (don't ask, very complicated, but sufice it to say, this is a major plot thread which will shake the foundations of the burgeoning kingdom when it's revealed!). Followers are mostly wizards, fighters and clerics.

The rest of the positions are filled with NPCs.

-Strange Doc

Dark Archive

My playgroup usually just outright bans leadership, since it tends to bog down combat adding in extra quasi-PCs.

But in Kingmaker, I talked my DM into letting me take it. My character is King, so we decided the cohort should be my wife. So my DM spent a good amount of time coming up with possible matches from other kingdoms looking for diplomatic ties to our kingdom.

He also agreed with my proposal to have leadership add +2 to what I contribute to kingdom statistics.

However, I can only use my cohort in battle if one of the other 3 PC can't show up for game. This has only happened twice, but it might happen the next too sessions, if we decide to play.

Overall it's been very fun, and used mostly for plot and story.


We aren't playing Kingmaker, but our sandbox campaign probably has some inspiration borrowed from Kingmaker. Our DM makes our cohorts, though he does ask us what we are looking for. That doesn't necessarily make them exactly what we want.

My character: human summoner. My cohort is a cleric. From his chain of feats you'd think he was a warrior bodyguard or a strength based cleric, but he isn't. He's still useful as a cleric of course, so he spends most of his spell slots on Delay Poison, Lesser Restoration, stuff like that. He comes adventuring with us.

Our party cleric has a cohort as well. She's a cleric/rogue and runs his church while he's off adventuring. She's probably useful if we took her along. He had actually thought about taking the craft magic ring feat and I talked him out of it. In hindsight I wish he'd have taken the feat cause we had our headquarters broken into and a ton of gear stolen.

Our party wizard has a cohort and he/she is a wizard with 1 level of expert. He/she (we were presented with a woman, but the player had other ideas) is the administrator for the wizard academy - the PC wizard was, or is, the king's magical adviser. That relationship may be strained by in game events.

Originally when I talked to the DM about a cohort he provided a cleric with totally different stats. I'd have preferred that one actually, but for unknown reasons we never encountered him. And we could have used him since the city got attacked by an army of undead shortly after. Perhaps that was planning on the DM's part.

Shadow Lodge

Victor Zajic wrote:
But in Kingmaker, I talked my DM into letting me take it. My character is King, so we decided the cohort should be my wife. So my DM spent a good amount of time coming up with possible matches from other kingdoms looking for diplomatic ties to our kingdom.

This is exactly what I'm in the middle of doing for my group's future Queen. It's kind of tricky coming up with appropriate connections for all the potentially-interested political parties. I've been putting it off thus far by saying "Right now you're just another potential colony. Until you prove you won't get wiped off the map by the first natural disaster/monster incursion/bandit raid/crime spree, no one's interested in lending you support beyond sending a few colonists and your sponsors' original 50 BP donation. Deal with Hargulka, expand your colony's borders and secure peace and profit in the region, and prove you're not just another wishful thinker, and people will start to take you seriously enough to be looking into political alliances. Then the suitors'll start showing up."


Very nice Orthos!

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Orthos wrote:
Then the suitors'll start showing up."

I had kingdoms send 3rd and 4th sons, black sheep, and obviously evil abitious family members to the new kingdom. Its a great way to show the PCs they are still a backwater

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

The queen's cohort showed up during a time when plenty of suitors were in town to try and win her hand. During one role play event where a suitor was being entertained on a balcony, the cohort came into the room and threw him off of it into the garden 50 feet below.

Later, the player for the queen had to quit and the cohort (now king) became the character played by her replacement.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Our GM let us "spend" points on followers, apprentices, henchmen, cohorts, or extra animals.

I'm not sure where he got it from, I had been pestering him to let us use the leadership feat from the start. I even created a whole "Kingdom level" system to allow the PCs to create their own organizations & such, but no.

Kingmaker is about the only PF AP I've seen that should grant every PC the leadership feat at 1st level! Even if their leadership score is 0-2, and they are trying to win over the torchbearer!

But anyway, at 6th level the Queen "bought" a 4th level Cohort, a paladin of Erastil, and later pretty much arraigned a marriage for him. The logic being that the Queen is 26-27, and needs to start making babies, which leads to adventuring while pregnant, so..

The Queen will sit out her 3rd trimester each time and maybe a few other months here and there, until she has enough children. So her Consort, the Stag Lord, will allow the player to continue playing.

None of the other players have anything but "apprentices", which double as the PCs deputy on the council.
We had our PCs disappear for almost 2 years, so we all played the NPCs then. Now each position has a 2nd & 3rd in command.

We've added a Swordlord position (why everyone else does not is a mystery- what else is between Restov & Mivon????).
And the Consort & Heirs have been added to the chain of command.
The capitol, Staghart, has a town council that mimics the Queen's Council, it also provides a backup, and is full of "former" leaders to give them the illusion that they still have power.

I don't think any of the PCs will take the leadership feat, but I think some of their followers might, that should be intresting.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Queen Moragan wrote:

Our GM let us "spend" points on followers, apprentices, henchmen, cohorts, or extra animals.

I'm not sure where he got it from, I had been pestering him to let us use the leadership feat from the start. I even created a whole "Kingdom level" system to allow the PCs to create their own organizations & such, but no.

Kingmaker is about the only PF AP I've seen that should grant every PC the leadership feat at 1st level! Even if their leadership score is 0-2, and they are trying to win over the torchbearer!

But anyway, at 6th level the Queen "bought" a 4th level Cohort, a paladin of Erastil, and later pretty much arraigned a marriage for him. The logic being that the Queen is 26-27, and needs to start making babies, which leads to adventuring while pregnant, so..

The Queen will sit out her 3rd trimester each time and maybe a few other months here and there, until she has enough children. So her Consort, the Stag Lord, will allow the player to continue playing.

None of the other players have anything but "apprentices", which double as the PCs deputy on the council.
We had our PCs disappear for almost 2 years, so we all played the NPCs then. Now each position has a 2nd & 3rd in command.

We've added a Swordlord position (why everyone else does not is a mystery- what else is between Restov & Mivon????).
And the Consort & Heirs have been added to the chain of command.
The capitol, Staghart, has a town council that mimics the Queen's Council, it also provides a backup, and is full of "former" leaders to give them the illusion that they still have power.

I don't think any of the PCs will take the leadership feat, but I think some of their followers might, that should be intresting.

No offense to your GM, but if not now, then when?? Sounds like it might be never...

This AP is the one where your players get to do all the things they have always wanted to try, but the campaigns or modules never had room for them. GMs, if it doesn't break your game, say yes.. its Kingmaker for goodness sake! :)


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It's GM fiat to allow any bonus feats and player choice to actually choose a feat.

For what its worth, in our game at least, we are using it without actually having it.

As far as KM goes, if I were GM, it would be a bonus at 1st level or whatever level each PC would have a leadership score of 1.

It just makes sense.


Geez... so much houseruling... and a cohort is supposed to adventure with you. A stay-at-home cohort is a waste of a feat. Might as well choose something else as a feat.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Geez... so much houseruling... and a cohort is supposed to adventure with you. A stay-at-home cohort is a waste of a feat. Might as well choose something else as a feat.

Actually, a cohort can be used for a great deal in Kingmaker outside of combat. I allow my players to send them out on field work, to take government positions, and crafting. I discourage them being used in combat because five more characters added to combat slows it down, makes it too easy, and causes other problems.

One cohort follows the party around for knowledge checks, trap disarming, and treasure appraising. He even scouts ahead at times. So far he hasn't been in a combat but he has been very useful.


CalebTGordan wrote:
darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Geez... so much houseruling... and a cohort is supposed to adventure with you. A stay-at-home cohort is a waste of a feat. Might as well choose something else as a feat.

Actually, a cohort can be used for a great deal in Kingmaker outside of combat. I allow my players to send them out on field work, to take government positions, and crafting. I discourage them being used in combat because five more characters added to combat slows it down, makes it too easy, and causes other problems.

One cohort follows the party around for knowledge checks, trap disarming, and treasure appraising. He even scouts ahead at times. So far he hasn't been in a combat but he has been very useful.

Oh, that's OK. Cohort's still adventuring with you. My comment is more for those who get a cohort and then the cohort is simply used to runa household (or the equivalent) and never seen or heard from.


Leadership feat > go adventuring with us.

No feat, just fluf > running uour household, doing your chores, etc. Basic NPC stuff, but max "expert" level 1/3rd of yours.

Dark Archive

I have two players who took the feat, the King who is a bard with a ridiculous total leadership score and their Magister who has a charisma penalty and a pretty low score.

The king has followers as his personal guard, as the palace guard and as their captains, one of them is even a bandit they spared right at the start at Kressels camp (they're on book 5 now), he returned after the several years that have passed as a follower of Sarenrae, trying to make up for his misdeeds. The kings cohort is a pegasus that has agreed to serve as his mount, I've given it the background that it is one of the fey creatures of the stolen lands and represents their interests with the king and he values its insight highly.

The wizard has taken a different route and with a pretty low overall score has chosen to have his followers as his family, the cohort is his wife (a beer brewing dwarven alchemist) and whilst she doesn't adventure with them has proven quite useful and has certainly had a decent amount of story develop around her, the lower level followers are their grown up kids and eventually once a lot more start to arrive they will be part of his dwarven clan, which he plans to start a new city based around. I did offer to let him simply have this as a 'fluff' but he was happy and wanted to get the feat for it, which is fine by me.

Even those who haven't taken the feat however have 'minions', the Peace Keeper (Royal Assassin) her her detectives and police force types working for her, the Spy Master has a network of agents who report to him and so on. These npc's all all loyal (mostly) to the kingdom (or their pay) and interact mostly in a story way with the players, whereas the two with leadership feats can actually make rolls and should they choose, send their followers on slightly more difficult/esoteric tasks than the players who just have 'fluff' followers.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

If you look at my houserules I made an alternate ssytem called kingdom leadership to handle this very problem, and my PCS are able to take leadership if they wish... With kingmaker it just makes sense.

Sovereign Court

In our campaign, my character is the only one to have leadership. I am a Sorceror and the King. My followers are all in low level positions in various other councilor's departments to help me keep an eye on things for me.

My cohort actually comes from my character's back story. I was a relative of the King of Taldor and raised a revolt against him because of his inability to stop the downward slide of Taldor. Of course we failed, but put up a good fight. My cohort was a cavalier devoted to our cause. Now he is an order of the Lion as I am the King. He serves two purposes.

1. While adventuring,he is my bodyguard/muscle. He was actually very useful for a long period he was our front line fighter. He is more useful because we have found some old feats that boost the Leadership feat, and I have one that lets him be onoly one level lower than me. he is also the only other lawful character besides me in the group.

2. He is the head of the Order of the Dragon, so named because I have a draconic bloodline. It is and order of cavaliers of the Lion that serve as a group of elite bodygaurds and extra-military organization. They are not a part of the army and therefore do not fall under that jurisdiction. I have been laying the ground work for this since book one.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

Aside from kingdom leadership I've decided to give all my players a cohort, not under direct control but with similar enough stat arrays to serve in their place on the council. I also houseruled that they can bring exactly 1 with them on adventures at a time the others had to sub in for them on the council.


I have three players - each has a primary Character that they build, control and develop as they will. However, they each control a secondary character - built by me using NPC classes and builds. The six characters make up the adventuring party.

Although the players control the secondary characters, I retain the right to take them over as NPCs if I think they are stepping out of character :)

However, apart from the NPC council - they have a number of other NPC staff (who are all mine) Mrs Egwin runs their household staff, the Boat Guard crew their boat and provide ceremonial guards. The Horse Guards sort out minor problems and clear up after the main party. So lots of 'extra' resources they can access if they really need them (and that I can use to help out in difficult situations like the potential TPK because everyone rolled a 1 and failed their saving throw!)

If they choose to take leadership as a feat, I will handle it in the same way as I have dealt with other key NPCs. Once they have told me what they are looking for, a number of NPCs will present themselves for interview. The PC will be able to choose from those who are available, and will only see the character sheet AFTER they have selected their Cohort :)

After that, they will pretty much control the way their Cohort develops, however, they won't necessarily have full control of the min/maxing of feats.

BUT - we play with a RP heavy group - where the character builds are more affected by RP considerations than min/maxed for rules benefits.

Grand Lodge

In my group we've usually just used the rule that the Cohort is a second character for the player. Saves on trouble. I am curently a duke in the kingmaker game my DM is running and picked up the Leadership feat. I told him I wanted the feat and ran several possible cohort ideas past him. He really didn't want me to have any more bears at my command, so I decided on a psionic human bodyguard. Also, being somewhat neurotic I've stated out all of my followers. I have control over them, but he gets to approve or dissaprove anything. This lets him focus on running the game and me focus on fielding my own army of minions.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Path / Kingmaker / Leadership All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.