Rivade's page

Goblin Squad Member. Organized Play Member. 524 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character. 3 aliases.



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I like this thread, I think it offers a lot more than most threads, but sometimes when I read about balance on these forums, all I can picture is a bunch of mathematicians solving equations on a chalkboard and dumping the variables that end up lower.

Who cares what the numbers say about balance? You have a person - a person, who is alive and free thinking and intelligent - who spends his time trying to come up with ways for you guys to have fun together. If you end up with a higher to-hit than you really ought to at that level, he can just change the encounters appropriately. If you end up with a crappy to-hit, he can do the same thing.

But, a'course, a lot of this thread isn't about numbers. It's about class redundancy and narrative power, issues that are much harder to solve than a simple tweak here or there to a stat block.

I've played more wizards than anything else, and I love not having to worry about keeping Knock prepared or on a scroll because we don't have a rogue. I love knowing I can stop preparing a Summon Monster spell or two every day because the new armor the fighter just got is the bee's knees, and he's going to take hits that much better. If my fellow party member can cover something one of my spells do, then I can get another spell to cover something we couldn't have without him. -He- is the one adding versatility to the group, not me! His presence and skill set are the very conditions I require to bring the new component to the group, so without him, there is no new component.

This is not a competitive game. This is a team game. The party works together. My toolkit is also my party's toolkit. Just as if we were to find a locked door, the party would look at the rogue to pick it, I have no problems with the party looking at the wizard to change the story's direction with a spell. Remember, though, the party is a subset of the full team. The full team includes the GM. If the GM doesn't want the wizard bending time and space and circumventing a plot point, the party should respect that. I don't get upset because my thing is swinging a sword, but my buddy's is altering reality, I get happy that I have two things I can rely on.


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For PFS: This sort of thing can only be okay if you speak with your fellow players first. It's official play, meaning the characters are recorded and tracked. If you end up getting one of them killed because your character can't pull his own weight, you've cheated them out of time and effort spent on their character. If you let everyone know you've chosen a route that is full of flavor but light on power and inform them that you'll need to lean on them, and they agree, then have at it. However, it's unfair to suddenly bring it on them out of the blue. If they don't want to play with it, I'd start working on another concept you can get just as attached to, one with a bit more to bring to the table combat wise.

For a home game: Go for it, man. I mean, yeah, let your friends know what you're doing, but if that's what you want to play, then do it. And if no one enjoys playing with you, do a one-on-one thing with your GM. My buddy and I did that, and he played a merchant. It was an entirely different sort of game, with very little combat, but it was heavy on roleplay, which sounds like something you'd like.


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What sort of campaign are you gearing up for?

Are you doing a wilderness and exploration theme? Track encumbrance. Is it entirely or almost entirely urban? Don't worry about it. Is it low magic, where the party will be lucky if they ever get their hands on a Bag of Holding? Track it. Do you expect the party to have a base of operations, to which they constantly return to prepare for the next day's work? Forget it.

It can add an interesting factor to the game, or it can just drag you down. It's very rarely both. If it does one, use it. If not, don't.


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Another thing to keep in mind, in addition to what has already been mentioned, is action economy. One enemy, even one that has been literally built to fight the party, has the disadvantage of only having 1 standard, 1 move, and 1 swift action a round. It's easier to bring a threat to the table with multiple enemies.

I would be careful, though, because it sounds like - and forgive me for being so blunt - that you don't have a good grasp on the strength of your party. This is a very important skill to master as a GM, and until you do, it's very possible that encounters will be too easy or too hard. Some players enjoy those sorts of encounters, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to be the invincible heroes or enjoying a tough challenge, but regardless, you need to be able to quantify the party's strength so that you can provide the correct level of power in each encounter that you and your players want.

It sounds like they have a solid system mastery. Through some tougher CRs at them. Spend some time reading the stat blocks and think about good strats, just like you did here. Come to the boards if you want. Once you know the sweet spot where they're challenged but not overwhelmed, try to ride it as long as it lasts. If you do this, though, then toss out the experience system. Level them up when the campaign calls for it. Just because they have system mastery, which is an intangible skill that makes for much stronger characters, and are taking things down often that are way stronger than the system expects, they shouldn't fly through the levels.

Goblin Squad Member

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This thread took a weird turn.

Goblin Squad Member

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Don't jump down my throat if you disagree, as this is just a passing thought, but what if instead of requiring alignment for those all of those self-set flags, the choice that flag is what direction your alignment drifts? So choosing Outlaw makes you drift towards Chaotic, Champion drifts you towards Good, etc.

I also think alignment drift should only happen if you're logging in OR logged out but also still training.


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Hey all,

I got Inception'd by a friend a while back, and I ended up writing a database program for Pathfinder. I want to provide it to anyone who wants it free, so here it is.

It's nothing too exciting, but I find it's a much faster reference resource than books or loading up webpages (though I usually have all 3 at hand during games).

The information is taken from d20pfsrd.com's downloadable database, so a huge thanks to them (and a'course to Paizo). A main goal of the design was to allow users to update the information on their own, so by using the databases from that site, anyone can overwrite the database files in the folder. This should always work, unless d20pfsrd.com changes their format, in which I can simply alter the program.

The link to the zipped file does include the most recent database files. For reference, though, they are here:

Spell DB
Feat DB
Magic Item DB
NPCs DB
Monsters DB

Simply download the .csv version and place them in the folder, overwriting any existing. It should be noted the program will require all of them, even if you don't intend to use them all.

Mac Owners: Apple dropped Java support a while back, which means Macs will only have up to Java 6. Java 7 is the most recent version, so it's possible it won't work on Macs. Java tries to be backwards compatible as best as it can, but there's no guarantee. If any Mac users try it, if you could please report back and let us know. I would test it myself, but I don't have access to one.

Note: If you think data is missing, it probably has to do with copyrights and licenses. The databases are parsed at runtime to only include material that a program such as this is allowed to. I'm pretty limited in my understanding of this, so if you notice stuff is absent that could be included and is not restricted by law, it's trivial for me to update allowances, so let me know.

If anyone has any feedback - questions, suggestions, bug finds, hate mail - you're welcome to respond to this thread, inbox me on this website, or email me at rivade09@yahoo.com.

Thanks much!
Kyle Patrick Sharp

Goblin Squad Member

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Fulcrum, the Tech Demo that was created with the first Kickstarter was good enough to attain the funding they needed to make the game. This Kickstarter is being used as a way of speeding of development, while making the game better at the same time.

Honestly, I am not even worried about it. I think the Kickstarter will make it. And in the (what I see as unlikely) event it doesn't, we're talking about Lisa freaking Stevens. She's a pro at this stuff; she'll have a contingency plan and then some. I want in the Early Enrollment just as bad as the next guy, but if this Kickstarter doesn't work out, there'll be other chances for us to get in.

Goblin Squad Member

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Is anyone else hoping that there will be a Hoarder trait for monsters, so they loot your husk and add it to the loot they give when killed?


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It's perfectly legitimate for a dragon to say, "That guy who's shooting arrows at me and that guy who's casting spells at me both have to go." The dragon can just focus fire those guys done, either by himself or using his minions (who should be present).

The first thing I look at in a stat block when I am GMing is the mental stats. That determines how the monster plays out the entire battle.


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A friend of mine told me a story he had heard about an interesting villain. I'll recount it in a spoiler.

Spoiler:

Two friends, let's call them George and Fred (because I don't know their actual names), who used to play older editions of D&D together, reconnected online, and itching to get back into it, George asked Fred if he was interested in a little one-on-one thing by email. George could DM for Fred, and Fred could just kinda focus on roleplay and stuff. Fred agrees.

So Fred rolls up a wizard and jumps into it. He begins to wander George's world, finding out stuff about what was going on. What he finds is disturbing: tyrannical kings, oppressive nobility, and unlivable conditions for the commonfolk. High taxes and far too much hard labor places on the people has made their lives miserable, and it's not just one or two kingdoms: after years of competition and escalation, every region in the land has this system.

Fred doesn't like what he sees, so he spends his time going from kingdom to kingdom, rallying the commoners to overthrow their government. After doing this for a little while, overcoming various challenges of each area, he realizes, after communication with the new freedom-loving government, that they can't prosper with their current setup. High taxes and lots of forced labor was required.

Fred decides this is unacceptable, so he decides to delve into the dark arts of necromancy. He raises up hordes of undead to do the labor, meanwhile training wizards to be positioned in each kingdom to maintain the undead workers.

His plan works, and all of the kingdoms prosper. He spends his entire life getting this to work perfectly.

What Fred didn't know was that not long after he had begun his own conquest, George had started running a second game, one in real life, at a table with a group of friends. He describes a land filled with kingdoms that employ undead as part of their workforce, with necromancers tied closely the reigning governments, governments that had relatively recently dethroned the monarchs that had the divine right to rule.

The group did what most would - they went from kingdom to kingdom and overthrew these new rulers, killing the necromancers, and eradicating the undead. They spent their entire career trying to save this land, and while doing this, they learn of the man who had set it all up, who had orchestrated this entire setup. After reinstating the old kings (or at least their descendants), they chase down this mage, preparing themselves for the final battle. They set up anti-necromancer defenses, they plan out their speeches, and they ready themselves to take down the final BBEG of the campaign.

Meanwhile Fred, getting on in his years, hears about this group of people who are going behind him and destroying his life's work. They're setting up the tyrants he had overthrown back into positions of power, killing his apprentices, and wiping out the undead labor that the kingdoms' needed if they didn't want to overwork the populations.

Rushing up a seemingly unguarded tower, the party stands outside the door they know contains the wizard. With a final breath of anticipation, they bust in and they find -

A dying old man, weak and frail from old age, with a sad look on his face, lying on a rickety bed. Bewildered, the party asks where the master necromancer is. Fred doesn't answer, but instead responds with question of his own.

"Why are you doing such terrible things?"

Fred recounts his life, explaining why he did what he did, why he looked to the undead as an answer, why the kings of old, the ones they had placed back into power, had to go. He was only seeking what was best for the people.

And with that, he dies.

I imagine the party was left completely bewildered.


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I plotted out a scenario where a town was being threatened. However, I was torn between having a rebel group that had grown to dislike the city council versus a corrupt politician doing a Palpatine routine. So in creation, I decided I would let the party decide - they would get clues hinted at in each direction (that were intentionally designed to be interpreted as either), and I would go with the storyline that they ended up following.

That was the worst few sessions of my GMing career.

Both. My party explored BOTH options, even going as far as splitting into groups of two; one group joined the rebels, and the other played detective in the city. In the end, the story was convoluted and contrived, because I had to make up stuff on the spot to tie everything together. I ended up bringing in an agent of a green dragon, who had "engineered the city's plight" in order to test the mettle of the party, as a sort of interview for the green dragon. It was pretty much awful, though they did end up working for the dragon.


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LazarX, it is very clear to me you didn't read the replies in the thread. What you said is not relevant at all. The player in question (Foghammer) even came on and clarified it was just theorycrafting.


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So I've spent the better part of today typing this up. It's REALLY long, so I don't expect a large amount of responses (if any, really), but I'd like to get some soundboard going on here for it. Spoilering everything to make this post not stupid long. I apologize for poor readability. I can't help but stop typing a sentence mid-word to go back and add to an old one or start a new one further down the page; I always get some hangers I forget to go back to.

Bonus points if you get all the references and connections that I made. And there's a lot. Seriously. Just do a Google search on each name.

Council of Nine:

The Council of Nine are the nine most prestigous wizards within the realm. As a group, they act as advisors to multiple noble houses (including kings and queens), run the Tashgar Collge, and control the balance of magic across the world. Individually, they might offer their services to anyone who can afford it (or they are willing to trade favors for), spend time teaching (both in and out of the college) and researching.

Though they are considered archmages and the best of their time, the Nine are usually very specialized. This shows considerably when comparing the council members' abilities outside of their school - it is usually only on par with a much weaker mage (though this is not always true). The exception to this is the Universalist seat, which must be held by someone who displays outstanding prowess in all fields (though this wizard is still weaker in each school than those who specialize). Each school of magic has its own place within the council, and it is forbidden to break this rule - each school must be equally represented.

Every 5 years, there is a competition that tests any wizard who volunteers to show off his abilities (though they can only apply for one school per competition). It takes one week, known as the Haze, followed by the Grand Challenge. The first few rounds of this are arbitrary tests that any wizard of worthwhile power could succeed, designed to weed out those without enough experience. After this, the trials turn competitive, and the participants are pited against each other in contests of their specialty. Sometimes these matches are lethal, though not particularly often.

Once only 5 are left of each school, each are given a chance to show why they think they deserve the seat. This is usually a spell they created themselves or a particularly mastered version of an existing spell. Regardless of choice, the 5 are compared and only the top 2 are considered for the postion. At this point, the council member himself must make an appearance and prove his skills in 3-way challenge. The Grand Challenge does not take place at the site of the Haze. The challenge is created using the essence of each school as critera, and as such, each Grand Challenge is different for each group of participants. The judges announce the challenge only once it begins.

The Grand Challenge is not something that can be necessarily watched - usually, spectators learn the results through word of mouth or the written documents that the judges release every day of the challenge, detailing how the challenge is progressing. The challenge might include: for diviners, to learn a secret from one of the judges (much more difficult than it sounds); for enchanters, to strike a truce between a kingdom and one of its enemies; for conjurers, to somehow gain command over a particularly powerful outsider. These challenges are changed each year, though they are sometimes reused.

The Grand Challenge can last for days, weeks, or even months, depending on the difficultly of the task and the opponent's attempts to sabotage each other. Despite this, some of them have ended in mere seconds, due to a particularly skilled mage's abilities (decades ago, Pynthia immediately won, having divined that her job would be to locate and retrieve an item that was loaded with anti-scrying spells and presenting the judges with it as soon as they announced it).

The competition has become a source of upper class betting, usually watched from a series of crystal balls than can be purchased from the college.

The competition is judged by a group of celestial beings - the Aspects Three. They are Lore (who maintains the Library of Tashgar), Province (who helps the Nine protect the Fracture), and Prospect (who is the main judge of the competition and also designs the challenges). These three entities are emissaries of the God of Magic.

The competition comes with a set of rules pertaining to spells used during it: any spell, even if it is created by an individual, has its effects immediately transcribed and cataloged. While the specifics of how the spell was done is left unknown, it usually takes little time for the wizards of the college and the Nine to reverse engineer it and recreate it. Some notable exceptions, such as Astoroth's spell that merged Ixis, have been had copies made many times, with all manner of wizards attempting to recreate it. None have succeeded yet, though, and so these spells might never be used again.

The Library of Tashgar is set within the college (which is itself set over the Fracture). It houses all of the knowledge of basic to advanced to legendary wizardry that exists to most of the arcane practitioners.

Abjuration: Makelo:

Makelo [Female Half-elf Abjurer]
Very "stalwart" personality
Depends only on herself and her magic but is very confident in both
Aside from Skuld, spends more time than the rest on continuing to hone her craft

Makelo is a very strong minded individual, fitting for her school of specialization. She believes that the force of one's will is a more direct factor in abjuration magic than experience in casting, and as such, she usually focuses on pupils who have the ability to steel their minds more than others.

In her training, students are taught to maintain their physical body, unlike most wizards who neglect their health. As such, many of the more promising ones dabble in transmutation magic to reinforce themselves.

Makelo keeps such a sturdy focus on these due growing from a family of illness, having watched all of her siblings, her parents, and her offspring die off from a naturally occurring sickness. She, through her own determination and her affinity for learning magic, was able to fend it off, though not indefinitely; Pythia has predicted she will eventually die because of it, though the abjurer intends to break that prophecy.

"Maybe you've heard the question of what happens when an unstoppable force meats an immovable object. I'll let you know when I find an unstoppable force."
- Makelo, to a king's court

Conjuration: Prospero:

Prospero [Male Human Conjurer]
Yearned for companionship/acknowledgement of self after growing up in solitude
Focused on conjuration for obvious reasons
Has 2 familiars (Caliban [Imp] and Ariel [Sprite])
Enjoys mentoring, spends most time doing so

A very sociable man, Prospero enjoys conversations and unimportant topics. Just as soon as he would spend weeks buried in his research and teaching his students, he would sit around, idly chatting with friends about just about anything. He craves attention and though he accepts it within himself, he is afraid of losing the respect and admiration of others. Prospero and Astoroth are the only two wizards in the council who have a true friendship. The conjurer treasures this friendship above all else.

Prospero's familiars, Caliban and Ariel, are rarely with him. His bond with them is so strong that he is able to send them off to do errands for him. Both of them, as a group and individually, have represented him during meetings.

Prospero has spent much of his time communicating with outsiders, and it is the contracts he negotiated that allow quite a few of monsters be summoned from the conjuration spells. While he has not spent a lot of time on this recently, the conjurer still ensures to contact representatives of each kind and maintain a strong relationship between the mages and the monsters.

"Ah, so you have brought friends with you. We think alike, you and I."
- Prospero, being ambushed by assassins

Divination: Pythia:

Pythia [Female Human Diviner]
Known as The Vista
Has a natural desire for information
Spends most of her time in the Library, talking with Lore and rereading the books

Pythia is the epitome of foresight. She is always many steps ahead of those around her, sometimes even having experiencing it already. She has an insatiable need to record everything and has developed and cast a permanent spell on herself that instantaneously converts her thoughts and visions into written form (a quill that never needs ink writes on on parchment that scrolls at the needed pace).

She does not hoard her knowledge, though - the information she discovers is almost always cut into a book and placed within the Library. Indeed, she contributes more than any of the other Nine. She only witholds information when it is potentially dangerous or is irrelevant, though she has still kept the secret of Ambriose Diggs.

Pythia cares intensely for Lore, the aspect that watches over the Library, and has expressed interest in becoming an aspect once she is ready to shed her mortal coil.

The diviner has only twice ever regretted learning something: when she learned Skuld's past, which was filled with such monstrosities and indescribable horrors that she spent the better part of a week quite sick initially; the second was when Lore finally gave her a glance at his view of the world, despite his repeated claims of her not being prepared. In this second event, she was granted his vision for one day, though she could not remove it before the day was up. Before the end of it, she had been forced to blind herself with a dagger, unable deal with the sight of a godly aspect. She has had her vision restored, but she left the scars that surround her eyes where she had maniacally stabbed her eyes. Many believe the scars were left to remind herself not to look too far, but in reality, she keeps them only as a remembrance of what she will become when she becomes an aspect.

"There are those who don't think diviners have the insight they claim. This room has mostly evokers and transmuters who believe that. Fun fact of this speech, most of them seem to like the color green and are currently looking down at their clothes to see if they're wearing it."
- Pythia, during an introductory speech to new students at the Tashgar College

Enchantment: Ambriose Diggs:

Ambriose Diggs [Male Halfling Enchanter]
Also Oscar Zoroaster, Illusionist of the Nine
Friendly, charming, outgoing, very personable (though oddly does not get along with Prospero [who secretly finds Diggs's natural charisma threatening])
Has negotiated a very high number of treaties and truces between warring kingdoms (rumored to have ended a 10 year long war after a week of involvement)

Ambriose Diggs was not born a halfling. Nor was he born at all. Oscar Zoroaster, in a test against himself, created the persona to try to fool the entire council. He knew he risked his own seat permanently for the attempt at deception, but he viewed it as a honest desire to further magical knowledge.

He spent years perfecting the character and giving him life, coming up with clever ways of handling being in two places at once (including some spells he created). It wasn't until he felt entirely comfortable in the illusion that Diggs made an appearance. Instead of immediately entering The Haze (which he would be a finalist, at the very least), he put Diggs at the entry level of Tashgar College and went through years of studying enchantment magic, even dedicating himself to appearing to learn the basics.

An entire decade passed and Oscar was able to keep up this facade, developing even better techniques, and finally, the would-be halfling entered The Haze. He did quite well and got to the Grand Challenge. At the start of this, Pythia sought Oscar out and informed him that she knew what was going on. He pleaded with her to allow him to finish his experiment. She almost turned him in, but Oscar did something no council member had ever done: allowed the Diviner full access to his mind, telling her she would not be disappointed.

Pythia, who could not resist the chance to find out what untold wonders could lie within the brain of a gnome illusionist, tentatively agreed, on the condition that if he was doing this for personal gain, she would report him. What she saw there confused her, though. She learned that Oscar, using a combination of enchantment and illusion magics on himself, had cracked his mind in two, allowing both Diggs and his actual self to share the gnome's body. The two minds regarded each other as brothers and the closest of friends but were otherwise independent. Both were aware of what had been done, but neither cared.

Seeing the devotion that Oscar had to furthering his illusions, Pythia had no choice but to allow him to continue. Diggs went on to upseat the previous Enchanter.

"I don't know, have you ever thought that maybe people just like me? I mean, after all, I -am- a halfling. It's sort of our thing, isn't it?"
- Ambriose Diggs, to Prospero

Evocation: Ixis Naugus:

Ixis Naugus [(Male) Humanoid Evoker]
Three people, fused into one being that has the qualities of an elf, orc, and human
Each of the three were masters of evocation: a wizard, sorcerer, and wizard (respectively)
Using Astoroth's help, were able to combine into one being and succeeded the previous archmage using their combined powers
Very standoff-ish and confrontational

Ixis, due to the nature of his being, is a very complication man. Though, to call him a man is not entirely accurate, as the elf fused within him was female and her voice, along with the voices of the orc and human, are apparent when he speaks. He does not particarly care for the purpose of the council, he fights for the seat more as proof of his superiority of in his craft.

Par for the course for him, Ixis has an open challenge to any evoker who thinks they can best him: if they can beat him in a test of evocation, he will give away his seat. There is some speculation as to whether or not he has the authority to do this, but he has never been beaten, so the issue has never come up. Though they cannot be council members, Ixis extends his call to any caster, from sorcerers to clerics to druids to test their mettle against him, promising riches and magical items in return. These duels of his lead to death for the other side about a quarter of the time.

"I applaud your courage, and I am grateful for your challenge, but I feel so very bad for you at the same time."
- Ixis Naugus, after a challenger had approached him

Illusion: Oscar Zoroaster:

Oscar Zoroaster [Male Gnome Illusionist]
Also Ambriose Diggs, the Enchanter of the Nine (see his entry)
Thinks the Tashgar College creates a dullness in wizards, though he teaches there and graduated from it
Occasionally conspires with Pythia about ways of getting certain votes through the council

Oscar Zoroaster is a brilliant trickster, having deceived even the majority of the Nine (all but Pythia) with both his magic and his pure cleverness. He grew bored, as a child, from ripping off his peers and even elders, with basic cons and devoted himself to the study of magic as a way to further the capabilities of his trickery. It was then he found the deep love for illusion magic and its potential uses for pranks.

He then joined the college and flew through the ranks, outwitting those around him. He participated in The Haze once, though he fell out right before the Grand Challenge. The next time it came around, Oscar blew everyone else away, winning his seat before any of the other schools had finished. He then once again grew bored of his capabilities and set out to create Diggs. Currently, that has kept him interested enough that he hasn't chased down some new idea.

"Too many wizards think that everything has to be done with magic. I tell you now, if you take one thing away from me as a professor, remember this: magic is not the only source of trickery. An illusion of a wall is not as good as an actual wall. You need to use what already exists and what you can create without magic first. The spells come after, when the illusion has already been built, to make it into an even grander trick."
- Oscar Zoroaster, during a lecture

Necromancy: Skuld:

Skuld [Male Human Necromancer]
Known as The First - it is rumored that he is the first lich to ever have existed (making him centuries and centuries old), though if he is even a lich has not been proven
Has no qualms going to any means necessary to further his research
Part of the original council, has never been upseated
Spends all of his time studying - rarely seen (only takes no more than 3 personal pupils, many of which turn up dead for unknown reasons)

Skuld is a dark man with an even darker history. However, the details of his past before the council's creation have been forgotten by most. Astoroth, who is only one of the Nine to rival his age and experience, and Pythia, who spent many years researching it, are the only two wo have any clue who Skuld is (or used to be), and the transmuter is only willing to hint at it, though it is always with a dreadful shiver, with Pythia hiding the information for Skuld's sake, whom she believes has changed.

The necromancer usually attends meetings by a proxy spell and has even held his seat against the Grand Challenge in the same way. He dislikes the council but understands its necessity and also enjoys the research benefits of having access to the Library. Many a time, he has been accused of participating in evil activities, though he has always been able to shrug off any real evidence.

"How fortunate for you to approach. Subject count is low."
- Skuld, being attacked by a group of religious crusaders

Transmutation: Astoroth:

Astoroth [Male Elf Transmuter]
Part of the original council, lost his seat only once, which was regained 10 years later (when he merged Ixis)
Tends to change his form pretty common, though always appearing with a signature wide brim hat
Always comfortable in any setting and even with things are dire, tends to take everything in stride

Astoroth is a happy fellow who enjoys puzzles and riddles. He almost always has a story for anyone to listen. He and Prospero are the only two of the Nine who have a genuine friendship that is not based around their position as council members.

Before the creation of the council, Astoroth spent most of his time learning about other sources of magic and trying to copy their effects into his own branch. His favorite time was spent learning from the druids, in which, during his long hours of study, he would give the animals in the forests human-like characteristics and enjoy their company. He has since taking a liking to this, and usually can be seen with some exotic creature who has been gifted the ability to speak, among other things.

Though it is not confirmed (as Astoroth only gives a subtle smile and a knowing wink on the matter), it is suspected that familiars (most notably ravens) that speak Common are somehow Astoroth's doing.

He approached the three that became Ixis, during a fight that might have left none of them standing, after his relatively brief upseating, and offered a way for all of them to attain the seat they so desperately wanted.

"I believe we should cut out early today. I hear a teacup calling my name. No, really - I just remembered I left him in the drawer. He hates it when I do that. Class dismissed."
- Astoroth, in the middle of a lecture

Universal: Myrddin Wyllt:

Myrddin Wyllt [Male Elf Universalist]
Though he gives off the appearance of madness, is quite clever and is valued as an fellow member amongst the council
Entered the Fracture (a crack in the universe, is the source of all arcane magic in the realm)
Refers to himself in third person

Myrddin Wyllt was a brilliant and very promising wizard long ago. He was one of the first students at Tashgar College, and his extraordinary mind couldn't attach itself to just one subject. So, he studied them all.

Despite his tireless work, constantly learning as much as he could about every aspect of magic (becoming a pupil to both Astoroth and Skuld at differing times), he never found himself ever straying from his desire for wizardry. It was only until he first achieved the height of Council of Nine (at the young age [in terms of humans] of 27) that he was told of the Fracture. He immediately dedicated himself to unlocking all of its mysteries.

However, after a decade of dedicated research and experiments, he found he could neither replicate nor even identify the cause of the Fracture. In a final attempt in which he was willing to die, with a completely sound mind, he entered the Fracture.

Before him, only one mortal had done so, a paladin of a long forgotten god, and he had never returned. Myrddin, however, emerged seconds later. He had aged over four decades in those few moments and had obviously lost a part of his mind. While his brilliance was, if anything, improved, his being was forever altered, sporting large glowing scars all over his body and a broken personality.

The two of the Nine present at the time, Astoroth and Skuld, have very differing reactions to this. The former, who has tried (with Myrddin's permission) numerous times to fix his now misshapen body with his masterful transmutation magic, looks at Myrddin with a sadness; Skuld simply can't wait for him to die, wanting his body for research.

"Too many wizards, weak mages, can't get through The Haze for a specialty, poor them, because of some brighter, more clever person-people bests them in wits. Then they think they can just take Myrddin's seat away from him. Myrddin sees them thinking, thinking of Universal magics as a fall back. It is fun, to go to the Grand Challenge, for Myrddin, because of this. Wipes those silly smirks right off of those poor wizards' faces."
- Myrddin Wyllt, to Astoroth


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Cranewings, that is complete and total metagaming. Every character you play ALWAYS carrying silver because you encountered a werewolf years ago in some long forgotten campaign is metagaming.

I'm going to defend them on this one. They're not noobs. They just don't go onto forums and research strategies. They don't care about min-maxing or even optimizing - they play PF to roleplay characters and adventure. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect this from your average PF player, and the CR system should definitely consider what sort of DR is acceptable at what level, because you can't seriously expect every party to have some way of handling it - otherwise, why even have the DR in the first place?

I'll ask you don't try to label my players after a single post not even related to their skill. It comes off as... elitist.


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I would NOT recommend trying to keep playing behind his back. For one, this is incredibly passive aggressive, and things like that tends to escalate - you are betraying his trust when you do this (which is much worse than telling him you can't game with him anymore), and it will be a much more personal attack than just asking him to stop coming to sessions.

I would find another medium the two of you (and maybe your other friends) enjoy and that he doesn't act up with; it might be a sport, video games, or some sort of hobby, ect. Be proactive about doing this stuff with him, so you make sure you get across the notion that in no way is this affecting your friendship with him. It will be easier to talk to him about it if he doesn't think you are trying to boot him because you don't like him. It will also help if your other friends are on board with this plan, because, again, you don't want to seem like you're excommunicating him from the group - it's just Pathfinder that is the problem.

The last thing you need to make sure you do is try to talk through these issues and try to see if you can help resolve them.

A little tidbit about something I had to deal with recently:

I worked with a guy named Justin. He is a good ol' country boy (I live in Tennessee, so this isn't uncommon) - dipped, hunted, camo jacket, the works. He is a swell guy and really funny, been married for about a year now.. I went over to his place a few times, threw a couple of beers back and played MW3 with him and a few other coworkers.

When I play video games, my competitive side really comes out, and I like to mess around with people I'm playing with. Even if they're on my team, I will joke around and poke fun if they do worse than me. My swearing also goes up, but that's not relevant.

So I started dogging on him when he would lose, and I found out quickly the guy would go into a rage if I did it too much. Of course, I stopped, but the damage was done - the guy was irate for the rest of the night. The next time I came over, I wasn't sure if that was just a bad night the time before, but I wanted to see, so I threw out one little joke, and the same reaction: serious anger.

I ended up just talking to him about it, and it turns out he was having some serious marriage issues. He had found out his wife had lied to him pretty constantly about things she was doing, but he didn't have it in him to confront her about it. He said he almost didn't want to find out what was going on, because he was worried she was cheating.

Currently, they finally have talked about things, and they both deleted their Facebooks to remove temptations, and I no longer work with him, so I have no idea how things are going.

Anyway, point is, you ought to try to work out things with him before you just kick him. The fact that he doesn't accept criticism is an indicator that he has some issues going on outside of the realm of what the criticism is for.


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Irontruth wrote:
Gauss wrote:

For me it is pretty simple:

A +2 <ability type> enhancement bonus is really another way of saying a +1 <ability type> enhancement bonus to the ability modifer score.

+1 ability modifier should cost X amount. In this case for it is 4,000gp for the first +1, 16,000gp for the second +1 and 36,000gp for the third +1 (all of the same ability score).

To me, trying to get a +0.5 ability modifier is trying to game the system in order to get a +1 for less money.

I will not allow +1 ability score enhancement bonuses in my game.

- Gauss

P.S. I will admit odd numbers are mostly useless except as prerequisites.

This is a pretty sound argument and I'm not opposed to it. I think it illustrates one reason why I think the original attribute numbers should become a thing of the past. You use them to generate your character, but after that the only thing kept is the

bonus number. The attribute boost at levels 4, 8, 12, etc would alternate between a classes primary stat and their secondary stats. At 4th level, a Fighter could boost their Str/Dex/Con, then at 8th level they could increase Int/Wis/Cha. Alternating back and forth.

This is essentially what happens in the Dragon Age RPG (PnP version).

That sounds awful.


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Ashiel wrote:

I'm more interested in the why. Can you, please, explain why you think it is not a good thing?

If Paizo puts out a book that has an item in it that gives a +2 [any ability score] bonus to characters whose name starts with a letter from A-M, do you think that is good design theory? Only half the people benefit from the item, it takes up page space, and frankly, it makes little to no sense.

It's not really that much different - half the people to wear an odd numbered bonus item receive no benefit. By mandating the even number, you maintain the situation in which every item that has an ability score boosting effect has the SAME effect for EVERYONE - which is the very intent of the item in the first place: to grant X effect.


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A bit too many posts to read, I just skimmed, so I apologize for saying anything already said.

I do not think that charging something as small as 10% is an issue. I think up to 20% would be fine before I'd think I would even say anything.

I just now took a craft feat on a character for the first time, and though we might not play that game again because of unrelated reasons, I've been trying to figure out how I'd do it. I decided the most fair way would be to take a small fee out of the party loot fund, maybe based on time.

I want to respond to a few points against that, under the assumption the wizard in question spreads his creations around to everyone, including himself:

1) Charging for a crafting feat is synonymous with charging for any other feat or ability (people have referenced charging per cure spell).

This simply isn't true. Mathematically speaking, even if the crafter charged 99% of the market cost, then the party is still benefiting as a whole, though obviously not very much. Pricing your items for party members at 60% is a decent boost to the party's power.

Plus, think about the players. Fighter spends a feat on Power Attack or Weapon Focus or whatever, he gets to feel that in combat, hitting more often. The party might get a similar good feeling when he does his job well because of the feat, but it's not the same thing. A crafting feat offers access to items that they couldn't otherwise afford to the entire party. Those items will become part of that other character. If the crafter instead chose a metamagic feat or Spell Penetration, then it reverts back to the situation with the fighter, where the feeling of the use of the feat is mostly contained within the user.

That might not be the best worded, but what can you do?

2) The crafter could only sell his wares to NPCs at the same it costs to make it, so by selling it for more, he is robbing the players.

This is an issue with the craft rules, really. It would be broken to allow players to sell crafted items, created at half cost, for more than that, because that's basically infinite money (which, given, isn't actually that hard to do anyway). It makes little sense to think that an NPC can create an item and charge 2000g, but a PC can create the same item and only charge 1000g.

However, that's how it works. But that doesn't mean it's fair for the players to exploit this silly yet necessary rule. It's metagaming, to be entirely honest.

3) The party doing chores and favors for the crafter is much more acceptable than having to actually pay gold for it.

I don't really understand this one. At all. Time is money, and that is incredibly true in a game. I'm surprised people even said this. I can spend X amount of time doing whatever for the crafter, or I can spend the same amount of time earning money or whatever. There's not really a difference.


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Try to get some ship rope. Or create a pulley system. Or just dig into the side of the hole and form a slope.

Sidebar: Anytime anyone says anything about something going down a hole, I remember my Potty Years.


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Cheapy wrote:
You're trading your Standard action for their Move action up until greater dirty trick. That's...not so great.

I've never even used Dirty Trick, but this doesn't sound that bad, really, when it is just the party versus one boss.

4 PCs = 4 Standards, 4 Moves, 4 Swifts.
1 Baddie = 1 Standard, 1 Move, 1 Swift.

That becomes..

4 PCs = 3 Standards, 4 Moves, 4 Swifts.
1 Baddie = 1 Standard, 1 Swift.

Seems pretty legit to me.

But like I said, no experience with it. This is just mindless commentary.


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(I am going to refrain from telling you to reroll. If you choose to do that, that's fine, but you didn't come here to be told to do something you already know you can do, I don't think.)

Anyone else find it silly that a person with <2 HP> and <6 CON> is recommended to take <Toughness> as a feat? (purely from a thematic standpoint, anyway)

Despite this, it is definitely a very good choice for you to have. It's more than doubling your current HP, and it'll just keep on giving.

I would also consider Improved Initiative. You're not wanting to ever be anywhere near melee combat under anyone else's terms (see below), and if you can help it, wanting to shield yourself from any ranged abilities (magical or otherwise).

If you are playing a melee, -=AC!=- You will need as much as this and saves as you can get. Get the best armor you can, grab the first cloak of resistance that drops (surely your team won't care that much). If you go first and think you can immediately remove some threats, do so, but don't get surrounded. If there is a big baddie around, wait to engage him with your party - the less time you spend in threatened area, the better, so you will need superb focus fire from your party.

If you are playing a ranged martial (archer, thrower, etc.), then you are looking at wanting to keep moving in the earlier levels. Keep lots of distance, use your range advantage constantly. When you start to get multiple attacks per round, hopefully you will have some decent gear, so you can consider full attacking, but weigh that option carefully.

If you are playing any sort of a caster, then defensive spells are your best friend. Most arcane casters can boost their defenses respectably, though with limited duration, so consider when you might need a spell and when you might just need to sit a fight out to conserve your resources.

Most importantly, make sure to talk to your party and let them know that you are going to be a scrawny little bugger and will need to lean on them for support. You can still pull your weight, but they need to understand what your weakness is so that they can help you overcome it.


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It's stacking a spell effect. It's not really different from having more than one Bull's Strength - you just reset the duration after each spell cast.

I am more interested in how to deal with the spells that are supposed to come into play at the end of Time Stop. You might say it comes into play when after the first Time Stop or at the end of the chained Time Stop.

No clue. Never even seen Time Stop cast in a game, tbh. Not a lot of experience with it.


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I don't like to metagame. I don't like seeing others metagaming. However, as a player, it's super hard to not go on the defensive when the GM asks for a Sense Motive while talking to a NPC or a Perception when you are in any given area. Yes, you can simply say that at this point it is up to the player to not cheat, but as I said, it's hard, and I think controlling this can be very rewarding factor in roleplay - makes that betrayal or that ambush seem that much better, from a storytelling point of view.

I have a few problems with the ways people handle this. And if you intend to pick apart my examples, then I ask to not bother. I am not the best at explaining things, so try to understand what my point is, don't reply specifically to an example without a basis against the argument.
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1) Passive score of (x + skill). X is usually 10.

That means that roughly 45% of the time, your passive ability is better than your active. It's likely you might bring up "Ever stared in the fridge for the milk, and though it's sitting right there, you just can't register it's in front of you?" Yes, that happens. But not even close to 45% of the time. That might be like 5% of the time, if that, and that would translate to rolling a 1 every now and then on my Perception roll. As I said, this isn't that bad, but it does allow for some strange situations ("As you are sitting at the bar, relaxing from the day's events, the gambler's, whom you are playing a friendly game against, eyes seem to be darting back and forth constantly. Something seems up, he appears worried." vs "You scan over the gambler, unsure of his truthiness (Colbert ftw), assessing his facial expressions and body language. He does not appear to be lying.").
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2) GM rolling the dice for the players.

This one is probably the most legit, but it does three things I don't like. One, it still brings about the same issue that exists if the player rolls it - knowing something's going on. This can be mitigated somewhat by rolling random dice at random times throughout sessions. My first DM did that as a scare tactic. Two, you constantly have to keep up with skill totals for all your players. This can be simple, if they hit a high point and it never goes up except once a level, but if you have conditional modifiers (rangers and the like), it becomes more of an issue and possibly gum up the works. Three, and this one is conditional, if you are in the Fudging Is Okay group, then you might be tempted to fudge just so something has a certain outcome - specifically what fudging is for, but having more opportunities to fudge means you will fudge more (and while I am in the above mentioned group, I do not think you should use fudging as a constant support to your story - it should be used lightly and occasionally as a way of safeguarding the fun for the players). While it's true you can fudge DCs instead of rolls if you use a different method, thus having the same results, sometimes it won't really be possible, such as just really high rolls. That situation is eliminated using this.
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3a) Taking down a list of passive numbers, rolled by the players or GM, at the beginning of any given period of time (usually each session), and referring to the list whenever necessary.

This one is probably the most bulletproof, as it keeps the randomness of rolls, prevents any unintentional metagaming by the players, and allows the players themselves to roll. My biggest issue is how this interacts with conditional modifiers (again, I'm looking at you, rangers - though there are others), which is similar to what was explained above. The second issue is what to do if after the last number on the list. You can cycle the list, but that's restricting the range of possibilities, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I like having lots of possible outcomes - if you don't, then simply ignore that point. Not even to mention that you might have a set roll very low, despite any modifiers to the skill, simply due to a short streak of bad luck.
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3b) Taking down a list of passive numbers, using a an unordered base roll array (such as all {1-20}, or {5, 10, 15, 20}, or any set you want), and using them when needed.

I am probably most partial to this, probably using {1-20}. Recycling a list isn't as much of a problem in this, as it's a fair base across all players; though if you don't use a complete array, then you are restricting your possible outcomes in this way as well. There is a little more bookkeeping involved in this method, which is never a plus as a GM who already has a ton of stuff to watch. To mix the list, you can simply roll a dx (x being the number of numbers in your array) until you land each number, writing them in the order they are rolled. I would probably recommend rolling up a separate array for each party member, so as to not have either everyone or no one pick up on something at the same time. The biggest issue I see with this is it takes a decent amount of prep time for a smaller part of the game, and it mostly lands on the GM to keep track of everything.
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Actually, now that I think about it, the conditional modifiers apply to any situation of using a passive skill without the player's knowledge. It's not particularly a huge issue, but it does yield some extra number crunching for the GM and can easily slow down conversations or other game play.

My group simply allows the players to roll any skill check when required, whether passive or not.

Feel free to counter any of my arguments. I am not at all set in my ways on the above, that's just how I currently see it.

tl;dr So to bring us to the actual thread title, are there any other ways not mentioned here that you use or have heard of for passive skills (most notably Perception and Sense Motive)?


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So, one time, during a module, fighting the BBEG for the last time, my rogue friend died. He leaned back and pulled out his laptop and left us to our final fight. After we FINALLY disposed of the villain (vampire.. took forever), he starts commenting on how strong he was and referencing the book - stuff like "Man, that guy has a lot of sneak attack dice." He wasn't trying to hide that he was actively reading the module now that we had finished.

The DM got pissed and yelled at him, saying that if he was going to be reading stuff and telling everyone information like this, that he wasn't going to play with him anymore.

This is a good example of how NOT to handle this.

I recommend you talk to him outside of the game, away from the table, just the two of you. Tell him you think he might be doing it, but be willing to accept a denial. If he does deny it, simply continue to change the adventure. Or kick him out. Whatever.


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Let me tell you the story of the goliath and the assassin. This was in 3.5e.

The goliath, a dragon shaman/barbarian, had two weapons at this point in his life: his beloved large greataxe and his own primal might. His friends had any distance fighting covered through long range weapons or magic, so he usually spent those sort of battles just defending the squishies.

One day, while we were walking next to a forest, centaurs appeared! We fought with all our might, for surely this was just a random encounter. Handily dispatching the enemies, we began looting. The goliath found a large compound bow - no one but him in the part could use it, but it wasn't even magical, so we figured we'd just discard it. He took it, just in case. He was tired of sitting around when the enemy was out of reach.

Not too long after that, an assassin suddenly attacked us from the trees! We began using our ranged abilities until we weakened her enough that she needed to flee. She began dashing through the tree tops, at a speed we weren't likely to catch up to.

Well, the goliath remembered his bow. He pulled it out, knocked an arrow, aimed into the mass of trees, past his first range increment, at the tiny figure darting away...

[At this point, the player was mainly doing this as roleplay; after all, he had never used a bow nor had he really intended to get a lot of use out of it. However, he rolled the die - 20. Automatic hit in our group, and he confirmed the crit.]

The assassin wasn't even carrying loot worth having, but that encounter gave us much more than that: the knowledge that every character should walk around with some form of ranged weapon, even if it's mundane and crappy, just in case. My current character has a longbow that he's had since level 1, that I have used maybe once, and to no avail, but I will never stop carrying it.


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82. Changeling
56. Minotaur
8. Orc
81. Warforged
34. Kitsune

I have limited world building experience, but late is better than never. Plus, my races don’t seem to mesh in any way. But I have a thing for random stuff, so I can’t pass this up. Not going to use any ideas I’ve personally had before.

It's a lot longer than I had thought it would be..

Spoiler:

So you’re interested in Thaves, are you? Well, that’s quite a tale.

You know that the changelings, minotaur, orcs, warforged, and kitsune make up most of the populace. Well, before any of them were even thought of, Thaves was as it is today. But we should start at the beginning.

As is their way, the Creators, also known as the Elder Gods, well, created. They lifted the mountains, filled the sea, and painted the sky. Though they worked tirelessly, they knew that those that would be raised to inhabit this world would eventually destroy their creation, as they always did before. And so the land of Thaves was formed, holding vast resources that renew quicker than in other lands – trees mature quicker, crops are healthier, even the water always seems to be pure. With natural shields such as steep mountains and treacherous seas, the Creators hoped it would be protected from the inevitable warfare and devastation that would originate from the lesser beings.

Once the physical world was complete, the Creators spawned the gods and gave them authority over their respective domains. They left them with only two commands: to create life, and Thaves was to remain empty until only the stronger races were left and required it as a resource. The gods agreed and set to work.

It is during this time of initial creation that the minotaur and the orcs were created. Both created with a love of battle, both races became tribal and warred constantly with each other and other races. But you probably are familiar with that part.

Some say the gods are unable to make mistakes, but most don’t realize, the world was young when they made their first. Three of them, what we know as the Triad, worked together, created a powerful race, known as the Aurel, which was far superior to what the rest had made. As was the Triad’s intent, the Aurel were the first to raise an empire, ruling the land for hundreds of years. Some of the other gods looked at their own weaker races, and divine jealousy was brought into the world. Without the Triad’s knowledge, these other gods created a race to hunt the Aurel – thus the doppelgangers were born. With their ability to catch their prey unaware, the Aurel began to die out quickly.

As the threat of losing their empire grew, they had to begin to consider if they must give dominion to the lesser races, so as to not spread too thin. However, overflowing with pride and stubbornness to relent, the Aurel instead created the powerful constructs with intelligence to defend them.

Now, I know you might be wondering if I’ve forgotten you asked about Thaves, but don’t fret, I’m getting there.

The dopplegangers were not suited to fight the constructs – they simply weren’t designed for it, and after decades of hunting only what came naturally to them, they ironically didn’t possess the ability to change their style of hunting. They slowly stopped and grew complacent, with many taking on permanent disguises and settling for a life within society. And thus the changelings began to appear.

Despite their predators backing down, the Aurel weren’t in the clear. They had been thinned enough that they could no longer hold the other races beneath their boot. The lesser beings worked together and began to overthrow those that had enslaved them since the beginning of time. The Aurel Empire grew smaller and smaller, and fewer of the race remained alive. Their constructs were indeed the only reason they lasted as long as they did, but with no natural way of reproducing and dying left and right in battles, they began to become extinct. The Aurel’s last act of desperation was to give the constructs full sentience and the ability to create their own, with the hope that they would acknowledge that it was the Aurel that gave them life and thus should be protected. As you might already know, this didn’t work. The warforged saw themselves as allies to the lesser races: dominated and enslaved for years. The Aurel lost their empire and scattered.

Now, the Triad didn’t like this turn out one bit. They had almost lost their prized possession. They wanted to raise the Aurel back up, but they knew that they wouldn’t last against the others if they were set on the world to build again from scratch. So they looked towards Thaves – you thought I’d forgotten, eh? – and hoped that their creations could build back up unhindered until they were strong enough to fight full force.

The very moment the first Aurel stepped on Thaves land, the other gods realized the Triad was willing to break the Creators’ commands. And so they followed suite. They brought the minotaur and the orcs first, to disrupt their attempts to build back up. Bloodthirsty and very practiced at war, the two races continued to fight each other and the Aurel. Then the warforged and the changelings followed, drawing upon their natural dislike for the Aurel. These two were meant to be more organized and methodical in their takedowns.

Now, you might be thinking the gods just picked up some people and dropped them in Thaves, but this was when the Tunnel of Dogr was created by the Triad, the giant cavernous path through the Dogr mountain range, from Thaves to the rest of the world. And this was known as the Age of Visions, when the gods gave numerous prophecies to the races, bringing them to Thaves of their own volition to appease the deities.

One of the gods neutral in the divine struggle looked on with sadness as Thaves, a place the Creators had wished to remain a sanctuary against war, was immediately filled with constant bloodshed, spurning from a lasting bitterness. She created the kitsune, a race of peace, to keep some measure of the notion of Thaves alive.

Now, it didn’t take long for the four races to remove Aurel presence once again. The Triad, with no place to turn, gave up on them and tried to make peace with the other gods. After countless ages of hate, they were left as outcasts. Their only hope was to remain a team, and they still do today. The other group eventually faded off to focusing on their own domains, and so only the one true allegiance is left. Interesting, how the ones widely disliked are the ones who still watch each other’s backs, regardless of their beliefs. But that’s not really relevant, is it?

Thaves was left with the five races who inhabit it today. The kitsune created a republic that still exists today, with the warforged and changelings (who were already used to living in structured civilization) almost seamlessly blending with them, creating a new society.

It was a while longer before the orcs and minotaur stopped fighting each other. However, with the prevalence of the republic, they were forced to either give in to living in cities or bond together and maintain their tribal lifestyle. Well, they liked living off the land, I suppose, because they grudgingly agreed. Over time, however, their hunger for battle has faded (relatively, anyway – you know how they are still), and while they still maintain their own land and rulers within Thaves, they don’t fight that much with the republic anymore.

Now that the dust in Thaves is finally starting to settle, it seems the nations that have risen in the other lands might have their eye on us and our superior land. I hear the republic is already in talks with the tribes about an alliance, to defend against this foreign threat. It’s really too bad. The Creators, with all their wisdom and power, seemed to have made an area that is going to be unable to avoid war.


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From http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#paralysis:

Quote:


Paralysis

Some monsters and spells have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. Paralysis from poison is discussed in the Afflictions section.

A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.

A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.

And once again, I am not saying Channel Energy is a purely mental action. I am classifying its two parts (the act of calling on divine help and presenting the holy symbol) as purely mental and physical, respectively. Obviously if one part cannot be completed, all of it fails, so no, you can't do it while paralyzed. I've said this since my first post, yet you keep acting like I'm saying you can Channel while paralyzed.

EDIT: If the Oracle of Life doesn't need a holy symbol, I would let them Channel while paralyzed, based on my classification.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:

Sure, and assuming nothing happens, you might indeed be justified in doing so. But if in your haste you run a guy off the road and his car is totalled as a result? He's going to recommend you poop your pants instead.

Any time there are multiple people involved, it pays to make sure they're all being heard, despite mcbobbo's thinly-veiled claim that most people are barely-sentient zombie sheep and should be treated as such.

At what point did running someone off the road become an issue? It was being ticketed for speeding. You are moving the goalposts here.

And any decent people, once they understood that the situation was indeed dire, would stop being angry.


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Elthbert's right, INT x 10 = IQ is the only guideline that really has existed. There's a few problems with this, though.

IQ is not a measure of your knowledge. An IQ test is designed to test how you analyze problems, ignore unnecessary info, put the right pieces together. In essence, to think critically. And how fast you do it. I have a friend who is incredibly educated, yet speaks slowly and gets stuck on his thoughts all the time. He would have a low IQ as per the test, yet a high intelligence in the game.

IQ does not allow for savants. I have a cousin who is intellectually disabled (that's the new mental retardation as per law- go ahead and change your lingo), yet he reads books in a fraction of the time most do. I've also met a fella who was also mentally handicap, but he could tell you how many matches are in a box of matches by turning the box upside down onto the floor. Before they hit the floor.

Intelligence can be a 20 at first level based on 18 max and +2 racial. A 200 IQ is commonly argued upon. While there are those in today's world that have been "verified" as having that high (I think an Asian physicist has like a 210 is the highest recorded, but I might be wrong), the fact of the matter is there is simply too small a pool of evidence. Anything over 130, and you're already down to 2% of the population to look at. Every point you go up is dropping it more. Because of this, even those who have taken the test and been verified are still the subject of debate among psychologists. And this is before you get magic items and buffs and crap out the ying yang and have a wizard running around with 40 INT or some crap. There would literally not be an IQ scale for it, and if you just said something like, "Well, he's got an IQ of 400," assuming that sort of intelligence doesn't cripple him, he would literally know everything that would happen everywhere. Omniscient. Due to pure logical reasoning.

The above point wraps this up in the best way: IQ shouldn't be tied to intelligence for a simple reason: characters can get intelligence much higher than humanly possible - or even less than that, they can get it too high for the player to control. If a player with an IQ of 120 (exceptionally smart) is playing a wizard with an IQ of 180, he literally cannot perceive the world in the same way and the character is almost unplayable, in terms of consistency.

As far as your situation goes, I would just remember that there are more stats involved in a character's mental abilities than intelligence. Wisdom does a lot for a character or companion. And being trained a trick, such as attacking anything you're attacking, is probably a wisdom thing, not intelligence.


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jorgenporgen wrote:

That depends entirely on the availability of monster corpses (for more HD per individual skeleton/zombie) and what kinds of enemies you meet. By RAW, the monsters you can create with Create Undead are pretty lame, and whether they keep class levels or not is up to the GM. Because of higher AC, normal human zombies, skeletons and ghouls will be largely ineffective, and most enemies with magic weapons and attacks can decimate the paltry shadows from Create Greater Undead. We had an undead-creating in CoT and he sucked because almost all corpses were humanoids. Those who weren't were undead beforehand, and he never managed to control them, except some shadows.

That said, going all-out necromancy isn't really covered by the RAW, as it's mostly concerned with what "good" PCs would do. My advice is to go over this with your GM and find sensible house-rules. It's a great concept, but there are many things that should be worked out (for example: How the hell is he going to hide his troupe of undeads when in a civilized place?).

Classic Horrors Revisted p.56:
Although some common forms are listed below, in many cases

these variant abilities may be applied to either skeletons or
zombies, unless common sense dictates otherwise (such as a
gasburst skeleton). Likewise, except as noted, the following
variations can be stacked with one another—it’s possible to
have an exploding acid skeleton, for example.

Animate Dead spell:
The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to
remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of
creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are
destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again. Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you
can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a
single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.
...
Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact
corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is
made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse.
The corpse must be that of a creature with a physical anatomy.

Variant Skeleton from Bestiary:

Numerous variant skeletons exist, such as those whose bones burn with an unending fire and those who drip with gore and reassemble themselves over time. Both of these variant skeletons can be created using animate dead, but they count as twice their normal number of Hit Dice per casting. Once controlled, they count normally against the controller's limit.

While the Create Undead spells allow you to create specific types of undead that are stat'd out as much stronger than the skeleton and zombie entries, skeleton and zombies are applying templates specifically, meaning they (for the most part) work entirely off of the base creature. The variants allow for much stronger undead than the base template, though it comes at the cost of half of their allowed hit die per undead.

However, it specifically states that they count only equal to their hit die for amount that can be controlled (that is, 4 HD per CL normally). It means you get double the number of undead with abilities that they can't otherwise have. Having a magus skeleton with 5 HD (magus is the variant that allows spellcasting) can do be much more useful than a skeleton with 10 HD.

You can mix it up, though, and have all the buff melees and variant utility ones you want.

As far as transporting them, things such as Bags of Holding and Portable Holes are generally seen as able to carry corpses. For your companion, if you didn't want him to go away, you could just throw a robe on him and order him to not speak.

I designed a 14th level Undead Lord for a game that never happened once, and I had a Skeleton Champion Orc Barbarian as a companion who carried around a coffin on his back. The coffin was linked to a demi-plane with permanency cast on it (which is only like around 18,000g) where he kept his undead. When a fight broke out, the companion slammed the coffin down and opened it, then protected the cleric. The undead would shamble out as he ordered them to, and he'd cast spells as he needed.


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I do agree with Mok as well.

C-M D (or some form of it) has existed pretty much since 3e and discussions on it has come up time and again.

Don't take this the wrong way, but 4e actually has done a decent job at rectifying this problem. I do not like 4e pretty much at all (I've given it chances multiple times and just cannot get into it).

If you haven't tried it yet, the system gives every class powers that vary in strength - the weaker the power, the more usable it is, and the stronger it is, the less you can use it. By compartmentalizing the powers, they can compare powers side-by-side and make it more balanced. It's a good design theory, but in practice, it just makes you feel like all the classes are the same. It feels like a video game - press this button, now this one. Despite this, the classes are definitely more in line with one another.

I think Paizo is on a better track than Wizards; you look at what barbarians can do now compared to 3.5e, and you can easily see the difference.


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I want to help, but it honestly sounds like you should just ditch the program. It's holding back your creativity and options within the game.

In 3.5e, the archetypes were sometimes just a feat swap here or there, but Paizo has done the awesome thing of making them feel more like alternate characters by giving them abilities that were created for this. While this is good for the game, it's bad for a limited computer program.

My suggestion: find a new program or just use paper and pen.