Ravenot's page

Ravenot wrote:

But I would like to shoot for a system so simple that it doesn't need lookup tables.

Even with an extremely simple system, I would want a table. It's the easiest way to present a scaling system, and a great aid to memorization. I've been working with a game system written by someone who didn't like tables, and it's a nightmare! Paragraph after paragraph of information buried in sentence structure, and if it were backed up with a handful of tables, I wouldn't have to field a thousand questions from players.

Fair enough. My point still stands, i'd like it simple enough so tables aren't a necessity, but for those who prefer them I wouldn't begrudge a few tables on the system.

Weird. Seen the forums do this a couple of times now. Searched for the poster and found the full post under his recent posts tab...

Hello,

I´m running the the finale of Fortress of the stone giants this friday. I plan to use the new Elemental Specialist (earth) from the APG for Mokmurian because I think it fits very well. Has someone done his stats (especially spell selection) with this specialisation?

I haven't seen anyone mention this previously, but i think it's a great idea!

Kadeity has already stated it, but I'd like to reitterate; Tables are good things.

Tables similar to those used for magic items (substituting gp cost for word cost) would make it much easier of on-the-fly calculations. Knowing you have x-points to burn, you could look up the basics of your spell with ease. Detailing would follow in descriptions after (much like the feats are laid out).

I also have to agree with iZombie. Seperating the effects from the energy type allows for much more versitility. Some effects may need to be limited, or explained away by players thematically (a burning effect from acid is continual corrosion, from positive energy it's holy ravagings, etc), but there's no reason a home-brewed fire spell can't stagger as per frost fingers.

The Nova issue is pretty well delt with by caps (which Psionics lacked horridly). Since the points for a word are limited by the spell level, that's not really an issue. There's no reason not to burn all of a 5th level spell's 16 points while casting it.

I agree with your second and third points, but the first, i'm not a fan of. I do like the spirit of it: Easy, on-the-fly calculations. But I would like to shoot for a system so simple that it doesn't need lookup tables.

One suggestion I like is removing the "point values" and making a straight +/- spell level adjustment for various effects or larger values on the sliding scale. Just a quick example, things like Target: Self are -1 level, Target: Touch is 0, Target: Ranged touch is +1, and so on. Using this example, i'd be able to recreate Mage Armor with Force Armor +1, Target: Self -1, Duration: Hours/level +1. 1+1-1= spell level 1. But wait, I want to add +2 Str for +1 level, for a second level spell. If balance issues arise, a flat +1 level fee could be assigned to secondary effect words (Making my example a level 3 spell with the additional +Str effect).

More powerful effects would be worth more +levels to add up. Straight and clean like this, no tables would be needed. Just add up the levels, use the appropriate spell slot, and go. No level values would be much higher than 9 (unless you ad -level modifying words) since that's the maximum spell slot level. Players won't feel "cheated" for not using up every last point they can, searching for any extra effect to squeeze into the spell and find ways to optimize a spell mathematically. And given proper breakdown of all variables of a spell into individual word components (Target, duration, effect(s), each bumpable on a sliding scale for +level modifiers), control and fine tuning of spells to customize them would be a cinch.

Caineach has the right idea. A scaling system tied to the spell levels would suit a simple system like this fine as well, while still giving tons of options.

And reading further down, i see Jon Otaguro 428 beat me to bringing up the +level instead of points suggestion as well. Great minds think alike, eh?

The more I've thought about this, the more I believe such a system could be the answer to give both simplicity and maximum customization. I just hope Paizo's goals for the Words of Power system are similar.

Just my input and opinion on 'directing' the players a certain direction, if I may. Hopefully this advice may help improve your game. If the players are missing clues or failing to put two-and-two together, I try to find alternative ways to encourage the party to piece together what they need on their own rather than handing it to them and railroading them toward an inevitable conclusion regardless of their own actions. Lay the path, but don't push them down it.

Otherwise iv'e found that your players will start developing a sense of no consequences and entitlement. Who cares about sneaking, diplomacy, or fact finding when you can stab everything first and ask questions later after you've absconded with all their loot? The players get the idea to grab all the treasure and exp that you can and wreck the hotel room because the next plot point will fall into their lap anyways because their just riding the rails.

Once you give a sense of consequence and unknown, the party will be much more careful and inquisitive. Instead of killing everything, they may be more open to questioning, fact finding, and thinking ahead. I feel that when the party earns their own way and figures out the next clue on their own, it gives a better sense of accomplishment and reward.

You can anticipate these things and help the party figure things out along on their own without handing it to them. I had a few stab-happy players who liked to kill anything that moved without actually questioning if what they were killing was the enemy or not. I wanted to try and keep the Clockwork Librarian in book 4 alive to assist the party (as they would need as much assistance in their research as they could get). As it was, i expected it to be slaughtered on the first round they saw it. I inserted the module Seven Swords of Sin between book 3 and 4 of Rise of the Runelords, and added a similar clockwork librarian to the module. As expected, they killed it within the first round, but were surprised when it died with little to no effort without being overly aggressive. When encountering the Librarian in book 4, they held their actions and observed it first to discover it's true purpose.

Now I could have just forgot about introducing the earlier Clockwork and cheated with the one in book 4 and not allowed it to die if attacked, but then i'd be removing direct consequence of their actions. If my players screw up or miss clues, they deal with the results. So i try to make their screw ups smaller and let them learn from them before they hit the bigger ones that matter. :)

I've made my group work hard for clues when they've dropped the ball and let things get screwed up. They're more efficient and careful as they go along now, which is great! They barely miss a thing now.

Hope that helps.

BTW: I love the scarecrow in their house idea. Keeps them on their toes! :D

Hey there folks,

There is definitely some solid feedback here that I will keep in mind going forward. Two quick points I want to make to the crowd...

1. The system is built off the framework of the existing spell slots because the power curve there is predictable and understood. The mapping of power increase is a lot easier and it is quite a bit simple to add on to existing classes in this way. Remember, we have a lot of classes that use spells and to make this system viable, It needs to be able to map to them all in the limited space we have to present this system.

2. We absolutely want to avoid the "nova" effect of a large pool of points that a spellcaster could spend very rapidly with overpowered effects. Its cool to have a little bit of this (see Word Burning), but opening it up across the board is not an option I am remotely willing to consider at this point.

So.. we have to have some restrictions, but I am beginning to agree that there needs to be a simpler way on a few fronts.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Jason, I agree 100% with both of your points. I see no reason why a sliding scale couldn't be implimented on the variables of words to consolidate the list and simplify it while still adhering to the spell slot framework; my feedback here always assumed to stay within that framework. Apologies if I've been unclear in getting that idea across.

I appreciate your work on the difficult system so far, I know I argue a lot of issues on it here but I'm attempting to be as constructive as possible. I really want to see this system succeed. Thanks for taking the time to participate in the discussions with your input on the boards!

Well said, iZOMBIE, my thoughts exactly.

Ravenot wrote:

Your entire first post of pretty much all good ideas.

I think the reason the designers have stuck with trying to shoehorn things in to specific spell slots is to eliminate the Psionics Nova effect.

If you allow things to be based on Caster level, even if they have to pay more for maximized abilities, most players will choose to fire off a half dozen big flashy spells per day at their maximum level, rather than have several tiers of available effects.

A 7th level Wizard, with no bonus spells/school spells what so ever, gets about 76 points per day, with a max of 13 points per cast. He would have no reason to not cast probably 4 or 5 big 11-13 point spells and then slip a few extra points in to a couple cantrips that are generally useful. When you consider that by 7th level, you start to get spells that can end encounters ( black tentacles, anyone?), why would you NOT sacrifice your 1st level spells that won't do a whole lot, and instead break out an encounter winner?

Sorry if this came off a bit negative, I think most of your ideas are actually quite good and I would like to see them at least tested out. I have to go to work now, but hopefully I can get back and discuss the good parts later.

Hmm, perhaps I was a bit unclear in describing a sliding scale system. I am not suggesting a point system where you can blow all your power for the day into one or two spells. I am in favor of still keeping your spell slots per day. A wizard would still have slots for low level spells only useable for crafted spells that total to that level equivalent or lower.

To clarify my suggestion on the sliding scale, It would serve only to replace the clunky system of having multiple words for the the same effect. The current alpha system of having multiple line words with different lengths and point costs, different fire words with different damage and so on, is hard to keep track of with multiple point costs and words to keep track of. Reducing the basic words to a sliding scale would serve to make things much simpler to keep track of, as you would have ONE word and a simple formula to keep track of the variable to achieve all of the effects that the current system takes half a dozen words for.

Point costs and/or level requirements could also slide with the variable of the sliding scale to keep the spell level of the crafted spell in line with its equivalent power. As long as its kept fast and simple.

I don't think incorporating it into the existing system is an issue. The classes can still abide by the same spell/level charts. You just have to craft spells that are equal or lower to the equivalent spell level slot. I don't see compatability as a whole as any major issue.

The complicated slowdown of spellmaking for spells that heavily restrict creativity or lack the tools to do so is the main drag. In fact, both of these issues are repeated across the spell example threads. There are handfulls of example spells posted that are corrected later as bieng the wrong spell level. It needs to be more straight forward to not bog down a game. I have also seen a large number of brilliant spells that are disallowed by the rules. Like summoning a fire elemental in an explosion of fire as a common example. As long as its level is at the appropriate point for its power, why not? I see no reason to restrict such things.

I was initially very excited when I first heard of the Words of Power system, and finally be capable of crafting my own spells. It brought to mind a sort of "sandbox" magic system.

After going over the playtest document, I'm a bit taken aback at the system. It seems very rigid and overly complicated, making spellcrafting custom spells more of a chore, and the end result wedged so hard within exact categories of what you can and cannot do, that it feels less custom and more like a stripped down compromise. What I would like to see is a simple system that flows to make spells quick on the fly without having to double check an obstacle course of point totals, limitations, and requirements that are difficult to keep track of in the middle of a fight. I would also like it to embrace the creativity capabilities, allowing for thousands of combinations of new spells. The current playtest has been released with the side note, "You won't be able to do everything you can with Words of Power that you can with normal spellcasting". My reply is simply, "Then why use a system that restricts us to limited spells?"

First is the complexity. I honestly think the best system is a sliding scale. Rather than having "Small/Medium/Large" lines, bursts, cones, etc, your maximum area of effect should scale with level. A burst would start with a 5 foot radius. Every other level the maximum radius increases by 5 feet, so that by 20th level you're flinging 50 foot radius bursts. Of course, this would be your maximum area of effect. A skilled spellcaster could still power it down and reduce the area of effect to any of the smaller radius that he knows. This reduces having to fiddle with Large/Med/Small mechanics for each target word. A single one to determine shape, then it scales with your level. Easy to figure out on the fly the sizes you can shape to. Costs could be scaled with higher areas as well, if needed for balance reasons, in exactly the same way.

Basic damage spells should also be treated the same. Instead of having a handfull of fire spells that all burn for different dice, just have ONE. Again, the damage would scale up as you level. A spellcaster can still put less spell energy into the spell and cast it with lower dice should he choose. Now, the only reason for multiple "fire" words would be for different "types" of fire, such as flame, lava, fire that was persistent, etc. Even non damage spells can benefit from scaling, such as a single Summon Servitor that scales with level.

A scaling system like this would go a long way to begin streamlining the system and make it simpler to work with.

The point system is a bit of a mess. Figuring out the points, then having to go back and figure out what level the spell is based on multiple criteria on number of words, point totals, etc... it's not /overly/ complex, but it defeats the fluidity of the system and can slow a combat turn to a crawl. I'm not overly excited about a point system for the words, but I don't have any superior suggestions handy at this point. At the very least, the level of the spell should be determined by it's total point cost. That's all, no other factors. Keep it easy and fast.

As for creativity, I see no reason for not including SCORES of words that cover everything from creation, to utility, sparkly effects, and moving things about. Give us the tools to create any sort of spell that we can think of. I would rather the Words of Power system do less DPS as a whole than standard spellcasting, if it meant I could have the capability of literally casting any kind of crazy spell I could think up. The spells don't necessarily have to have the capability to destroy worlds and move the cosmos, but they should be the players personal spells that they tinker, create, perfect, and OWN a part of.

Words of Power, as I see it currently, has HUGE potential, and I am genuinely eager to see what Jason Bulmahn and the rest of Paizo does with the system and how they develop it. As of it's current state in this Alpha, I see including it in my games as a GM only as a general framework that I would then use to heavily modify for my own houseruled system. As a player in other games, I feel that without the capability for creativity or slick on-the-fly tinkering with spells without having to refer to multiple charts and calculations, I would choose not to use this system.

Latin's been around for a lot longer than Harry Potter.

I don't see what the problem with making an optional sidebar for the word names would be. It wouldn't "lock in" the names, the official names would still be "Large Cone", "Force Armor", and "Distant", etc. But it would be nice to lay the groundwork for RPers to have a few things to use in game without making up random gibberish.

Even a "Draconic" optional name sidebar would be nice, to avoid latin.

I'm not suggesting that such a change would over-write the current names. They should have the flavor words in addition to the current system, nothing subtracted or replaced.

Just a simple line next to the title.

Fire Blast "Comburo" (Fire)
School evocation [fire];
etc.

This way it could be optionally used and not required, but such a simple addition could really add RP depth to an otherwise silly sounding spell system.

Rather than syllables, why not keep them as distinct words?

Target word + effect word(s) = spell phrase. Or spellphrase if you want it to seem a bit more unique. Much shorter and as clear as the phrase 'words of power spell' for describing what it is.

Word Name Type is also a bit of a mouthful. Think Effect Family is a little clearer? I don't like that as much as spellphrase, but it beats Word Name Type.

This is actually what i kind of... expected.

I was imagining a WORDS OF POWER spell system to have... well.. words. As it is now, to cast a spell, you're combining things like "Small Burst" with "Fire Blast". Add an "Amazing Super" in there and you've got yourself an Anime RPG good to go.

This system, honestly, just BEGS for flavor text... and actual WORDS to go along with the words! Be it Latin, Draconic, Klingon, whatever. The words need corresponding words.

When i'm facing down a horde of skeletal minions, i'd rather cast something along the lines of "Orbis Comburo" than "Small Burst Fire Blast"

Words of Movement - Make objects float, fly, or move around at your will.
Words of Animation - Animate inanimate objects under your control.
Words of Life - Create life in inanimate objects, giving them a sense of self and free will.

Durations NEED to be looked at. Maybe a metamagic word that increases duration, because the durations as currently enabled are ridiculous.

Yes, that clears that up. One last one: Where is that place where the first fight happens, right after the ceremonial speeches? Is that the brown patch just west of the chapels west wing?

The goblin raid actually happens across much of the northern part of Sandpoint. Yes, the initial encounter starts in the town square just west of the cathedral.

I"m a little confused by this spell. It says there's no Save if you're in the area of effect, but then in the desc., it says that a person can get a Reflex save if there's something to hang onto.

So, the bottom line is that you do get a Reflex save after all?

No, bottom line is you DON'T get a reflex save, normally. Only certain conditions and exceptions allow you to have one. Should there be stationary objects unaffected by the spell within your area, then you do, but that's the exception, not the rule.

So if, say, a PC had the fortune of standing next to a pillar (with either carvings deep enough to make obvious handholds, or small enough around to get your arms around... a 5 ft wide pillar isn't gonna cut it.), standing near a torch sconce, next to a tree, etc., they get saves. It's a call-it-as-you-see-it reflex rule, essentially.

Otherwise, baseline no save.

Well, that's a horse of a different color, then.

Bah-dum tish!

My party fell right into Ripnugget's trap as well. The thing was, everyone at the door was readied with held actions, because they already suspected something to jump out at them. Two of the four rogue goblins got pasted before the end of the surprise round.

Using the merchant's rescued horse against Ripnugget is kind of a careless or even slightly evil act. If i remember correctly, the horse was starved and suffering from exhaustion and fatigue, or something along those lines. It wouldn't be much but a meat target against Ripnugget. Yeah, the goblins fear the horse, which is why every goblin in the entire area is going to target it with ranged weapons as the sole target, likely killing it.

That's gonna be an awkward conversation with the merchants. "Yeah.. we uhh... we sorta rescued your horse. But then it died... when we uhh... we sent it in to attack the goblin chieftain. We brought back the hunks of it that were left. Now, you were talking about some kind of reward?"

Now if the PC's used their own horse, hopefully riding it to use their riding skill to keep it alive, that would be a smart move.

Just my two cents.

My PCs let Tsuto live. Our Witch Doctor (Sorcerer) found that Lyrie was in love with him, and talked them into running off together and forgetting this life of pain. They chose to live rather than continue fighting. Of course, with both of them being evil, who knows what kind of trouble they are causing...

I am thinking that maybe they will be creating a rival tomb raiding adventurer group, since Lyrie was studying Thassilonian Runes/magic.

Err.. wasn't Lyrie's advances towards Tsuto rebuffed because of Tsuto's current relationship with Nualia? Lyrie had an unrequited love thing going on.

First, definitely stress the weather. Snows are coming, and constant rain and winds are making it impossible for any large organized army to make it in from Magnimar until spring.

Drop hints that strange things are happening upstream, above the fort. Have bits of refuse or trash float down the river, along with perhaps the occasional charred troll body.

Have scouts (Either hunters in the wood, Jakardros, or whoever) report that they've seen shipments of weapons coming into the fort from the mountains, and stress that it looks like they're gearing up for an invasion and not an occupation.

You can also have scouts report that they've seen parties of ogres working on the dam from the distance.

If none of that works, throw a raiding party at Turtleback.

All else fails, play it out as it's set up. If the party insists on returning to Magnimar, let them do it. When they return they'll find Turtleback ferry a swampy mess of timbers, the surrounding lands sodden and flooded, and the entire lake and river downstream swollen. Hell, it could quite possibly make the river unusually high in Magnimar as the first hint that things are going wrong, but it wouldn't bee too bad with two large lakes in between as buffers. Lake and riverside communities all the way up towards Turtleback ferry would be increasingly hit with devastation the further upstream you went. Play it up. Sometimes the best storytelling and drama you can get is from the player's failures.

It would then be too late for Turtleback, but the party could still return to the fort and avenge the people. In fact, if they're not driven there with a righteous fury for revenge at that point, i don't know what would.

What the Paladin did was against the law, and thus against -any- paladin's code. A paladin is, by very essence, non chaotic and an upholder of order and law. He broke the law "for the greater good", in a sense.

However, it also was was not an evil act. He did this against a known enemy to protect innocents and with good intentions. It does not sound like he was doing it out of revenge or malice. So it clearly was still a good act.

So in the end, the paladin broke his code by performing a Chaotic Good act.

If he had performed an act that was more Neutral or Evil, I would have the paladin fall immediately. But being that the Paladin strayed off his path and broke the law, but stayed on the side of good, there's several ways to handle this. Here's a few ways that I would probably take it if this happened in my campaign:

1) Strayed from the path
The church steps in. They see great potential in the paladin, as he has come and saved both their church and the town on one of their most holy days, and spared many lives. Unfortunately, it appears a dark shadow is clouding his thoughts, and the paladin has strayed from his path. They enact steps to save this holy soul, return him to the path of truth and justice. Through the church's influence and sway, they are able to remove or reduce any charges against the paladin, but in return take full responsibility for him. The paladin now owes the church his freedom, and possibly even his life. In return, the church will both discipline him to return him to the good graces of the gods, and task him with goals and errands in which to further serve the church. He must pay tithes on everything he earns, obligingly respect both every law of Sandpoint and rules of the church, as well as volunteer his skills and services at times to both the town and church. This can, of course, easily be used as a hook both into any sidequests you may have (such as clearing out chopper's isle and blessing it to remove any "unholy taint" that may remain, so it may be used once again) or to bridge into book 2 (or even book 3, with a little rewriting)

2) The cursed Dark hero, vigilante
The Paladin gets arrested and thrown in the Sandpoint jail. He stays there for several days, but Mayor Deverin doesn't want the public image of crucifying one of the saviors of the town and defending the murdering monster that he offed. Things get tied in red tape, favors are called in, and the town guard on watch that day ends up "forgetting" if it was the paladin who came in and did it and that it might have been some random lynch mob. The paladin gets set free, but reactions are mixed. Some of the town may still think of him as a hero, while others push their kids inside and close the door and refuse to make eye contact or even talk with him. Ameiko (and the rest of the Rusty Dragon by proxy) shuns the paladin for offing her brother like that and not giving him a fair trial. Yes, he may have been a monster, but he was still family to her. Staff and patrons in the Rusty Dragon would pretty much ignore the paladin and any party members who are with him at the time. The paladin ends up adopting a sort of "Spiderman Syndrome" where many people think he's a bad guy that has Hemlock and/or Deverin wrapped around his pinkie and is now trying to run the town to his own ends, despite the paladin perhaps trying to convince everyone that he's just trying to do good for the town. Hemlock isn't happy with the way things go down, and is watching the paladin like a hawk and often isn't giving him an inch to breathe. Mayor Deverin also now has a favor owed by the paladin to be called in whenever she wants...

Meanwhile, Erastils agents aren't too pleased with the paladin, but given that he hasn't strayed so completely yet he hasn't fallen. As penance for "hunting" a caged animal, the Paladin ends up suffering victim to bizarre circumstances and strange coincidences. Any game he ever tries to hunt (such as either using survival, or going with Foxglove on the boar hunt) never proves fruitful for the paladin. His bowstring always snaps, he always steps on a branch and spooks the game, he shoots himself in the foot, etc. In the end his strikes/shots always miss, and the hunted is always spooked and runs away.

In addition, the paladin keeps falling into strange circumstances where he is trapped and unarmed. His sword and scabbard fall off his belt, and as he dismounts his horse to retrieve it, gets his foot caught in his sturrup. He slips and rolls down a hill and into a gully, dropping equipment as he goes. A tree falls on him and traps his leg, his sword just out of reach or broken. Even in town, a merchant cart tips and rolls onto him, safely trapping him inside, he gets his sleeve stuck in a doorjam or fence, etc. And every time one of these freak accidents happen, a predator of some sort shows up. A firepelt cat shows up when he's stuck to his saddle, a goblin or wolf is patrolling the gully, even hawks or eagles dive at him while he's stuck under the tree. In town stray dogs come at him when he's stuck on the fence, or the merchant cart was carrying a box of snakes, which is now busted.

Such a curse would continue to plague the paladin for the rest of his life, until he atones for his actions, such as releasing enough captives or prisoners, finding ways to (legally) get innocents in jail released, or sparing the lives many of his foes and handing them to the law to let them have due justice under the law rather than the sword.

3) Hellknight recruit
The Hellknights get wind of the parties exploits, as well as the paladin's current predicament and see it as an opportunity and show up in town. They find his incarceration unlawful because under the letter of Sandpoint's law, martial law is enacted when the Sheriff is missing or otherwise unaccounted for. Being that Sheriff Hemlock was out of town and did not leave an exact address and timetable filed with the city or post public notice a week in advance, Sandpoint was officially, by law, under martial law during Tsuto's death, and the acting guard did nothing to stop the party while under martial law, no crime was committed. Being that incidents that happen under martial law that are not dealt with do not carry over.... well, you get the idea.

So the Hellknights get the paladin out of the jail free and clear. They feel his actions were justified, but that his mistake was that he should have proper authority in the future to make such justice easier to carry out. They see potential in him as a recruit to the order (not necessarily the prestige class, i'm speaking of the faction here) and offer to give him certain privileges and limited access to certain training and resources should he wish to start working for them. They could even, after proof of his worth, give him deputized authority as a Hellknight representative to carry out Hellknight law in Varisia.

The conflict here would be walking the very tight line between his duties as a Paladin and upholding Good and Law beyond everything else, and his duties as a Hellknight in upholding Hellknight Law above everything else. Especially when Hellknights can have a sense of law that doesn't necessarily lean towards good...

Just a few suggestions. :)

I would allow them a Diplomacy check on the executioner. A critical success means that after he executes them, when talking about the execution for years to come, he'll quip, "Eh.. they didn't really seem all that bad. Except for that whole murderous, evil outlaws and thieves bit, they seemed pleasant enough."

Wouldn't the Knids also have fire vulnerability? (such as like mummies have, or Phoenix's to cold?)

In my campaign, the players ripped through the entire place with relative ease.

Now, first off, yes, the goblins are currently organized by Nualia and set up to be well defended. But they are FAR from a well-oiled militaristic machine. Everyone at Thistletop MAY be on the same side, but they don't like each other. There's bickering and in-fighting going on. Orik and Lyrie don't like the goblins (especially Orik) and don't really want to be around them, so they stick mostly down below. Bruzalthamus is a bully among them, and most likely goblins wouldn't back him up in a fight, just lead him into one and hope both sides wipe each other out while any other goblins run for another advantage. The Goblin Druid himself is nearly on the verge of a coup, as he severely dissaproves of their leader's decision to ally with Nualia and is looking for any excuse or reason to get Ripnugget to kick Nualia out. He wouldn't cooperate or help Nualia or her gang if they needed it unless his own immediate survival depended on it. The goblins on Thistletop playing with the gull are in the back and most likely have no idea any invasion would be going on until something drew their attention. The goblins in the watchtowers would stay posted because that's the best defensible posiiton. And Ripnugget himself has a trap planned for invaders in his throne room. This trap wouldn't work if he had the entire room packed with goblins brandishing dogchoppers.

The encounters that you also list as being worried about such as the Bunyip, the Hermit crab, and Malfeshnekor aren't even active threats. They stay pretty much where they are and can only hurt PC's if they willingly enter their area.

In the end I felt it played out realistically, but I had the opposite problem... the PC's ripped apart Thistletop like tissue paper with the only difficult encounters being the fight with the Druid in the briar maze, and Nualia.

Well, Mokmurian DOES have powerful Necromancer spells at his disposal...

He could be so infuriated in her continued failure that he slays her outright, then raises her as a minion under his direct control. (If you want anything done around here, you gotta do it yourself...)

Then you can slap any sort of undead template on that you see fit, from a Bloody Skeleton on up to Ghoul/Ghast, Mummy, Vampire...

If you add in the Delayed Bomb effect anytime you throw a bomb then catching or deflecting are out...

Delayed Bomb "... A delayed bomb detonates immediately if any other creatures attmpets to touch or move it..."

I can just see it now, enemy alchemist throwing bombs, a PC catching the first one... then the 2nd one comes in with the Delayed Bomb effect... 'boom!'

You are absolutely correct, touching a Delayed Bomb DOES set it off. However, Delayed Bombs CANNOT be thrown.

Delayed Bomb: "An Alchemist can place a bomb so that it explodes a number of rounds after the alchemist ceases contact with the bomb."

You can only use Delayed Bomb to place bombs and not throw them. Throwing delayed bombs doesn't even make sense logically.

So no, Deflect and Snatch Arrows would NOT work on a Delayed Bomb, because Delayed Bombs aren't thrown.

As far as Mage's Disjunction, that one's a GM call. In reading the description of bombs, the bombs are prepared as inert compounds beforehand, and only mixed and activated the round of use. The question is whether you consider the inert compound magical, or merely an ordinary chemistry compound.

You could probably rule that a readied action to cast Disjunction AFTER an Alchemist has prepared a vial into a bomb but before he throws it, that it would make the bomb inert again...

The Bombs feature of an Alchemist specifically states that it only detonates on a direct hit, not on touch. Bombs are splash weapons. On page 202 of the corebook, the very first sentance regarding splash weapons states;

"A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact."

A deflection or a snatch is not an impact, and as it IS classified as a ranged weapon, Deflect/Snatch would work. Ahh... and i just found this. Frost himself posted saying that Snatch Arrows would work on an alchemists bombs.

Snatch Arrows vs Bombs

Still don´t make sense to me.

He knows much but is 10.000 years dead! Karzoug must be very very cautious to look after 10.000 year long dead spies (one amonst many I´m sure) and make sure they stay that way. Especially if his intrusion make the "heroes of this age" curios whats so important on this site (otherwise they probably never give the thing a second tought).

And for the Runeforged Weapons.... they are nice sure. But nothing Karzoug really has to be afraid of.

Xaliasa was one of a handfull of people who knew about the Runeforge AND how to get to it. Mokmurian has been tasked with finding the ruins of the Hellfire plume that Xaliasa was stationed at... after all, there were MANY Hellfire plumes. Once the right one was found, they wanted to make sure any information or evidence left behind by Xaliasa regarding the whereabouts of the Runeforge was destroyed so that no one could ever track it down and use it against Karzoug.

They don't attack Sandpoint with the intentions to destroy the Hellfire Plume, Teratkinus just wants to retrieve a single stone from it so they can tell if it's the one they're looking for. They're just looting and pillaging while they're there cause, well, why not? The fact that Xaliasa is actually still around is just bonus, though Karzoug doesn't know this yet.

This might be of some help.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/runelords/nualiaLeveledUpHelpSpoilers

1) Be sure to form a close bond between lots of the NPC's in Sandpoint and the PC's. Give them personality and make them come alive, and it comes easier. Make them become a part of the town. Even have some of them keep in touch or ask about them whenever they're away. This way when the hammer comes down on Sandpoint (At various points), it affects the PC's on a personal level.

2) Play up the Sczarneti. The entire path paints a great picture of these snooty, conservative potential-thorns-in-the-PC's-side, and then overlooks them.

3) Make the PC's remember Aldern Foxglove, and make him memorable. Whether as a love interest, eccentric noble, or slightly desperate adventure seeker. Develop a relationship with the PC's with him.

4) If given the opportunity, see if you can get the party to "arrest" rather than kill the humans on Thistletop (Lyria, Nualia, Tsuto, etc.). This makes for GREAT story potential and opportunities in book 2. (In my campaign, Lyria was pinned with all of Nualia's crimes as a scapegoat, citing her as the true mastermind and magically coerced Tsuto and Nualia against their will, and was sentenced to death while the others walked free to cause more havok...)

5) I'm not sure it's necessary to move/combine Magnimar and Sandpoint. Magnimar is only a days travel (half on horseback) and it never felt like it was out of the way for us. Having them separate also gave a chance to flesh out the polar opposites of the two cities... Sandpoint being smaller, hometown-feeling, and friendly, where the PC's are on a first name basis with even the mayor, and Magnimar, the red-tape, corruption laden, greed and excess sprawl with a repulsive (but jolly) mayor that is a politician in every sense of the word.

6) Move Turtleback Ferry/Rannick Keep closer, or just substitute Turtleback Ferry with Sandpoint. If you do this, make sure you drop information about the fort and gambling hall in book one, so it feels like it was part of everything all along.

7) Get rid of the Nymph affair in Hook Mountain Massacre. It's just silly, destroys the mood, is completely unnecessary and derails the campaign.

8) Give the PC's plenty of downtime whenever you can. It's possible for a year to have passed between Book 1 and Book 4. It's definitely not a rush campaign, it's a sort of deep, slow mystery.

Regarding Book 4 and the "deep horror theme"... I think you're only half right. Each book has a distinct and different flavor, and the overall feel of the entire path is one more of mystery than horror. Book 2 is the most horror you're going to get. Book 1 starts light-hearted but turns serious. Book 3 is more of "The Hills Have Eyes" grit and gore. Book 4 is kind of the grand unveiling, it's the first glimpse the PC's get at what's going on. It gives them the Thassalonian library and a hint at the bigger picture. To skip it and go straight on into book 5 is doable, but I feel it would deprive the PC's of a bit of the build up and suspense of a bigger, unseen force controlling the strings. Instead of discovering a secret army building up and taking them out, and learning of the bigger plot, you'd just be pointing at Karzoug after the attack on fort Rannick and go "He did it, go get him.". Less dramatic.

Hope that helps.

Heh, awesome avatar! I actually edited this part of the adventure out of my group's campaign entirely because I felt it might be too much of a red herring for them and derail things.

+1

The entire section felt out of place and tacked on to the whole module. I removed the Lamatar wight and replaced him with an animated object:large cauldron with chains on it, that would try to grab the PCs and pull them into the cauldron while the invisible hags cast their coven spells.

The hook to get them the location of the stronghold was a map and recent scout report found in the wreckage of the meeting room of fort rannick on the recent increase of abnormal ogre activity there.

I don't think Black Magga actually detaches from her tentacles...

As far as making the sidequest, I'd factor in several things. One, is the party overly concerned about Black Magga? Is it something they talk about from time to time, or have on their "to do" list when they have time? If so, then yeah, go for it. But if the characters are swamped with dealing with Karzoug and haven't had much spare downtime to run off for sidequests, and all in all don't really care, you may be pushing things too thin for them.

It can always set up a new legend or adventure hook later on down the road, or a job for a new party of adventurers who arrive in Varisia later...

Thats said I do agree that it has potential at the beginning but once the PCs get into the dungeon levels itself it doesnt make much sense...a mad scientist type wizzie, a dragon, a vampire, and an enchantress all living under one roof.... Kinda like Big Brother D&D style.

I like some of your changes...thanks for sharing your ideas!!

That was my biggest issue is that it didn't flow together at all. One room has cultists and a demon, next a giant, next a dragon... wtf?

I really tried to give the room layouts a flow and a sense of purpose.

Level 1 is supposed to feel like the entrance to it was long ago lost to ruin and built over with newer structures as the ages passed by.

Level 2 I tried to give it the feel of the "maintenance" area. It's where the air vents, generator, circuits, incinerator, all of those types of things are. The industrial backbone to the complex.

Level 3 is more of the pure research areas. Library, scrying, alchemy lab, and the "nano constructs" and the like.

Level 4 is the experiment rooms where their experiments were carried out.

Level 5 is the heart of the complex, where everything is controlled, and the main heavy assembly construction takes place.

I tried to fit the various rooms in the module into it more seamlessly, but for these reasons many of the creatures were changed into constructs, as I saw no reason for dragons and the like to randomly be down there or even compelled. I tried to hint at the "Good doctor" being another cog working for the big Karzoug machine (much like Nualia was). But changing most things over to be constructs also gives it more of an eerie vibe, seeing the complex pretty much as the ancient Thassalonians left it, with few other creatures ever finding their way in.

Currently I'm running Rise of the Runelords for my group. I took a look through the Seven Swords of Sin module, and decided that it would make a great side-trek in between Hook Mountain Massacre and Fortress of the Stone Giants.

In reading through the Seven Swords of Sin, while I found parts of it to be deviously brilliant mechanically, the actual storyline, history, and reasons were horribly bad in writing. I love all of the Pathfinder writing, but I have to admit that this module is the worst written Pathfinder product. In addition to this, there is sadly only ONE reference to Thassilon during the entire module... the Seven Swords. So, I took it upon myself to rewrite the module in order to fit it into and more seamlessly integrate it with the existing story of Seven Swords of Sin.

So, for those of you interested in running Seven Swords of Sin in your Rise of the Runelords campaign, hopefully you can get a few ideas from this!

In my campaign, Nualia was captured alive and taken to trial, where she was released by Ironbriar (Who pinned all of her crimes on Lyria) and has been hounding the party ever since. After Hook Mountain Massacre wrapped up and the party had some downtime, the party cleric, who has a personal quest to track down, capture, and redeem Nualia to good once again, tracked signs of Nualia's passage from Fort Rannick through Varisia, to Kaer Maga. After returning to the party to inform them of her new "Hideout" in Kaer Maga and enlisting their aid, the party set off for Kaer Maga in full force.

For the actual Dungeon, I heavily modified the rooms and layouts instead of using Seven Swords of Sin's default map. For most of it i used the free "Map a week" wizards tower map released by Wizards here as a base template and heavily modified it for my use:

Wizards Tower

I cut several rooms from the original mod as I felt they were entirely unnecessary or went against the overall feel of the dungeon and storyline, or any sense of coherency. The rooms i did not include were rooms 4, 7, 14, 19, 31, 32, 33, 34.

How to make your own Seven Swords of Sin!

I've seen a lot of unanswered discussions and questions regarding the rest of the swords of sin. Hopefully this can help people make suitable swords to fill their own campaigns.

In trying to create the stats for Garvok, sword of wrath, I took a real careful look at the two existing stat-blocks for the swords of sin. After a bit i noticed several consistencies and was able to develop these basic rules:

1) An enhancement bonus relative to the level of the adventure.

2) A weapon enchantment

3) A spell-like effect of level 1-3 activated on hit. This must be of a corresponding school to the sin of the sword, ie lust=enchantment, wrath=evocation, etc. The DC of this effect is 20.

4) A spell-like effect of level 4-6 activated on critical hit. This must be of a corresponding school to the sin of the sword. The DC of this effect is 25.

Here is my example.

Garvok, Sword of Wrath

+3 Bastard Sword
Bane (all). The wielder may spend a standard action to change the Bane type to another of their choosing. Only one bane may be active at any time.
Whenever it strikes an opponent the sword produces an effect similar to a Sound Burst, as per the spell, centered on the opponent struck. The DC for this effect is 20. The wielder of Garvok is always immune to this effect.
Whenever Garvok scores a critical strike on an opponent, Garvok unleashes a devastating blast as per the spell Sign of Wrath. This effect is centered on the foe struck. The DC for this effect is 25. The effective caster level for this effect is the wielder's character level.

Count me in the same boat. I was confused on where to find any actual listing of allied and enemy factions after it specifically states rules for doing so, but found none.

It appears it was left unfinished and it's up to us to fill in the gaps. Bellflower Network and Eagle Knights would be obvious allies, for starters.

Gorbacz, you're a lifesaver! Thank you very much. I would have posted sooner, but we were gaming all day yesterday and I had no time to post :)

I swapped out Toughness for Extra Channel and gave her Channel Smite for the extra feat (after shuffling feat order), allowing her to give her sword some extra "oomph" on damage. I'm currently using her to tie-in Seven Swords of Sin with Rise of the Runelords, and she's currently using Garvok, sword of Wrath. I'll have to post details on it later. :)

Ok, I'm slightly desperate here and I'd be grateful for anyone's help.

In the campaign I'm running, Nualia was captured in book one, then released in book 2 and has become a recurring thorn in the player's sides. I've set up an epic showdown now between the players and Nualia for our next session, which is today. The problem? I've completely lost my stats for Nualia. And it's 2am.

I'm throwing in the towel and getting some sleep before the game. Could anyone possibly stat up Nualia (PFRPG rules) to level 12? I remember I had her specializing in slaughtering things with her sword and had extra channeling. That's about all i remember at this point, my brain is fried. Any help, even a quick job, would be most appreciated. Otherwise i'll have to resort to stalling the encounter or winging it, both of which I really prefer not to. So if any kind-hearted DM would lend me a hand while I get some much needed rest, may the gods bless you!

The issue -can- be resolved with the existing rules, depending on how you want to do things.

"I slam him against the wall forcefully!"
Make a CMB roll vs his CMD, deal unarmed damage.

"I judo throw him across the room!"
Make a CMB roll vs his CMD, move action, drop grapple as free action.

"I flip him into the table to smash it!"
GREATER GRAPPLE:
Make a CMB roll vs his CMD, move action to move him to the table.
Make a CMB roll vs his CMD, deal unarmed damage.

"I flip him and throw him into the ground, then put my knee down against his throat so he can't get back up!"
GREATER GRAPPLE:
Make a CMB roll vs his CMD, deal unarmed damage.
Make a CMB roll vs his CMD, pin.

All of the grapple actions can be done with more flavor, it's what the rules are there for. Greater Grapple allows for more complicated or creative maneuvers.

It's not super polished this way (having only combination of Move, Pin, and Harm) but for the most part can get the job done without the need for homebrew feats.

The feat is from the Cheliax companion guide.

Well, this is why I would assume, if possible, it is intended that all options would be at -4. Let's assume harm is indeed the only option when using the feat. After successfully grappling with your weapon, could you then drop the weapon as a free action, but continue to maintain the grapple? If you could, from there you could then proceed to pin at no penalty.

I would think that RAW supports the above action, however RAI is that you are exerting your control over your opponent through the weapon they are skewered on. If that's the case, could you not drag them around on your weapon, moving them? Or drive the tip they're skewered on into the ground, effectively pinning him?

Wow, nobody has any idea on this?

Benefit: Whenever you damage an opponent with a piercing weapon, you can immediately make a grapple check; success means the opponent is impaled on your weapon and you both gain the grappled condition. While the opponent is impaled, as an attack action you may make a grapple check on your turn at a –4 penalty to damage the opponent with your weapon, even if your weapon cannot normally be used in a grapple.

Now Hamatula Strike allows you to perform a grapple check (at -4) to deal weapon damage instead of unarmed on an grappled opponent using the feat. My question is, could you still perform any of the other grapple actions (Move, pin) with the weapon? If so, would those actions also be at the -4?

The feat seems very vague about this. It depends on how this is ruled. If it is a standard grapple that this feat initiates, then I would take that to mean, RAW, that any grapple action could be taken (move, pin, unarmed harm damage) without the -4 penalty, and harm with the weapon at -4. But if the intention is that you are performing a special grapple-like action, then it is not the same as a standard grapple and follows it's own rules.

So can you perform a Pin or Move action while using Hamatula Strike? Would a -4 penalty apply? I can't seem to pin where this one falls under the rules.

I used an idea I found here on the boards. Spoilers ahead!

Sure, but a reflavored alchemist isn't really the swaying, dodging drunken master. Its just an angry drunk guy. And wasn't the whole point originally to play a monk class?

I would say getting Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack, possibly even whirlwind attack (since you're already up that tree).

If you want the single powerful blows, Vital Strike tree is good too. And I believe I read that the official ruling allows Vital Strike to pair with Spring Attack.

I would also ask your DM about either house ruling a feat that allows you to use a tankard or flask as a monk weapon. (thus capable of flurrying with it).

If you really want the "drunk" flavor to it, perhaps another homebrew feat that gives you a stat bonus (maybe something like a +1 bonus, additonal +1 for every five monk levels to Str and Dex, and a negative of the same to Int and Cha while drunk, negatives to Str, Dex, Int, Cha while sober for less than a week.)

Keep in mind that a magical weapon can only be sundered by another magical weapon with an equal or greater enhancement bonus. Not total magic bonus, but enhancement.

So if equal money is invested in two separate swords, one making it a +1 flaming sword, the second a +2 sword, the +2 sword has a much less risk of being sundered as not just any magical sword can do it now. Which means at appropriate level/wealth ratio, most encounters you fight against are probably going to split their magical bonuses on their weapons up between enhancement and other things and thus no longer be a threat.

Once we get into high levels and everyone's walking around with +5 enhanced weapons, and on the off chance you fight someone else with a +5 enhanced weapon, and on the off chance he decides to sunder you before you sunder him, AND if he succeeds, well, too bad. It's a pretty rare circumstance to begin with, and you just had bad luck. On the plus side, if you still win the fight, chances are you now have a new +5 weapon to replace the one that was just sundered, or it could be sold to repair your old one.

If you didn't survive that fight, well, you don't need your sundered weapon now anyways.

Moral of the story: If you're THAT worried about your weapon being sundered and don't like the idea of a backup weapon that isn't as SUPER UBER AWESOME as your main weapon, add +enhancement bonuses to it first before adding the other magical buffs.

I still don't see what the big deal is. Magic weapons don't make your character, and they're not the be-all-end-all. It's just equipment, not the character.

Sundering is neither "made only for DM's" and cruel. If anything it's only an inconvenience to the player being sundered, and is easily reversible.

The second level Cleric/Sorc/Wizard spell Make Whole both fixes a sundered object, and fully restores all magical properties of it. The only caveat is you must be twice the level of the item to fix it.

Sunder builds are fun and the only reason I don't sunder more often as a player is because it's usually hard to pull off in the right circumstances, often taking another tactic is easier. Facing off against a tribe of stone giants in large sized armor wielding large sized Earth Breakers? Sunder the hell out of their weapons first to reduce their damage potential, then sunder their armor to make them easier to hit. A monk could pull this off in one or two rounds on a group of them with flurry. The weapons and armor are useless to you anyways to sell.

In any case, using sunder as a DM, i think it's more than fair. If an opponent knows they're getting their butt handed to them by a weapon, or can't seem to punch past that gleaming breastplate, it's only logical and reasonable to try to destroy your foes advantages when you're in a fight to the death. It also will keep characters balanced, and make them invest in themselves and not solely their weapon. A PC is not an uber weapon with a guy who carries it around, it's a hero with his own talents who shouldn't rely on a single meal ticket item.

I'm also currently running the AP for my group.

My initial reaction is that a Fey in this AP would be a bit out of place. If you have your heart set on playing one, you certainly can make it work. However, There's decidedly few areas and chances to be skipping about in the outdoors cavorting with wildlife and being generally care-free on a regular basis.

Most of the AP is indoors, underground, or in structures. Urban areas also are predominant. There are stretches of wilderness, but for the most part they are short stretches before you dive right back into one of the above. And as said above, you'll definitely be coming across morbid, gross, and gory situations early in the AP, and the general mood is oppressive and mysterious.

Most weapons fit within a certain balance. Generally, If it does lots of damage, it will have a small crit range and multiplier, and no other effects. Smaller damage range, higher crit multiplier with no other effects. You won't find reach/trip/sunder weapons with large damage dice or crit range/multipliers. A shield gives an ac bonus, additional damage would be a secondary effect. Which means to keep it balanced, its damage and crit range should both remain small.

A sharpened scabbard has a high threat because it does squat for damage.

Otherwise, if we could get a weapon with high crit and decent damage, AND an AC bonus, nobody would use any lesser weapon.

Nothing at all prevents any character from casting any necromancer spell, provided it is available as a class ability.

Necromancy spells with [Evil] as a descriptor will have consequences in regards to alignment. You don't have to be evil to cast them, but your alignment may shift, as you are performing an evil act.

As for other necromantic spells without the evil descriptor, you are fine. You may, however, find that certain cultures may find them taboo, avoided, or even outlawed. This is very dependent on regional tolerances and the like, however.

I second the Skinsaw Murders AP module. I had a blast running the haunted mansion, and the players were scared to do ANYTHING in that house. The big things that disturbed them was that
1) There was nothing directly for them to attack for most of the house. They were fighting figments, and themselves...
2) The unknown. They felt like they had no control, since they didn't know what they were facing with the haunts. They were actually scared! And
3)... the Crows. So... many crows outside....

Actually, I think it's a very viable build.

The issue is, everyone is usually solely worried about sheer muscle power and strength. This build would not be one of those. This wouldn't be a build about getting big heavy hitters out on the battlefield, it would be about overwhelming it with sheer numbers of cannon fodder minions. The amount of summons you could get off would be staggering. The objective wouldn't be straight DPS, it would be about a small but steady DPS stream with a flood of minions, controlling the battlefield, flanking, soaking attacks, and taking tons of free Attacks of Opportunity when such arise. Augmented Summoning is a must have feat, and Boon Companion could give you a bit more oomph from your Animal Companion, if you want. Leadership could just add to the mayhem fun.

Group buffs that affect the entire party, such as Bless, Bardic abilities, Mass Bulls Strength, etc., would be magnified when you have countless minions available to take advantage of the buffs.

The biggest drawback of this build, however, is the time management and record keeping. It may take five to ten minutes every time your turn rolls around to move, attack, strategize, and so on for all of the minions under your control. This might eventually annoy the other players and DM. It would also be a huge hassle keeping track of all the numbers, HP's, stats, and durations.