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This came up in my group's last game night. We were combatting an enemy who cast Improved Invisibility, the 4th Level version. My character thought about using a Dispel Magic to counteract the invisibility but I was unsure how to proceed.

My character wasn't able to see the target of the Invisiblity spell, it was undetected or hidden. I assumed that this means I would need to make a flat check to dispel the invisibilty but looking at the actual description of Dispel Magic, I realized that targets of a Dispel Magic spell are either one spell effect or an unattended magic item. There are no targetted or area dispels in 2nd edition any more.

So how do I do this according to the rules as written?

a) I can us Dispel Magic to counteract Invisibility and if I manage to make a flat check to find out whether the target is affected by my Dispel Magic spell?

b) I can try to dispel the Invisibility spell if the Invisibility spell effect is within 120 feet and without being able to observe the recipient of the Invisiblity spell at all?

c) Before I can try to dispel the Invisibility spell, I need to detect the source of the magic, e.g. with a 5th level Detect Magic spell?

Thank you for your input!

This is an interpretation of the rules. I don't say that you're wrong, just that it's a houserule. But you can apply it if you want.

Yes, this is not explicitly stated and an interpretation. I guess we will discuss this at our gaming table and make a decision about how we want to handle this in the future.

Reading the spell more closely, I think there's a way to handle concealment in a proper and unified way (and RAW). It's to target at the moment you cast the spell. So, if there are Concealed creatures, you roll before starting the Chain Lightning, and if you fail your flat check you can't make the Chain Lightning pass through this creature.

To sum up: You state the targets at the spell launch and roll for all concealment at that moment. Then you start the chain and affect any creature you managed to target.

I talked to my friend from my gaming group and I am starting to think that concealment is indeed able to stop the arc of Chain Lightning. The reasoning is that Chain Lightning works in a sequence and this sequence can be interrupted by a critical Reflex Save. A critical Reflex Save means that you have avoided or dodged an attack or effect completely and this seems to be the same result if a flat check for concealment is successful. The attack misses, the target remains unscathed and as a result Chain Lightning stops, because the sequence of Chain Lightning seems to be contingent on hitting (at least partially) its targets.

Another question came up regarding the state of visibility of the targets of Chain Lightning. The description says that the caster requires line of effect to all the targets of the spell. To me that seems to indicate that it is irrelevant if a target is concealed or currently under the effect of the spell Mirror Image or even Invisibility (as long as the recipient is only hidden and not undetected).

a) Concealment would therefore have no effect at all on Chain Lightning. Only the caster, a critical Reflex Save or a very solid barrier blocking line of effect can stop the spell?

b) Chain Lightning would fail if affected by the miss chance provided from concealment?

c) A target that is under the effect of concealment wouldn't be affected by Chain Lightning if the miss chance afforded through concealment applied and the lightning would just continue arcing to the next target?

Which conclusion is correct?

A world where the caster doesn't choose targets for Chain Lightning is a world where Chain Lightning doesn't work, because there's nothing written in the spell about how to choose targets. In order for the spell to work under the alternate interpretation, there has to be a way in the spell to figure out which the next target is (and there isn't).

I totally agree.

Yes, you choose all the targets. Though it's not the main sentence which does it. The main reason is the Targets section:

CRB wrote:

Targets 1 creature, plus any number of additional creatures

You select targets for spells according to Targets sections. It's probable that some spells (and Target sections for them) make you randomly select creatures, but I don't remember any such ones.

Almost always harming allies is possible only by getting them into spell areas or explicitly targeting them for some reason.

Yes, I looked into that the definition of targets in CRB as well. The confusion arose around the sentence in the description of Chain Lightning: "The electricity arcs to another creature within 30 feet of the first target, jumps to another creature within 30 feet of that target, and so on. You can end the chain at any point."

It was suggested at my table that because of the phrase "creature within 30 feet" and the statement "You can end the chain at any point" the caster can only choose the initial target and interrupt the arcing lightning whenever it could involuntarily hit a party member.

I think that this would make Chain Lightning nearly obsolete. Thanks for the clarification.

At tonight’s game a discussion came up about how the spell Chain Lightning works. My character just leveled up, got access to 6th grade spells and used it for the first time to devastating effect on a number of enemies surrounding our party. Everyone of the enemies failed or critically failed their Reflex Saves and was hit by the arcing lightning.

It was argued that the caster of Chain Lightning can only choose the first target of the chain, the secondary targets could be all creatures within 30 feet which means that this could also hit party members. I think that this is not how the spell is supposed to work and is even contradicted in the description of the spell where it is said that “You can’t target the same creature more than once, and you must have line of effect to all targets.“ This seems to imply to me that the caster chooses all the secondary targets, within the limitations of distance and line of effect.

I couldn’t find a thread about this question so I would like to hear your opinion.

Do I interpret how Chain Lightning works correctly?

Many thanks in advance for your comments!

Ragwulf wrote:

I have a question concerning sneak attacks. According to the rogue entry you can melee sneak with agile and finesse weapons and with ranged attacks or thrown ranged weapons if they have the agile or finesse trait.

Does this also mean that you can sneak with spells that require a melee or ranged spell attack roll? And is it correct that you can't sneak with alchemical bombs since they lack the agile or finesse trait?

You don't need "agile or finesse" ranged weapon.

You need agile or finesse melee OR ranged.

You can sneak attack with bombs just fine.

You normally can't sneak with spells because sneak attack requires Strike, and spell attacks aren't Strikes.

But there's a level 4 rogue feat that allows spell sneak attack (although you won't trigger Debilitations, since those are still tied to Strikes)

Thank you for clarifying. I misread the sneak entry.

I have a question concerning sneak attacks. According to the rogue entry you can melee sneak with agile and finesse weapons and with ranged attacks or thrown ranged weapons if they have the agile or finesse trait.

Does this also mean that you can sneak with spells that require a melee or ranged spell attack roll? And is it correct that you can't sneak with alchemical bombs since they lack the agile or finesse trait?

And, because, you know, as a Wizard I can know all of the spells, ever? Not only a limited list. That was always the difference between Sorcerer and Wizard for me - The sorcerer is more flexible during the day, the Wizard is more flexible day to day. The sorcerer is better in surprise situations, the wizard is better in planned Scenarios or when he has some time to adapt.

And I would take spells I can't heighten for the same reason I do in the current System - because some interesting spell effects simply can't be heightened.

Sorcerer and Wizards are two sides of the same coin. As a Wizard player I was always fascinated by acquiring as many spells as I could during my adventuring career. Sorcerers seemed to me too limited in their options. There was some argument on the boards clamoring for Arcanist‘s style of casting for wizards but this severely undercuts the advantage of the sorcerer.

For example a sorcerer knows the spell the 4th-Level Necromancy Spell Enervation. “Stretching” that spell could mean to be able to cast another Necromany spell of that level or of a lower level. Spell schools or spell traits could be guidelines to rule into which alternatives a spell could be stretched. This would be a powerful ability for sorcerer and this would balance Arcanist casting for wizards in my opinion.

One thing that bothers me that has been barely mentioned about the sorcerer is having to make daily choices, it feels wrong. IMO the sorcerer shouldn't have to make daily choices, they make the class feel more like a learned wizard and less like an innate spellcaster.

Spontaneous Heightening.- There's two possibilities, either they are fixed at each level up as some sort of signature spells -and maybe add one more if making them static proves to be too limited-, or keep them malleable, but instead of playing pretend wizard every morning, you get to assign them and shift them on the fly with one or two actions.

I think that the limit is necessary to balance the Sorcerer against the wizard. I'd suggest to limit Spontaneous Heightening to two spells each day which you can assign spontaneously and you would need keep those spells until the next time you rest.

You wouldn't be able to change the spells after you have committed for the day. I think that would be more flexible and feel more "sorcerish".