Question's page

As brought up earlier, there is a perception that FAQs are not being answered quickly enough or relatively low priority stuff is being addressed instead of serious problems like incomplete rules.

Who is responsible for this perception? Paizo. As anyone can tell you, it is the actions of a company that create perceptions of a company.

If the ice tomb hex had been addressed quickly, if not in play testing but at some short point after release, then this thread would not have existed. None of the ice tomb related posts would have been made. Its simple cause and effect.

But because this dragged on for more than two years, it helped to generate a perception that Paizo releases incomplete products and refuses to fix them. And here is the key point : It is irrelevant whether that is true, the only important thing is how many people believe it to be true.

Unfortunately Paizo's actions over a period of several years have helped to fuel this perception and that could easily have been avoided. I'm not sure how or why this is happening because its been standard practice in companies now to have someone in charge of making sure this doesnt happen, but paizo doesnt appear to have one. For example that October thread in the rules forum about ice tomb? That generated a lot of negativity towards Paizo. Why? Because nobody from Paizo came in to explain their position. So people assumed the worst : Paizo doesnt care, etc, etc.

I would like to point out a real life case study happening now. There is a game called Mechwarrior Online. Opinion of the game and the company in charge of it is overwhelmingly negative...the most common complaints that the developers refuse to address issues, refuse to communicate with their customers and are simply out to rip people off. There have also been dozens of negative articles written about the game/company on gaming sites. That obviously does not help their profitability, when someone goes on a website and askes "hey what do people think of this game?" and get mostly negative replies, they are likely not going to try it out and spread the word even further.

That game is often compared to another one called Star Citizen which has the exact opposite perception because the company in charge of that handles thing in the opposite way.

That October thread in the rules forum was a missed chance for Paizo. It would have been the perfect opportunity for someone from Paizo, not necessarily a designer, someone from customer service or PR, to come in and say something like "Thanks for the heads up, we will forward this to the team in charge.". That simple one sentence would have generated lots of goodwill for Paizo, and if a FAQ got released a few weeks later, that would have been even better. People all over the net, not just the Paizo forums but on other RPG related websites, would have been going "Wow, look at this, someone from Paizo posted in this thread and we got a FAQ for it shortly after, they really do care!".

Paizo missed another opportunity with a similar thread in the General Discussion forum. People from customer service were posting in it...but in the capacity of forum mods to issue warnings, delete posts and lock the thread eventually for going "off topic". That resulted in extreme negativity towards Paizo. I was watching discussion of the thread on other websites and people thought Paizo was trying to cover things up instead of responding to the issue.

The point im trying to make is that is a lot of negativity towards Paizo for various things like inappropriate handling for FAQs, and to be honest thats because of actions that Paizo has chosen to take (or not to take). As long as Paizo chooses not to address these issues, negativity towards Paizo will continue to mount with the resulting loss of sales.

So for example you could say that "We wont make any changes to the FAQ system, if something has been FAQed just assume it is being looked at regardless of how many years pass with no response". But thats going to generate a very logical reaction to it, similar to say, you not being paid any wages and HR wont reply to your emails or return your calls because "just assume we are looking into it".

Im not sure why i just wrote a long post explaining things that are taught in first stage business courses...the Paizo CEO should have a MBA and be aware of this...

I'm opening the thread again, now that it's not the weekend.

Vivianne Laflamme, I'm going to answer your question again, and address the intent I missed earlier.

Vivianne Laflamme wrote:

Is the implication here that you'll refuse to respond to the at least sixty-something people who have asked for a response to this ice tomb hex issue because you don't like how one person is talking about it?

That is not my implication at all.

My original question was: "Do you think your posting behavior and attitude are more likely to get the staff to answer your about specific rules questions you want answered, or less likely?"

Meaning, specifically: If you have a question about an unanswered FAQ, which of these three hypothetical posts is more likely to get a staff reply?
A) "Hey, Paizo, I'm really hoping for an answer to how the ice tomb hex is supposed to work. There are over 60 FAQ clicks for it but there isn't a response yet, and not knowing its range really makes it hard to use it, especially in PFS play where we're supposed to go by the official rules."
B) "Still waiting for an official paizo response as to why they wont issue an errata with range, duration, etc...considering it takes 5 minutes or less to do. Really confused by this, there have been countless threads on this topic for months. I really dont get why a major class ability has no errata when nobody knows how it should work. At the moment everyone is just making guesses and house rules."
C) "It is obvious that outside of special events like playtests, paizo staff barring mods do not actually read or respond to threads on the forums. How exactly are people supposed to get stuff clarified by Paizo then, ask them questions, bring issues to their attention, etc?"

The answer, of course, is (A), because it's just a question—not a complaint and criticism wrapped around a question, or a complaint, criticism, and lie wrapped around a question.

So...

Vivianne Laflamme wrote:

Is the implication

...

Im not sure if this is a good idea to address this post because i really do not want to start another fight, but there is one point that has yet to be addressed.

Your point is, i believe, that posting questions politely would get them answered quicker. That is perfectly reasonable.

Then let me ask : Since this question has been asked multiple times for more than two years but never answered, addressed or acknowledged in any way for paizo staff, are you implying that they were not polite enough to receive a response?

If yes : Then how polite do we need to be to get a response? If no, then clearly politeness is not a significant factor in getting a question answered.

Sure you can say that paizo staff is busy, but at the same time, by your own admission, FAQs are being answered. At this point the question becomes : Why was other stuff answered, but something that is missing rules was not?

A clarification regarding how long it took splash weapons work was published last month. Im pretty sure most people would agree that an incomplete rule ranks higher in priorty than how long it takes to throw a splash weapon.

The way i see it (and i think many people will agree) is that the ice tomb hex FAQs was overlooked and other FAQs that got answered, such as the splash weapon one, was not. Whether this happened because someone at paizo believed it to be low priority for whatever reason, or because a designer had the splash weapon thing come up in one of his games and pushed it to the front of the queue, we dont know.

But if the official response to "why was an incomplete rule not addressed for over two years" is "we prioritized something else, like splash weapons" then of course people are going to have issues with this because they dont agree.

And i dont think that telling people they have no right to question will go over well.

I respectfully request that the Ice Tomb hex not receive any faq attention or Errata. As it has been one of the main topics of this thread, giving it attention will only encourage more threads like this one. Something we don't need. I am a DM, I can rule how it works for my players. When I play in someone else's game, I can ask the DM to make a ruling. I'm an adult and can live with whatever decision a DM makes about a mechanic in a game.

Please leave Ice Tomb just like it is.

I'm not sure if this was being sarcastic, excuse me if it was.

A lot of people seem to have missed one thing : A product was published with incomplete rules. People want the rules clarified, and among them includes people who paid money for this product.

Now im genuinely confused as to why poeple think this is "entitled" in some way. Given that yes, people are entitled to a rulebook with complete, fully working rules, which they paid for.

If i were to sell you a maths textbook, and it has incomplete paragraphs and is missing math formulaes that should be in there, then wouldnt you be pretty annoyed? How would you, or others react in this situation? Likely take the book back for a refund or ask for clarification regarding the missing items.

It doesnt matter that anyone here can come up with a house rule for their game, thats honestly not important at all. Otherwise i would start selling partial PDFs on the paizo store with text like "[Insert name here] does [Insert house rule here] damage, if the target fails the save then it [insert house rule here]".

The point is that people paid for a product which they expected to be complete but it was not. And they asked nicely for more than 2 years for it to be fixed, but did not receive any response from any of the paizo staff at all. This was even brought up in the official errata thread and im pretty sure during playtesting.

The context here is important. Lets say that someone had brought this up and a week later complained it wasnt fixed. OK you would have some justification for saying that Paizo was not given a chance to fix it. But as has been explained numerous times, this wasnt what happened here.

I pointed this out on the first or second page. People asked nicely for more than 2 years. That obviously did not work. Why should people believe that asking nicely again would work? IIRC Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result each time.

To use an analogy, lets say that you, a tenant, had filed a maintainance request with the landlord. 2 years later it was still not fixed. You know other tenants have filed similar requests, and none of them received any communication from the landlord either. There is infact, no indication whatsoever that the landlord has read the request, other than a blanket statement that "all maintainance requests are read and will be addressed in time".

How long would you continue to just sit and wait, or would you start thinking that you should try something else?

Any option that is underpowered is probably unnecessary. Either buff them to the point where they are balanced or you may as well not bother.

Crafting is a good example. Spending years to save half the price on full plate is retarded, nobody in their right mind would do this.

Spending a few days to save like 10k worth of gold while crafting magic items, yea sure. Thats actually reasonable.

But given that you could spend a year adventuring for gold instead of crafting full plate, it really makes no sense to do the latter.

I dont know why paizo spends so much time making rules that very few people would actually use. That time could be better spent making useful stuff or fixing old stuff.

I don't get it. None of us were debating about how to politely ask a rules question...nor was it our intention to do so.

Why couldnt you have just said something like "I'm not sure what happened with the previous FAQs on ice tomb but i will check on this next week/get someone to take a look"?

Erm...ok? I already said that you were right and i was wrong, so i dont know why you keep pushing the issue. I dont want to move the goal posts or anything, i just dont want to continue discussing something that isnt likely going to be constructive because we would be making snide remarks at each other and making each other feel unhappy. It feels like you are trying to ascertain that you have "won", and if it makes you feel happy, then yes you have won and i was wrong.

I dont know why you are bringing up the attitude thing. You appear to be making the point that if i had asked this in a way that you feel is "nicer", you would be more likely to answer the question (stop me if im wrong).

So then, let me ask you, people have been asking nicely about this for more than 2 years. Were all the people before me not nice enough to get an answer? If the answer is yes, then how nice do we have to be to get an answer? If the answer is no, then how nice i am doesnt really make a difference in regards to whether the question would get answered...

Obviously i am not going to start swearing at paizo and demanding i get a response. Officially we are supposed to make a thread, mark it as FAQ and wait for a response. That hasnt worked for this particular issue for the last 2 years, so i was asking why.

However your response seems to indicate that we are not allowed to ask why something has not been FAQed, why something has been marked as "answered in FAQ" with no actual FAQ, why you said that something was fixed when it was not or anything of that nature.

In that case can we get a confirmation that this is a official Paizo ruling that we are not allowed to ask questions of this nature?

Question wrote:

It is obvious that outside of special events like playtests, paizo staff barring mods do not actually read or respond to threads on the forums.

Evidence contradicting your assertion.

Evidence contradicting your assertion.
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(I didn't go back farther than mid-January, because I think I've proved my point.)
(And none of the above include about 100 replies to RPG Superstar questions in that same time period.)
(And if you look at my profile, it tells you I've made over 10,000 posts on the Paizo boards.)

Official posts by the design team about FAQ answers posted in response to rules questions.

Don't make false statements when they're so...

What about all the month or year old threads that never got a response? All you have done is proven that paizo staff respond to a relatively small portion of issues raised.

Although yes, if you want to get technical about it, i was wrong when saying that paizo doesnt respond at all, i should have instead said that paizo does not respond much.

Sure, i dont expect paizo to respond to literally every single post on the forums, but when people have been asking why the ice tomb hex has no range or duration for more than 2 years and paizo refuses to respond to any of the posts on the topic or FAQ candidates on the issue, people start wondering why. This particular issue was even marked as addressed in the errata/FAQ twice...once in 2011 and once in 2012, but no FAQ/Errata was released. I doubt this is the only issue that hasn't been addressed for a very long time...off the top of my head, the peacebond hex has no range either.

Ironically SKR himself said that the hex was only supposed to target creatures and it would go into the next printing of the book, but that didn't seem to happen either (and still no range/duration for this hex).

Theres a thread in the rules forum on ice tomb that has been there since october last year, but nobody from paizo ever responded to it, and its got, i think, 40+ FAQ requests for it. At bare minimum someone could have posted a quick "hey guys thanks for the heads up we are looking into this" and that would have made everyone happy. But with no indication that paizo has even noticed the thread after like 4 months, its natural that people are going to think that well, paizo really hasnt noticed it.

Since there are some paizo staff here in this thread i would like to take the chance to ask why nobody responded to any of the posts on this issue for more than two years, including the october thread on this issue in the rules forum.

Thats easy to say, but if your landlord isnt fixing your leaking roof for 2 years, do you think he will suddenly fix it this year? I mean he could also claim that he's "busy".

FAQs should be a core part of the business...its support for a product. You dont just sell something and say "yea we have your money now, run along". Imagine if microsoft never issued patches for windows because "we would have to pay developers to make the patches! that costs money!".

There is no reason for the FAQ process to be slow. Lets assume there is someone looking at the FAQ queue. It should go like this :

1. FAQ guy : *checks FAQ for this week* oh wow there are lots of requests for this class ability and there looks to be a lot of problems with this. I will shoot the original designer an email so he can take a look at it.

2. Designer : *gets email the same day* Ah crap i left out the range, duration and a lot of things. Let me see if i have them in my notes *opens up .doc file, ctrl+f ice tomb* Hmm, i dont have it here, well based on other similar abilities at the same level, i would give it X, Y and Z. *copy pastes and emails FAQ guy*

3. FAQ guy copy pastes it and posts it up on the website, marks FAQ as answered.

And before anyone says that it would take months to have the designer make a ruling, keep in mind that random people can do it in a few minutes in the middle of a game, so a designer of all people should at bare minimum be able to make the ruling in the same time frame. It honestly does not take long to quickly skim through the witch major hexes and see that most are 60 feet and assign 60 feet to ice tomb, or that most combat hexes are 1 round per level and assign the duration more appropriately. And the designer should be the person most familiar with the book he designed, so the "i need to spend months reading this book" excuse doesnt fly...

And for the more niche situations that would be harder to answer, they could just mark it as "needs more research" and answer it later, but give the range/duration first since thats quick and simple. Actually they dont even need to do research, they can just make a poll, get the people here to do the research for them, and check back in a week...

And this process should be taking 5 minutes tops, so you dont need to pull a designer off another project to do it, thats like the duration of a coffee break.

Now obviously this assumes the process is designed to be efficient, if company policy mandates that you need to get 3 designers in a 2 hour meeting with someone from management overseeing and someone has to prepare and present a 5 page proposal outlining the benefits of issueing an errata and get buy in from accounting...then yea obviously it's going to take months to get a one line FAQ up on the website...

Some interesting search results :

2012 thread, marked as answered in FAQ, but no actual FAQ can be found (certaintly not on the APG page) : http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9h1?What-is-the-range-on-Hexes-wo-specified-r anges#1

2011 thread, marked as answered in errata, but not actually answered in errata : http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mcc6?Witch-Ice-Tomb-Hex#1. SKR actually responded in this thread to clarify that it only affects creatures, but did not comment further on any other issue such as range/duration, and i have no idea if his post is considered official.

So we have confirmation that paizo has looked at this in 2011, marked it as addressed but...no actual FAQ or errata appeared for this...where did it go? Did someone simply forget to upload it to the website?

To be honest i think its more important to have working content then new, cool content. You could have 100 classes but if 90 are broken, what use are the 90?

IIRC SKR mentioned that Paizo doesnt go back and fix old content (barring the occasional errata) because they cant sell fixes...which may explain why theres very few FAQ entries.

It would only be a full time job if the initial printing of content was very badly done. For example lets say you release a new class with tons of vaugely, badly written class abilities. Well of course you are going to get swamped by FAQ requests, thats a simple result of releasing something broken.

Now take the fighter class for example. You dont see people requesting FAQs for "what proficiencies does the fighter have?" or "does armor training work for all armor types?"....because theres no need to. Those rules are very clear cut and there is no confusion at all. Either way someone would need to be looking at FAQ requests regardless of what format it is, if you want less FAQ requests, the only way is to get things right the first time around.

Theres a limit to how vauge you can release something. Giving GMs room to work with, sure. I mean by default, GMs have room to do anything they want, they could make the fighter class cast spells if they wanted to.

When you start releasing abilities that literally say "this does damage to something" then you may as well just print blank pages with [insert house rule here], because you are asking GMs to just make everything up.

Edit : I just found the ask james jacobs thread after some searching. Turns out its in the off-topic section...not exactly the place you would expect to go for official paizo responses to game issues.

If the target of ice tomb is "hibernating" while frozen (as he does not need to eat/breath) does it still suffer from poison, disease or any other similar ongoing effect? Description of Hex : http://tinyurl.com/l7d652m

Does the ice generated by ice tomb naturally melt on its own, assuming the temperature is above freezing? Description of Hex : http://tinyurl.com/l7d652m

Can a fire elemental or other flame covered creature still be entombed by ice hex? If yes, would their flames naturally melt the ice? Description of Hex : http://tinyurl.com/l7d652m

What happens if a target is magically flying/levitating/etc and is entombed? Does the magic still keep them afloat, or do they crash down to the ground? If the latter, do they take any falling damage or does the ice absorb all the falling damage? Description of Hex : http://tinyurl.com/l7d652m

Do targets entombed by ice hex take excess damage dealt to the ice? For example, if you deal 40 damage to the ice which has 20 hp, does the target inside the ice take the left over 20 damage? Description of Hex : http://tinyurl.com/l7d652m

Can a target immune or resistant to ice still be entombed by the ice tomb hex? Description of Hex : http://tinyurl.com/l7d652m

Can a creature entombed by ice tomb break out of the ice on its own, assuming it is immune to paralysis and unconciousness somehow? Description of Hex : http://tinyurl.com/l7d652m

If objects can be entombed by ice tomb, can undead/constructs be entombed but remain concious? Description of Hex : http://tinyurl.com/l7d652m

What is the target limitation of the ice tomb hex, can it entomb objects or part of a person's body only? Description of Hex : http://tinyurl.com/l7d652m

Ok let's test that theory.

What is the range and duration of the Ice Tomb Hex? Description of Hex : http://tinyurl.com/l7d652m

Original thread got locked because it got derailed with weapon cord discussion. Please keep the new thread restricted to ice tomb and errata for it.

Still waiting for an official paizo response as to why they wont issue an errata with range, duration, etc...considering it takes 5 minutes or less to do.

Initial post :

Really confused by this, there have been countless threads on this topic for months.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes/major-hexes/hex-ma jor-ice-tomb-su

Problems that i see :

-No clear indication of which targets can be affected by this hex. Can you use it on a sword to prevent someone from picking it up for example?

-As above, since undead are immune to effects that require a fortitude save, can ice tomb affect undead, since the description says the hex envelopes the target in ice? If yes, is it still concious in the ice but unable to move?

-What happens if a target cannot be knocked unconcious/paralyzed but is otherwise NOT immune to fort save effects in general? Is it covered in ice but concious?

-Unlike most other hexes, this has no listed duration, does the ice last forever or what?

-Does being immune or resistance to ice damage help prevent the effects in any way (other than taking damage obviously). Can a ice immune creature still be paralyzed/knocked unconcious by it?

-What happens if you attack the ice and do "overkill" damage, does any of it transfer to the creature trapped in the ice? E.G. Doing 40 damage to the 20 hp ice, does the creature trapped take the remaining 20 damage?

-What happens if you were to use it on a target that is magically flying/levitating/etc? Does the creature crash to the ground, overriding the fly/levitate/whatever spells, or does the ice covered creature float in mid air?

-Would a fire elemental or other flame covered creature still be covered by ice and entombed, or would they just melt the ice?

I really dont get why a major class ability has no errata when nobody knows how it should work. At the moment everyone is just making guesses and house rules.

Edit : There is also no range listed for this hex.

When I and others asked if they could play test errata like they do play tests for other material were told it's impossible. Or something along those lines. I just looked at weapon cords. They nerfed THAT. Really. Recovering a weapon with a swift action was too game breaking for some people so they made it a move action. Wow...just wow. I think people who are obsessed with balance who play this game keep missing the point. I buy a weapon cord to make sure to make it very hard to disarm any character. Otherwise why buy a weapon cordi n the first place. It's like Crane Wing. Hearing fellow gamers complain that a character using the non-errat version were too hard to hit. Again that's the point. I build a character around the concept of being hard to hit well he should be hard to hit. Tiny Hut provides cover to those inside of it's radius. That must be broken and needs to be nerfed then. Since sleeping characters have to be easy targets to hit at all times.

More time passes the more I'm unimpressed with the way Paizo handles errata. As well as those who need to balance and control everything within the rules.

Paizo doesnt issue errata based on balance, if it did things like crafting would have been issued errata.

They issue errata based on what they think is "realistic". Hence the whole weapon cords thing, because, IIRC, a paizo staff member tried it out IRL and decided it was unrealistic to be able to do it with a swift action.

At no point whatsoever did "this is overpowered" enter the equation.

IIRC a Paizo staff member also refused to admit that crafting times was unbalanced for most campaigns and would only insist over and over that it was realistic based on historical crafting times. Again, they refused to take into account game balance.

Really confused by this, there have been countless threads on this topic for months.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes/major-hexes/hex-ma jor-ice-tomb-su

Problems that i see :

-No clear indication of which targets can be affected by this hex. Can you use it on a sword to prevent someone from picking it up for example?

-As above, since undead are immune to effects that require a fortitude save, can ice tomb affect undead, since the description says the hex envelopes the target in ice? If yes, is it still concious in the ice but unable to move?

-What happens if a target cannot be knocked unconcious/paralyzed but is otherwise NOT immune to fort save effects in general? Is it covered in ice but concious?

-Unlike most other hexes, this has no listed duration, does the ice last forever or what?

-Does being immune or resistance to ice damage help prevent the effects in any way (other than taking damage obviously). Can a ice immune creature still be paralyzed/knocked unconcious by it?

-What happens if you attack the ice and do "overkill" damage, does any of it transfer to the creature trapped in the ice? E.G. Doing 40 damage to the 20 hp ice, does the creature trapped take the remaining 20 damage?

-What happens if you were to use it on a target that is magically flying/levitating/etc? Does the creature crash to the ground, overriding the fly/levitate/whatever spells, or does the ice covered creature float in mid air?

-Would a fire elemental or other flame covered creature still be covered by ice and entombed, or would they just melt the ice?

I really dont get why a major class ability has no errata when nobody knows how it should work. At the moment everyone is just making guesses and house rules.

Edit : There is also no range listed for this hex.

So at level 8 i finally have about 15k gold to spend.

Currently have a fortunate charm (re-roll skill/concentration check once per day), +1 cloak of resistance and +2 headband of int, a level 1 pearl of power and a ring of spell storing (5 levels).

I have craft wondrous item so that stretches my budget quite a bit if i can find the time to craft stuff (DM has a house rule, you cant craft if you are travelling, even if you are on a boat).

So i was thinking of getting :

+2 cloak of resistance - 1.5k

+4 headband of int - 6k

Gloves of healing (+5 to heal skill) - 1,250

That leaves me with about 6k gold left. Any suggestions? I was thinking a item that increased spellcraft alone would be good (and cheap) but i dont think theres one...

For the headband, what skill should i put in it, since i already have fly and most of my class skills maxed? I was thinking appraise would come in useful for selling loot and we dont have anyone who can do it.

Current hexes :

Slumber
fortune
misfortune
cackle
healing
flight

What hex should i take at level 8? I think most people would say scar, but i dont want to play loophole games with it or use it just to heal the party at long range. I was thinking charm would be nice in social situations, epecially since there are no vocal/somantic components?

For level 4 spells i have black tentacles and dimension door. I have two more new spells at this level, any recommendations for level 4 spells? I was thinking confusion and something else...

While we are at it, any advice for level 9+ (feats/hexes/spells/etc)?

Did you guys seriously just spend half a dozen pages argueing about a completely hypotethical and will never appear in an actual campaign situation where a 1st level witch takes on a lone monster way above her CR and wins with a lucky roll?

Why are you doing this instead of using actual situations that has happened in actual games? Im really confused by this. Nothing was achieved by argueing purely fantasy situations.

Or does someone want to talk about how forks are OP because a boy with a fork could thereotically kill a god if the stars were to align?

n o 417 wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Google how long it takes to craft chain mail or full plate.

This is a quite unfriendly response. Are we not allowed to ask how and if game mechanics relate to how things work in reality ?

If you want to know how long it takes a nonmagical character to nonmagically create a suit of nonmagical armor, it is perfectly appropriate (and friendly) to tell the person to do an internet search to find out how long it takes a nonmagical real-life Earth person to nonmagically create a suit of nonmagical armor. As it turns out, the times to create nonmagical armor in the game is pretty close to how long it takes someone to craft similar armor in real life.

The game at its basic level is attempting to model reality, so players can have a reasonable expectation of what their characters can do. Can I move across the room and open that door in the next six seconds? Can I jump over this 10-foot pit with a running start? Can I climb this tree? How far can I walk in a day? How long does it take to craft chainmail? Because the game is attempting to simulate reality, you can use reality as a benchmark for these questions.

And rather than including times, ranges, and explanations for everything you could possibly do (such as "what is a shovel used for?" and "how long does it take to dig a 5 x 5 x 5 hole with a shovel?"), if the game doesn't tell you something, the expectation is that you can draw on your own knowledge of the world--or, if you aren't knowledgeable in that area, look it up in a book or on the internet.

So whether your question is "can my character survive by eating only sugar?" or "how long does it take to craft chainmail?," the answer is available to you in the real world.

Very few people care about crafting realism. They are primarily interested in how the game plays. People do not play pathfinder, a game about travelling around the world killing bad guys for loot/xp for realism.

Seriously, i don't know why you don't understand this simple concept. How many people do you think play pokemon and complain Team Rocket isn't a realistic depiction of a terrorist organisation because they should be using guns and bombs instead of pokemon...i'm pretty sure the number of people who do this is about the same as the people who play pathfinder and complain that the rules aren't realistic enough.

I believe there was a link to third party crafting rules earlier in this thread. How many people complained it was unrealistic as opposed to liking it because the rules were usable? The answer to this question should tell you exactly how many people value crafting realism in pathfinder.

If you don't believe me, you are welcome to do a poll, on this very forums, to see whether players want super realistic crafting rules that are unusable in most campaigns or crafting rules that may not be realistic but which can be used like magic item crafting rules with minimal downtime.

Or are you going to tell us that you don't care about what most of your players and customers want, and only the opinions of the designers matter?

It really feels that way everytime i read one of your posts. You simply don't respond to feedback at all except to say "It's this way because i want it to be." And then you get into a "how realistic is this" argument when in reality you should be asking what your customers want. Since they are the ones paying your bills. But you and the rest of paizo has displayed zero interest in what players want and are simply insisting that it be this way because...you want it to be. I don't think im the only one getting frustrated by this.

Also, the way you/paizo cherry picks things and says "this should be unusable because of REALISM" and then point to other non-magical things and says "yea lets ignore realism for this one" is really really strange and i honestly cannot understand the rationale behind this.

At first i thought it was 5 + CL of the item.

However : http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pearl -of-power seems to imply otherwise, since you can make a level 1 pearl with a CL of 1 (contary to the stated CL of 17 for pearls of power).

So if im understanding this correctly, a level 1 pearl of power would have a spellcraft check of 5 + 1 to make?

Does this only apply to pearls of power or every item?

For example a headband of intelligence has a CL of 8, but the spell fox's cunning is a level 2 spell. Is the spellcraft DC 5 + 8 or 5 + 3 (since a 3rd level caster can cast the level 2 spells necessary to make it)?

It's for free because we wouldn't be charging people for these updates. Unless you're suggesting we do charge for these updates, which means we'd technically be charging for errata, which isn't cool.

But you are NOT making updates for free...for the same reason that any current FAQs/erratas you do aren't free either. A portion of the money you are getting from PDF/book/etc sales are already going towards paying staff for any FAQ/Erratas they do. This is what pretty much every business does. Microsoft doesnt charge you for patches because you are already paying for them. The city doesn't knock on your door and demand you pay for road repairs because your taxes are already going to that.

Basically what you are saying is that microsoft has teams of unpaid developers working on windows updates because window updates are free. Thats really not how it works, they are getting paid....from the sales of windows. Like you are getting paid from sales of paizo products. If you are telling me that accounting refuses to pay you to update paizo products because the company is going bankrupt, thats an entirely different story.

I disagree that our products "work partly."

There is ample evidence on these forums and elsewhere on the net that certain aspects of the game are clearly broken or were never meant to actually be used in real games. I mean you could start a poll here, right on your very own forums, to see whether players think the game is perfect, and im pretty sure the answer would be a definate no...

We are satisfied with books when they go out the door. If we discover problems, we issue errata. Issuing errata usually takes a few hours of the design team's time, a few hours of the editorial team's time, and a few hours of the layout and tech team's time.

What you're suggesting is adding a playtest period to update books that were finished months before. A playtest eats up about a week of the design team's time, and a similar amount of time for the editors, layout specialists, and PDF team.

Im really not seeing how this is possible unless it is a VERY complicated rules problem or you are describing the process to issue an errata for an entire book and not just one rule.

It literally takes maybe 5 minutes or less to call up the designer in charge of the product and ask "hey, how did you intend for X to work?" and edit the grammar in a sentence for something like Vital Strike (which generated massive amounts of rules confusion when it first came out, and STILL generates a massive amount of confusion with feats like Spring Attack, which i will note Paizo has repeatedly refused to address in any official capacity).

Infact how about we test this out? I will write a feat from scratch, and intentionally make it poorly worded. I will make a thread for this and we will see how long it takes me to issue an errata once you or someone else askes "hey, i dont understand how this works, clarify please?". I will even take a stop watch and time how long it takes me to issue an errata once i receive the question and start working on it.

I disagree that our FAQs are the "bare minimum." I don't think you understand the amount of work that goes into reviewing the flagged FAQ questions, evaluating the rules in question, and creating a consensus response.

I dont think Paizo has the whole process explained somewhere (correct me if im wrong please), i dont think most people know what the process is either. From the sounds of it im guessing you dont just ask the designer in charge how he wanted X to work and fix it in a few minutes though, and maybe thats the problem there.

I used to work at a company that had a ridiculously long convulated process to get anything clarified. You had to go through several chains of people to get an answer, and you were not allowed to skip to the end of the chain and just ask the decision maker, because high level managers would get pissed if the people talking to them weren't of the appropriate rank. And since it took several hours bare minimum for everyone to check their emails and respond to each other, a simple question took at least one business day to get clarified and god forbid someone needs to hold a meeting to discuss it.

I'm not saying thats what's happening here though.

I dont get why you are quoting some stuff that i definately did not write but appears as my name? Is this a misquote?

Sorry if this is going off topic, maybe we should start a new thread for this?

Google how long it takes to craft chain mail or full plate.

I am bemused everytime someone attempts to use the "but it works this way in real life!" argument, in a game where most of the mechanics do not follow real life.

This is particularly true when you consider that crossbows do not function like in real life, nor do bows, or any number of things.

It seems to me that the designers are cherry picking certain elements that they feel should be "realistic" without any regards to how it works in gameplay (i would like to see the designers craft something in an actual playtest campaign for example) while allowing other, non-magical elements to be unrealistic for some unknown purpose.

I think theres something wrong when feedback threads about how broken an aspect of the game is always degenerates into a designer using one liners about realism or just dead silence from all paizo staff, instead of working together with the players to collect, analyze and respond to feedback.

This thread would have been a perfect place for Paizo to find out how players in general feel about the crafting rules and bounce off ideas off them, but as a whole, the only feeling i get from Paizo is a sense of "CBF" (please correct me if i am wrong and Paizo is watching this thread with interest and having internal discussions about how to proceed further).

I hear they do nothing except try and full attack all day in combat and out of combat they dont really have the skills for anything useful (combined with the fact that almost all of their skills use dump stats for modifiers...).

None of the combat maneveurs seem useful unless you are fighting predominantly humanoid enemies. Trying to disarm a dragon or trip a hydra generally does not work well.

Depends on the logic i guess? If fireballs arent capable of harming your clothes, which are presumably made out of flammable material, then why would it harm something in your back pack? Especially considering the back pack is covering the familiar or party member. Anything that can penetrate the back pack to get at whatever is within would obviously harm the back pack or a piece of paper in it too.

Considering the familiar is the spell book for a witch i think it would be unjust to be making effects specially aimed at killing it when its hidden unless the GM wants to run a campaign where people go after the wizard spell books or cleric holy symbol in combat all the time too.

I tried to ask this in the rules forum but nobody seems to have any idea over there...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/limp-lash

The spell description is very vauge and seems poorly written. Looking at it, i see the following problems :

1. You strike the target with the whip, he start taking ability penalties, is he paralyzed or hindered in any other way?

2. The whip has a maximum range of 20 ft. If the target is not paralyzed or otherwise prevented from moving, what happens when he moves out of the 20 ft range? The spell dissipates or ?

3. Can you take any actions while holding the whip?

4. What happens if some effect attempts to displace the whip (e.g. wall of stone between you and the target), or some effect moves the target away (e.g. bull rush)?

Looking at the SRD it seems that official updates have been made to clarify some vauge rules before. How does that work?

Drachasor wrote:

Changing taste, small tasks, creating small items, and all that Prestidigitation does are things that higher level Witch Spells or Witch Hexes can do. The largest complaint one could possibly have is that the name might not be perfect.

Um... meaning no offense here, but... still failing to find a compelling reason for them to have it.

Witches are not scholarly; their magic is not the result of study and practice. It is grafted onto them by their strange Patrons; the presence of magics that do things like Prestidigitation with stronger spells and hexes does not (imo) mean that that cantrip somehow "belongs" on their spell list. Witches do not learn magic in logical, rational steps: witch magic is far more a thing of passion and intuition, by all the "standard" witch thematics.

I don't know anyone who's actually passionate about the daily chores which Prestidigitation eases.

Sorcerers are not scholarly; their magic is not the result of study and practice. It is grafted onto them by their strange bloodlines; the presence of magics that do things like Prestidigitation with stronger spells and bloodline abilities does not (imo) mean that that cantrip somehow "belongs" on their spell list. Sorcerers do not learn magic in logical, rational steps: Sorcerer magic is far more a thing of natural ability and bloodline powers, by all the "standard" sorcerer thematics.

Fixed.

I believe Nanny Og had something to say on this matter. I will have to find the quote.

Something about not using magic for things you can do with your own two hands.

But the witch has unseen servant on her spell list?

And besides. When was the last time you saw a clean house that a witch lived in?

Probably every witch who doesn't want to catch some disease and die early.

I don't know what to tell you, except "all spell lists are arbitrary." Perhaps the mysterious patrons don't want their mighty gifts used as parlor tricks. Or maybe they figure there's nothing prestidigitation can do that the witch couldn't do just as easily with a little physical labor (and maybe some cloth dye and ice cubes.)

Well actually, we all know the reason why witches dont get the spell is because paizo didnt give it to them. Im just wondering why...it seems like an odd design choice to make.

I always thought it odd that wizards didn't get Sleight of Hand. Card tricks, misdirection, the odd gestures they have to use casting spells---it seems like a natural fit.

I think you are confusing stage magic with actual magic.

Presdigation seems like something even witches would have to take care of daily stuff though.

Feels weird to me. It seems like a standard spell that most, if not all, arcane casters would have.

Trying to get together another group since the last one disintegrated.

Currently have a few players interested. Looking for a DM atm, if there's none, i can try to DM an adventure path, something simple (probably rise of the runelords). I can't guarantee that it will be for the long term though, since classes might interfere with it, and i've never DMed before, so it might turn out to be crap.

Anyone interested in the idea, contact me on skype : ianc2@mailblocks.com (don't try to send email there, it won't work).

Well as written, the spell doesnt say what happens after it wears off. Does the target remember everything clearly?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hypnotism

Hynoptism just seems to be a much better version of charm. More versatile, and casting isnt seen as a hostile act (unless someone suceeds their saving throw or spellcraft check). It also specifically says the targets dont remember that you enspell it.

Unless you stack both silent and still spell, everyone in the vicinity is going to know you just casted a spell or have a suspicion that you did. Which defeats the point of using charm person in the first place.

Can anyone give some examples of how they have used this spell effectively without the above feats, or casting it from very long ranges?

Also, let's say you just walk up to someone and charm him before he can react. He becomes friendly to you. Does he still know you charmed him? What about after the spell wears off?

So can anyone explain why there are so many bad GMs out there?

I'm confused as to why there are so many bad DMs. Being a good DM is one thing, but it takes special "effort" to become a bad DM. This is something you have to go out of your way to do really.

Over the years, pretty much every DM i've met had problems. Some notable highlights :

-Throwing epic level(DC 35+) save or die effects at a level 15 party, then insisting it was fair because some encounters are supposed to be tougher than normal.

-"Sandbox" campaign where the DM sat and watched everyone eat breakfast at an inn without doing anything, for several hours while the party was trying to figure out why they were at this inn. Later, the DM then did rocks fall everyone die after the party got stuck in a "easy puzzle" because he wanted to run shadowrun.

-The usual "this puzzle is so amazing guys! just wait till you figure it out!" then getting increasingly frustrated when the party fails to see the "obvious solution". Whole campaign fails because the party is unable to get past the puzzle and the DM refused to do anything else except wait for the puzzle be solved.

-DM who kept showing up drunk, passing out unconcious, spent 2 hours trying to figure out what his DMPC was supposed to say at a crucial plot point and then handwaving it all after he gave up.

-DM that introduced incoherent plotpoints because he rolled for -everything- randomly. Caravan escort -> attacked by birds -> found a egg -> egg dissapeared from our possession -> attacked by cultists -> cultists summoned cthulhu.

-DM that always spent half the session looking through his notes and books trying to figure out what was supposed to be happening or what the room looked like. "Okay guys, just let me look this up..."

-DM that allowed his BFF to throw childish tantrums at the table, alienating the majority of the players in addition to playing a min-maxed character concept based on "killing the entire party if they made him mad". The player was 28 years old. Physically at least.

-"You guys start in a tavern" "I flirt with the barmaid" *rest of session was the DM roleplaying the barmaid flirting with one of the PCs and ignoring everyone else when they tried to do something*

Most common problem i've seen is that the DM always has huge social issues. E.G. Player does something he doesn't like, his solution is simply to say "it doesn't work" or ignore the player entirely instead of talking with him and figuring out a course of action.

Even DMs who are supposedly really experienced and "know what they are doing" do these things.

This is getting really old...

Why does this thread keep derailing into the "correct" way to compare builds?

Waiting to see how the DM responds to the reply i just posted.

The problem i find with puzzle like encounters is that it quite often degenerates into situations where the players are stuck, frustrated, and the DM is doing nothing but watching the players talk among themselves.

An Inquisitor is a ranged class in exactly the same way that a Cleric is a healing class...

Its a class with 3/4th bab, medium armor, limited access to melee martial weapons but full access to the best ranged weapon (longbow) and a class ability that grants bonuses to attack/damage rolls that favor more attacks.

I honestly can't see why you would want to go melee when you can rapid shot arrows with judgement/bane bonuses from round one.

I don't think this thread about the summoner anymore.

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