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I know it's kind of cheesy but as I have little experiance having DR (a lot more fighting against it, when HP's are unknown and the DM likes to fudge things) I wasn't so sure my original intention of just using Combat Expertise for 4/-- was going to be enough. I do only have 19 AC at level 5. I'm not sure it's enough yet for the build to completely rely on it for tanking.

I understand completely. I've never played anything that had DR either so the Invul. Rager was a really cool choice for me. As for AC, you're doing alright. Pre-penalties, I was at 14 AC all the way through to 8th level. Got it down to 8 when I RECKLESSCHARGERAGEPOWERSMASH'd! Our Cleric had to adjust though. He's got Empowered heals and Sacred Bond is a regular spell for him. Sounds like you're more considerate to your party than I am.

But yeah, your DR shouldn't be game breaking. Although it doesn't hurt to let the DM know you'll work with him if he has trouble with it.

try again... I quoted reduce.

My bad. That's what I get for scanning. Although it's odd that reduce person changes projectile damage while enlarge doesn't.

IejirIsk quotes a source for Enlarge Person:

Quote:

Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

Sorry misremembering... was cause of the weapon me and a friend were using.

And Nebten does the same:

It appears there is a miscommunication here.

Dakota, are you saying that an archer under the effects of Enlarge Person still keeps the ranged weapon's damage die increased? If so, you are incorrect. You may houserule it anyway you want though.

Enlarge Person wrote:

Enlarge Person wrote:

All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.

Only Melee weapons have their damage die increased.

Assuming nobody is changing the quotes to suit their needs, it looks like one of you is using an errata'd form of Enlarge Person and the other isn't. Nebten's is in line with D20PFSRD, which I use for reference because I don't own books.

I don't understand how this works, though - Combat Expertise and fighting defensively increase your AC, not your DR.

He's utilizing the Stalwart feat.

I'm more or less doing the same thing as you, except I didn't take the first level of Unbreakable Fighter. I've got 8 levels of Invul. Rager under my belt and I have a lot of fun with him. I've found that surviving gets much easier as I level.

Because I use Reckless Abandon to offset my attack penalty, I've accepted my AC is going to be trash until I invest heavily into it. There's the -2 AC from raging, and if you use Reckless Abandon in conjunction with Combat Expertise, you lose 1 AC for every 4 levels you have. (That's if your DM is nice and lets you use character levels for determining the effects of R.A. Otherwise you're behind by a level).

In a way your Magus is right. DR 2/-- is a big deal at 5th level, but because nothing else gets DR that early. I feel Invulnerability scales well as you level and remains a constant help without being too strongk at any point. It's (Improved) Stalwart that tips it over. And fighting defensively is borderline rude, in my opinion.

But that's only if the DM can't handle it. DR doesn't affect spells or elemental damage. All those extra DR bonuses are lost if you are denied your Dex bonus, since they stem from Dodge bonuses. Superstition will let you avoid most SoD/SoS spells and others will only be partial effect. But that means your Cleric's spells will invariably heal for half, which can suck when combined with a smart DM willing to alter the encounters. Your DR can also be a help to the DM. If that Behir is deciding between your 6 HP Cleric and you with your 30 HP and the DM doesn't want to kill a player yet, you make a great punching bag.

I ignore 2 points of damage when I'm hit? Is it really that strong?

Let's be honest, it's not just 2 points. You obviously stack the DR, which is fine since it's what your character does. But don't try to downplay it, because this is a strongk build.

All this is My Opinion™

As far as I know, it would be 20 as Morale Bonuses don't stack, only the highest one is used. So he would gain 10+1(Dex)+9 Ghost Rager(7 from Superstition, 2 from half the bonus on the sword).

So, you're saying that Ghost Rager adds a "pre-Courageous" Superstition bonus to your Touch AC which is then boosted by the sword? I'm cool with that.

And what about Ghost Rager's AC bonus vs. corporeal touch attacks?

P.S.: Forgot the -2 Rage penalty to AC in the example. Oh well, you knew what I was asking.

tl;dr:
1) Can you double dip on the benefit from Courageous when determining Superstition's saving throws and converting to Ghost Rager's Touch AC bonus?
2) Does Ghost Rager's Touch AC bonus apply to incorporeal touch attacks, or all touch attacks?

The Barbarian's Ghost Rager rage power provides a couple benefits:

And the rather Barbarian-friendly magic weapon property Courageous:

The Superstition rage power is also a morale bonus and therefore, benefits from Courageous. Does the enhancement bonus of the weapon essentially get "double-dipped" when determining the Barbarian's Touch AC? Here's an example for those who want one:

The morale saving throw bonus from Superstition is modified by Courageous. That saving throw bonus is then added to the Touch AC as a morale bonus, triggering the boost from Courageous.

If I wanted to craft my Barbarian to win, I would try to argue that RAW allows this since they are two separate morale bonuses. However, the whole thing just seems shady and I wouldn't bat an eyelash if the DM shot it down. Per RAW, what is allowed?

Bonus Question: Does the Touch AC bonus apply to just touch attacks from incorporeal creatures or ALL touch attacks? Ghost Rager doesn't specify, but it feels that it is meant to deal with incorporeals. On the other hand, Ghost Rager does list Superstition as a prerequisite and that DOES deal with all magic.

As you can probably infer from my previous post, I do not think it is tricky at all. Rage Powers are meant to be in effect during rages, hence their name and the general rule. Nowhere does it state that Superstition is an exemption.

Honestly, I agree with you. But I've come to terms with the drawbacks and my opinion of it has definitely improved. It's not a must-have for every barbarian I think of building, but it's a cool start to a cool line of powers.

Even after having posted in this very thread, I keep reading the title as 'Sell me on superposition'.

Quantum Barbarian.

When I finally get to play another barbarian, that's what I'm going to write on the sheet. You sir, had me chuckling off and on for a good while.

My first instinct was to say Barbarian. But I'm biased. The pieces of advice I have for you are (in order):

1)Play something that you are interested in. Games are meant to be fun. If you don't enjoy it then you're wasting your time.

2)Play something that doesn't detract from your group's experience. You don't want to kill your buddies' enjoyment.

3)Play something that complements the group's capabilities. The longer you all live, the longer you play the character you enjoy.

That being said, try out the rage prophet if that's what caught your eye first. There's something to be said for gut instincts and the internet is usually the last place you should look for to gain affirmation. In your shoes, I would go with a Bard. They look like fun and their party buffs get more mileage out of a larger group like yours. But don't forget about archetypes! You say "cookie-cutter builds" but with archetypes, you're no longer looking at just a Monk. You've got a grappling monk, an archer monk, a martial art styles fusion monk, etc. The same goes with any class. Believe it or not, I find an archer rogue more interesting than an archery Ranger.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Yes, the bonus saves apply to spells, spell-likes, and supernatural abilities. But the drawback says "While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies."

So, would you let your player take the full channel or Lay on Hands heal by the wording of that sentence? Or is that being too much of a rules lawyer?

I disagree, superstition says "you gain +2 moral bonus to saves against spells" then later it says "while raging you can not be the willing target of a spell". If the bonus to saves really was ment to only apply when raging it would have said so.

Hmmm, this is a tricky one. The Rage Powers entry sets a universal rule, meaning Superstition would explicitly need an exception included. But by setting a condition for the penalty to occur (which should be assumed, set by Rage Powers) the exception for the bonus is inferred.

I imagine it will boil down to GM preference. From a game mechanics point of view, I would say the bonus follows the blanket "Rage Powers only while raging." But from any other angle, I would allow it. Is your superstition only supposed to have benefits when you can no longer fully use your cognitive abilities? That's just silly.

Speaking of mechanics, Superstition forces you to not be a willing target of spells. It doesn't mention spell-like and supernatural abilities. Are they all lumped together by the term "spells"? Does the "flavor" of the power include those anyways? Do superstitious people only have beef with certain kinds of abilities?

Who said you have to begin every fight raging and stay raging whenever physically possible? The bonus to saves applies all the time, but the need to roll for saves vs. helpful spells only applies while raging. Is there a reason you can't just refrain from raging for the first round or two of combat while you get buffed?

Aside from that, I don't see how it's any different than any other melee character in a low-prep situation.

Well slap my pappy and call me Winona. I was under the impression that because it was a rage power, it only came into effect while raging. You sir, have taken that particular can of worms and thrown it on the ground. That hasn't eased all my points of apprehension (half healing is still bleh) but as Meatloaf says, "Two out of three ain't bad."

Umbral Reaver, if you can see the fight coming I would agree with that idea completely. But what about dungeon crawls/surprise fights where any door could lead to the BBEG? I understand you can't plan for every contingency but if your strategy revolves around being prepared, you might have to roll a character within the first few times of being surprised.

Mikaze, I really dig some of those ideas and they help get the brain juices flowing. I guess it can be easy to get so focused on the title of the power that you forget a cool fluff story can cover why it does what it does. I guess question 2 wasn't as difficult as I made it out to be!

Fromber, I had assumed the healer would need to land a touch attack because the barbarian wouldn't be a willing target. I've never done PFS so I don't know what difference that makes for a game. My only game experience with a barbarian in PFRPG is in the Jade Regent AP. So far, stuff can hit pretty hard in that. Even just 3 DR makes that big of a difference in your survival? And what about archetypes other than the Invulnerable Rager? Do you need to have at least double the DR any other archetype gets to make Superstition viable? I get that some options just don't work great with everything, but that would be a wee bit ridiculous.

To start off, I love Barbarians. And while Superstition seems cool (I DO want to use it), I really love the rage powers it leads into. But the penalty just seems extremely severe to me. So I'll ask a couple questions and try to throw out counterpoints for you folks to smash to bits. Hopefully this will ease the doubts of myself and other like minded people. I'm not looking for a way to negate the penalties. It's more of "How do I work with the penalties" with a side of pros vs cons. Remember, the more ideas that get thrown around, the better!

1) You can't be a willing target of a spell. This means your healer is going to have to land touch attacks to heal you. And because you'll most likely make your save, it'll only be at half strength. Buffs are not likely to succeed at low levels, even harder at higher levels. How do you deal with these problems?

2) As far as I know, Superstition doesn't specifically state that you hate magic and those who use it. But that's the common attitude of the board it seems (and I agree with that view). Sure, occasional party conflict is fun. But constantly hating party members is just no good in my book. How do you deal with the role play challenges?

I don't like Groundbreaker's DC. It doesn't scale, and it doesn't really start spectacular either. The Archer will have an easier time splitting up his attacks if there's a lot of weak enemies. I'd say leave it to the Arcanist, but it seems the group lacks one. A cleric could still fit the role with Sound Burst or something, maybe.

To be honest, with a saving throw like that, I wasn't even thinking about using Ground Breaker to knock opponents prone. I was just thinking of the difficult terrain to help control the battlefield. How useful do you folks find difficult terrain?

Dazzling Display and terrifying howl are good. Ground breaker with a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes work well with Antagonize, Nimble Moves, and/or Pushing Assault. With the above you can force opponenets to move around at your leisure with a decent modifier in Intimidate to either group them up and go nuts with AoE in the form of Great Cleave, or pick them off with AoOs thanks to Combat Reflexes, come and get me, a reach weapon, difficult terrain (ground breaker), and Pushing Assault. Prudent use of combat manuevers can help as well, though the feats to improve these aren't often neccessary with proper planning.

Yuma is a "battlefield-/crowd- control" barbarian himself, albiet of of higher level (still a WIP but feel free to take a look).

Thanks! These sound like some pretty cool techniques. I have to admit, I'm hesitant to take Ground Breaker. The ninja won't have issues with it and the zen archer can stand still and still do his job. But having the cleric walking through difficult terrain to heal me has me worried. Has anybody had issues where Ground Breaker wasn't useful, wasn't used, or was just plain bad for the group?

I'm pretty new to Pathfinder and I'm playing a 4th level regular barbarian in Jade Regent. As a barbarian, I'm assuming I don't need to do much to keep my "single target damage" competitive. But I'm actually looking to be able deal with groups of enemies. We've also got a ninja, zen archer, and a cleric. I figured the ninja and archer will be plinking off enemies one at a time.

So, any advice on how to build a barbarian to handle groups? So far, the 3 things I've got my eye on are Great Cleave, Dreadful Carnage, and Terrifying Howl. Is that all I'll need?