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I have a Maneuver Master 2/Synthesist 2 that's pretty out of this world for its level - would probably be even stronger as a Monk 1/Synthesist 3. Quadruped w/ Pounce + Flurry of Maneuvers + Dragon Style allows me to get 3 attacks and a maneuver in almost every turn. The ability to charge so frequently (from Dragon Style) effectively gives me an 80 ft movement speed, too. Typical high Synthesist HP, Perception of +20, and AC is easily 25+. First build I've ever played that feels overpowered enough to be problematic.

Wayangs are the only small characters without a Str penalty. This screams for a small fighter or something similar.

That was my first thought as well. I've been plotting a Wayang switch hitter Alchemist for a while now - would be more brutal going Vivisectionist, but I like the idea of having bombs available. Go Grenadier, grab proficiency with a lucerne hammer or the like, and have at it.

I'm not overly experienced with the magus, but my perspective echoes some others - the magus has moments where he really shines, but overall, he isn't over-powered. The spectacle of a critting shocking grasp is hard to match at lower levels, but as some have pointed out, casting defensively + low spell slots + lower base damages tends to even things out over the course of the adventure. You may be the savior of a battle or two, but you'll also have a few where you're subpar, or par at best.

I do think you make a good point about the class' inherent synergy. Looking over its abilities, everything does seem pretty streamlined, in comparison to, say, an alchemist, which I think requires more focus on the player's part to make a build coalesce.

Personally, if I was to do this, I'd probably take a level or two of monk, with the remaining being druid.

I'd take a monk archetype that doesn't rely on scaling abilities like flurrying, like the Master of Many Styles. Taking the Dragon Style feats can really boost your damage if you start with a decent Str. Alternatively, you could go Monk 1/Brawler 3, picking up the Brawler's +1 attack/+3 damage to your IUS. Those 4 non-druid levels would keep your companion at full strength with Boon Companion.

Might not fit your concept, but that seems like a solid way to build a druid that deals worthwhile IUS damage.

Awesome, indeed. Kudos for having such a great attitude in such a sticky situation, too.

I see the vagueness here. Personally, I'd agree that a Crane Style deflection does not constitute a miss for the purposes of Snake Style (because it otherwise would have been a hit). Also, both Crane Riposte and Snake Fang are dealing with AoOs - I'm not sure you can simultaneously take two AoOs provoked by the same action.

One level in Trapper Ranger gives DD as class skill and the ability to disable magical traps. Don't have to worry about the BAB-and-Saves draw-back of the rogue.

My guess is that the Master Summoner's diminished eidolon is at odds with the Wild Caller's enhanced eidolon. In the former archetype, the eidolon is weaker because of the summoner's connection to summoning other creatures. In the latter, the eidolon is strengthened because of the summoner's connection to the powers of its fey heritage. In this sense, the two archetypes are thematically and mechanically incompatible.

Do I think they would be awesome together? Yes. Does it sound like they would not be incompatible in your particular concept? Absolutely. But this is my best guess as to the general intent behind their excluding each other. As recommended, in the context of home games, you might be able to argue for their stacking.

As I stated in the other thread, this is my interpretation, too. I agree that, from a player perspective, it's of course unfortunate, but them's the breaks, I guess. :(

With regards to Wild Caller - is that applicable to Master Summoners as well, because if it is then that is absolutely the perfect class for me. My eidolon could take the form of a forest sprite of some sort and I'll take Summon Elder Worm over Gate every day of the week.

It's not obvious at a glance, but the Wild Caller's replacement of SM for SNA says, "This ability otherwise functions like the standard summoner’s summon monster I ability and replaces that ability." The Master Summoner has a similar text as well, so I think it's pretty clear the archetypes don't stack. It'd be nice, of course, but I'm not surprised the developers would want to avoid that.

As far as archetypes: both the Weapon Master and the Two-Weapon Warrior have applicable abilities, though none of them come on board until level 9+. Two-weapon Warrior gives you more opportunities to attack with both weapons, whereas Weapon Master boosts work well when you know what weapon you're going to be using, and there are some critical-focused abilities at levels 13 and 17. Either is a valid possibility.

I respectfully disagree that you don't need a high Cha. Here's why:

- It adds summon SLAs. Since this is what you do, every one of those is precious.

- High Cha = more spells. My level 4 summoner with 22 Cha (19 base + 1 at level 4 + 2 headband) has 5 level 1 spells and 3 level 2s. Were he at 18, he'd have two less - notable difference for a class with as few spells to spare as the summoner. Being able to drop 3 hastes/day at level 4 is pretty awesome.

- Save DCs. Yes, your list has a lot of buffs, etc on it. But if you're focusing on casting (the presumed route for a Master Summoner), you're still going to want to use spells like Glitterdust, Grease, and Black Tentacles. I.e. pump those DCs.

Now, for other summoner builds (archery focused, for instance), it makes sense to lower Cha in favor of other abilities. But if you're focusing on casting, that Cha needs to be as high as possible, IMHO. Personally, I think you could get away with a 14 Con and 8 Str - at level 5, you can always give your eidolon flight and fly away from the danger.

Lots of good/encouraging advice and comments. Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in here.

I've only been playing for a bit over a year, and I started GMing 6 months+ ago. I agree that there's no teacher like experience. As long as you have a good group of people who are willing to learn with you, and potentially help you along the way, then you're good to go. You'll make mistakes, of course, but as long as everyone is on the same page, they won't be a problem. GMing is very fun/addictive, and you'll learn a *lot* about the game, which makes you a better player as much as a better GM.

One thing I've found is that each encounter can be a learning experience. The first time I attacked my players with an invisible summoner, for instance, I realized I bit off a lot more than I could chew rules-wise: I wasn't prepared to handle the complex interactions between stealth, perception, invisibility, and positioning. So be ready for ending up in the deep end of the pool inadvertently at times. But again, that's how you learn.

Good luck! As long as you play with the right people, you should enjoy it.

I second the surprise-excitement over Oreads. I've never before been a fan of "my mom hooked up with a elemental" races, but those look great. Never thought I'd want to play a summoner with a race that took a penalty to Cha, but Shaitan Binder looks like fun and then some.

Kitsune and Varana also surprised me by catching my eye.

Personally, I would confirm whether the point buy method is of the 3.5 or Pathfinder variety before I got all excited.

While you might get some good advice here, OP, I would just search the Advice threads for "X build," with "X" being a class you were interested in. There are a ton of inspirational builds in the archives. Not to give you homework - you're just more likely to get a larger pool of information that way.

Monk. Monk. Monk, and.... Monk.

Thirded. I'm just finishing up playing a Synthesist/Maneuver Master which, in the words of my GM, was defined by "general pwntheworldness." Pounce + three natural attacks + flurry of maneuvers + Dragon Style is absolutely devastating. And as the others have said, the combination of Wis to AC, the natural armor boosts of the Synthesist, and the ability to Mage Armor yourself makes achieving a high AC easy. Plus, you have hit points to spare.

The two classes mesh incredibly well together, and are well worth setting back the synthesist a level or two if built right.

Grick wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

If it didn't allow everything that's normally part of a full-attack, it wouldn't be telling you that you can only do this during a full-attack.

This also opens up TWF with Flurry of Maneuvers.

A level 1 monk with 10 strength and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat could do the following:

Primary Unarmed strike -2 (BAB0, -2 TWF)
Off-hand Unarmed strike -2 (BAB0, -2 TWF)
Bonus Grapple -1 (full BAB, -2 CM penalty)

At level three, he could:

Primary Unarmed Strike +0 (BAB2, -2 TWF)
Off-hand Trip -1 (full BAB, -2 CM, -2 TWF)
Bonus Grapple +1 (full BAB, -2 CM)

Correct?

Your numbers are a tad off: remember that any penalties to your attacks also applies by default to combat maneuvers. Thus, if you TWF in a FoM, your ordinary attacks are at the usual -2 (from TWF) but any maneuver(s) are at a total of -4 (-2 from TWF and -2 from FoM).

I recently was thinking about combining TWF and Flurry of Maneuvers, and I also came to the same conclusion as Jiggy. Given that combat maneuvers are modified by the same things that modify attacks, it follows that the TWF penalty would apply to FoM as well.

I've considered a Dervish Dance switch hitter alchemist before. The Grenadier archetype's Alchemical Weapon ability allows you to add alchemical items such as acid flasks to your weapons - that'd be a good damage boost. Also, the Dex mutagen would add +2 to attack and damage, AND buff your ranged attacks (presumably bombs) as well. All that strikes me as some nice synergy.

Otherwise, I'd look to find another way to buff damage if I was doing a Dex-based switch-hitter. Magus could work.

Edit: Obviously, all this is not helpful if you're set on a Ranger.

Not sure what the rest of your build plan is, but the Brawler archetype provides a scaling +1 attack/+3 damage to weapons in the close weapon group, which includes unarmed strikes, heavy shields, and spiked shields. That would certainly add some "punch" to your Vicious Stomps, and would work with your shield as well. Picking up Dragon Style is a quick and easy way to add an additional 1/2 your Str to your first IUS, with Dragon Ferocity doing this once again.

At level 7, with 20 Str, that's +13 to your first IUS every round. Not bad for an extra attack, especially if you're also full-attacking with flurry of maneuvers.

I'd assume it's options 1 or 2, but can't go beyond that.

Worth noting that with an Int of 7, you wouldn't be able to take any of the Improved combat maneuver feats, which I assume would be a problem if you're going Lore Warden.

This is clearly a niche build, but I've contemplated a Dervish Dance alchemist a bit. The Grenadier archetype would grant proficiency with the scimitar, and the Alchemical Weapon ability would add some bang to your damage (as would your Dex mutagen, albeit minimally). Taken further, you could stack the Vivisectionist archetype as well for sneak attack, although doing so negates a lot of the abilities granted by the Grenadier.

Just something I've been thinking about.

Few scattered thoughts:

- Since the summoner can control the placement of where the summons appear, he can at times set them up into flank, or near so enough to be reasonable, which takes care of the problem.

- Gnomes can use their Speak with Animals SLA to actually talk to their summons (though granted, it's extremely limited in its use).

-Once you get to level 3, this becomes less of a concern, as you can start summoning elementals with whom you can speak.

Elemental Fist as a bonus feat, used as a monk, and perhaps even scaling like it does for the Monk of the Four Winds, might work. Could be an available arcana.

I like the idea of Wis for spellcasting, although giving the class Wis to AC wholesale might step on the monk's territory way too much. Maybe some kind of scaling dodge bonus later on - starting at level 7? - that cannot exceed the monk's Wis (so, a Wis-based Canny Dodge that starts at level 7).

No spellstrike with IUS? That doesn't seem very monky, no?

It might be appropriate to have something replace Spell Recall, although obviously that won't be a fan favorite.

hanging

Not sure if this is applicable to your question, but I would almost prefer being able to pick and choose between three 25 pg pdfs for $4 each than one 75 pg pdf for $10. Which is to say, I'd prefer to pick and choose which type of content I purchase. So having minilines, each with a different focus such as an encounter, a new town, new monsters, etc would be great for me. But again, that's a personal thing.

all

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emptiness

Personally, I would be inclined to take another monk archetype besides the Weapon Master - especially since Quarterstaff Master is already giving you access to Weapon Specialization. I'm quite partial to the Maneuver Master myself, but it would be criminal of me not to mention Master of Many Styles -> Crane Style, which works well with a magus.

Personally, I would forgo the Augment Summoning route with any Summoner other than a Master Summoner: it sounds like he's going to have his eidolon out more often than not, yes? If so, that feat is going to lie unused a majority of the time. How about Extra Evolution for a substitute? You're trading a feat that improves your backup ability (the SLA summons) for one that improves your main ability (the eidolon).

Along those lines, I would definitely throw Extra Evolution in for Toughness at 19 - at that point in the game, I don't think Toughness is really worth it.

If I was building a melee summoner, I'd have Str as my primary attribute, since I'd be focusing on my melee prowess rather than my spells (which I'd use primarily for buffing and utility, rather than battlefield control). Might be a bit different in this case, though, given that he's the only arcane caster in the group.

Having both the summoner and the eidolon take Precise Strike gives them each an extra 1d6 precision damage when flanking. Pretty nice.

Just a few thoughts; hope they're helpful.

If I'm not mistaken though, you would have to step before or after the attacks, not during or in between.

That was my question. Given you can step in the midst of other full attacks (with natural weapons, with a magus' spellstrike/spell combat, etc), I don't see anything to suggest that you couldn't. But I can see that not being a universal interpretation.

Ah, gotcha. That explains why I wasn't seeing them. ;)

Not to keep hounding you, but I'm curious about Whirlwind Attack. Could you take a 5' step with it? Being able to do so, combined with a reach weapon, has the potential to notably increase the number of attacks you could make in a given round.

Twigs wrote:

Holy balls the Lore Warden is fantastic. Good lord.

It's not the greatest, but it is really good.

I have a trick fighter who uses the archetype to pretty good effect.

Thanks for posting this. I've been working on a Summoner//Lore Warden gestalt for an upcoming game, and your build gave me some much needed food for thought for things to do on the fighter side.

Small question: what traits did you take (if any)? I don't see any listed.

Grenadier archetype gets the Precise Bombs discovery at level 2 for free, just FYI.

I'm wondering if the Int req for the improved feats was overlooked when creating that class feature. The tables only list Combat Expertise as the prerequisite for them; Int is only in the text.

Obviously, I'd been wondering that too. Although I admit to not having caught that the Lore Warden gives up Bravery 1, not Bravery outright (thanks for that, kinevon): that makes it seem more likely to me that there isn't an error here.

Wishful thinking, I guess, as I'd love to avoid the Int requirement for an upcoming game of mine. :P

Thanks, kinevon. Just seems a bit counter-intuitive to me, is all: for a class with as many feats to burn as the fighter, a single bonus feat without additional advantage just doesn't seem that exciting to me. Especially considering that you're giving up a scaling bonus to saves, circumstantial though it may be.

True about being able to avoid the Improved feats via a reach weapon, though.

I might just got Maneuver Master monk instead.

Hiya All.

I've been looking into the Lore Warden archetype. At second level, you get Combat Expertise for free, "even if you don't qualify for it," but I've been wondering - since an Int of 13 is still listed as a requirement for all the Improved feats, what good is it to be able to receive the feat even if you don't qualify for it? Would it be fair to say that the intent is to have you subsequently qualify for Improved feats even if you have a lower Int?

I'm not trying to game the system, this just seemed like a reasonable assumption to me. Thanks for your help and your thoughts.

I'll throw in another vote for the witch. Healing Hex makes sense; beyond that, you can either focus on debuffs (Evil Eye, Cackle, Misfortune) or save-or-sucks (Sleep). As far as patrons - picking up haste via Agility or Time would be a decent bet. In general, I have a hard time with the witch's patrons.

Edit: Ah, I see you're going another route. I suppose I'd go with bard out of the three options you listed.

I played in a short-lived Carrion Crown game, and I really enjoyed what I did see. At least at the beginning, there were a lot of opportunities for good RP-ing, and I just found the overall tone enjoyable.

Sorry to keep it brief, but I'd say Carrion Crown is definitely worth looking into.

But otherwise, summoning more monsters is usually the way to go. What Superior Summons does is increase your output by 50% (average 3 instead of 4) /and/ relieve you of the embarrassing possibility of rolling a 1 on your d3. It's really a powerful feat, so it makes perfect sense that it's third in a feat chain.

Doug M.

This is where one of the perhaps-not-immediately-obvious advantages of the Master Summoner lies: because he gets Augment Summoning for free, without needing to take Spell Focus (Conjuration), Superior Summons is accessible at level 3 without a feat tax. Pretty awesome.

This actually reminds me of something I've been wondering about the wording of Superior Summoning - do you get the extra creature if you roll a "1" on your d3? You aren't actually getting multiple creatures to add 1 to.

I think it should grant the extra creature, btw. I'm just not sure that it's very clear.

The RAW isn't very clear, but I think the RAI is - that you always get that +1. If for no other reason than it would be a cruel case of adding insult to injury. :)

Add one more vote for using the lower version of SM.

Personally, I'd start with a 16 in Str (before racial modifier), and bump Con up to 14. Looks pretty good otherwise, though.

Alright, here's an idea I had:

hexcrafter staff magus/ monk of many styles 2.

I would level it like thus:
Magus
Magus
Monk (crane style/ crane wing)
Magus
Magus
Magus
Monk (Kirin Style/ Kirin Strike)
Magus

Feats of interest: Hex strike, Monastic legacy

Basically put you'll use Hex strike to put evil eye on your enemies while spell striking. The staff is primarily for the AC since you'll be using up swift action on hex strike you'll avoid arcane strike.

Interesting. Hex Strike is definitely one of those feats that begs to be used. My only concern is that both Kirin Strike and Hex Strike require swift actions, although I assume you're just utilizing Kirin Strike when it's available, and otherwise leaning on Hex Strike.

Don't get any that are cackle-based, you lack the hexes/feats to support that, and most rounds you'll either have no move action cause you're using spell combat, or you'll need it to move into position so you can spell combat next turn. Stick to ones that stand up on their own as very good. Slumber, Flight, and Prehensile Hair would be the top ones for me. Later on, Ice Tomb and maybe Retribution (depends on how harshly your DM interprets Ice Tomb, it's really poorly written).

Slumber is the only offensive regular hex worth taking for you, Misfortune and Evil Eye both rely too much on cackle. Major hexes, you get two good choices for offense, at least. Grand Hexes...by RAW you'll never ever be able to get. ;)

Yeah, my concern had primarily been in terms of the action economy between full attacking and Cackle-ing (and the hexes that lean on it). Slumber would probably be the best bet for my line of thinking: it gives me some nice flexibility to be able to volley slumbers or to go melee, depending on the circumstances.

Hi All. A quick search didn't turn up any consolidated information on this topic, so I thought I'd start a new thread.

Does anyone have any suggestions for hexes for a Hexcrafter, particularly of the offensive variety (as opposed to for utility)? I like the archetype's ability to add longevity to the class, but I still haven't fully wrapped my head around how a offensive-minded Hexcrafter would be built, and how they would play out in combat. Any input would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

Dipping monk could get you access to Dragon Style - useful for both the Strength bonus to damage (which can be applied to claws via Feral Combat Training) and the ability to charge pretty much anywhere (especially useful if you go quadruped -> pounce). The Master of Many Styles could get you your style feats faster, and the possibility of netting one of the normally-higher style feats (such as Snake Fang) at a much earlier level. The Maneuver Master could give you a free combat maneuver during a full attack (great with pounce).

All of that could be had with a one or two level dip - worth it for a melee summoner, IMHO.

Synthesist.
Changlings have claws.
Tengu have a bite attack.

Unfortunately, a concept like this seems pretty restricted for as formal a context as PFS.

Firstly, the most suitable monk archetype for this idea, the Monk of the Empty Hand, doesn't stack with Drunken Master. Personally, I think Monk of the Empty Hand would be the way to go; but that might be an unacceptable solution for you.

Sohei can enhance any weapon he wields with Ki and Flurry with any weapon he has weapon training, but unfortunately "improvised weapons" is not a weapon group listed for him to choose for weapon training. In a home game, that could be easily adjusted, but not for PFS.

In short: if playing this PC in PFS is a must, I'd vote for Monk of the Empty Hand. Improvised Weapon Mastery + Ki Weapons would help in the damage department (though you admittedly won't be a damage stud).

Thanks James! That's the kind of summary of the situation I was hoping to get.

Whew. And here I thought I was asking for a simple confirmation.

I'm with Selgard in terms of how I envision this. He kicks with one foot, shifts his weight, and then kicks to the other. Deviating from the sheer RAW mechanics of it for a moment, it perhaps makes even more sense for my PC in particular, since he has some levels in monk.

Also, in my opinion, the fact that you can 5' step in between any natural attacks supports the idea that you can kick with both legs during a full-round action without jeopardizing your ability to stand stably.

As an aside: I don't know if I've ever seen a thread around here reach, say, 30+ posts without there being an argument involved.