So I'm working on a character who uses the Quarterstaff and I'm following http://tenletter.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/pathfinder-quarterstaff-master/ build.
I'm trying to figure out the archetypes.
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks. This ability replaces flurry of blows.
I'm having a little trouble figuring out exactly what this means.
Does it mean that I always get to do an attack and maneuver check when I'm using a full attack?
No, you get to do maneuver checks instead of attacks.
Instead of flurry-of-blows you get to do the same number of attacks, but as maneuvers instead.
Instead of flurry-of-blows you get to do the same number of attacks, but as maneuvers instead.
Well, I know that's not right. You can already use maneuvers instead of attacks with a flurry-of-blows.
Not all maneuvers.
Okay but with a Flurry-of-blows you can still attack and use a maneuver.
What about FLURRY OF MANEUVERS stops you from making a normal attack?
Yes, whenever making a full attack action, you can always throw in a free combat maneuver -- even if the full attack action is just done with regular attacks.
In addition, the regular attacks don't suffer the penalties; only combat maneuvers do.
So a level 1 maneuver master could take a full attack action to make a trip attack at -2 and hit with her quarterstaff at her normal attack bonus, or make two trip attacks (both at -2).
If you were to post a specific level with attack bonuses, people would be happy to give you numbers on specific examples.
Heya Karlgamer
It is simple: when you use a full round attack, then in addition to the normal attacks of the full round attack you get to make one maneuver (this may also be a maneuver that cannot be usually done in a flurry, for example a grapple). Note that the bonus maneuver (and all maneuvers done as part of your full round attack actions such as disarms and trips) take a -2 penalty.
However, if you use your full round attacks to do actual attacks, you do not take a penalty - only the one bonus maneuver that you get is penalized.
At 8th level you get to do two bonus maneuvers. But any maneuver you perform during your full-round take a -5 penalty. Note that you don't HAVE to do two bonus maneuvers, you can chose to do only 1 bonus maneuver (and then suffer only a -2 penalty).
At 15th level you could do up to three bonus maneuvers. All maneuvers suffer a -10 penalty. (Or you could still only do 1 bonus manuever at -2, or 2 bonus maneuvers at -5).
Yes, whenever making a full attack action, you can always throw in a free combat maneuver -- even if the full attack action is just done with regular attacks.
In addition, the regular attacks don't suffer the penalties; only combat maneuvers do.
So a level 1 maneuver master could take a full attack action to make a trip attack at -2 and hit with her quarterstaff at her normal attack bonus, or make two trip attacks (both at -2).
If you were to post a specific level with attack bonuses, people would be happy to give you numbers on specific examples.
No. That clears things up. I thought I was really really reading it wrong after I starting getting responses.
I should mention that my PFS character is a maneuver master 4 / ninja 1. The character has high Dexterity and an agile amulet of mighty fists - so she uses Two-Weapon Fighting and specializes in disarm and tripping. Often enemies that are disarmed don't threaten anymore, thus opening them up for any maneuver. (Typically I trip, disarm, spit-in-the-eye (dirty trick).)
Since my character two-weapon fights, at level 1 she has 3(!) attempts to do a disarm (or trip if you were to build that way). That is a pretty significant amount. Now that she's reached level 5, I'm starting to add levels of ninja to expand ki options and gain sneak attack to supplement the damage.
Well, I've been looking for a way of making a viable quarterstaff master for a while.
At first I was going to use Sap Master but then I found this build and it looked funner.
I don't know. I really wish the quarterstaff had more options. It's suppose to be one of the Best Melee weapons in RL and yet it seems to get the shaft(pun intended.)
Ooh, I recognise that build :) I also think that the quarterstaff needs more love. Then again, I also think that the monk should be proficient with the long spear.
I plan to use the build for a Lantern Lodge PFS character in the near future. However, I've been fiddling around with idea of 5 levels of LW instead of 4. If you get a chance, let me know how the build functions.
- Jerall
Not all maneuvers.Okay but with a Flurry-of-blows you can still attack and use a maneuver.
Not a grapple you cannot, and that is seriously powerful because at first level you can in theory grapple and pin in one action.
What about FLURRY OF MANEUVERS stops you from making a normal attack?
The fact that it says it only applies to maneuvers, so you can either make a normal iterative full attack with blows, or else use flurry of maneuvers that specifically only lets you do maneuvers, not attacks.
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I think there is still some confusion as to whether a "flurry of maneuvers" lets you take regular damaging attacks with an extra maneuver(s) thrown in (taking the mentioned penalties), OR if when you use "flurry of maneuvers" you ONLY do combat maneuvers. (and take the listed penalties).
I was under the impression that it worked as described in the first scenario, (damaging attacks with a maneuver thrown in somewhere with a -2 penalty) .
That is correct Veldebrand, Dabbler has read the ability wrong.
Quote:
Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex)
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the Classes bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
This ability replaces flurry of blows.
Not a grapple you cannot, and that is seriously powerful because at first level you can in theory grapple and pin in one action.Not all maneuvers.Okay but with a Flurry-of-blows you can still attack and use a maneuver.
I don't see how. Since a grapple maneuver cannot be made as part of a full-attack action, there's no way to get two grapples in the same round using flurry of maneuvers. Your "extra maneuver" can be a grapple, but your normal attack cannot be.
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I don't see how. Since a grapple maneuver cannot be made as part of a full-attack action, there's no way to get two grapples in the same round using flurry of maneuvers. Your "extra maneuver" can be a grapple, but your normal attack cannot be.Not a grapple you cannot, and that is seriously powerful because at first level you can in theory grapple and pin in one action.Not all maneuvers.Okay but with a Flurry-of-blows you can still attack and use a maneuver.
It's not impossible. A synthesist with the grab evolution on his bite could flurry of manoeuvres after biting to pin.
That is correct Veldebrand, Dabbler has read the ability wrong.
Quote:
Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex)
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the Classes bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
This ability replaces flurry of blows.
I'm sorry, but nothing there says that you are making regular damaging attacks with the maneuvers. It just says you are getting maneuvers, even if you wouldn't normally get them as part of an attack action, using the flurry-of-blows mechanics of BAB = monk level-2. It also says that you are NOT getting flurry-of-blows.
So maneuvers, not blows.
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I'm sorry, but nothing there says that you are making regular damaging attacks with the maneuvers.
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action
If it didn't allow everything that's normally part of a full-attack, it wouldn't be telling you that you can only do this during a full-attack.
I'm sorry, but nothing there says that you are making regular damaging attacks with the maneuvers.At 1st level, as part of a full-attack actionIf it didn't allow everything that's normally part of a full-attack, it wouldn't be telling you that you can only do this during a full-attack.
But the flurry only applies to maneuvers, Jiggy. It's like flurry-of-blows only applies to monk weapons, but is a full attack action. You can't attack with flurry-of-blows with a non-monk weapon like a longsword as a full attack action, you either make a normal full attack action with the longsword or you make a flurry-of-blows without it.
In the same way, flurry-of-maneuvers only lets you use maneuvers, If you want to land blows, it can still be a full attack action, but you have to use your normal BAB and iterative attacks if you mix in blows with maneuvers.
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If it didn't allow everything that's normally part of a full-attack, it wouldn't be telling you that you can only do this during a full-attack.
This also opens up TWF with Flurry of Maneuvers.
A level 1 monk with 10 strength and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat could do the following:
Primary Unarmed strike -2 (BAB0, -2 TWF)
Off-hand Unarmed strike -2 (BAB0, -2 TWF)
Bonus Grapple -1 (full BAB, -2 CM penalty)
At level three, he could:
Primary Unarmed Strike +0 (BAB2, -2 TWF)
Off-hand Trip -1 (full BAB, -2 CM, -2 TWF)
Bonus Grapple +1 (full BAB, -2 CM)
Correct?
But the flurry only applies to maneuvers, Jiggy.
It doesn't say so.
Flurry of Blows specifies that you must use a monk weapon.
Flurry of Maneuvers doesn't specify that you must use maneuvers, only that you get a bonus maneuver with your full attack.
You can punch a guy during your full attack.
FoM adds a bonus CM to that.
You'll note that FoM only gives you full BAB for the bonus maneuvers, not any maneuvers you substitute for the rest of your attacks.
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But the flurry only applies to maneuvers, Jiggy.
According to what? The text says you make a full-attack and get an extra maneuver. It never says it "only applies to maneuvers" or gives any other restriction on when you can use it. You invented that yourself. There is no text stating that the full-attack involved functions any differently than normal except that you get to make an extra maneuver.
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If it didn't allow everything that's normally part of a full-attack, it wouldn't be telling you that you can only do this during a full-attack.This also opens up TWF with Flurry of Maneuvers.
A level 1 monk with 10 strength and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat could do the following:
Primary Unarmed strike -2 (BAB0, -2 TWF)
Off-hand Unarmed strike -2 (BAB0, -2 TWF)
Bonus Grapple -1 (full BAB, -2 CM penalty)At level three, he could:
Primary Unarmed Strike +0 (BAB2, -2 TWF)
Off-hand Trip -1 (full BAB, -2 CM, -2 TWF)
Bonus Grapple +1 (full BAB, -2 CM)Correct?
Your numbers are a tad off: remember that any penalties to your attacks also applies by default to combat maneuvers. Thus, if you TWF in a FoM, your ordinary attacks are at the usual -2 (from TWF) but any maneuver(s) are at a total of -4 (-2 from TWF and -2 from FoM).
For clarity, since their seems to be some confusion on the subject.
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver…
Emphasis mine. This means that when a maneuver master uses a full attack action they can use an additional combat maneuver, it does not state that you have to be attacking with your regular attacks or using other maneuvers so that is your choice. Either way you still get the additional combat maneuver(s) as dictated be the flurry of maneuvers.
You cannot however, use one of the bonus maneuvers as a regular attacks. The ability specifically states you gain additional combat maneuvers, and normal attacks are not combat maneuvers.
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Your numbers are a tad off: remember that any penalties to your attacks also applies by default to combat maneuvers.
I thought that was covered. The TWF penalties only apply to the TWF attacks, the bonus maneuver will not take the penalty.
In the second example, that off-hand trip does take both the TWF penalty (-2) and the CM penalty from FoM (-2) it's only offset by the full-BAB granted from the Maneuver Training ability at 3rd level.
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For clarity, since their seems to be some confusion on the subject.
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver…Emphasis mine. This means that when a maneuver master uses a full attack action they can use an additional combat maneuver, it does not state that you have to be attacking with your regular attacks or using other maneuvers so that is your choice. Either way you still get the additional combat maneuver(s) as dictated be the flurry of maneuvers.
You cannot however, use one of the bonus maneuvers as a regular attacks. The ability specifically states you gain additional combat maneuvers, and normal attacks are not combat maneuvers.
Ah, Ravel has the right of it!
You can attack as a full attack, and gain extra maneuvers rather than extra attacks! Sorry, I was reading the heading of the ability too literally.
Your numbers are a tad off: remember that any penalties to your attacks also applies by default to combat maneuvers. Thus, if you TWF in a FoM, your ordinary attacks are at the usual -2 (from TWF) but any maneuver(s) are at a total of -4 (-2 from TWF and -2 from FoM).If it didn't allow everything that's normally part of a full-attack, it wouldn't be telling you that you can only do this during a full-attack.This also opens up TWF with Flurry of Maneuvers.
A level 1 monk with 10 strength and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat could do the following:
Primary Unarmed strike -2 (BAB0, -2 TWF)
Off-hand Unarmed strike -2 (BAB0, -2 TWF)
Bonus Grapple -1 (full BAB, -2 CM penalty)At level three, he could:
Primary Unarmed Strike +0 (BAB2, -2 TWF)
Off-hand Trip -1 (full BAB, -2 CM, -2 TWF)
Bonus Grapple +1 (full BAB, -2 CM)Correct?
I recently was thinking about combining TWF and Flurry of Maneuvers, and I also came to the same conclusion as Jiggy. Given that combat maneuvers are modified by the same things that modify attacks, it follows that the TWF penalty would apply to FoM as well.
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I recently was thinking about combining TWF and Flurry of Maneuvers, and I also came to the same conclusion as Jiggy. Given that combat maneuvers are modified by the same things that modify attacks, it follows that the TWF penalty would apply to FoM as well.
Actually, I think I may have been wrong. Check out the rules for TWFing:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Note that the penalties are not blanketed - they're specific to the hands/weapons making these attacks.
I could see a case being made (which I think Grick was saying upthread a bit) that the extra maneuver granted by FoM is neither a primary-hand attack nor an off-hand attack, and is therefore subject to neither penalty.
I'm feel torn on this one. I'll have to mull it over a bit.
The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.
So it would seem that you get a blanket -2 to hit regardless of how you perform the maneuver, just as a core monk gets monk level -2 as his attack bonus when making a flurry of blows.
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The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.So it would seem that you get a blanket -2 to hit regardless of how you perform the maneuver, just as a core monk gets monk level -2 as his attack bonus when making a flurry of blows.
Correct.
The bonus maneuver gets increased BAB.
All maneuvers in the flurry (bonus maneuver plus any maneuvers you replace your attacks with via normal maneuver rules) will take the -2 penalty.
I don't think I would impose the TWF penalty on the bonus maneuver, for the same reason that we don't impose the penalty on an AoO.
I don't think I would impose the TWF penalty on the bonus maneuver, for the same reason that we don't impose the penalty on an AoO.
Even though it specifically states that you do, and would apply if you were TWFing as part of a full attack?
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I don't think I would impose the TWF penalty on the bonus maneuver, for the same reason that we don't impose the penalty on an AoO.Even though it specifically states that you do,
I checked both the TWF rules and the AoO rules, and saw nothing implying (let alone "specifically stating") that TWF penalties carry over to AoO's. Did you find something somewhere else? Could you cite it please?
TWF penalties do not apply to AOO, however in this case TWF would apply in my view as part of the Manoeuvres because they are part of the same attack action.
That said, i dont think you can make normal punches and kicks as part of flurry of manoeuvres (not attempting to argue it simplt stating my opinion.)
in this case TWF would apply in my view as part of the Manoeuvres because they are part of the same attack action.
Nitpick: Full-attack action, not attack action. Full-attack is a full round action, not a standard.
If you're applying TWF penalties to the bonus maneuver, which hand do you use?
Say a monk is using a Nine Ring Broadsword in his primary hand, and making unarmed strikes (kick) as his off-hand. For his bonus maneuver he trips someone with a whip. Is that a primary hand? Off-hand? Or is it neither? What if instead he grapples?
That said, i dont think you can make normal punches and kicks as part of flurry of manoeuvres (not attempting to argue it simplt stating my opinion.)
I know you're not arguing, but can you state why you feel that way? Is it because the flavor of the Maneuver Master leads to performing maneuvers more than damage-dealing? Or does something in the rules lead you to believe the MM's full-attack action must be entirely combat maneuvers? If the intent was for the entire flurry to consist of combat maneuvers, doesn't it kind of not make sense that the normal attack CMs don't get the full BAB that the bonus CMs do?
I checked both the TWF rules and the AoO rules, and saw nothing implying (let alone "specifically stating") that TWF penalties carry over to AoO's. Did you find something somewhere else? Could you cite it please?I don't think I would impose the TWF penalty on the bonus maneuver, for the same reason that we don't impose the penalty on an AoO.Even though it specifically states that you do,
I was talking about the bonus maneuver, not AoOs, they are totally different things, and here it says:
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks. This ability replaces flurry of blows.
This is the penalty I was referring to. It is in effect the TWF penalty applied as per flurry of blows.
This is the penalty I was referring to.
Well, it's not the penalty all the rest of us were referring to -- hence the confusion.
We're talking about using FoM and TWF at the same time, and the question is whether to apply the TWF penalty to the bonus maneuver. We've already established that you apply the CM penalty to it; the question is whether the TWF penalty will apply as well.
Here's another reason to say "no" -- is the bonus maneuver a main-hand attack or an off-hand attack? This matters because unless you have the TWF feat, you have to apply different penalties to main-hand and off-hand attacks. If that's not a question that we can reasonably answer, then probably the correct answer is that the bonus maneuver isn't part of the TWF sequence and doesn't take the penalty.
in this case TWF would apply in my view as part of the Manoeuvres because they are part of the same attack action.Nitpick: Full-attack action, not attack action. Full-attack is a full round action, not a standard.
If you're applying TWF penalties to the bonus maneuver, which hand do you use?
Say a monk is using a Nine Ring Broadsword in his primary hand, and making unarmed strikes (kick) as his off-hand. For his bonus maneuver he trips someone with a whip. Is that a primary hand? Off-hand? Or is it neither? What if instead he grapples?
That said, i dont think you can make normal punches and kicks as part of flurry of manoeuvres (not attempting to argue it simplt stating my opinion.)I know you're not arguing, but can you state why you feel that way? Is it because the flavor of the Maneuver Master leads to performing maneuvers more than damage-dealing? Or does something in the rules lead you to believe the MM's full-attack action must be entirely combat maneuvers? If the intent was for the entire flurry to consist of combat maneuvers, doesn't it kind of not make sense that the normal attack CMs don't get the full BAB that the bonus CMs do?
On tablet, so bear with me. First i think ill re think the twf stuff. Secondly the only connection to normal attacks is that doing the extra maneuvers is considered part of the full attack action. But other than that makes no mention of normal strikes. ( as opposed to normal flurry which makes the interchangabiity of specific combat maneuvers with strikes explicit)
Otberwise it needs to be explained clearer.
yes looks right