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Been reading about "Precious Materials" for weapon and armor. Some of them offer multiple grades (low, standard, high). Increasing the grade of a material does two things: It increases the Hardness and BT (good for shields, useless for everything else ) and it allows you to put higher level runes on the item (useless for shields); but it also increases the cost exponentially.
So for a weapon or armor (not a shield), the main benefit is being able to put better runes on it, right? Does this mean that regular steel or wooden weapons and armor can't have runes higher than 8th level? Or does this rune restriction only apply to equipment made of special materials? In the latter case, why in the hell!? Precious materials are super overpriced for what they provide already (level 11-12 for a bit less bulk) and with the price scaling, they become extremely unattractive compared to just basic materials.
On shields, they're worse than equivalent sturdy shields regardless of material.
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I think the major reason for the rune restriction is to explain why anyone would make a magic weapon that isn't made of a precious material: The cost is high enough that you aren't going to use a precious material for everything regardless of your level.
In PF1, every weapon past level 7 or so should really be made from Cold Iron or Silversheen as by that point the 'extra costs' involved are becoming negligible, there isn't any real non-cost downside to them (unlike Alchemical Silver), and the benefits can be huge when they do come into play.
In PF2, low grade weapons are expensive but still within reach of low level characters, while the higher grades are still costly enough to justify not using the precious materials without a good reason...
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Taja's right.
The rune rules only apply to special materials and basically exists only to try to keep the decision to use a special material weapon as a choice investment rather than cheap power against certain enemies.
And yeah, special material shields generally aren't great, barring a few exceptions.
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Looking at the prices for some of these special materials I think they may go from a "automatic have" in PF1 to a huge no-no at higher levels. A high grade Cold Iron weapon is over 9000 GP. A +3 greater striking weapon is 10,000 and it's a decision you'll have to make at level 16. It doesn't sound like such a good deal in that context... +3 item bonus on attack rolls and triple dice versus +20 damage per hit on Balors.
I agree that if you want them to stay special at higher levels they should scale, but at their current pricing they are very unattractive for what they end up doing.
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The issue I had with the grades of special materials is that, even though the book describes the material as being a larger part of the weapon or armor's make-up, becoming more pure rather rather than plating or an alloy, it doesn't actually do anything differently. Adamantine doesn't cut through stuff more easily, mithril weapons don't become lighter or less bulky, etc.
This is a good point. The current price feels bad because you end up paying a lot just to stay the same as you were before. A High-Grade Silver weapon doesn't feel that impressive anymore. It just has the obligatory runes you need at high level.
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Also, the 15% cost to transfer runes discourage you from having a special material weapon as you'll need to transfer your runes every now and then while you'll upgrade the material grade.
I agree that, right now, special material weapons is only a thing for two-weapon fighters thanks to Doubling Rings.
They work super well in APs, because you conveniently find them just before facing an enemy that is weak to them. :)
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They work super well in APs, because you conveniently find them just before facing an enemy that is weak to them. :)
Usually. Recently had the misfortune of fighting a golem without having any Adamantine weapons, and -10 off everyone's damage rolls was really painful.
Archers seem to be the most impacted characters by the Precious Material rules, since 10 arrows/bolts/bullets costs the same as a single weapon. Using 'precious ammo' against a foe is basically throwing treasure at them...
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It's not necessarily an 'a vs b' option: When choosing between a 9,000g Cold Iron weapon or a 10,000g magic weapon, you are missing:Looking at the prices for some of these special materials I think they may go from a "automatic have" in PF1 to a huge no-no at higher levels. A high grade Cold Iron weapon is over 9000 GP. A +3 greater striking weapon is 10,000 and it's a decision you'll have to make at level 16. It doesn't sound like such a good deal in that context... +3 item bonus on attack rolls and triple dice versus +20 damage per hit on Balors.
I agree that if you want them to stay special at higher levels they should scale, but at their current pricing they are very unattractive for what they end up doing.
- +2 Greater Striking precious (standard grade) weapon for only 3,400g (decent and cheap, but not up gradable)
- +2 striking precious (high grade) weapon for 10,000g (ready to be upgraded when you have the cash)
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They work super well in APs, because you conveniently find them just before facing an enemy that is weak to them. :)Usually. Recently had the misfortune of fighting a golem without having any Adamantine weapons, and -10 off everyone's damage rolls was really painful.
Archers seem to be the most impacted characters by the Precious Material rules, since 10 arrows/bolts/bullets costs the same as a single weapon. Using 'precious ammo' against a foe is basically throwing treasure at them...
Archers are the most impacted characters period. As a Ranged Ranger I feel the pain. A lot of the best Runes are melee only, magical ammunition is unfairly expensive, and there is only a single Specific Magic Bow in the entire game.
On top of that, the arbitrary DEX caps to AC, and the lack of any real penalty for wearing Armor, and DEX is simply not as good a stat in this game as it is in others.
That's another topic though.
DEX is simply not as good a stat in this game as it is in others.That's for sure.
On the other hand, I consider this a feature, not a bug - Dex was given way WAY too many bennies in 5th edition!
PS. Consider that in the GMG, it's apparent Paizo thinks Dexterity is still an overpowered ability, given their variant (which smushes Strength and Constitution together, while splitting Dexterity into two abilities: Agility and Dexterity) that's specifically meant to, and I quote, create six ability scores much closer in balance with each other.
I don't think we can draw many conclusions as cha is will saves, unarmed attacks use the better of dex and str for to hits, finesse attacks auto get dex to damage, wis isn't a save stat...
They did a LOT of tinkering to get a "roughly equivalent value" for stats and I don't think it came out too even IMO. Str got supersized [hit, damage, save, hp, bulk, armor requirement] while wis only has skills and initiative... and agility is just ac/saves. It just swapped the best stat to str...
1) "it's apparent Paizo thinks Dexterity is still an overpowered ability"
IMO, it's more that a few stat were underperforming. That and it's not as easy a comparison as they are adding, replacing and changing things around. In some ways, dex got a lot better in some ways as you can use it to hit with ANY unarmed attack and all finesse attacks deal dex damage: you can use a finesse weapon in ranged/melee with all dex for hit and damage with any class which is a big plus.
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They work super well in APs, because you conveniently find them just before facing an enemy that is weak to them. :)Usually. Recently had the misfortune of fighting a golem without having any Adamantine weapons, and -10 off everyone's damage rolls was really painful.
Archers seem to be the most impacted characters by the Precious Material rules, since 10 arrows/bolts/bullets costs the same as a single weapon. Using 'precious ammo' against a foe is basically throwing treasure at them...
Archers are the most impacted characters period. As a Ranged Ranger I feel the pain. A lot of the best Runes are melee only, magical ammunition is unfairly expensive, and there is only a single Specific Magic Bow in the entire game.
On top of that, the arbitrary DEX caps to AC, and the lack of any real penalty for wearing Armor, and DEX is simply not as good a stat in this game as it is in others.
That's another topic though.
Doesn't precious material ammo become very cheap at higher level? You don't need to buy expensive arrows with a bow with runes. It seems the archer could buy a bunch of low grade cold iron and silver weapons at higher level to use with his bow.
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Doesn't precious material ammo become very cheap at higher level? You don't need to buy expensive arrows with a bow with runes. It seems the archer could buy a bunch of low grade cold iron and silver weapons at higher level to use with his bow.I've just assumed your +2 rune won't function on a bow shooting low-grade ammunition. You'd need standard-grade ammo for a +2 rune.
Anything else would be stupid (short-circuiting the entire economy model for special materials)...
Does it say that? I always thought the trade off was that a player had to constantly purchase special material arrows because they were lost when fired. It would be pretty insane to make a player pay the cost of a +3 major striking bow for 10 pieces of ammunition he was going to fire off.
Arrows don't have runes, so you should be able to buy them in bunches. I figured that was part of the reason archers get half strength and the like on bows. They are the best martial for taking advantage of special materials other than the monk.
It's still not perfectly cheap, but I see no reason to believe it is not similar to PF1 where an archer didn't have to pay a huge mark up for regular special material arrows even with a highly magical bow.
Is there some kind of ruling on this or is this just a general belief? I wasn't planning on making players pay a huge amount of money for arrows. An archer gets to spend very little money on regular arrows because they aren't magical. Why would he need some super high grade arrow if he didn't need higher grade regular arrows to fire out of his bow?
I wasn't planning on making players pay a huge amount of money for arrows. An archer gets to spend very little money on regular arrows because they aren't magical. Why would he need some super high grade arrow if he didn't need higher grade regular arrows to fire out of his bow?Because weapon users don't get to enjoy +3 runes AND monster weaknesses at the same time unless they pay up for high-grade weapons?
Why should cold iron ammunition be exorbitantly expensive for a level 5 hero (4 gp per arrow to enjoy maybe cold iron 5 weaknesses), but trivially cheap for a level 15 hero (still 4 gp per arrow to enjoy maybe cold iron 15 weaknesses)? That would make no sense.
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The alternative would be to ask the player to purchase a high-grade cold iron bow (a one time purchase), and then rule that regular ammunition shot from this bow still triggers the monster weakness.
Anything else I would consider a strange hole in the rules' logic. I would be surprised if it hadn't been caught and discussed before. I would be equally surprised if the devs missed it.
Hmm. Until I see a hard ruling, I'm going to let my archer players pay for low-grade cold iron arrows since they are disposable. So far it hasn't been an issue, since no one in my group is purchasing them for those rare times they fight a resistant creature. I find it strange myself as I would, but they don't seem to care.
4500 gold for 10 disposable arrows seems off to me. Would have been easier if they had made increasingly powerful creatures only harmed by higher grade materials.
It seems to me by RAW arrows don't have runes on them, thus don't need high grade to put anything on them. I really haven't seen an indication that a player has to purchase high grade precious material arrows. It doesn't say you can't fire a low grade cold iron arrow out of a bow and it doesn't say creatures require a high grade cold iron weapon to trigger their resistances.
Does someone have an official ruling on this?
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Taja's right.
The rune rules only apply to special materials and basically exists only to try to keep the decision to use a special material weapon as a choice investment rather than cheap power against certain enemies.
And yeah, special material shields generally aren't great, barring a few exceptions.
I would go so far as to state that unless you know you're going to be consistently fighting a kind of monster with a weakness to the material, or a resistant without the material they should be avoided. Even the occasional encounter it isn't worth it. It's only worthwhile when you can say "I know every day I'm going to fight something vulnerable to silver".
On top of that, the arbitrary DEX caps to AC, and the lack of any real penalty for wearing Armor, and DEX is simply not as good a stat in this game as it is in others.
That's another topic though.
Not to derail the thread, but that is very much intentional on the part of dex being made worse because it was the "god stat" in PF1.
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All ammunition is destroyed on use, this is covered by the first errata.
Under the Ammunition heading, add the sentence “Using ammunition destroys it.”
Also there is nothing in the crb that suggests low, standard or high grade normal items exist; or that there are requirements for high grade special ammunition with bow that has higher level runes in it.
As for special material armours, there are foes that damage armour directly. My barbarian had a special annis hag from age of ashes deal with this as she tore through his breastplate :)
It would be interesting to see if the intent is to allow for players to craft specific magic items out of different materials too.
Does this mean that regular steel or wooden weapons and armor can't have runes higher than 8th level? Or does this rune restriction only apply to equipment made of special materials? In the latter case, why in the hell!?
I didn't see this mentioned, but higher grades of steel do exist, they're just not given a material entry statblock.
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Does this mean that regular steel or wooden weapons and armor can't have runes higher than 8th level? Or does this rune restriction only apply to equipment made of special materials? In the latter case, why in the hell!?I didn't see this mentioned, but higher grades of steel do exist, they're just not given a material entry statblock.
And if I recall correctly, the cost for applying higher level potency runes on a weapon includes in it's cost having a weapon with higher grade steel.
Which would actual means you can't keep the same weapon the whole way through the game...because you would have to buy a new one with better steel to accept the better runes.
And if I recall correctly, the cost for applying higher level potency runes on a weapon includes in it's cost having a weapon with higher grade steel.Does this mean that regular steel or wooden weapons and armor can't have runes higher than 8th level? Or does this rune restriction only apply to equipment made of special materials? In the latter case, why in the hell!?I didn't see this mentioned, but higher grades of steel do exist, they're just not given a material entry statblock.
Yep.
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Does this mean that regular steel or wooden weapons and armor can't have runes higher than 8th level? Or does this rune restriction only apply to equipment made of special materials? In the latter case, why in the hell!?I didn't see this mentioned, but higher grades of steel do exist, they're just not given a material entry statblock.And if I recall correctly, the cost for applying higher level potency runes on a weapon includes in it's cost having a weapon with higher grade steel.
Which would actual means you can't keep the same weapon the whole way through the game...because you would have to buy a new one with better steel to accept the better runes.
Correct, though I imagine this will end up being the most ignored rule in the game: It's just kinda pointless mechanically (not to mention it is only found in the 'Crafting with Precious Materials' section for some reason).
Source
Core Rulebook pg. 578 1.1
Low-grade items can be used in the creation of magic items of up to 8th level, and they can hold runes of up to 8th level. Standard-grade items can be used to create magic items of up to 15th level and can hold runes of up to 15th level. High-grade items use the purest form of the precious material, and can be used to Craft magic items of any level holding any runes. Using purer forms of common materials is so relatively inexpensive that the Price is included in any magic item.
When you Craft an item that incorporates a precious material, your initial raw materials for the item must include that material; at least 10% of the investment must be of the material for low-grade, at least 25% for standard-grade, and all of it for high-grade. For instance, a low-grade silver object of 1 Bulk costs 20 gp. Of the 10 gp of raw materials you provide when you start to Craft the item, at least 1 gp must be silver. The raw materials you spend to complete the item don’t have to consist of the precious material, though the GM might rule otherwise in certain cases.
After creating an item with a precious material, you can use Craft to improve its grade, paying the Price difference and providing a sufficient amount of the precious material.
Technically speaking, this does limit your available magic weapons to either the weapons you actually find - or - the weapons of the appropriate grade that you can actually buy: The ability to transfer a +3 Potency rune off a Greatpick doesn't do you much good if you can't get your hands on a High Grade Shortsword. Of course, High-Grade non-precious material weapons aren't actually detailed anywhere, so that becomes a 'GM Call' as to whether or not they are available in any given settlement, which probably will lead to the aforementioned 'hand waiving'...
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...Does this mean that regular steel or wooden weapons and armor can't have runes higher than 8th level? Or does this rune restriction only apply to equipment made of special materials? In the latter case, why in the hell!?I didn't see this mentioned, but higher grades of steel do exist, they're just not given a material entry statblock.And if I recall correctly, the cost for applying higher level potency runes on a weapon includes in it's cost having a weapon with higher grade steel.
Which would actual means you can't keep the same weapon the whole way through the game...because you would have to buy a new one with better steel to accept the better runes.
Correct, though I imagine this will end up being the most ignored rule in the game: It's just kinda pointless mechanically (not to mention it is only found in the 'Crafting with Precious Materials' section for some reason).
Only an expert crafter can create a low-grade item, only a master can create a standard-grade item, and only a legendary crafter can create a high-grade item. In addition, to Craft with a precious material, your character level must be equal to or greater than that of the material.
Core Rulebook pg. 578 1.1Source
Low-grade items can be used in the creation of magic items of up to 8th level, and they can hold runes of up to 8th level. Standard-grade items can be used to create magic items of up to 15th level and can hold runes of up to 15th level. High-grade items use the purest form of the precious material, and can be used to Craft magic items of any level holding any runes. Using purer forms of common materials is so relatively inexpensive that the Price is included in any magic item.
When you Craft an item that incorporates a precious material, your initial raw materials for the item must include that
Honestly, all this is simply more reason to use automatic bonus progression type systems where the progression in damage and attack bonuses are part of the character and not the weapon.
I really hate this kind of systems PF2 is using more and more.
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-Respectful @Zapp
There is no such thing as Low/Standard/High-Grade Wood or Steel, it seems you're injecting assumptions that are applied to Special Materials on the common ones. Steel and Wood are so common that anything less than "High" quality would simply be recycled, refined, or turned into something other than Weapons and Armor such as spoons, nails, building timber, or fuel for a campfire. They never printed any such requirement for Runes to applied to normal materials, only special ones.
Anything lower than the highest quality for these would essentially just be "shoddy" materials, which IS supported with rules but nothing at all suggests that every Fighter will have to trade out their Longsword every 4-6 levels because the steel isn't good enough for their buddy to etch with Runes.
Feel free to cite some sources though because the fact that this interpretation is a thing at all has my head spinning confusedly.
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Using purer forms
of common materials is so relatively inexpensive that the
Price is included in any magic item.
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Using purer forms
of common materials is so relatively inexpensive that the
Price is included in any magic item.
This still doesn't say that low standard and high exist, it implies it but doesn't state it. It is more likely a thematic handwave given the location and subsection title. A "don't think about it".
And absolutely nothing says you need a higher level tier of arrow to benefit from a striking rune on a bow. RAW it can be argued that the arrows cannot have runes above a certain level on them, it has nothing to do with the bow having a rune on it though.
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They work super well in APs, because you conveniently find them just before facing an enemy that is weak to them. :)Usually. Recently had the misfortune of fighting a golem without having any Adamantine weapons, and -10 off everyone's damage rolls was really painful.
Archers seem to be the most impacted characters by the Precious Material rules, since 10 arrows/bolts/bullets costs the same as a single weapon. Using 'precious ammo' against a foe is basically throwing treasure at them...
I hadn't really absorbed that before now. The Precious Arrow feat from Eldritch Archer just moved up a step in my mental rating system.
All ammunition is destroyed on use, this is covered by the first errata.
Under the Ammunition heading, add the sentence “Using ammunition destroys it.”Also there is nothing in the crb that suggests low, standard or high grade normal items exist; or that there are requirements for high grade special ammunition with bow that has higher level runes in it.
As for special material armours, there are foes that damage armour directly. My barbarian had a special annis hag from age of ashes deal with this as she tore through his breastplate :)
It would be interesting to see if the intent is to allow for players to craft specific magic items out of different materials too.
Then there is the corrosive rune. A good reason to buy higher grade material armor. Found that out the hard when crit by a corrosive weapon.
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The rules ...Sorry but you're ignoring the elephant in the room.
How on earth can you think the designers intended cold iron arrows to be impossibly expensive (4 gp) at low level but trivially cheap (4 gp) at high level?
Every other weapon user is required to upgrade his weapon's material grade twice to keep enjoying state of the art runes on his attacks.
It's always been that way and doesn't seem to have changed in this edition. In PF1 it cost you 2000 gold to enchant a cold iron weapon, but cold iron arrows were like 2 gold for 20. Seems to be one of the few things that has stayed similar in this edition according to every rule I've read.
Not sure how closely you track ammo in your campaigns, archers always have the innate problem of running out of arrows. They run out of arrows faster at higher level as they fire even more, often missing against high AC creatures. If they run out of arrows, their weapon is useless.
Even the description of a low-grade material item sounds exactly like an arrow. Only part of it is cold iron.
As far as designer intent, they would have had to miss a lot of rules to have missed requiring ammunition to cost the same as a full precious material weapon due to the runes on the ranged weapon. I don't think they missed that many. I think they wanted archery/slings to be good at using precious material ammunition.
Same as holy water flasks are cheap and yet will do a lot of damage to groups of demons with good weakness as a splash attack. A group can buy a ton of holy water flasks and drop them over and over again on demons, so that even on a miss they're doing 10 or so damage per fiend.
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The rules ...Sorry but you're ignoring the elephant in the room.
How on earth can you think the designers intended cold iron arrows to be impossibly expensive (4 gp) at low level but trivially cheap (4 gp) at high level?
Every other weapon user is required to upgrade his weapon's material grade twice to keep enjoying state of the art runes on his attacks.
There’s also the elephant that Ammunition has to keep getting purchased and consumed, where as any martial can grab a low-grade dagger and stab the Balor while the Archer is arbitrarily stuck with finding High-Grade ammunition. I could see using higher purity with Magical Ammunition, but there’s nothing really suggesting ammunition is forced into the same situation because it’s being launched from a Bow.
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Precious Material Ammunition ends up depending on your build and weapon. For example, playing an X-bow Precision Ranger, I bought 100 bolts at the beginning of book 1 or 2 of AoA (our group started with Plaguestone and segwayed into AoA) and by the end of Book 2 I’ve used maybe just under 50 bolts? On a trip to town i grabbed 10 Cold Iron and 10 Silver Bolts just in case and have only used 3 Cold Iron.
I can easily see Bow users coming across issues if they spam the ammunition too much; but a couple of ranged abilities combine damage and only exploit weaknesses once. This means Bow users can either switch to X-bow for some encounters or mix Precious Ammo with Regular Ammo when they need to use it.