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I saw that there where many thread talking about the argument but none tried to thinker with causes for what I’ve seen.
What I’d like to do is a blueprint on how the tenets and causes of neutrality / balance could be like.
I tried as hard as possible to maintain the ways and wording Paizo uses to design their products. I post it here because I’d like some help to better this first “batch” especially on how the already existing feat would work with the material below.
So feel free to correct, disagree or express your opinions, I plan to upgrade the post with popular decision or ideas.
Also I still did not design any particular feat, so you are all free to propose some of your invention.
[also correct my English if something is incomprehensible]

TENETS OF BALANCE / NEUTRALITY
The tenets and causes of balance follow the rules provided in the Core Rulebook.
Neutral characters in general can range from firm supporter of balance restoring it whenever is needed and by any means necessary to placid hermit that preach about neutrality.
This means they can be extremely disruptive to a typical game and should be accessible player character options only in appropriate adventures or campaigns where the group collectively decides to embrace them.
While the feats and actions suitable for neutral champions don't separately list access entries, your GM could grant you access to evil and good tenets, you also gain access to champion actions and feats that require those tenets.

•You must never perform acts anathema to your deity
•You must never willingly commit a purely good act that would alter the natural balance of a plane, such as willingly overthrow a tyrannical monarch if he is not himself overthrowing the balance.
•You must never willingly commit an act of incredible cruelty, (such as purging of a), if It’s not for the sake of maintaining the higher balance.
•You must strive to maintain a neutral view and behavior. Though you can perform acts others might consider helpful or evil, it must be done with the expectation that it ultimately furthers your own goals or those of balance.
IMPOSE BALANCE 1action focus spell
Range touch; Targets 1 creature
You IMPOSE BALANCE to the mind of the target. If the target is neutral aligned (LN,TN, CN) this restore 1dX Hit Points the target also gains a +X status BONUS to AC for 1 round.
If the target is non neutral creature, this deals 1dX mental damage, the target also takes a –X status penalty to AC for 1 round.
Heightened (+1) Increase the damage dealt by 1dX or increase the Hit Points regained by X.

ARBITER [LAWFUL NEUTRAL]

You think that laws are absolute and reasons with the “categorical imperative”. You gain the “Lawbringer” champion’s reaction and the “IMPOSE BALANCE” devotion spell. Above the tenets of balance, but after your god anathema add these:
•You must always respect and enforce the law of a ruling legislation, (even if its evil) and accept judgment and punishment on you. Respect hierarchies and government. Even if the laws or the decision are wrong. If following what said above would result in a DIRECT cause of great unbalance you can decide to act against this tenet
example: the ruler of the land is going destroy the world as you know it (kefka palazzo style) you can disobey order and act against it while a chaotic evil may find it agreeable you don’t.
•Every oath feat you take that gives you circumstance bonus to saves damage or checks have a +1 added to the respective bonuses, but these oaths are more absolute and doesn’t care about good or evil.
Example dragonslayer oaths gives you bonus against any type of dragon, but you must respect the jurisdiction of evil or good dragons if they have a legitimate claim to rule a country or similar and maintain balance of it.
( this one could be complicated but it could also lead to nice player-GM interaction)

Lawbringer /reaction

Trigger : An enemy attempt to strike, steal, feint or demoralize you or your ally, or try to lie/withhold information during a social encounter and both are within 15 feet of you.

FLUFF : You impose your authority over the enemy. The foe must choose one of the following options:
•The triggering action is disrupted or the creature expose any concealed information.
•If the trigger was met during a combat encounter you gain resistance to all damage against the triggering damage equal to 2 + your level, or a bonus save against the triggering effect equal to 2 + half your level. After the harmful effect is applied, the enemy becomes stupefied 2 until the end of its next turn.

•If the trigger was met during a social encounter you gain a bonus to a check against the triggering effect equal to 2 + half your level and the creature becomes stupefied 2 until the social encounter end. If a fight breaks out the creature stays stupefied until the end of its next turn.

DIVINE SMITE LEVEL 9
•You punish those who disobey you. If the triggering enemy was using any action to steal, feint or demoralize you or your ally when you used “Lawbringer” the triggering creature takes persistent good or evil damage equal to your Charisma modifier.
EXALT LEVEL 11
•When you use “Lawbringer” every foe or creature associated with the triggering creature within 15 feet of you also become stupefied 2

OATHBREAKER [CHAOTIC NEUTRAL]
Laws and oaths are useful only until you and your friend freedom is not impaired. You gain the “Lawbreaker” champion’s reaction and the “IMPOSE BALANCE” devotion spell. Above the tenets of balance, but after your god anathema add these:

•You may follow laws or oaths beyond those of your code only until they impair your freedom in which case you must not follow them.
•You must destroy that which offends you and your allies and never follow the forces of law if they would impair your course of action. This tenet does not force you to take action immediately if it could mean your destruction.
•You do not gain new tenets from the oaths you take but every oath feat you take that gives you circumstance bonuses have a -2 subtracted to the respective bonuses.(to a minimum of 1)

Lawbreaker /reaction
Trigger : an enemy attempt to “charm” (make helpful or friendly through something), control or fascinate your ally and both are within 15 feet of you.
FLUFF : You attempt to free the target mind from the foe control. The foe must choose one of the following options:
•The triggering action/effect is disrupted or the creature must stop sustaining a spell causing the effect
•The target gains a bonus save against the triggering effect equal to 2 + half your level. After the harmful effect is applied, the enemy becomes stupefied 2 until the end of its next turn.

DIVINE SMITE LEVEL 9
You punish those would control you or your ally. The triggering creature takes persistent good or evil damage equal to your Charisma modifier.
EXALT LEVEL 11
You can help your whole group sustain a mental assault, with a single reaction all allies within 15 feet benefits from from “lawbreaker”.

AWAKENER [TRUE NEUTRAL] (WOKEBOY)
You see Laws and morality disputes as what they truly are fleeting and trivial matters in the face of the neutrality of the universe. You gain the “Awake” champion’s reaction and the “IMPOSE BALANCE” devotion spell. You lose all the tenets except the one to your deity and add these tenets below it:
•You may follow laws or oaths as you see fit but you must never get swayed by those or by a morality choice and follow your or your god vision on higher balance.
•Every time you disobey a tenet given to you by an oath you only lose the effects given by that oath until you conduct an atone ritual.

Awake /reaction
Trigger: you or an ally within 15 feet are getting damaged by good, evil, chaotic or lawful damage.
FLUFF : The body and mind of the harmed becomes calm sanctuary against the impervious attacks bringing him succor.
The target gains resistance to all damage against the triggering damage equal to 2 + your level for 1 minute.

DIVINE SMITE LEVEL 9
You bring succor to the awakened creature. If the creature subject to the triggering action was subject to a save check it treats the save result as one degree better.

EXALT LEVEL 11
You can help your whole group to resist the assault, with a single reaction all allies within 15 feet benefits from“Awake”


Deriven Firelion wrote:

My particular group is focused heavily on combat. I know combat is the primary focus of these types of games with some exceptions for those who enjoy non-combat elements. I'd like to hear how some of you rate the classes in battle after a year of playing.

Barbarian: This class starts off rough. You are almost always pretty easy to hit and crit, especially if Giant Instinct. But boy, you hit like a mack truck. If you get going with a string of good rolls, the barbarian starts mowing things down. Their crits are nuts, especially if using a greatpick.

You start to be able to absorb damage a little better once you get renewed vigor, which makes you more durable. If you're fighting creatures that are affected by your damage resistance, you do even better.

Barbarian is a very fun and powerful class. I put them on the upper end of the power scale with damage and abilities that scale very well.

Rogue: This class stays good from start to end. Damage scales very well. Tons of useful feats. You are the absolute master of skills. You can scout. You can clear hazards. You work in tandem with your party to rip things apart in combat. The rogue has been returned to it's pre-3rd edition glory.

Both the Ruffian and Thief are worthwhile. Either one performs at a high level.

Champion: Most annoying class to DM of all the classes. Hard to kill. Makes attacking anyone but them very costly. Not the highest damage, though with a good weapon very solid. Very powerful class in the group dynamic. Thematically cool. Overall Champion is an impressive class with powerful defensive capabilities that make them the best tank for a group.

Ranger: Ranger is a fun class. Really captures the old edition archer or two-weapon style specialist. Flurry and Precision are both great for combat. I think they are the best switchhitting class in the game given it takes one low level feat to be good at ranged or melee with action economy.

Good perception, reflex saves, and can be stealthy. They also...

Really liking the rating and agree with them almost entirely.

absolutely loving this iteration of fighter, also rogue barbarian and ranger are not only mathematically good but they feels good to me.
I still not had the chance to try a tenet of evil champion, can anyone that tried that share their experience and rate them? (combat oriented like the thread specify)


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richienvh wrote:
PrinceOfPurple wrote:
you are playing it wrong... i mean you are using the spell strike action in a way that it is not written. like citricking said if you miss you hold the spell in your weapon until the end of the next turn. also imagine doing that with MAP prior to the magus (+5 to hit).

As I pointed out, my Wizard had a way of circumventing that with True Strike.

As a Magus, I can only apply True Strike to the weapon attack with the rules as they are presented, making the spell striking portion of the feat kind of useless.

I get it that save spells could be the way to do it, but most creatures that are at least your level or higher will just shrug them off. Spell attacks can make a difference in that context.

Also, while some ideas from the previous edition may not translate directly into this one (Mutagenist, I am looking at you), Shocking Grasp still screams Magus to me.

My main point is that the Magus' spell striking felt poorly executed in the sense that your main gimmick is 'You place spells into your weapon or body to hit enemies with a powerful Strike and spell combination. Because your spells per day are limited, you rely on trusty, carefully chosen cantrips. Even without spells, you can hold your own in battle.' but your little spells do not count as much for doing that and the cantrips that currently exist do not present great alternatives.

i see.. you can still true strike and shocking grasp as a magus without the strike, but i think you want more.

if the wording of spell strike was put in a way you could use true strike with the second part of the hit (with spell strikes too) it would be too strong in my opinion, and also would make true strike an must have which i don't like.
i would not like if the spell would always hit in case on the weapon strike hitting, because in this way every magus could dump int and this would not make sense.
i think one of the best ways to fix the proficiency (or save dc) of the spell would be make the spell attack part of the magus spellstrike a spell save!

i'll expain my idea
you use striking spell into a shocking grasp.
you hit the strike and roll to hit the "imbued" shocking grasp you fail!
you still hit for half the damage dice you would deal with the spell.

in this way you did :
1) 2 strike at the same map
2) apply the synthesis
3) made the spell more reliable even without buffing the magus casting proficiency
4) still get the i hit the enemy with the strike and grazed him with the spell kind of vibe

i think it would be a cool failure effect and paizo did something similiar with fighter feat.
what do you think about it?


shroudb wrote:


So, something like:
Spell Combat:
2 action activity: Cast a spell and do a Strike. The spell gains the "Attack" trait if it didn't already have it.

Basically getting a Strike for free when you cast a spell, but it suffers from MAP.

right, but that would be bad tho, because magus have low proficiency on casting it would be very bad to lower the spell attack by 5, it would rarely hit


you are playing it wrong... i mean you are using the spell strike action in a way that it is not written. like citricking said if you miss you hold the spell in your weapon until the end of the next turn. also imagine doing that with MAP prior to the magus (+5 to hit).


Deriven Firelion wrote:

I want the summoner to be good.

I was really disappointed conjuration summoning spells in PF2 were so terrible. I was looking over ACs of monsters, especially boss encounters in APs like Age of Ashes and Extinction Curse and it literally takes a 20 for a max level summoned creature to hit these bosses even once. I am still not sure why PF2 game designers wanted to make summoned creatures so weak that they were not effective at all in the toughest fights in the game making a conjurer pretty much a non-starter. Even against relatively equal level foes, a creature roughly 4 levels behind provides little extra power for the high level spell slot used. That is an immense disappointment.

Now I build a summoner and find his damage about on par with a monk when using boost eidolon. For some people the monk does acceptable damage and those same folks will probably find the summoner adequate. In a party of almost any other martials, I would feel weak and overshadowed playing the summoner as I did playing the monk. I have no real niche as a summoner in my opinion.

Using debuff and flanking makes a normal summon viable (30% 40% hit on a boss) for a spell i can get prepared multiple time or have many slot to cast on many casters.

I also see you think like an overoprimizer not because you want to be usefull, everyone does and its not fun when you are not contributing anything, but because 1 you do not accept to be a class "as bad" as a monk and 2 you dont event talk about the other bonus an eidolon takes to the table outside of raw stats

Cyder wrote:

TLDR

- Summoner needs to feel more like an equal partner in the class not a 1 action buff bot in combat.
- Conduit Cantrips should just be a 1 focus spell that lasts 1 minute, this will free up the Summoner to do more than just stand and cast it every round.

i like the option for conduit cantrips to last more than one turn, especially if there are going to be more focus cantrips :D


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Guys the negativity in the subforum for playtesting is oppressive right now. Also we need to give feedbacks on how we feel paizo design on new classes is effective or need to be bettered, not on how we want them to function because super optimized other classes have a little niche on current playtest without having the flavour or core mechanics.
right now the eidolon (from only a mechanicals standpoint) is a stornger version of animal companion, even without factoring in the bonus it gets from your proficiencies(inside and outside combat) or items he can equip (not added to the playtest but cited on page 15).
That is the place i think they should be, and the place i think paizo wanted them to be, since they MUST not be as strong as another martial class that would feel stupid playing that instead of a summoner.
The restricted casting is fine, summoner can't be as strong and versatile as full caster with that kind of "companion", even if other caster classes have their own additional niche.
I agree their ideal turn can get improved, but if you think about it they just need some more options, maybe a few conduit cantrips that would give niche advantages and come in in batches with different feats.
Synthesis is cool but should make you (your eidolon when you use it) a bit stronger since like i said you are still weaker than a normal martial class.
In Exploration and social activities right now the Summoner has an edge to any other class, since it can be aided (aid action) by his eidolon that will always have high proficiencies on the ones shared with the summoner. The eidolon can constantly scout around dungeons or the wilds and freely comunicate with eachother (telepatically even when not summoned) about dangers and ambush and if in need quickly getting unsummoned or even when getting 0 hp it simply do not die and the summoner don't get the dying condition but just unconscious (correct me here if im wrong) and some healer can get him up since the enemy will probably be at a distance of 100 feet (or more with unfettered).
The good thing is all the objection i read untill now can easily be fixed with more feats or a "racket/thesis/edge" choice containing one or more feats.
I'll expain, many of you want to make a more specialized summoner, the ones that want it to summon more monster (with cast a spell not eidolons) already have a few feats, and i can see myself taking them if i want that kind of flavour.
We still miss some alternative for other "archetipes" of summoner like the "eidolon-booster summoner" which will need more conduit counter that will surely be added since there are only 2 of them right now, and some options for the "fight-togheter summoner" which should still be weaker than a "fight-togheter ranger" since the summoner will have focus and limited casting options.
Eidolon customizing feat should probably be added to give them moster ability or something like that.
I'd also like to see some eidolons with a bit of casting among the ones that will be added, cool features could be implemented like casting something togheter or using 3 action to use 2 2-component spells.

Looking forward to what will come out of the class, the balancing work along with the class identity, flavour and customization is one of the strongest point of 2e in my opinion, and i like the place this class is going to fit inside the already exisit ones.


Superbidi makes really nice points on how the eidolon can be exploited.
All his points are solid, the aid action one is amazing, many times other party memebers won't aid you as much as you can help yourself (also in life lol) in some checks. Im going to test some cool tricks summoners can do with this, Thank you for the wokeness superbidi.