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Depending on your GM the fighter's skill points don't need to be a huge issue. It specifically helps if Profession actually gets some use.
By way of example I played a fighter who was a samurai (rank/title).

It was easy enough to cover climbing, riding and swimming. Stat wise, no problem and really how good do you need to be at these skills for general adventuring. Perception got a few ranks here and there, but the rogue had it mastered. (He kept up to his agreement that nothing would ever sneak up on me.)

Then for flavor I had craft:wagasa (rice paper umbrellas). I only ever had one rank in it. But as my character did it for meditation purposes I just always took a 20. They even sold fairly well since it wasn't something people in the region of the world saw much.

Lastly I took Profession soldier. Which was used for plenty. Basic heal checks for weapon wounds, such as stopping bleeding and avoiding infection. Staying awake on watch. Swaying bar patrons to be friendly via some (terrible)singing and drinking. Scrounging minimal food/drink when on the march. Repairing weapons/armor until a smith could be found. Really a bunch of stuff I can go on about.

In general playing from 1-13, I never felt a lack of being able to do something other than just hit stuff. Plus, as I usually play skill/ability intensive classes, it was real nice to have a new level take about two minutes to add. Lastly, as an adventurer, my party filled the gaps. (Though they got about five minutes before I was kicking open the next door of the dungeon.)


Dave Justus wrote:

Obviously

Brawler: Eye of the Tiger

Just that makes me want to play a Brawler.

Bard: Juke Box Hero?


Seranov wrote:
Diviner IS a base Wizard. It's just a specific specialization of the Wizard.

This is me slapping my forehead and saying "Oh, duh!". Completely forgot school specialization. My bad.


kestral287 wrote:


When talking X vs. Y in terms of who beats who (which isn't necessarily a valuable thing to do, honestly, since it's extremely rare that it actually comes up and the things that make a class good in the arena don't necessarily make it good in the campaign), we have to consider the classes at their best. There's no effective way to measure anything less.

In the case of the Wizard, 'best' is generally considered to be the Diviner, which gets a rather impressive Initiative boost.

Shouldn't the base classes be what is considered? Wizard vs. Bard, not Diviner vs. Bard?

I mean heck, I've had a druid with an insane bonus to initiative between various race & class options and feats. (I want to say +11 by 5th, kind find the sheet though to confirm.)
I don't mean that just to nay say. I don't really think it's a debate that can so much be resolved. Just keeping archetypes out of it at least shaves off some rambling trails of debate. (Hope that gets the idea across as I mean to.)

Sometimes a bard beats wizard, other times, there's a smoking crater with a really expensive and durable violin in it.


ragudaddy wrote:
I've been wanting an Asian themed Pawn Set since they released pawns :P I understand that they don't have a current product to tie it to, but there has GOT to be a market for people wanting to use eastern themed pawns for any number of RPG games beyond even Pathfinder.

That's what I'm hoping. *fingers crossed* Otherwise my ninjas are always going to look like the Red Mantis.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

This is basically more a case of "Optimized Character vs Unoptimized Character" or "Skilled Player vs Bad Player" than it is a case of Bard vs Wizard.

The Wizard has a LOT of options, and if you choose very, very poorly, you can end up with a very squishy thing.

The Wizard gets basically NO special abilities beyond the small number of abilities granted by their School, and only a handful of Bonus Feats (which can only be Item Creation or Metamagic Feats).

It's strength is largely determined by the spells it has prepared and the Feats you as a player choose.

As people have said before - yes, a fairly optimized Bard CAN beat a weak & unoptimized Wizard; but assuming the same levels and same amount of optimization, the Bard shouldn't hold a candle to the Wizard but for the first 3-4 levels or so.

It may have been those factors. I'm not going to comment one way or another on the wizards abilities player wise. But people keep talking about spells being prepped and such. Such as;

Archanofiend wrote:
The Wizard should have also cast Overland Flight that morning (you can't trip a flying target).

The fight just kind of happened. Yeah there was definitely animosity, but it just kind of popped off after camping on the road while choosing what direction to head next. My bard just didn't need a bunch of spells to kick the crap out of a character with less Dex., AC, BAB & CMs. Just his trusty rapier and some decent rolls. Maybe if he'd been psychic and known we were going to fight and threw up some spells before hand. Who the hell uses all their spell slots before breakfast?

I figured it just illustrates an example of flat "we're fighting now" combat between the two classes.


Arachnofiend wrote:
...Yeah, the Wizard definitely should have had a higher initiative mod than your Bard. The Wizard should have also cast Overland Flight that morning (you can't trip a flying target).

Why? My Dex alone was better than his.


I personally love bards, about half my characters have been some type of bard since 2ed. Recently my players had a lot of success with a party that all barbarians and bards. So many buffs and just enough healing to keep the tanks going through most any situation.

As for the bard vs. wizard debate. I actually had a bard who traveled with a wizard and they had a long term rivalry. When it finally came to a head I (the bard) just made my saves. Lingering performance a bit of buffs, closed, melee. Used trip to get him prone then took care of spellcasting threat. (You need a tongue and thumbs for those.)
It should be noted that the bard in question was NE and had the appropriate feats for using Dex on attacks and CMB, plus much better initiative.


Jade Regent unfortunately came out before the Pathfinder Pawns seemed to really kick off. Last night I did a session long fight between players and ninjas at a hilltop bungalow. Not the first time I've been sad at my lack of Asian themed pawns.
I have both the NPC Codex and the Inner Sea boxes, plus a bunch of the adventure paths. I really would love to see more samurai, ninjas, and other non-monk "Asian" pawns. (Also more of the monsters, but I'd settle for people.) Plus more non-white humans in general.
Anyone else interested in a pawn set like this?


I would definitely rather see a Monster Codex 2 over another Bestiary. Lycanthropes are the only monsters that I really have a hankering for. Maybe skeletons, zombies, and merfolk too.

Hopefully they don't do any of the major outsiders though (ie. angel, devil, rakshasa, etc...) since those already have varied CRs.
They did a really good job with the first book. I'm sure if they do another it will be awesome.


General idea of how I'm picturing the prison cells.

Only four levels like that stacked on top of each other. This is the only one I found that had close to the number of cells I'm thinking per level.


ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:
Another thing is whether the collar can be removed by normal means(disable device) or if it requires some kind of magical key.

The collars are dwarven made steel. There are wands for removing them. I'm debating whether or not they should have lock (superior, maybe with Arcane Lock) to make them easier to remove with the wand.

ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:


As for the sorcerer's mutations, if they are SU's or spell-likes then you might be out of luck. the collar supresses magic and supernatural abilities-so you are kind of stuck with whatever the gods gave you that they cannot take off. like wings or tails, and even those can be taken off if you start to push the guards enough. If your unlucky, they might even ENJOY it.

The really mean guard has a few lackeys, and they would enjoy it very much.


Oh and first session will be tomorrow night. Won't likely be too deep into things as some players still need to do characters, but probably introduction at least.

So as such, to all who've helped with suggestions and thoughts, if you like I could use some people to fill in the other cells.

As such, just give me a name, race, brief personality/appearance (like a sentence or so) and a few major crimes.
for example one of the players has murder, smuggling, blackmail, treason, arson and others. (Used the crime table in Ultimate campaign based on the number each player has gotten for determining alignment in the background section. Their conflict is the straw that got them in the Wolf's Prison.)

Each NPC is going to have something they've gotten into their cell or around the prison somehow that will have actual user name. I plan to give some kind of bonus for finding them all.
This video game-esque side quest as gone over well in the past, so I like to sneak them in there. Plus I like crediting people when I get ideas from them.


ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:


I never did say the outer ring constantly rotated. what is aid was it takes 30 minutes, which is still enough time to wedge the ring so it cannot shut.

The difficulty they will have in wedging the ring is it's sheer size and weight. Because of it's mass it will likely break most things they may try to use to jam it. (Though if somehow they find a way to it's gears they could shut it down or control it.)

ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:


The reason why Arkham could be escaped from was it was an asylum. with visitors, which these guys will never get, since the prison is extra-dimensional, run by undead cultists, and has such a system of screening as to make smuggling impossible.

Which is part of why I choice skeletal champions as the guards. Being intelligent that allows for individual personalities and possibly using one of them as a way to smuggle stuff in. I already have ideas for the guard who is the cruel prick and at least one guy who can be bribed.

ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:


I might be wrong, but i also wonder how oracles curse interacts with the collar. would it stop because of the limiting of magic, or would it continue to exist outside of it. Spirits(like with the mediums and the Phantom of the spiritualist) are also NOT undead, since they are more echos of life and emotion than actual resurrected.

As with the shadow thing, I have run since 2nd ed that all spectral undead and unquiet spirits (ie. haunts, or oracle curse) "physically exist" on the Ethreal or Astral. But the teleportation room would allow those haunting an oracle to "ride" the individual into the prison. Since that initial room has to allow for interdimensional magicks for teleportation to work. (Even have plans for a ghost trapped in the prison's walls.)

ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:


The players Litrally start with nothing, so you might have to allow them to use the craft skill to make very simple weapons and armour(representing them trying to turn their surroundings into semi-viable weapons and armour.)

It would still be very hard, since there is not much the can use save bone, or small amounts of hard material like iron and stone, bits of leather and string. Enough to maybe make some simple light weapons. Not much but, given their situation, at least something. until they can get their collars off.

I'm actually very excited about people trying to make shivs and such. I've still yet to decide what "jobs" might be given to prisoners other than cafeteria, cleaning and laundry. License plates isn't a thing and I've yet to think of something that would be cost effective to produce within the prison. They will have things like tooth brushes and requirements to keep shaved and groomed.

There's a really good part at the beginning of 'Escape from Alcatraz' that I'm using as my guideline for this. The warden gives Clint Eastwood a run down.

Plus it helps that as the prison goes, this tower is for individuals deemed low flight risk. So things like Flesh to Stone or unique cells don't come into play. (Which lowers cost and really, those high level casters have better things to do than work a prison.)


ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester, you have many good points. A few things you mentioned are covered though. A witch for example would be wearing a "anti-magic" collar, so only hexes which count as (ex) would world until the collar is removed.
You did remind me I need to look at familiars and distance from caster details though. Probably need collars on familiars as well.
Animal Companions are not kept in the prison. (It's "old worldy", so a given prisoner's property is gone. Sold. You get a gold coin and clothes once released and deal with it.) Sold to a zoo, collector, etc... (Which makes possible adventure after escape.)

For clarification, the collars shut down the use of/access to; spells, spell-like abilities and any supernatural (su)ability.
Though it may not come up in this particular game, constructs and undead in collars follow the guidelines for Anti-magic Field.
The collars gain their power from the wolf god as well as various enchantments involved in the prisons construction. (So outside it's zone of influence don't function)

Finally with the guards; If I hadn't mentioned earlier in the thread. The inquisitors do not work within the areas the general population do. The guards within that area are bloody skeleton champions. Even if prisoners bring them to 0 hp, they'll be back up in an hour. The prisoners have no access to divine spells, positive energy or holy water to prevent this.
As such the level of concern for the "lives" of the guards is pretty low.

The outer ring doesn't constantly rotate. There's a switch, which is not accessed through general population area. In the event of prisoners rioting this is just left sealed. Until the inquisitors organize a group of vampires and werewolves to storm in and deal with prisoners.
Prisoners might take the guard's weapons, but clubs that only do subdual damage aren't great against what they'd be fighting.
Even then until there is a coordinated response against the prisoners, let them stew.

Granted, there are still many ways around these things. Stuff I haven't thought of course. Getting a collar off a caster, though depending on abilities may not matter (divine, spells that require spell book, summoning, dimension door/teleport, etc...).
Brawlers and other such characters will definitely have an advantage. (Though I'm surprised how little that's been talked about by players so far.)

Hopefully these factors make things challenging and force players to plan. Make mistakes. Adjust plan. But eventually surmountable. Because well... eventually the inmates escape from Arkham.

Oh!!! Last note. The other sections of prison are not connected to each other. Save by being with the wolf gods "zone/domain" where the prison is built. So losing one doesn't necessarily effect the others.


Wiggz wrote:

If you're going to use undead prison guards then they should absolutely be shadows.

Think about it - they can move through walls - even observe from within them, they never tire or need to eat or sleep, they're immune to mental control or manipulation, they can fly, see in the dark, are incredibly stealthy themselves, they're immune to all non-magical forms of attack and they deal strength damage, which is the perfect way top pacify an unruly prisoner.

There are even multiple levels of shadows including the shadow wolf...

I've specifically avoided incorporeal undead because for the purposes of my campaign such creatures are "physically" ethereal or astral planes depending on the nature of being. (The campaign world is 17 real years old and so the "science" of such things is firmly established)

This presents a problem as various layers of the walls cut off connection to those planes. Shadows in particular are "physically" present on the plane of shadow. You don't want people to just be able to use that plane to travel inside your prison.


Chris Mortika wrote:

So, if a prisoner were to worship the wolf god, she could gain spells?

ErisAcolyte nailed this, if they are a prisoner than the wolf god isn't granting them spells. If they were still in his favor they wouldn't be prisoners.


Thanael wrote:
Panguinslayer7 wrote:


It's a damn shame that Paizo did not get the Ravenloft rights after White Wolf. Though I would take a WW Ravenloft for Pathfinder rules, the Gazateer's and a lot of other books they did were amazing.
Well there's the fan created Mistfinder and Ryan Naylor's Ravenloft Pathfinder conversion.

Way to bring the hook up. Well played sir.


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Pugwampi, as a DM their unluck along with others allows me to not only extend their use for players that would normally slaughter their CR but also extends the use of the monsters they are grouped with.


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Ashiel wrote:
Lazy martial is lazy.

Paizo Sins?

I understand the idea of the thread. But as somebody who runs waaaaay more than I play. I'm going to say for it's CR and long term use I love the pugwampi.

It has good enough stealth that I can use it against PCs that would normally stomp it's CR when combined with other monsters. It's ability to screw up d20 rolls even makes monster that are of a Cr so low they would otherwise be useless against players viable again. Awesome.

I also really like swarms for this. The low CR monster that is worth using longer.


I recommend taking a look at Book of the Damned vol. 1 - Princes of Darkness. It's a good look at devils in general for Golarion and really campaigns in general.
Once you've read through the book, you'll have a pretty good mental image of how something run by Hell based law would work. As the book covers that system in Hell.
It made it possible for me to make a character that worshipped Hell (no specific entity) and play the character with "better" aligned PCs.


Also Paizo doing Dragon magazine again would be awesome. Just saying.


Thanael wrote:

Check out the great Witchmarket thread and this thread on the Fraternity of Shadows forums about the Midnight Market.

Also definitely read the Ravenloft Carnival supplement for its style alone. It's a gem. Mortavius converted the Carnival NPCs to PF here. And there's a thread about more Carnies here

It's a damn shame that Paizo did not get the Ravenloft rights after White Wolf. Though I would take a WW Ravenloft for Pathfinder rules, the Gazateer's and a lot of other books they did were amazing.


The newest season of American Horror Story is also set in a carnival. Haven't seen it myself yet, but if it's as good as previous seasons I'm sure it's worth the watch.

There is also a 2nd ed supplement for Ravenloft simply titled Carnival. The carnival in the adventure is it's own traveling Domain (similar to other Ravenloft Domains). What you're talking about doing reminded me of it, so it may be worth a look.


LazarX wrote:
Panguinslayer7 wrote:

Ok, so I'm running a homebrew campaign and in the area of the world the PC's are in one of the things on the map is "the Wolf's Prison". The prison has a reputation of being a place from which escape is impossible run by a guild of inquisitors who serve a wolf god.

You do realise that whenever you throw out "inescapable prison" in a plot line that either the heroes, or the Big Bad it was made to keep it in, are MEANT to escape? That's how plot moves forward.

Exactly why I'm running it. I mean, that's what PCs are supposed to be right? They people who escape the "inescapable". Which is part of the challenge of designing the prison. Making it no impossible but at the same time make the players feel like they did the impossible.


Also depending on your time period, building a house was just a part of peoples lives. There wasn't really any renting a place in the wilderness. Chances are fair that the rogue could have learned how to do it from a parent, probably even helped with summer time house repairs to the roof and such.
Maybe just level (or half level) +Int. bonus added to a d20 roll if you want to keep it simple. Say a week of work depending on size. Maybe not super accurate but for game purposes it could work.

Not going on the cover of Architect Digest, but a house.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Meh I was thinking an honest actual hunt and chase -- free release out into the surrounding wilderness.

It shows how cocky/arrogant the wardens are... and how good they are.

The longer a prisoner can evade capture the more respect they get from the wardens (as 'worthy prey').

The surrounding wilderness is a drop into a raging ocean and weather controlled storm. Thick with reefs and dangerous rocks. Basically miles of ocean that is impossible to fly or sail in. It's been on the map of the region and talked about for too long to change.

The hunt aspect would still be a part of the hypothetical maze along with a promise that there is a way out. (Teleporter or what have you)


Done with my outline for entrance into the prison. Please forgive any proper names as this is also my personal notes. Any input or questions are appreciated.

1. Entrance into the prison.
After trial inmates are stripped of all equipment, searched and given prison garb. They are kept at a standard prison until transport. They are then placed in Shackles of Compliance and transported to Fort Swan via ship with an escort of inquisitors (which includes a vampire inquisitor). They are taken to the Iron Tower at the fort, cleaned, removed of any disease or vermin, placed in collars to prevent spell casting if necessary and then teleported one at a time to the Wolf's Prison.
(The recieving chamber is the only part of each "tower" where the walls allow for such magic to pass through the walls.)

The prisoner is recieved by their second escort. Stripped and searched again. Then taken to a waiting area with a zone of silence cast on it. Once all new prisoners are at the waiting area a stone ring which seperates the entry area from the main prison is shifted all the way around the structure via gears granting acces to the only hallway between the two areas.

They are led through the hallway on one side of a yellow line. Escorted by guards on the other side of the line in single file. Guards react
with "hostility" to any prisoners who cross over this line. Once through the hallway the prisoners are at the second waiting area. The ring shifts sealing of the hallway. (Takes half an hour-ish)

They are then taken through a series of locked gates, one at a time to the main area (a panopticon) where current residents are on lock down. Guards at ready.
The cell block has 36 individual cells on four levels (A-D, 1-9) above the "yard" area. They are taken to their assigned cell, then onto the
next prisoner until all are inside. Shackles are then removed.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Event Idea:

Once a month they can have a "prison break" -- the wardens release them and the prisoners are free for as long as they can keep from being recaptured!

Seems like something a wolf god would approve of.

The wardens try and catch them as fast as possible and such -- it's a big religious event. Perhaps security on the actual prison is a bit less when this is on going...

Nice! A maze, with traps and other dungeon fare, below the levels the prisoners normally spends their days.

Provides exercise, keeps the guards on their toes and allows the warden to access methods the inmates may use to escape. Plus, absolutely up the Wolf goods alley.

Fantastic idea.


Cyrad wrote:
The prisoners would likely get diseases from undead handling their food. Especially gory, bloody ones.

Part of why I decided on the Cauldron of Plenty. I'm going to have the kitchen staff be prisoners over seen by a guard or two, like in 'Orange is the New Black'.


Abraham spalding wrote:
I have always been fond of this.

Which is probably part of the prison for more "high threat" prisoners. What I'm shooting for is more of a dungeon adventure/prison escape story.

Like 'Escape from Alcatraz' or 'Escape Plan'. That's the reason for the quotes around no escape. It needs to being reasonable that no one has gotten out before and deserves the reputation for being impossible (like Alcatraz) but with the possibility that PCs can in fact escape somehow.
Really trying to capture the prison break movie, but in a world with magic.


For the "nastiest guy in the yard" I am actually thinking a bugbear with class levels.

I like the Geas idea, maybe as a sort of punishment. Like before they let you out of solitary they hit you with a Geas. Or even cast Geas on the prisoner before putting them in solitary, something they can't do from the cell so they suffer the negative effects of the spell.
Which would also allow guards as the prisoner is further along in stat negs to come in with fear spells, suggestions, etc... to try and break their spirit.

The visual and thematic idea of the White Tower is great. Think I'm going to use that. Possibly have them carrying out some early "super-power augmentation" experiments. (The campaign world has reached roughly equiv. Victorian era)

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As an aside, if anybody contributing ideas wants to throw in a name & race (any from Advanced Race Guide) I'll include them as an NPC inmate. You can also include what got the character in prison if you'd like.


Thanks for ideas so far.

For arcane casters I'm going to use anti-magic collars instead of cells. Require a specific wand to remove.

I like the panopticon setup, I'll look into it more once I get to mapping.

Few adjustments

-Guards are going to be bloody skeletal champions. With spiked armor enchanted to help against combat maneuvers. With viscious clubs of mercy. That way guards can have personalities, like the cruel guard or nice guard, what have you. (Also don't sleep/blink/etc..)
Maybe have access to guard only areas through zones of negative energy.

-Cauldron of Plenty (without Heroe's Feast ability) will be used to feed the inmates. I think this will be better for allowing cafeteria scenes. Also as a cauldron feeds 36 per day it gives me a number for the amount of maximum prisoners in the "wing" PC's will be in.

-Decanter of Endless water for drinking water and plumbing.

-Shackle's of Compliance will be used for anytime extensive transport is needed for prisoners.

-Dungeon rings will be used for guards/prisoners.

Still working on ideas for yard. Other inmates (such as guy who can get stuff for prisoners, old timer, the "nastiest guy" in prison, gangs/groups, etc...)


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Ok, so I'm running a homebrew campaign and in the area of the world the PC's are in one of the things on the map is "the Wolf's Prison". The prison has a reputation of being a place from which escape is impossible run by a guild of inquisitors who serve a wolf god.

My PC's have talked a few times about doing a prison-break game and they have finally decided they want to do it. So I'll be starting it on the 3rd of Feb. Up until this point I haven't developed much for the prison as I haven't needed it. I'm looking for suggestions to help put it together.

Here's what I have so far;

-The prison itself is a fortress among spires of volcanic rock. A violent storm (hurricane basically) permanently rages around the prison. Some of the towers that make up the prison are at the top of the rocks others are (magically) free floating above the raging sea.
The players will not be in the "maximum security" parts of the prison.

-The bricks used to make the prison are mixed from various minerals that make them immune to arcane spells and travel through them to the Ethreal/Astral planes is impossible.

-Because the prison is basically a domain of the Wolf god, divine spells are restricted to those granted by the wolf god.

-Guards will be higher level inquisitors and clerics. However these NPC's do not interact with cell blocks except in case of emergency (ie. riot, escape)

-Bloody skeletons are used to take care of prisoners. (Minor intelligence bestowed on them.)

-Cell blocks are monitored by mirrors enchanted with clairvoyance as "security cameras".

-Food and drink for prisoners is created by clerics of the Wolf God then brought to prisoners by skeletons.

Lastly players will be 5th level with access to Core, Advanced Player's, Ultimate Combat/Magic and Advanced Class books.

I will add details as I think of them.


Markus the Librarian wrote:
My real question is... How many allies can you attempt to protect in a single round?

As long as they are adjacent to you, as many as you have 'attacks of opportunity'.


Scythia wrote:
Some might suggest that the mirror would cause them to recoil because they would be overcome with shame from being confronted with the monster they have become. Remember as well that the suave hot vampire is also a more modern convention. Earlier depictions of vampires suggest them to be fairly hideous creatures.

Throughout the folklore of various cultures mirrors have an association with the soul. Covering them in a house where someone has died to avoid their soul becoming trapped for example.

Vampires were often believed to have no souls and thus no reflection. Basically they recoil because it reminds them of this. (Side note this is also a thing with certain demons in lore.)


Charlie D. wrote:
But I honestly am curious how you use the stuff in your games. Wait, maybe I don't want to know. Never mind.

With great care and not too often that it becomes desensitizing. Personally knowing what will upset the players enough for tension but not enough to make anyone upset.

I've found that done right the players remember the villains and seem to get an extra rush of heroism from defeating something so vile.
Also, it's what you as a DM are comfortable with. I had one especially horrible werewolf torment a group from level 5-16. They really enjoyed the character and finally defeating him. Which made me proud but at the same time I don't think I have it in me to play a monster like that again for a while.


Got my copy Wednesday, great book, would kind of prefer a Monster Codex 2 to another Bestiary come next October.
Any chance of seeing a Pawn set for this book?


To all my fellow "constant DMs", I feel your pain.

A summoner who has multiple summons and they are all different stock characters for his puppet show. (Knight, Princess, Monster, etc...)

A bard that really really wants to be the greatest bard of all time, but just a terrible musician, not funny, screws up stories, etc...


Vic Wertz wrote:
If we're making it easy for you to skip a book (or an entire AP), we're not doing our job well enough!

Oh, don't get me wrong. It's not easy. Everything you guys put out is awesome. There are just some Adventure Paths that don't really fit in my campaign world. But, most of your products have made it into my collection. (Some multiple copies.) Keep up the great work guys.


You're probably not the only one, but consider it from paizo's perspective. If all the back section stuff is likely to be compiled later, there would be some AP subscribers who didn't like the upcoming adventure who would drop their sub with a view to getting all the flavour/background material later. If that is not systemically republished, they may still get enough value out of the AP to stick with it through some or all of the AP they're not so keen on.

I do understand that this is part of the consideration for such an idea. If Paizo saw enough interest however, the have enough material to do one or two of these a year. Well after the initial release of the AP. For example all the back up material for Rise of the Rune Lords is something I would buy. That's been out for how many years now?

Also I do know monsters from the Bestiary sections, keep the stats for Bestiary 5 or whatever. Just give me that roughly 2 pages of ecology, habits and side bars about the origin of the creature. (I'm a sucker for that stuff.)

While this may lower AP sales a bit. Not sure if everyone would wait how ever long (year? two?) and some of us who won't get a particular Path will still spend money on material which has already produced and is simply being reprinted.
Absolutely everything from the stacks of Pathfinder books I own is awesome. But it's hard to justify to my wallet buying an AP about demons and the World Wound (one I didn't get) is hard to justify buying. But the back up info! Ooooooooohhhh...


Salazar wrote:
Lilith wrote:
Paizo does not own the content of the Dragon/Dungeon magazines—that's Wizards of the Coast. Such a compilation is unlikely to happen, if ever.
I don't believe he's talking about articles from Dragon. I think he means the articles on Regions, Cities and the like from old Paizo Adventure Paths in books of their own.

I am in fact talking about the material in the Adventure Paths, not old Dragon Magazine stuff. I mention Dragon because that's what brought the idea up. One of my friends asked why they don't get made anymore. The answer to me being that it's pretty much what the back of the APs is.


I was discussing with friends Pathfinder and the great magazine that was Dragon Magazine. Which lead to this idea; any chance that Paizo might considered putting the material from old adventure paths out in their own books? Even if it doesn't include the monsters (because Bestiaries), or just the expanded details of monsters... I'd buy it.
I do buy some of the adventure paths but some don't really have a place in my game. I would be more than happy to buy the material from the back sections reprinted however.

Am I the only Paizo fan who would buy these?


You used an 'Unholy longsword' as your example, which is a weapon infused with unholy power. If something hurts you when you just touch it because you're good... that's pretty evil.
I think it might be more appropriate for the paladin to choose to use hand-to-hand and his faith as his/her weapons. While maybe not the best course numbers wise, I think it makes more sense RP wise.


+1 all the statements of "if it's fun".

From both sides I think what you're doing adds to the game. As a DM players have always seemed to enjoy more personality in their familiars/animal companions/mounts, etc...
From a PC perspective, I enjoy it when the DM helps bring my "pet" into the game instead of it being meaningless window dressing. Just don't let it get to a point where the player feels like the familiar is an antagonist.

Nicely DMed sir.


I just looked over at my girlfriend, who has never played. Never looked at the rules. Could care less what a d12 is and refers to Pathfinder as my "monster game".

I read the name of this thread to her. She understands with no details why you can't trip a flying creature. I'm going with RedDog on this.


I think either bestiary 2, 3 or the ultimate magic has stats for a familiar that is a lark or some such small bird.


As a DM I just tell them what they got and let them figure it out. They're adults, they deal with it quickly or I have time to sit back and nurse my beer.


From a DM perspective I'm just tired of drow as well as tieflings. I don't allow until the day comes when someone has a NEW idea for one as a character.
Game balance wise, as much as I would like to just hate on them, the base drow in the bestiary don't really seem to be an issue.

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