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So true. The fighter is just kind of.... bland compared to other martials....
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Then don't build a RAGELANCEPOUNCE barb... funny thing about the barb, almost ALL his rage powers are pretty good.There's a lot of good rage powers, more than enough to build several distinct and interesting barbarians. But there's also a lot of bad options. Low-light vision (but only when raging)? Getting a single extra attack of opportunity per round? Raging swimmer? Healing a few d8 + Con as a standard action in the middle of rage (but only once per day)? I think it's a bit much to say almost all rage powers are pretty good. I forgot about hte low-light vision one xD. Ok, it was an exaggeration xD but there are PLENTY of very good ones to make many different distinct builds.
The fighter does it all at once, while everyone else has to choose between 1-2 combat styles.the fighter is gonna be piss poor at everything... Really? Weapon training will give you a +4 by lvl 19. A raging barb will get +6 Str at lvl 11 (or +8 at lvl 20) which will give him a +3(+4) bonus to hit and damage (more if using a 2 hander). Additionally, the barbarian gets this with EVERY MELEE WEAPON HE WIELDS, where as the fighter will only get teh +4 TO ONE WEAPON GROUP. This actually puts the barbarian ABOVE the fighter in regards to bonus in melee. Also, the Barb pretty much have Bravery+ as well. The Will bonus at lvl 20 for the barb is +4 to ALL will saves where as the Fighter will only get a +5 to saves vs fear effects. Armor training is nice, but with DR/- and a larger HD and the built in Con buff (at lvl 20 getting +8 con is 80 free HP right there) gives the barb plenty of defense (especially if you build a CAGM type barb where you will kill them before they can really hit you anyway). As for the feats, that is a poor comparison to the barb also. It is kinda telling when alot of barbs use their feats for EXTRA RAGE POWERS.
Anyways, I have a low opinion of all martials for that exact reason actually. However some are more interesting than others. Fighters are at the bottom, few skill points and all they get is feats and nearly every single one is one that another person can get. My paladin is probably going to take full attack, but he also has the option to cast lay on hands, cast spells, etc. My ranger also gets a bond, spells, etc. My barbarian also gets whatever rage powers I wanted to take with him and a number of those give options. My wizard gets a ton of spells to choose from and can one round encounters and problems and can do all sorts of crazy tricks he changes on the day to day. My 3.5 warblade smashes through walls with ease, has a once per round super save ability, and uses maneuvers for all sorts of crazy things and he can still full attack when I want/need to.And for those of us who find the ranger too squishy, the barbar too cheezy (RAGELANCEPOUNCE), and paladin RP restrictions to be unpalatable, the fighters simple but elegant class design is great! Then don't build a RAGELANCEPOUNCE barb... funny thing about the barb, almost ALL his rage powers are pretty good.
The fighter does it all at once, while everyone else has to choose between 1-2 combat styles. the fighter is gonna be piss poor at everything...
That's not how that works. How are ya trampling? EVERY melee tends to get power attack so that point is moot. Combat Reflexes is not limited to fighters at all (oh and CAGM barb has it too...) Rapid Shot is again... not limited to fighters (any ranged martial has it...) Deadly Aim is power attack for range guys... so again nothing new. Spirited CHarge is better with the Cavalier... So again... what can the fighter do that everyone can't again?
Nothing in the fighter description talks about morale. As the fighter you tend to kill the big bad eating up the army, which in turn can be morale boosting.Except his ability with swords and armor have little effect on morale. He is pretty good, ok. But even he can be laid low for the same things that effect all the other mundane soldiers. Only because the others give you the role to do it. If there was one big bad evil guy targetting a city or something, a few high level wizards (or a wizard and cleric) would clear it up jsut as well. And the fighter is worse at clearing away that evil dragon than say a Paladin (who can rouse his allies hearts agains the fear aura of the dragon) or the Barb (who will just rip him to shreds faster than you can Peanut Butter)
oh that mascara man... it can make peoples heart break...
Except his ability with swords and armor have little effect on morale. He is pretty good, ok. But even he can be laid low for the same things that effect all the other mundane soldiers.
and your not nearly as intimidating as the giant raging monstrosity that is literally cleaving spells (which would have some DRASTIC effects on morale since spells are often viewed as the awesome and strong defenses that protect from everything in the mind of the simple soldier). Mechanically, the fighter is no more inspiring than a magus. Heck, he is less inspiring than a Barb or Paladin because he has NOTHING special about him. The effect of seeing a hulking, raging barbarian smashing through forces, or the paladin glowing with rightous light has a much stronger effect on morale than anything.
Oh no LOW level spells. The things that even monks fail saves to at the levels those things are common.Paralize person, slow, confusion, suggestion, glitterdust, etc come to my mind.Well the first 3 are generally fort saves, the last one is mitigated by blind-fight and is normally a fort save. Except that even at mid levels the fighter is STILL failing saves vs hold person...
Sometimes you need to bite the bullet. Your most important save (Fort) is plenty high. Will is just an inconvenience to fail (at least for the fighter). Prot against X potion for yourself and Magic circle potions for allies will eliminate the worse case scenario. (Although the chance of actually failing all the dominate saves in a row is actually fairly low, as was pointed out to me in a monk thread I started)Except that your saves are bad to begin with....The difference between 10 and 8 is 5% for saves.(Also you can drop wis to 8 and bump int to 12 for the same effect. This allows you to play a half-elf OR a half-orc because you still need that racial bonus to strength)Wis 8? only if you want your fighter to miss ahlf of the fights in his career. Fear still his you hard (and bravery does jack crap with your bad saves. Especially if you have a low wis). Hold Person still hits you. Confusion still hits you. NE based spells (bad touch cleric) still hurts you hard. Illusion spells still screw with you. Slumber still hits you. Suggestion still has some fun. Spells like Magic Jar still affect you. And that is just the beginning. That doesn't even take into account things like witches....
The difference between 10 and 8 is 5% for saves.(Also you can drop wis to 8 and bump int to 12 for the same effect. This allows you to play a half-elf OR a half-orc because you still need that racial bonus to strength)Wis 8? only if you want your fighter to miss ahlf of the fights in his career. Except that your saves are bad to begin with....
And I said, The fighter's mechanics ONLY support the idea of the weapon master, which is...If the class description doesn't do it for you, then the fighter is not for you. That is not a problem with the fighter or their flavor. Except MECHANICALLY he doesn't support it. Mechanically, nearly every other "fighter" trope is done better with the Ranger/Paladin/Cavalier/Barbarian/Monk.
Your complaints of what the fighter cannot do are not what the description promises that the fighter can do.Except his mechanics do not support it. He cannot match the Cavalier as the Mighty warrior who inspires his comrades to greater power. He can't use sheer power and ferocity to do things beyond that of any mundane with no magical training like the Barbarian (the totems let you do things that are otherwise impossible or magical in natural). He doesn't exude auras of calm and divine fury like a paladin. He literally has NOTHING going for him RP wise when it comes to mechanics that most other classes can't do better short of the weapon master. Literally the only thing the fighter class SPECIFICALLY supports is the weapon master guy. Short of that, other classes can do better/fit better thematically.Yes a fighter can be RPed, but he just can't begin to replicate or match just the awesome ability that other martials can do with their class abilities. And I said, The fighter's mechanics ONLY support the idea of the weapon master, which is EXACTLY what you just described. Outside of that role, they are not that well...
Yes a fighter can be RPed, but he just can't begin to replicate or match just the awesome ability that other martials can do with their class abilities. Except his mechanics do not support it. He cannot match the Cavalier as the Mighty warrior who inspires his comrades to greater power. He can't use sheer power and ferocity to do things beyond that of any mundane with no magical training like the Barbarian (the totems let you do things that are otherwise impossible or magical in natural). He doesn't exude auras of calm and divine fury like a paladin. He literally has NOTHING going for him RP wise when it comes to mechanics that most other classes can't do better short of the weapon master. Literally the only thing the fighter class SPECIFICALLY supports is the weapon master guy. Short of that, other classes can do better/fit better thematically.
ARE FIGHTERS REALLY THAT BORING TO PLAY? Except their roleplaying aspects are also kind of limited compared to their fellow marshals. Lets look at them one by one. Barbarian- "When he wades into battle his anger and rage make him a hulking monstrosity. He is capable of taking blows that would severely harm another man with impunity (DR x/- and d12 HD and high con). His strength and power is so mighty that even the spells of wizards cannot stop it (witch hunter, superstition, and spell cleave). When he enters his rage, his becomes a monster and a beast and gains their aspects (Beast totem). " The barbarian has so much flavor in combat that is just juicy. Cavalier- "When he strides into combat atop his majestic steed (his animal companion) with his great banner, all his companions felt the inspiration and power behind his banner and regained their conviction and strength (banner). With is years of experience he lead his troops through superior strategic maneuvering (tactics) then lead his fellows on the finishing charge, cutting through the ranks of his opponents his unstoppable force." The cavalier is hands down the best mounted combatant in the game and oozes with flavor from his banner and tactics abilities Paladin- "This warrior of pure and undimished purity is a fearsome foe to behold! He leads the charge against the evil warlord with is mighty sword, glowing with holy rightousness (his divine bond). All his companions gaze on as he carves through the enemy ranks, even when mortal men would normally be frozen in fear from the aura the enemy exuded (fear immunity). Even as the diseased touch of the enemies minion strike the paladin, his holiness is incorruptable (disease immunity) and the wounds instantly heal from holy energy (lay on hands). When the paladin reachs the warlord, his divine fury becomes unleashed and he smited his with the force of all the heavens (Smite Evil)." The paladin is inspiration and a powerful RP character. Yes a fighter can be RPed, but he just can't begin to replicate or match just the awesome ability that other martials can do with their class abilities.
Dipping always annoyed me. Why can't people stick to a single or maybe two classes? Because some character concepts and ideas just don't wory very well in a single class. Sometimes, to get the character concept you want AND to be mechanically sound, requires you to dip a few levels. Otherwise you will en dup with a character who is rather disappointing
For instance, let say some decided to go Oracle of Lore 1/Archivist Bard 2/Paladin 2/Shadowdancer X. The "RP" guy would get all butt hurt about you simply adding CHA to everything and being a munchkin, focusing on NOTHING but the character sheet. I would say though, that i am building a heavy SWAT like guy for the church who is intuitively knowledge-able in his enemies. His strong conviction along with a blessing from his diety is what helps him survive an conquer his enemies. But the thing, sometimes you need to dip FOR the mechanics because they guy you are envisioning just CAN'T be done well with a single class. It is not that uncommon at for this this to be the case.
One other thing I noticed. The "RP" camp tends to focus more on the numbers on the Character sheet and tend to be more bound to what their character sheet says than most other people... I have seen time and again from "RPers" the tendency to go "Well your a Paladin so you should be striding in shining armor and be lawful stupid and blah blah blah" when the person only has a 2 level dip in Paladin. Where-as a person who builds strong but sees his sheet as just a bunch of numbers and NOT HIS ENTIRE CHARACTER will play his character as a stealthy SWAT member for his church. Heck a lot of the times the "optimizer" is more free to RP his character BECAUSE they tend to see their character as a character and their character sheet as just a bunch of numbers. EDIT: For instance, let say some decided to go Oracle of Lore 1/Archivist Bard 2/Paladin 2/Shadowdancer X. The "RP" guy would get all butt hurt about you simply adding CHA to everything and being a munchkin, focusing on NOTHING but the character sheet. I would say though, that i am building a heavy SWAT like guy for the church who is intuitively knowledge-able in his enemies. His strong conviction along with a blessing from his diety is what helps him survive an conquer his enemies.
Paladin and a 1 level dip for Oracle of Lore mystery; get Sidestep Secret and, via Extra Revelation, Lore Keeper to get Charisma to AC, Reflex Save, and all Intelligence checks. Scion of War gets you Charisma in place of Dex on Initiative. Then, dip 2 levels of Archivist Bard to get Bardic Knowledge and the better Lore Mastery, giving you +1 to all knowledge checks and being able to Take 20 on Knowledge once per day. Alternatively, go vanilla bard to retain Versatile Performance and use Dance in place of both Acrobatics and Fly (since you're subbing out things that rely on Dex for Cha). If you're worried about all the class dipping, go Half-Elf and pick up Multi-talented Mastery to treat all classes as favored classes. So you'll have Cha to Knowledge checks, AC, Reflex Saves (x2), Fort and Will saves (x1), and Fly/Acrobatics (indirectly) so you can essentially leave Int, Dex, and Wis at 10, leaving you with only Str, Con, and Cha to worry about. Grab a 2-h weapon and call yourself the Darkshine Paladin. That actually sounds pretty cool xD
Yes actually I do, but...Well i hope your making EVERYONE ELSE also have to suffer from failing thair saves, not giving them equipment that want/could actually use, having THEIR equipment sundered, and start keeping track of material components for the casters, ect..... kk good. because i have seen GMs do that stuff to JUST THE ARCHER because they didn't like the archer doing his thing... which is kinda messed up...
Well i hope your making EVERYONE ELSE also have to suffer from failing thair saves, not giving them equipment that want/could actually use, having THEIR equipment sundered, and start keeping track of material components for the casters, ect.....
Honestly, as both a GM and a player, I have found that those with lacking system knowledge tend to be the worst RPers also, and I have been in a lot of parties (as military you have to move around a lot and hope into/make new parties a lot). Alot of times the people who have poor grasp and understanding of the system would be the guys going "Uh.... imma us diplomacy (insert noice of guy grumbling trying to figure out everything he adds) and I get a.... 24. So yeah! Imma diplomacy him!" instead of the "(insert RP talk here) (OOC) with a role of 24". Why do I believe this is the case? Because RP is not a mechanic. It is not hard and written down. And a new player, or a player not adept at the system, is still to busy trying to get everything figured out/flip hrough the book/ does not know what things do to have everything as second nature and focus his whole attention on RP.
It is also worth noting that Oracles tend not to run into much problems either due to ability to use their Mysteries, which depending on the Mystery and revelations, can be quite powerful. As for Clerics, depending on the selected Domain, they can use their domain abilities to great effect. Additionally, at low levels (the levels that divine casters tend to run out of spells) 3/4 BAB is not that much different than Full BAB, so they ca quite easily wade into combat without much issue.
If only Cleave worked with Vital Strike.... Then the stupid Cave Druid Crystaline Ooze monstrosity wouldbe even funnier! :)
The fighter class is no more inherently boring than any other class. I have a few players that find wizards and clerics boring because once they run out of spells, they don't have anything to do. They don't like sitting out of most combats waiting for an opportunity to use one of their limited spells. They like being involved in every combat. Swinging a weapon is the best way to do that. I hear this all the time... but in practice, my Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch/whatever never really ever runs out of spells... I mean, really? Never have I heard of a wizard outside levels 1-3 "saving his spells for later"... Even if you cast a spell a round, with the typical adventuring day having about 4 encounters a day, with each combat lasting about 3-4 rounds, that is a total of 16 spells. A level 5 wizard who is not a generalist and with 18 int can do this pretty simply. Most casters can do that pretty easily... Especially with things like Pearls of Power, rings of Wizardry, and headbands to increase INT (or whatever your primary caster stat). I mean... It is rare for a wizard to ever really run out of spells. I mean... really? Try and use a better arguement...
I think we'd be better served by more damage and a multi-round reload time. Then there'd be no bypassing it except by owning a couple dozen pistols, which is going to seriously cut into your enhancement budget. so what you are saying is to nerf them down to un-useability? nice..... very nice there... as if the cost of simply SHOOTING one isnt bad enough...
Except that drawing and shooting an arrow is much smoother and simpler than say, drawing out a cartage, turning up your pistol, shoving is down into the pistol, then re-aiming... As for the TWF with a glove of storing, I mean that you can't just go "Ok I shoot, reload, call my other gun, store my first gun, shoot, reload, store the second gun, call the first gun, then repeat"
Except you cannot TWF if using the Gloves of storing. So unless you dip into Alchemist for a few levels to get a discovery, or into witch to get prehensile hair, you can't TWF. You get one from haste IF someone cast haste on you. (is was not assuming for other people casting stuff one you). As for the x2, how do you plan to pull that off? Sure you can try and reload both chambers of a double pistol, but remember, a GM can AND SHOULD limit how many free actions you can do in a turn. and reloading 18 times seems a little out there.
dont forget also that reloading triggers AoO. ok so he can spend ANOTHER feat... As if the gunslinger does not already require more than half of your feats JUST TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE...
Except that he can't shoot of more than 4 by level 20 in a round due to BAB... so yeah... Funny thing is, the Archer (in particular a Zen Archer) is more of a Machine Gun than a gun slinger... At level 20, the Zen Archer gets 8 attacks at +18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 (before adding things like his WIS mod and such) at the cost of 1 ki point. Or He can forgo the extra attacks (for ONLY 7 attacks) and increase his damage to 2d10. Heck, a lvl 15 monk can increase his arrow's damage to 2d10 with a Monk's Robe... And he is doing this at a range FAR greater than 20 ft... (try 5 times the distance...)
Pepperbox weapons. Existed in real life. In game, they each hold six rounds. And they're early-firearm pistols.Way to show your ignorance. Care to explain how the gunslinger is shooting off 12 rounds? Unless of course the gunslinger is using 2 revolvers, but revolvers are a very corner case and the game is not balanced toward them. They are balanced to early era weapons...there currently isn't a whole lot in the way of equipment for that. They really should add a bulletproof enhancement or something to get the armors bonus vs touch attacks.Gloves of arrow snaring, deflect/snatch arrow feats Except that you cannot dual-wield them.... Pepperbox: This pistol has six barrels instead of one. The entire barrel housing can be quickly rotated by hand between shots (a free action requiring one free hand), allowing all six bullets to be fired before the weapon must be reloaded. Each barrel of a pepperbox uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or a single alchemical cartridge as ammunition. If you are dual wielding you do not have a free hand... So again... how are you shooting off 12 rounds?
dont forget also that reloading triggers AoO. ANd you only get the touch thing within 30 ft. Any creature with that much reach will be getting more AoO than I can handle against JUST the gunslinger. Add in the fact that gunslingers depend on lighter armors.... So yeah, that touch AC thing is not THAT bad...
there currently isn't a whole lot in the way of equipment for that. They really should add a bulletproof enhancement or something to get the armors bonus vs touch attacks.Gloves of arrow snaring, deflect/snatch arrow feats Way to show your ignorance. Care to explain how the gunslinger is shooting off 12 rounds? Unless of course the gunslinger is using 2 revolvers, but revolvers are a very corner case and the game is not balanced toward them. They are balanced to early era weapons...
1) You are accounting for ADVANCED FIREARMS??? If you read the rules, advanced firearms only show up when guns are EVERYWHERE. When everyone and their mother has a gun. So you (or who ever the GM was) has being horridly ignorant and irresponsible and wants to blame the game when it was his own lack of knowledge and understanding and his own irresponsibility that caused the issue. 2) Do you know how much Grit a gunslinger has? His WIs mod. Which probably isn't super high. So he has a VERY limited amount of grit. Getting a crit with a fire arm is rather rare, so it is unlikely you will get grit from that. To kill someone is the most common way, but that requires that YOU do the killing blow. If the Barbarian goes all hulk smash through the line, well that screws you. 3) The deed you speak of, Deadeye, costs alot of grit... Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, the gunslinger can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing beyond her firearm’s first range increment. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point per range increment beyond the first. The gunslinger still takes the –2 penalty on attack rolls for each range increment beyond the first when she performs this deed So when you use Deadeye, it costs 1 point per 30 ft (assuming pistol) beyond the first. Oh! And it still gives you the cumultive -2 penalty. And this is for EACH ATTACK. You can burn through all of grit points in 2 turns like that... Which hurts ALOT for the gunslinger (since alot of their abilities require them to simply HAVE grit points left). 3) Targeting (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can make a single firearm attack and choose part of the body to target. She gains the following effects depending on the part of the body targeted. If a creature does not have one of the listed body locations, that part cannot be targeted. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform no matter which part of the creature she targets. Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are immune to these effects. Arms: On a hit, the target takes no damage from the hit but drops one carried item of the gunslinger’s choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held in a locked gauntlet are not dropped on a hit.
So Targetting ALWAYS requires 1 grit. ALWAYS. Oh, and it takes a full round action to make 1 hit...Now lets break it down shall we? Arms:On a hit, the target takes no damage from the hit but drops one carried item of the gunslinger’s choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held in a locked gauntlet are not dropped on a hit. So pretty much it is disarm... as a full round action... that costs GOLD to do.... cool story? At low levels its nice, but at higher levels when you go up against alot of natural attacks, it does a whole lot of nothing Head: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and is also confused for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect. So you spent a whole round and gold AND a grit point to confuse for 1 round? really? The wizard can do this as a school ability at no cost as a standard action... So can the Oracle. And the Cleric. The Alchemist can do this AND do a wall of damage... So yeah... not that good.. Legs: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and knocked prone. Creatures that have four or more legs or that are immune to trip attacks are immune to this effect. This is a little nicer. Good for the rogue to get sneaks and such. But again, at this level you run into a lot fo things that are immune to trip (see dragon or legless creatures like Nagas). But for the cost of a full round action, the price of bullet, AND 1 grit point, its pretty good. But does not make an encounter a breeze. Torso:Targeting the torso threatens a critical on a 19–20. So pretty much gives your gun keen. For a single round. Not that good... Wings:On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and must make a DC 20 Fly check or fall 20 ft. DC 20 fly check? Not that hard... at all... So all in all, Targetting, while nifty, is not that overpowered and by no ways trivializes everything. What had actually happened was most likely your GM was not proficient in the gunslinger/fire arms and wasn't doing things like keeping track of the gunslingers grit. Don't blame the class for your own ineptitude and ignorance. A monk can look pretty damn deadly when you don't keep track of how much Ki he is burning though....
Do any of the new Advanced Class Guide classes look promising? Now that you mention it, the slayer actually looks pretty nifty for the class. Of the remaining classes from ACG, the swashbuckler is pretty nifty. The bloodrager would be... interesting. Especially with the Arcane bloodline (when you rage you can be a shadowdancing blurred and hasted monstrosity? sounds good lol)
@cnet AMEN! I feel like so many people hate on the Gunslinger from sheer ignorance and "Well I heard from this guy who heard from this guy who read on some messageboard that gunslingers are hoard OP!" They can end up OP if you are a horrible GM and don't know your rules. The gun rules are new, and therefore require study. But it is no different than say the Summoner, who has the largest section in the APG AND is the most FAQ'd class on this site. The summoner requires the G to be exceptionally proficient in the rules, to stop someone from making a incorrect interpretation or straight up trying to cheat with their Eidolon.
So, I love the shadow dancer. I know they are not the strongest PrC by ALONG SHOT, but I still love them. So the question I have, what is the best/most intersting class to enter the Shadowdancer class with? So far I have been partial to Magus and Inquistor as base class entries.
Personally I am fond of Magus and the Shadowdancer PrC. In close second is the Inquistor. Personally I am glad Paizo is creating more and more 6 lvl casters. I always hate playing pure casters( it always seems so unfair, and my group is not the best at optimizing so it makes it all the worse) but I hating being like the fighter and just go "ok guys, I guess I am full attacking this round... again..." If you are including the ACG classes though, I have fallen in love with the Arcanist (I made a MEAN dispel focused caster with it that was fun), the bloodrager, and the warpriest.
ok... so you have a stupid wall of feats, but how many of them matter? about half are trap feats (see prone shooter). Of the remaining half, one so many apply to a given fighting style. That limits is down even farther (especially since its not like they try hiding the fighting style. i.e. point blank shot for ranged, TWF for TWFers, IUS for unarmed fighters). So all in all, the choice of feats are actually pretty skimmed down. Add in that alot of feats are in easy to follow chains (Power Attack=>Cleave=>Great Cleave, ect.) so yeah... not that complex....
So here is a question for you all, where do Arcane Archers fall in all this?
Everytime I see someone complain about "Optimizers" it always seems to boil down to: "I suck at the and cannot build a competent character on my own so everyone that is good at the game is horrible and making wrongbadfun characters and taking away my fun!" Seriously? Roleplaying does not mean HAVING to take all the terribad feats and the most rediculous things... that just means you suck. So no, a Kobold fighter wielding a Great Club is not a better "role playing character" than the Human fighter with a strength buff wielding a greatsword with power attack....
My bad I read it wrong, they can use their Wis instead Dex for Hit with a Bow. This lets them pump up their Wis a bit more to get even more Ki points. The other big things with the Zen Archer though is the ability to ignore Cover or concealment at higher levels by using Ki: Trick Shot (Su) At 11th level, a zen archer may hit targets that he might otherwise miss. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, the zen archer can ignore concealment. By spending 2 points, he can ignore total concealment or cover. By spending 3 points, he can ignore total cover, even firing arrows around corners. The arrow must still be able to reach the target; a target inside a closed building with no open doors or windows cannot be attacked. These effects last for 1 round. This ability replaces diamond body. This allows them to make shots that, for other archers, would be near impossible to do. Additionally, the Zen Archer gains the use of Perfect Strike with a bow which is extremely useful for your later iterative attacks (the ability to roll 3 times, only zen archers get this, makes the stats more in your favor). The Zen Archer's ability to make AoO with a bow with is especially handy as well. You also cannot forget the fact that the Zen Archer can stack with Qinggong Monk (like every other archetype) and can take advantage of some of the nice abilities of available to them (true Strike seems to be a good candidate). Also there is the nice little tibit that allows Zen Archers to have the rediculous range (especially combined with True Strike. ) by using a Ki poin to extend their range Increment by 50 ft. This could allow a zen archer to hit someone while not even being on the map.
Zen Archer's are actually pretty nasty archers. They can add Wis to damage (which is pretty nice), They get a good amount of bonus feats (which is also nice since the bonus feats tend to be front loaded), and they use their unarmed damage for the Arrows, which is SUPER nice.
So what are your guys thoughts on the Arcane Archer? The abilities seem pretty useful, except for the 1 level dip required into Sorcerer/Wizard/Witch/Magus /Bard to get the casting requirement.
Um.. aren't Drow CLERICS the highest ranking people in Drow society. After all, they are a matriarical society worshipping a half-mad goddess...
You could go for the Master Summoner, but remember, he is having the Heal Spell (for 140) or CSW cast on him every single turn. If he is really hurt, he can have it cast twice (once from each Archon). So, unless you can straight one shot the Summoner, you are going to have a hard time keeping him down. Oh, and while he is getting healed, he is also full attacking you with increasingly more full attacks/Making you roll more and more will saves to resist banishment. At higher levels, Master Summoners get VERY rediculous VERY fast. Don't forget that, if wealth isn't much of an issue, he can always spam the crap out of the Gate spell as well. As far as I am aware of, he is the only caster who can cast Gate 15+ times per day. Heck, the time the synthesist would beat the Master Summoner is not late game, but early game. Before the Master Summoner is able to summon the big giant demons and angels.
For those of you who are touting the Synthesist banner... how about you try and get your synthesist to beat a Summoner who is spamming Mass CSW every turn and getting another 3 attacks AND is casting one more spell than they were teh round before? Action economy is worth alot more many of you think it is. A master summoner is easily MUCH more powerful than any Synthesist. Why? Action Economy. At level 20, a master summoner can easily spam his SM IX ability 15+ times per day (depending if he took the feat Extra Summons). Which means he can easily pop out a new Trumpet Archon every turn (if he has Quicken Spell-like ability then he can pop out 2 per turn for 3 turns). That trumpet archon casts like a 14 th lvl cleric, has Mass CLW AND CSW(2) prepared AND it has heal prepared, has a +4 Greatsword with 3 attacks a round, and many other useful buffs. If you keep spitting out one a round, your action economy is going to start getting rediculous and you can easily overwhelm the Synthesist. "Ok, I am going to use my SM IX ability and summon a trumpet archon. Ok the trumpet archon uses CSW Mass on me." Next Turn "I use SM IX again, summoning another trumpet archon. The trumpet archon from last turn full attacks the Synthesist, the trumpet archon that just got summoned uses CSW mass on me to heal me for all the damage you just dealt" Next turn 'I use SM IX again, summoning another Trumpet Archon. The First Trumpet archon will use banishment on your eidolon. The Second Trumpet archon will full attack (if banishment succeeded, if not, it will then cast banishment). The new trumpet archon will use Heal on me." And on and on it goes. Pretty much if you cannot just straight 1 shot the master summoner, he could walk all over you.
Why does everyone seem to think the eidolon looks monstrous and horrid and something straight out of the abyss??? have you guys not READ the "suggested builds" that is under the summoner section in UM?? For instance: Angel
The eidolon looks like a celestial being such as an angel, archon, or azata. Angel eidolons usually appear as beautiful humanoids with large, feathered wings. 24 points: Base Form biped; Primary Evolutions resistance (fire or electricity), weapon training; Secondary Evolutions basic magic (stabilize), damage reduction (evil), flight, immunity (acid or cold), major magic (cure moderate wounds or invisibility), minor magic (cure light wounds or detect evil), spell resistance, ultimate magic (cure serious wounds, daylight, or tongues) or dimension door. Bodyguard
The eidolon looks like a humanoid warrior. The natural armor of a Bodyguard eidolon appears to be a suit of metal plate, though this armor is actually part of the eidolon’s body. Bodyguard eidolons are normally trained in a variety of dangerous weapons. 11 points: Base Form biped; Primary Evolutions improved natural armor, weapon training; Secondary Evolutions ability increase (Strength), fast healing, weapon training (martial). Fey
The eidolon looks like a fey creature such as a dryad, nymph, pixie, or satyr. Fey eidolons usually appear as attractive humanoids and may have insect or butterfly wings. An aquatic fey such as a nixie can be created by adding the gills and swim evolutions, resulting in a 24-point model. 22 points: Base Form biped; Primary Evolutions basic magic (daze, dancing lights, detect magic, or ghost sound), weapon training; Secondary Evolutions damage reduction (lawful), dimension door, flight, low-light vision, major magic (cure moderate wounds or invisibility), minor magic (obscuring mist or vanish), spell resistance. Genie
The eidolon looks like a genie such as a djinni, efreeti, janni, marid, or shaitan. The eidolon’s movement, energy attacks, and immunity depend on what type of genie is created—a djinni has flight, electricity attacks, and immunity to acid; an efreeti has flight, fire attacks, and immunity to fire; a marid has swim, cold attacks, and immunity to cold; and a shaitan has burrow, acid attacks, and immunity to electricity. 21–23 points: Base Form biped; Primary Evolutions basic magic (detect magic), weapon training; Secondary Evolutions burrow, flight, or swim; energy attacks; immunity; large; major magic (acid arrow, invisibility, or scorching ray); minor magic (burning hands or obscuring mist); ultimate magic (create food and water, gaseous form, or water breathing). Mammoth
The eidolon is a large, powerful creature with tusks and a prehensile trunk (using the tentacle evolution), such as an elephant or mastodon. 14 points (20 points for Huge): Base Form quadruped; Primary Evolutions gore, tentacle; Secondary Evolutions grab (tentacle), huge, large, mount, scent, slam, trample. Winged Snake
The eidolon looks like a serpent with wings, such as a couatl or lillend. 23 points (couatl), 26 points (lillend): Base Form serpentine; Primary Evolutions basic magic (any), grab; Secondary Evolutions couatl (constrict, flight, large, magic attacks, major magic [invisibility], minor magic [detect chaos/evil/good/law], poison, ultimate magic [gaseous form]); lillend (constrict, flight, immunity [electricity], large, limbs [arms], magic attacks, major magic [darkness or invisibility], minor magic [cure light wounds], resistance [cold, fire], skilled [Perform], weapon training [martial]). None of these strike me particulairly as horrid looking or things that demand the killing with fire.
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