Noble Knight WBC's page

Yes, I called it a bloodline limit, and the revelations would be "techniques", this is so the ninja can't take feats and such that apply to the oracle. The purpose is to make the ninja's better, not to take away from the oracle.

And yes, they would still get tricks. What I wanted was a few abilities where they could do something outside of sneak and jump around. Sadly ninja tricks are not as cool as they might seem in theory.

I know logic would say that you would trade a ninja trick for a revelation, but I didn't see that as an actual improvement, just a flavor change at the expense of effectiveness...like the first world summoner.

Still toying with it though, still need to kick the tires as it were to see how the different things work. I was just hoping someone with experience with ninja's or similar homebrews would have some input to help me figure out the problems ahead of time.

O.K., after thinking about it, new ninja archetype

Bloodline Limit: Choose one oracle mystery at level 1. Any time you would normally get sneak attack dice, you may replace that d6 with a revelation from your bloodline limit. Your oracle level for a revelation is 1 plus 2 for every other revelation you've taken. You may choose from the

flame
waves
wind
stone
life
bone
time
wood
metal
dark tapestry

... revelations. These do not stack with other oracle revelations. If a ability has uses per day, instead it requires an amount of ki equal to 1/2 the level requirement, minimum one.

This ability replaces poison use.

too much?

I thought about just taking a ninja and replacing tricks with either sorcerer bloodline or oracle mysteries. This gave me two problems:

1. Sorcerers don't have a lot of flexibility with with their elemental bloodlines, and I kind of wanted them to have different flavors. Also the 5 sorcerer bloodline abilities doesn't look to be equal to the 5 tricks and 5 master tricks the ninja gets.

2. Mysteries each have different flavors, but oracles have similar stats, so basically it'd be an oracle that gave up spells and curse for crappier armor. I guess they also have sneak attack and more skills, but it's still a poor trade for full 9th level spell progression.

I mean, maybe just straight up give them the eldrich heritage feats for free?

Sorry, had a brain glitch, if possible could a mod move this to the right forum?

I've been playing around with making a elemental themed ninja upgrade for a while, and finally started working on it. The fire version can be found at

Fire Master

Sorry for the tiny URL but formatting on these forums can be a bit tricky for me and I can't upload the text file here. I apologize for any typo's.

How does it stack up to the other classes? Too powerful? Not powerful enough?

Right now, the plan is for the elements to go as follows:

Fire: Offensive AoE attacks, and limited improved mobility

Air: Mobility, evasion and stealth... closest to the original ninja

Water: Support and battlefield control... things like Hydraulic Torrent

Earth: Somewhat of tank with high defense and strength

Any constructive criticisms would be welcome.

I thought about fighter, but I likes the hungry ghost/sacred mountain synergy... plus monks get things like dodge and combat reflexes without meeting prerequisites.

Honestly, I know it's hardly optimized, just trying to figure out how viable it is.

Soon I'll getting into some society games, and need some advice for a character. The unholy abomination is "Rhino" a dwarven hungry ghost monk of the sacred mountain. The big thing is it's a strength build monk with panther style, based on charge attacks, overrun and punishing kicks.

As I pondered this monstrosity, I was thinking... I'm not going to be flurrying much (mostly charges), and being strength based and charging, his AC is gonna tank anyway, so if he gets armor proficiency, dip fighter, or get generous with mithril, he could wear armor without much problems.

My question is about slow and steady, which says speed is never reduced by armor or encumbrance. Does this apply to the monk bonus? I personally don't care, I like it as is, and can make peace with 40' charge if I really need to wear armor.

I like merfolk characters, I like Merfolk Druids. A properly built druid with wild shape can be good in melee.

If they are going to be in a group, precise shot.

As far as I can figure, sword and gun doesn't remove the penalty for shooting into melee.

Deadly Aim can also be good for a gunslinger.

Weapon finesse, pirates used rapiers and daggers too.

Also weapon cords.

Is there anything that says a druid has to Wild Shape into the same size as the typical animal she wants to turn into? Could one, for example, choose to turn into a Huge Wolf or a Small Lion?

Despite many people reading into the rules, and their obsessions with templates, nothing says you can't. As always, anything on your character sheet should have GM approval. This is RAW, but not necessarily PFS legal.

And since there are a ton of people that have no ideas how monsters work, here is how to do it.

Step 1: Choose an animal from the bestiary that you want to use

Step 2: Apply stats of the beast shape spell you want to use

Step 3: Adjust size modifier for the size your using (B1 296 Table 2-3)

Step 4: Find the natural attack dice for size (B1 302 Table 3-1)

Step 5: Adjust the DC's of any ability (like poison) DC= Spell DC

The whole process takes a minute or two if you have the bestiary handy. It's a similar process to applying a giant or young template to a summon animal that shamans get.

Wildshape and Polymorph are intentionally limited to not be the 'I win' card they were in 3.5 and part of that design decision when they wrote the rules was 'standard' creatures only.

What the designers were thinking is Rules as Intended, we are talking Rules as Written. The spell doesn't specify sources, so it is indeed not RAW.

And seriously, seek help people... a huge wolf is a huge wolf, this obsession with templates is concerning. For the umteenth time, the spell doesn't care what the animal is, only size and special abilities. You can call it a huge wolf, and thanagarian snare beast or a quidirian war hamster... beast shape only cares that it's huge sized and has scent and trip.

The druid's animal companion has special rules because it is an animal companion. If it had no connection to the druid, then it would be a normal wolf.

In other words the animal companion version of an animal and the bestiary versions are different for game balance and mechanical reasons. That is known because the AC's get their own rules for how they work. The same logic applies to familiars. Otherwise people could say they have a "normal" bird with an intelligence of 10, but that won't happen.

As an example the druid companions do not get racial bonuses to certain skills, and the Deinonychus does NOT get the same attacks as the bestiary version, and it was not a mistake.

They makes the AC not a stanard animal to choose from.

Yes, and beast shape has special rules...it's why you use a modifier to your stats instead of using the animal stats.

And why can the power of the druid make medium T-Rex's and large wolves (says nothing of being dire) but not make a huge wolf? And again, it's not a matter of balance, since the difference between a huge wolf and a stegosaurus is the wolf does 2d6 less damage.

What it really boils down to is even though the bestiaries are awesome, and have tons of cool monsters... some of the type lists are a little lacking. You also have a lot of non-standard monsters whose abilities don't transfer through the spell. Shape shifters are extremely limited in what they can do... plant shape is even worse than beast shape in that regard.

This all started when the OP asked if it was allowed. I said the spell doesn't specifically say you can't, the game world says it makes sense in the standard setting, so it's up to the game master.

They game master can do anything he wants, but there is a difference between home brewing rule that changes RAW and acting as judge on a rule that's a bit...fuzzy in the interpretation. There are a lot of people claiming the former, and I'm saying it's the latter. GM call either way, but it's not against the rules.

Ignoring the fact that there are Giant Eagles and Smaller T-Rexs...

What about Pandas? Koalas? Mega Fauna is in the bestiary, and is a different thing entirely from Dire Animals.

The issue... where is it in the spell description does it says that a player can't point to an animal from Wikipedia and say "that is an animal that is about the size of horse, I want to be that with Beast shape 2".

The bestiary is NOT an absolute list of all creatures in golerion.

O.K. people, do you seriously read posts before responding?

First and foremost, this isn't my thread.. I just asked a simple question...what does templates have to do with the spell or the question?

As far as "Grey Fang", I didn't mean turn into him specifically. He's a wolf, he's huge, and if you know about him, it fulfills the criteria of wild shape. Such creatures exist in modules. Admittedly most are made with templates that do exclude using them.

And RAW means Rules As Written, unless is says Bestiary in the spell, it is indeed NOT RAW.

Summon monster has a specified list of creatures, beast shape does not. There are tons of modules, adventure paths, companions, chronicles... all with plenty of non-bestiary creatures for the shape spells.

My point was, as a game master, since the spell is indeed vague... it'd be easier to say "yes you can be a huge dire wolf" than have the player come in with some giant, dhampir, plague carrying, psionic dire wolf from some third party 3.5 book.

At the end of the day, it's a matter of skinning, since the spell by RAW doesn't care what the animal is. Beast shape makes no distinction between a huge wolf or a stegosaurus, other than the stegosaurus having better damage (2d6+STR vs 4d6+STR).

Polymorph has been a thorn in the side of the d20 system for a LONG time, and while pathfinder does it better than most... they do need more clarification on some of the spells.

O.K., There is some confusion here...

1. The spell Beast shape does NOT explicitly state that you have to use an animal from the bestiary... it just says choose an animal that is X to X in size. By the reading of the spell, you could pick an animal at the zoo and use a tape measure.

2. If your making a Huge wolf, you ARE choosing an animal from the bestiary, wolves have been a staple in fantasy games forever...

3. You don't need to "make" anything... apply the stats for the size according to the chart, adjust the attack strength on the size chart, and take what ever the animals special abilities that are allowed by the spell.

Wild shape specifically states that the druid has to be familiar with the animal, but that's as specific as it gets.

It also doesn't say you can't choose Unique creatures either (Grey Fang the Huge Dire Wolf king of the forest).

Seriously, unclench and let the player be creative and have fun, it's left vague for a reason.

Ummm... again, why a template?

and to mplindustries... what dinosaurs are you looking at? Most huge dinosaurs have trample... and that's about it. Best dinosaur for beast shape 3 is Allosaurus which gets 3 attacks rake and pounce.

So, other than fluff, what is the difference between a stegosaurus and a huge wolf, or a Allosaurus and a huge cat?

So is it ok for someone to turn into a colossal sparrow or a diminutive elephant?

The elephant gets scent and trample.

The point of the thread is whether you can have off size animals, like Huge rats or tiny rhino's...

People started complaining about templates... I asked what templates had to do with the question, since the beast shape spells have stat rules already for size.

I see no reason someone can't turn into a huge wolf if they wanted, a dire dire wolf... the spell/wildshape is scaled to the level of the character, and there is little difference between a huge wolf and a huge dinosaur.

Maybe trip, but by 8th level, it's not that big of a deal that the druid or sorcerer/wizard can make a free trip after a melee attack. If the best thing a druid or wizard can do at 8th level is a trip attack, your pretty much screwed anyway.

Oh, and you can turn into a Gargantuan sparrow by RAW, It's called a Roc.

How does he have Forge Ring at level 1, or 2000 gold for that matter?

If it's a thing... if there is a worry about healing, just let one of them take rich parents trait, take a cure light wand... and poke them with a stick every once and a while to get potions and scrolls of cure spells when given the option to buy.

It's honestly been my experience that you need to set your foot down as the game master early if the players talk item crafting. Item crafting rules should be more of a game master tool box.

I haven't run a game of pathfinder with a player crafting items that wasn't a headache.

High level characters (10+) it doesn't matter. At level 1, they shouldn't be able to make anything but scrolls, and even then it kind of a waste of money.

What level is the party? Which classes?

A level 10 party with a Paladin, a good cleric, and a curing oracle? It'd be a waste of money.

A Party with no healing abilities...like a summoner, a fighter, a monk and a rouge? I'd let them make one just so they didn't die.

Of course, I'd make him make it a rod.

So, a player in my game is planning on making a ring of cure light wounds, which would, in theory, allow him to cure the entire party at the end of every fight, to full, circumventing the party's need for potions, or healing spells, or resting ever.

CLW replenishes spells and replaces sleep....

I've been doing it wrong...

Wild shape functions as the spell, and the spell says a creature of the animal type of X size.

There is no rules saying you can't ask the game master "can I turn into a diminutive creature with scent and trample?"

Of course his response should be "why on earth do you want a diminutive creature with trample?"

Mechanically, the difference between a lion and a dire lion when using Beast shape 3 is reach and slightly better stats.

The bestiaries are not an exhaustive list of the animals of golarion.

I'm confused... what does a template have to do with anything?

If I have beast shape 3, and I can turn into a huge animal, I just use the huge animal stats from the spell. The animal only gives me special abilities.

Am I missing something?

And for clarity, I usually make the call in my game, that if you want an animal not in the bestiary, the player can just choose 2 abilities for the list. There is a lot of stuff in Golarion not in the bestiaries.

I thought about it a lot... and traditional D&D style wizards really aren't going to be much...

Let me clarify... Can school powers, varied buff spells and limited wizard combat ability make a passable group?

At level 1, say a half orc wizard had

STR 12
DEX 14 (+2) race mod
CON 15
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 8

Lets give him transmutation school, opposed abjuration and enchantment

We'll give him combat casting as a bonus feat, and toad as a bonus feat. With his school physical enhancement he would have 16 Con. With favored class in HP, he'd have 6+1+3+3 or 13 HP.

He gets 6 level 1 spells, for his level 1's

1. Mage armor
2. Enlarge Person
3. Shocking Grasp
4. Shield
5. Protection from X
6. Stone Fist

Prepared in general

0 Touch of fatigue
0 Disrupt Undead
0 Mage Hand
0 Haunted fey aspect

1 Mage armor
1 Shield
1 enlarge person

So at level 1 he should be rocking a dagger or club. If he pulls off all his buffs, he'll have 19 AC... and his dagger is +1 to hit, and 1d6+2 damage

He's basically a mediocre monk/rouge/cleric for combat sake if I'm judging the numbers right.

Also, this potentially gives them a huge selection of starting spells as they have a book club going...

Been toying around with the idea of some themed campaigns... holy pilgrim journey, thief mafia style campaign, all aquatic etc...

Most of those are obviously possible if not weird due to things like alignment or water movement rules. The idea that is really the one that is hardest to gauge without actually testing, is the concept of an all wizard party.

For the sake of this idea, lets go with PFS legality for character creation (ignoring the papers needed for things like Ifrit), starting at level 1. We can also assume piazo modules such as society, adventures and adventure paths.

Providing everyone went in knowing what they were doing, and was o.k. with the concept... could someone have a functional party of all wizards for an extended time?

My biggest concerns at the moment is:

1. Blasting: the characters are just going to be mowed down or mow down the enemy in one round.

2. While wizards can fill every role in the party to limited degrees in the fighter-wizard-cleric-rouge set up... they can be lacking in certain aspects at certain levels (how do you have a tank at level 1?)

So is this a fools errand... or would the career students of a wizard academy that got destroyed, wandering around trying to figure out how to survive in the world... be a workable idea?

I just started a campaign, currently level 2. By the first of the year they will level 3 and I will be Dues ex machina an ascension into the end of their current module (crypt of the ever flame). I know that what is wanted is high level testing, but I'm curious how it's going to roll into a already set campaign.

Currently I have a Bone Oracle necromancer, who will probably want to be a hierophant or a marshal. Sadly my group is known for their MIN/MAXing, so I have a couple preemptive questions:

Marshal Path, 'Fight On': Does this work on undead? My guess is no, since undead does not have negative hitpoints... but just want to make sure.

Any companion boon: A lot of path abilities work on 'one animal companion, cohort, eidolon, familiar, or mount'. Does this work on Commanded undead?

I can envision a 3 player party where the cleric/herophant hires an NPC commoner to swing a stick at the enemy just so he can bless them.

Not exactly the labors of Hercules...

Theoretically, can you dominate someone, bless, have them attack, and get the bonus?

That would be a bit more impressive than the hired NPC commoner, but still seems to go against the spirit if not the letter of the rules.

Just to clarify... I don't think that boon giver is too easy. It's been made known that the "barrier to entry" for mythic tiers is the greater trials. Each greater trial as I understand it should be likened to a complete adventure (like a society module). By the end, to get to tier 10 you need 55 lesser trials and 29 greater trials... even with a couple freebies, it still seems it would take longer to get tier 10 mythic than level 20 in a class.

Umm... am I reading the Boon Giver lesser trial of the Heirophant correctly? I've seen on the forums where the concept of the lesser trials is to allow characters to "think mythically"... is blessing the party before they attack a mythic act?

I appreciate the help guys, you answered a lot of my questions. But I'm still confused on some things.

The energy body revelation, the biggest question I have is whether I lose my armor bonus. The polymorph section of (pg 211-212) of the core rulessays I lose it, but it's not stated as a transmutation/polymorph spell effect.

On pg 213 of the core book, it states:

If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).

As I've seen, few cleric spells require actual material components or basic focus outside of the ones that have GP value, most have only Divine focus if they need anything. The question is does my new character benefit from eschew materials feat, or is it a waste of a feat slot?

Wow, Feels like I've been waiting for the Advanced Players Guide for ages...

Anyway, my group finally has it, and the game master has officially approved it for our campaign. I had originally made a cleric, but some issues cropped up due to some disputes on the nature of alignments, and the GM using custom gods. I used an evil monk till the APG came out, but now I can use an Oracle, which has a LOT less restrictions. I enjoy being the party healer, so I chose oracle of life. I'm liking it so far, but have some questions about some of the class features that seem a bit vague.

* The book I have lists the bonus spells as level 3, 5, 7 etc... instead of the 2,4,6 etc... of the other mysteries. Is this something specific to the life mystery, or is it a typo?

* Tongues Curse, it says "In times of stress or unease, you speak in
tongues." But later refers to only understanding those languages in combat. There are MANY situations that can be stressful that might apply...like sinking in quick sand or walking down a dark path in the woods late at night. Is this curse effect meant only in combat or in stressful situations in general?

* The Energy Body Revelation... Seems cool but it seems like it needs more description. Does it give you the benefits of the elemental sub-type (like not needing to breath) or is that just for spell effects? Is it a polymorph effect, or something else? The polymorph thing I ask due to armor, as it loses a LOT of effectiveness if you lose armor bonus. Also does it allow for spell casting? It says like a fire elemental, which should be possible.

* In the spell casting section it says oracles do not need divine focus for spells... which makes sense. But does that give them the equivalent to eschew materials?

I know some of these things are a GM decision, but I would kind of like to know what the writers intended when they made it so I can have a better understanding of the class as a whole.