Skinsend


Rules Questions


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/skinsend

If an intelligent undead with skin cast Skinsend on itself would it die?

If so, then if a vampire cast skinsend on itself, it would become mist but Skinsend disables healing from anything other than regeneration. so the vampire would not fast heal and would then be doomed to die. Can the vampire's skin return to its body in mist form?

I know that these seem like impossible scenarios because why would an undead cast this spell if it would kill itself. this brings me to my next question.

Touch Injection
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/touch-injection
Lets you force an extract upon someone else.
Question 1: do you need infusion for this.
Question 2: would this let you auto kill any undead with skin?


At 0 hit points you are disabled, not dead.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Undead are destroyed at 0 hp.


Stockvillain wrote:
Undead are destroyed at 0 hp.

Then how would a vampire ever be able to activate its gaseous form ability?

Edit: I do feel a bit idiotic for having missed the undead being destroyed at 0, however vampires specifically have wording that incapacitates them on 0 hp.

Edit #2: Now I'm simply wondering if that is supposed to be disabled instead of incapacitated, as I can't find a condition named incapacitated.


Yes. Normal undead are destroyed at 0. Vampires go into gaseous form and retreat to coffin within two hours. they then begin to fast heal. The spell disables your body from healing except through regeneration. So a vampire would not be able to heal and would then die.


igorwolfgang wrote:

Yes. Normal undead are destroyed at 0. Vampires go into gaseous form and retreat to coffin within two hours. they then begin to fast heal. The spell disables your body from healing except through regeneration. So a vampire would not be able to heal and would then die.

Wouldn't the smart vampire simply use its standard action to return the skin to its body, rather than go into its gaseous form? After all they aren't forced to enter their gaseous form.


Mortigneous wrote:
igorwolfgang wrote:

Yes. Normal undead are destroyed at 0. Vampires go into gaseous form and retreat to coffin within two hours. they then begin to fast heal. The spell disables your body from healing except through regeneration. So a vampire would not be able to heal and would then die.

Wouldn't the smart vampire simply use its standard action to return the skin to its body, rather than go into its gaseous form? After all they aren't forced to enter their gaseous form.

(D) is dismissible by the caster, not the target so the vampire cannot rejoin the skin for 1 hr/level.

Vampires are forced to enter gaseous form. I'm pretty sure "incapacitated" is meant to be read as a non-technical description of the gaseous vampire being incapable of performing most actions. It is also disabled due to being at 0 or fewer hp, but it's not using an action to enter gaseous form. It is automatically made gaseous upon reaching 0 hp as a non-action.

The gaseous vampire becomes helpless, per skinsend, so it is destroyed 2 hours later when it fails to reach the coffin. Until then however, all the usual skinsend rules apply so you pretty much have to fight a 1/2 hp vampire with 3 strength now. When the skin reaches 0 hp it goes gaseous and will return to the coffin like a real vampire. Until 2 hours pass and it's destroyed unless it can find a way to blow its helpless gaseous original body back to the coffin.


chocobot wrote:
Mortigneous wrote:
igorwolfgang wrote:

Yes. Normal undead are destroyed at 0. Vampires go into gaseous form and retreat to coffin within two hours. they then begin to fast heal. The spell disables your body from healing except through regeneration. So a vampire would not be able to heal and would then die.

Wouldn't the smart vampire simply use its standard action to return the skin to its body, rather than go into its gaseous form? After all they aren't forced to enter their gaseous form.

(D) is dismissible by the caster, not the target so the vampire cannot rejoin the skin for 1 hr/level.

Vampires are forced to enter gaseous form. I'm pretty sure "incapacitated" is meant to be read as a non-technical description of the gaseous vampire being incapable of performing most actions. It is also disabled due to being at 0 or fewer hp, but it's not using an action to enter gaseous form. It is automatically made gaseous upon reaching 0 hp as a non-action.

The gaseous vampire becomes helpless, per skinsend, so it is destroyed 2 hours later when it fails to reach the coffin. Until then however, all the usual skinsend rules apply so you pretty much have to fight a 1/2 hp vampire with 3 strength now. When the skin reaches 0 hp it goes gaseous and will return to the coffin like a real vampire. Until 2 hours pass and its destroyed unless it can find a way to blow its helpless gaseous original body back to the coffin.

Unless you never left your coffin to start with? You can probably Skinsend from bed while reading a good book.


If the vampire actually cast on itself rather than getting it through touch injection, then it could of course rejoin the body whenever it chose to do so. Although it would be limited to 2 hours if it cast the spell while outside the coffin, due to the helpless gaseous form issue. But really, it would have to be an imbecile to do so - just cast from the coffin.


skinsend wrote:
You cause your own skin to peel off your body and animate as a magical creature you control. You may project your consciousness to your animated skin or return it to your actual body as a standard action. When your consciousness is in your body, you are helpless (except for transferring your will to your skin, or dismissing the spell).

The above section seems to imply that you can either transfer your conciousnesss between your body and skin as a standard action, or, with a different reading, projecting your conciousnesss to your body, or returning your skin to your body as a standard action.

skinsend wrote:
When your skin returns to your body, you regain hit points equal to your skin’s remaining hit points. If the spell ends before you reunite with your skin or if your skin is killed while you are in your body, you remain helpless and at 0 hit points until your full body is restored to you (requiring powerful magic, as described above).

As there are no other possible references to returning one's skin to one's body, this either means that if one does not have their skin regenerated before the spell ends (even upon dismissal), they are thrown into the helpless position until their skin is regenerated, or more likely the above standard action its refers to the user's skin, and not the user's conciousnesss.

Response to Chocobot about gaseous form stuff:

Spoiler:
Vampire Defenses wrote:
If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, a vampire assumes gaseous form (see below) and attempts to escape.

Yes that seems to force them to do it.

Gaseous Form wrote:
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability

The actual ability however seems to allow them some control over the ability. While I would have unintelligent (animals and the like) vampires attempt to automatically go gaseous, any intelligent one should merely treat the line in Vampire Defenses as a potential strategy note.


The real answer is that no smart GM allows players to use touch injection with skinsend. Go read the dozen or so threads about this combination and you will see why.


i know no one would actually allow it, but it's an interesting question anyway because of the interaction with vampire rules.

Mortigneous, as far as "returning the skin to the body" yeah I can see how you could interpret that as describing an alternate condition for ending the spell, rather than just what happens when you dismiss while in the same spot. That's not my reading, but sure it makes sense.

As for how vampire gaseous form works... No. Vampire can activate it at will as a standard action, but it also happens automatically when reduced to 0 hit points and is not dismissible until they are in the coffin, at which point they assume solid form and are helpless for 1 hour. "Attempts to escape" is likely a strategy suggestion, but "assumes gaseous form" is a replacement effect for being destroyed, and is therefore no more an action than being destroyed is.

Sorry for the lack of quotes, I'm on my phone which makes it inconvenient to do large quotes.


Skinsend makes a target immune to necromancy (it's required to presume that such immunity is aside from the Skinsend spell itself though, which is also necromancy). I would think that many undead are generally considered to be substantiated by necromancy, although it would probably be a reach to claim so officially from a rules perspective. I would think (I don't know much about them) that vampires are not one of such undead creatures relying on necromancy to be "living" though.

Regarding the 0 HP thing, the intent is that the user becomes vulnerable to nearly anything as well as is disabled. If one was to say that undead do not rely on necromancy (hence to say that Skinsend would work at all), then I would say that they should set that undead user's health to 1 rather than zero, as to approximately fulfill the intentions of the spell. Not that it matters much, but I'd also say that the body's 1 HP would not be added to the skin's HP when the skin returns.

Mortigneous wrote:
skinsend wrote:
You cause your own skin to peel off your body and animate as a magical creature you control. You may project your consciousness to your animated skin or return it to your actual body as a standard action. When your consciousness is in your body, you are helpless (except for transferring your will to your skin, or dismissing the spell).

The above section seems to imply that you can either transfer your conciousnesss between your body and skin as a standard action, or, with a different reading, projecting your conciousnesss to your body, or returning your skin to your body as a standard action.

I think you're somehow misreading something for your 2nd interpretation. There's no way that I know of which any correct use of English can come up with your 2nd interpretation. "it" can only refer to "your consciousness". It's impossible for it to refer to "your animated skin".

That said, when one dismisses the spell while the skin is adjacent to the body, that would reattach the skin to the body (and it's not some optional interpretation, it's flat out in it's description). Perhaps I don't understand what you're talking about or why you brought it up?


Joesi wrote:
That said, when one dismisses the spell while the skin is adjacent to the body, that would reattach the skin to the body (and it's not some optional interpretation, it's flat out in it's description

On second thought I don't see it in the description, but I could have sworn it was. Still, it's the only thing that would make sense, since the spell is dismissible, and it does mention getting to the body in time.

igorwolfgang wrote:


Touch Injection lets you force an extract upon someone else.
Question 1: do you need infusion for this.
Question 2: would this let you auto kill any undead with skin?

I didn't notice this when I first read the post.

1. Yes. It says so right in it's description: "infused extract", not regular extract.

2. By RAW yes of course it would, but it shouldn't be allowed. People should not allow Skinsend to be used offensively though. Any sort of self-spell —especially one that is dismissible— should require one's will/agreement. It only makes sense. It's just never mentioned in the rules, because it's always assumed since there never was any way to cast self spells on others. It would be logical that as soon as a creature is targeted by the extract that they instantly dismiss it so that no effect occurs; I'm not saying that follows RAW, I'm saying that follow logic as as well as balance, as well as RAI.

How would you like your level 12 PC getting instantly killed because a level 4 alchemist walked up to you, inflicted Skinsend on you without a save, then had his buddy stab the body, instantly killing your character? 7 000 gp down the drain right there.

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