Matthew Scheele's page

Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Burnsville 1,442 posts. 22 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 29 Organized Play characters. 1 alias.


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Just to be clear, are you mixing up familiars and eidolons there? Your initial post sounds like it's talking about familiars.


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Very interesting! I like this concept and take on a dragon's hoard. I feel like one of these might be a good way to deal with dangerous magical items too! Trade them some fresh batteries in exchange for drained lumps of useful metals.


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AceofMoxen wrote:

My Money is still on Torag to bite it.

Or, maybe we get more than one dead deity.

Only one of the core 20 is dying. There's an unknown number of others also biting it.


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I think it also depends a bit on how you describe your aura. "Dew drops and flowers" is hardly something people are going to think of as threatening, but it's a valid water/wood aura.


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Project: J-ko wrote:

Oh my God...all 20 of 'em. So week by week is how we're gonna find o-WAIT NO!!

There's only 10 weeks until April 16th. They're only gonna clear half the names by the time that stream goes live, if I'm doing my math right (which is questionable).

Wouldn't Shelyn be more appropriate for Valentine's Day than Calistria?

...unless...


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Secrets of Magic has good writeups on how the different traditions of magic are viewed in-world.

Also, it probably helps if you remember that traditions are how denizens of Golarion approach magic (both in terms of understanding it and where they draw power). They're not neat boxes and there's bleed over between them... because magic is magic (at least, according to Jatembe)


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Yeah. Mechanically, Thaumaturge is basically a "2h" martial with varying utility. They put out respectable damage on a hit with lower variance (because they're using a 1d6+2 weapon instead of 1d10). Implements let them choose various forms of utility.

Amulet gives you equivalent damage reduction to a Champion, but only against your chosen target of Exploit. This makes it less effective against large enemy groups, but it has advantages over Champion too (the enemy doesn't have to be within 15', you can protect yourself). Solid for both making yourself tankier and protecting the party.

I'm actually split on Weapon - the requirement of your chosen target makes it a lot harder for it to trigger on a lot of fights compared to Reactive Strike. It's a level 1 reaction strike, which is good, it's just... a lot of enemies aren't ever going to trigger it without deliberately setting it up with trip etc. (as opposed to fighter getting freebies with a reach weapon as enemies run past or something - Thaum likely doesn't have that one Exploited, so it doesn't trigger).

Bell I haven't used, but I feel it's one of the weaker initiate benefits, as Amulet is much better at protecting against the marked enemy at that tier. The higher tiers start being more significant in impact, but I'm not sold on it.

Chalice is... interesting. First tier is solid, sipping gives you some durability and drinking is on par with Lay on Hands. Problem is Blessed One can Lay on Hands anyways, so. Paragon is one of the best healing abilities of any class, but Adept and Intensify are lackluster, so... Haven't used in play, though.

Oh, and Thaumaturge has ridiculous synergy with the Marshal dedication as a CHA based martial. Inspiring Marshal stance with Regalia lets you set up a superior Inspire Courage that doesn't eat actions (there's some redundancy against mental effects there, but you're giving +1 to hit, +1 per weapon die damage, etc. after a point)

I do agree the class feats are somewhat less impressive - some great low level options though, and then easy to go into archetypes. Scrolls feat line is slower spells than a caster dedication, but the first feat is great for just bringing utility scrolls like Revealing Light as a contingency. Talisman feat line has the same issue as the archetype in that the scaling is horrible (half level means it never lets you use higher tiers of things that are intended to keep up with higher level enemies and such).

Divine Disharmony is very neat, though I haven't made a build for it. It's something I would have a rogue take any day though because it's an easy way to get off-guard against ranged attacks.


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Well, strictly speaking - the Incapacitation trait reads "treats the result of their check to prevent being incapacitated by the spell as one degree of success better" - not unreasonable to decide that means specifically with respect to the non-damaging part of an effect.


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Calliope5431 wrote:
gesalt wrote:

Grapple does nothing to inhibit enemy attacks, costs actions to maintain and the opponent attempting to end it doesn't trigger reaction attacks. On the plus side, it slightly inhibits casters. This is more useful now that a silenced caster can still drop a dominate on you.

Trip applies a penalty to attacks, lasts forever until the enemy ends it and doing so triggers reaction attacks. It's better in every situation where the enemy isn't a caster with subtle spells and not much worse in those.

And tripping does nothing against casters or people with breath weapons other than make them flat footed. At least grappling makes casting harder while also doing that. It's a trade off.

It's certainly not overpowered, though I'd agree it's often better than grappling.

Now, if we want to talk disarm and shove...they just suck

Disarm is a lot better now, since it inflicts a persistent debuff until they Interact (and thus provoke) on success. But of course it runs into the issue of "not everything can be disarmed". The critical success on it is better than trip but not as good as grapple (but Restrained is brutal).


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Honestly, it sounds like the problem you're having is that the encounter design is literally the best possible case for blaster casters, so them outshining everyone else is almost to be expected from it? Just being forced to start closer to enemies would help a lot though - most elements can't reach out that far at those levels.

If you've got Solar Detonation though that's already a 20' burst at 60', so Scorching Column won't add more range. Fire doesn't have anything that reaches further until the 500' of its capstones.

Water and Wood get the only really long range options at mid levels (Sanguivolent Roots and Driving Rain both have 120' range at 8 and 6 respectively, and the longest ranged composites are part wood or water too)


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I'd like them to finally fix Abundant Step. Because for some reason a level 6 feat gives a rank 4 focus spell, meaning that by RAW you aren't allowed to actually cast it until you hit level 7. (I haven't double checked Player Core to see if it keeps that clause about "if, somehow, you get a focus spell that's too high of a rank for your level you can't cast it" but)

I'm honestly amazed it's never been updated in the errata since it's basically a typo level of issue.


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A number of classes can already easily hit analysis paralysis with their options on a given turn of combat. Casters do it easily. Half the martials start accumulating things like focus spells or other special abilities and now you've got options you didn't at level 3.


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Thaumaturge is a class that can have a ton of variation between builds too, since so much of what you bring to the table is dependent on your implement choices. It's a class where telling me the name of the class you're playing doesn't actually tell me much of anything about what your character does (beyond "hit things with weapons" presumably... and even that's not a given with some build paths).

And I think that's a good thing on the whole, and one of the reasons I like it so much - it speaks to the part of my brain that wants to keep coming up with new combinations of mechanics to try out.


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I will say that in the specific case of Witch, the power of their hex cantrips (most of them) and patron abilities on the familiar does help close the gap, because it gives them universally-applicable options, and importantly - they can sling more magic per turn than a sorcerer can. Hex cantrip+patron ability is equal in impact to actual cantrips (or some low level spells even) for most of the patrons, so any turn you're allowed to stand in place and Hex+Spell is a good turn.


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Yeah, having a damaging focus spell for spellstrike is nice because it's auto-heightening nova damage, you only need one good option for it really, etc. Then your actual spell slots get used on buff/debuff effects that affect an entire fight.

It's all fairly reasonable for the melee magus builds, since they can't turn 1 True Strike Spellstrike a nova shot at a boss to delete them - heck, True Strike+Spellstrike is something they can't do at all without starting their turn in reach of an enemy.

Although for the melee types, they may find it more valuable to use focus points on conflux spells to reload Spellstrike while doing damage, since they need to spend actions moving, etc. and Gouging Claw is already a significant boost to attacks. (Still outscaled by focus spells but with the action economy needs of melee I think conflux spells are more competitive for your focus points).


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I feel like prepared casters are, ironically, less able to actually bring situational spells to bear in their slots. The nature of slots for them means you want the least-conditional stuff possible when you're going in with less information.

Spontaneous casters, conversely, can have a spell or two that isn't always useful in their repertoire because it's always available without further cost to them. And especially as you level, it's not hard to swap out lower level spells that way - if you have Slow on your level 3 options, you can have something niche too, because you can always burn the slot on Slow instead.

Now, a prepared caster can, theoretically, bring nothing but silver bullets if they know ahead of time what's coming. But as a practical matter... if a campaign has a common enough enemy type a spontaneous caster probably picks up a spell for that anyways. If you're preparing for a big bad with a known weakness, retraining a silver bullet in is an option still, as are scrolls, etc. (And then there's the arcane sorcerer, who can have a spellbook of silver bullets and then fire as many as needed after picking which one is useful for the day).

Heck, Summoner gets a repertoire of five spells, period. (And I mean, only 4 spells a day, but) And with that you can still do something like Heal, Haste, blasting spell (I use Scorching Ray here atm), debuff, and then one more for whatever you like (and it doesn't matter how useful it actually ends up being because you'll never not have a relevant spell available after those first four)


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Yeah. I don't think most patrons it particularly matters if you drop your hex cantrip for a round (Inscribed technically, but we know it's the worst patron anyways). Could be more useful with some of the lessons, but even then it's focus point to sustain it... or focus point to recast the next turn usually, so...


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For low levels, I'm not sure anything beats Summon Giant Skunk for debuffing. 15' cone, DC 17 fort save, and Sickened 1 with no duration on a successful save. A failure earns you Sickened 3. It does have the Poison trait, so some enemies are immune, and the DC never goes up... but it's probably the best debuff option around for levels 3 and 4. (Its smaller brethren work nicely for level 1-2 as well, I suppose - meatshield plus debuffs is a great combo)


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Ravingdork wrote:

I've played numerous games in both PFS and in private groups, online and off, under a great many GMs and playstyles. Roughly half of my characters started with an 18, and half with a 16.

THERE WAS NO DISCERNABLE DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER in the amount of fun they were to play due to that decision.

Plus, there's martial characters like Thaumaturge that can't start at 18 in DEX/STR because their KAS is something else. Thaumaturge remains very effective despite that. (And they don't need 18 cha either really - only a couple implements care and Esoteric Lore really only needs to dodge critical failures so)


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Sickened 1 for 2 turns doesn't mean you can't try to recover before then, it means Sickened ends, period, after 2 turns. And possibly earlier, unless something (e.g. Evil Eye) specifically forbids recovery while the effect is active.

"Whenever you’re affected by a condition, its effects last until the condition’s stated duration ends, the condition is removed, or terms dictated in the condition itself cause it to end."

Frightened almost never has a duration applied, so it's almost never applicable to try and extend it, because the rules for the condition cause you to recover automatically over time in short order. And duration does not prevent recovery, so even if you could extend it, that wouldn't prevent recovery without text explicitly doing so (such as the old Evil Eye).

This, of course, is why you use conditions that don't have built-in recovery mechanisms, like Slow. Or Enfeebled. They could still use an ability that clears conditions to break it, but that's pretty rare on enemies in my experience.

The condition extending effects are less useful against groups of enemies, but as has been noted, spellcasters are strong against groups of enemies in general. But if a campaign tends to not have single big enemy boss fights, Resentment loses relative value compared to other patrons. Faith and Weaver in particular don't really care about how many enemies you have (as you can just empower your frontliner to cut down stuff faster either way). Winter is going to be chipping away HP at the same rate with their hex no matter how many enemies there are, etc. This doesn't really make Resentment bad though, it's just that it ranges from "the best" to "really good" depending on the campaign.


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Fire benefits significantly from level 5 and taking the aura junction. It's very easy to apply 2-3 ticks of fire a round to everything to trigger that weakness over and over. (Thermal Nimbus, Flying Flame, Elemental Blast will basically always do 2 hits in aoe of it, plus decent odds of a third hit to on target). It's basically an automatic 4 damage to all enemies in 10', Flying Flame is 3d8 (+2 weakness), and your blast is 2d8 (+2 weakness). The damage also increases every level since your aura bumps on even levels and Flying Flame on odd.

A quick skim of enemies at level 3 is most stuff in the range of 30-60 HP, so a lot of standard enemy compositions greatly suffer from that. Definitely weaker at single target, but I think it should still hold up well on a single level 7 target? (Mostly 100-130 HP, but assuming hard DCs/reflex saves by level... I get 18.2 DPR)

Bonus points in that it doesn't need Safe Elements for its damage aura since it applies fire resistance to your allies.

For a comparison to the build I'm planning on with water/wood - I'd be looking at Safe Elements+Hail of Splinters turn 1, and turn 2 Winter's Clutch+Blast (which gets... 9.2 the first round and 15 after that, assuming bleed doesn't end). Upside is this probably offers more defense as it can pivot to healing/trees, and has Winter Sleet on the aura to debuff... I'm not entirely sure mono-fire is doing quite enough damage under these assumptions compared to the utility elsewhere. I wonder if bleed immunity (that can't be bypassed via Extract Elements) is more common than fire?

Although I should note that level 5 may be a bad comparison point, as the water/wood build gains no damage at 6, and the fire build adds 3.15 or so). The odd levels scale slightly better for the water/wood (1.375 bleed), but not as well as the even levels do for mono-fire. Of course, mono fire isn't burning a whole turn setting up damage each round (and Hail of Splinters is much swingier - since the save for the bleed is all up front, it's got high variance on that part of the damage)

I do wonder if the base damage of fire needs to be a little better though - it's definitely the best scaling damage build, but it doesn't offer as much utility and seems like it ends up being one-note burn everything easily.

One last edit: Thinking about it though... Flying Flame has a big advantage in the boss fight for being trivial to hit with without hitting allies. Winter's Clutch is easy to place but if allies are setting up flanks there's no way to land it safely (Assuming orthogonal and not diagonal flanking). I'd have to use Safe Elements to make it land or switch my routine completely - either way loses significant damage (At least 4/round), so fire may be fine there. Air is the only other element with as easy a way to aim AoEs (Aerial Boomerang being a line - even if you never recall it, they should be easily be able to align a safe shot and then blast each turn thanks to their impulse junction), everything else is cones or bursts for their early options. (Or a wide line, in one case, but it still has trouble landing on a boss engaged by multiple allies)


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On the other hand, the class is very light on stat use, so it's pretty flexible on what skills you do take. But yes, they're on the weaker side outside of combat, unless it's a situation where their impulses are relevant.

I had a GM just look at me and then skip over a "find food and water for the people you're rescuing" bit because I was playing a Water/Wood kineticist. And instead of rolling survival or something I can just Base Kinesis fresh water and vegetables out of thin air, without limit.


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Yeah, the action cost to activate alchemical ammo is a real killer for anything with Reload. And that's basically the issue - you have to spend two actions per attack, your action economy sucks. The feats letting you compress actions help, but they aren't able to get you to the point of shooting twice a round (Risky Reload is the only one that does that, and it's only saving an action some of the time... and yet it's also the best of all the compressors because you can actually shoot twice a turn with it. Anti-synergy with Fake Out, but that's fine)

I really wish there was something that said you could activate ammo as part of loading it or something (if it's a reload 1+ weapon). Nobody uses heavy crossbows as a main weapon because reload 2 is an impossible action tax to overcome, and magic/alchemical ammo runs into that same issue.


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I don't think this impacts Summoner significantly in the long run - they lose about 1.5/target on EA at low levels, but their ability to play as a martial is mostly unaffected (and the damage loss is basically flat at all levels so it's less impactful the higher you get). Depends a bit on your GM and all due to how the class works, as usual.

Magus doesn't care at all I think. Gouging Claw's buff is solid, the damage of amped psychic spells is still big. They can trigger weakness via arcane cascade off a cantrip still, even if they didn't spellstrike it - weakness doesn't care about the amount of damage as long as it's not zero. (Plus, matching damage type of weapon and spell punches through resists better)

Psychic... hmm. It only impacts some of the conscious minds. I think Oscillating Wave is better (Reflex save on amped Frostbite improves expected damage a lot), the other d4 cantrips are basically the same damage as before anyways, so Distant Step is unaffected. Imaginary Weapon was already hard to use, so I'm not sure how much Tangible Dream cares (Astral Rain is slightly better on average now).


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Gisher wrote:
Tunu40 wrote:

Don’t think that works. Nothing keeps their Fly speed when you mount them unless it specifically has the Mount special ability.

...

So I see that rule specifically for Animal Companions.

PC1, pg. 207 wrote:

RIDING ANIMAL COMPANIONS

You or an ally can ride your animal companion as long as it is at least one size larger than the rider. If it is carrying a rider, the animal companion can use only its land Speed, and it can’t move and Support you on the same turn. However, if your companion has the mount special ability, it’s especially suited for riding and ignores both of these restrictions.
But interestingly, I can't find a rule that covers flying mounts that aren't animal companions in either PC1 or GMC.

It's why the Sprite's Corgi familiar feat has a special clause saying no flying.


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I noticed that Repeat a Spell doesn't automatically fatigue you anymore, unless it's a spell that "requires complex decisions such as figment". A lot of potential there now! Not just Shield, but Bard and Witch have a lot of useful focus cantrips that would be great to have running at the start of a fight already, etc. (And in the case of Witch, I'd argue some of those also keep the familiar ability running for bonus fun?)


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Monk having basically all of their cool stuff available via archetype at full strength was probably a mistake, yes.


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Void Rend replacing Chill Touch is a significant boost for the Divine list, since you can now do damage with a fort save at range to anything that's not a construct (using Vitality Lash for undead).

I'm really happy that between this and Needle Darts in RoE the Divine list no longer feels like you're being pushed to spend feats to get a better cantrip from somewhere else.


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pH unbalanced wrote:
Dubious Scholar wrote:
Sy Kerraduess wrote:

Given Tangible Dream has Imaginary Weapon, I doubt they're much worried about the fact they're nerfing its other cantrip.

Plus amped Figment and Imaginary Weapon actually have synergy, since Imaginary Weapon can benefit from the flanking figment.

Not everyone wants to run into melee range with a 6 HP spellcaster! Imaginary Weapon's always been a bit of a puzzle, and Figment doesn't really change the fundamental question of using it I feel.

It's a pretty big difference in utility - as noted, why not just make it Amped Light and maintain the existing functionality like Oscillating Wave did with the new fire/ice cantrips. That flashbomb effect is part of what sold me on the conscious mind in the first place because I didn't feel like trying to make Imaginary Weapon work (and wanted Astral Rain).

Yeah, my psychic tends to stand back and use Shield on the frontline and Dancing Lights on the enemies. Imaginary Weapon is only for emergencies.

I'll certainly get some use out of Figment -- providing flanking for *allies* -- and it is absolutely thematic, but losing Dancing Lights is disappoint.

It's listed as an optional swap at the start of the DA section, at least. I was very annoyed until I found that bit.


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Sy Kerraduess wrote:

Given Tangible Dream has Imaginary Weapon, I doubt they're much worried about the fact they're nerfing its other cantrip.

Plus amped Figment and Imaginary Weapon actually have synergy, since Imaginary Weapon can benefit from the flanking figment.

Not everyone wants to run into melee range with a 6 HP spellcaster! Imaginary Weapon's always been a bit of a puzzle, and Figment doesn't really change the fundamental question of using it I feel.

It's a pretty big difference in utility - as noted, why not just make it Amped Light and maintain the existing functionality like Oscillating Wave did with the new fire/ice cantrips. That flashbomb effect is part of what sold me on the conscious mind in the first place because I didn't feel like trying to make Imaginary Weapon work (and wanted Astral Rain).

**

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FYI, https://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety links to the old domain still on the Guide to Organized Play link. Not directly an issue on the guide itself, but.


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Amped Figment is drastically inferior to Amped Dancing Lights and represents a serious nerf to Tangible Dream if you go with that.

Especially because Figment requires CHA investment and Psychic is supposed to be a class that works for Cha OR Int, but even beyond that - providing a single attack of flanking with a sustain, with the requirement that you don't fail Create a Diversion (which probably doesn't help you much anyways either, depending on your spell selection)... it doesn't feel comparable to a 120' range AoE flashbang spell. I've gotten so much mileage out of just opening any fight by throwing Dazzled onto half the enemies, basically always negates an attack or two (and in one memorable instance... a boss critically failed and lost two turns to Fascinated and then Dazzled basically)


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Eoran wrote:
Dubious Scholar wrote:
So, Resentment patron. That familiar ability reads like 1e cackle nonsense, "oh hey you saved against my debuff. That didn't matter, you're never escaping anyways". Like, Slow is just insane with that, right? Anything other than a critical success on a save and you steal an action for the rest of the fight. Similar for basically any other debuffing spell that does 1 round on a success or longer on failures.

Approximately, yes.

Is there a problem with that?

No. This makes me cackle with glee. I see nothing wrong with being able to build a witch around slowly piling up more and more debuffs on a target as the martials beat it down, it really captures one of the core concepts.

As a balance question... it seems fine to me anyways since it doesn't really increase the ceiling for debuffs so much as make it easier to get there. Well, in a vacuum. I won't deny it's one of the stronger such abilities. (It is, however, clearly specialized towards single strong opponents - it's a lot less potent on multiple targets, though it can still shore up AoE debuffs)


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Yeah, the ancestry feats have always had scaling proficiency since the original CRB - the level 5 feat was only to grab crit spec. They all just worked by lowering the tier you looked at, but it effectively meant certain martial weapons would use your simple proficiency (which every class has automatically scale now), and advanced could use martial (or simple, in the case of Tengu).

I do think that just saying "whenever you get expert or better with simple weapons, this proficiency increases to match" is the best way to go in general. Martials get expert at 5, casters get it later, always at the same level they get it for anything else.


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ssims2 wrote:

Page 264, "Trick Magic Item" feat.

If you activate a magic item that requires a spell attack
modifier or spell DC and you don’t have the ability to cast spells
of the relevant tradition, use your level as your proficiency
bonus and the highest of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma
modifiers. If you’re a master in the appropriate skill for the item’s
tradition, you instead use the trained proficiency bonus; if you’re
legendary, you instead use the expert proficiency bonus.

Since spell attack & DC proficiency is no longer split up by tradition, the bold section can be omitted, leaving it as "If ... you don't have the ability to cast spells, use your level..."

While spell attack and DC aren't split up, a Wizard is still not a Divine spellcaster, so the highlighted text does have mechanical impact I would think. Whether that's intended, of course... (On the other hand, why would you be using Trick Magic Item if you were a caster of that tradition anyways? So I assume the intent was proficiency, and it's just doubly wrong?)


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Stabilizing an ally isn't any better with the change though. That brings them to Dying 0... and increases their wounded condition. But they're still unconscious. If they were Wounded 0, stabilizing them actually makes it easier for them to die to a stray AoE!

Think about that for a second. If they're at Dying 1, you're being a helpful teammate and Stabilize, they go to Dying 0 Wounded 1. Getting hit makes them Dying 2 Wounded 1. If you hadn't helped them, they'd only be Dying 2 Wounded 0, which has drastically higher odds of not dying, and you could have spent those actions damaging whatever is threatening them.

How does it make any sense for the rules to outright penalize leaping to an ally's aid like that?


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Another issue - lethality enforces minmaxing for survival. Do we want to just mandate everyone build their characters to maximize their AC/saves? How risky should it be to not max your AC? Because higher lethality increases that risk and punishes suboptimal defenses.


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LandSwordBear wrote:
I’m just here waiting for the spoilers….

Aroden dies.


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As a simple question though: Does this actually improve anything? Because all it seems to do is make things more lethal.

And I get that Wounded was added to the game to address a specific mechanical issue with PCs popping up and down from healing. But I assert that it accomplishes its goal solely by increasing the initial dying value - stacking additional increases on recovery saves/damage is unnecessary to avoid the play patterns Wounded is intended to prevent.

At that point, I'm forced to ask whether there is any benefit to this? Because the way I've been playing all these years has certainly never run into the issues Wounded aims to address - there's just too much of a cost to going down even once already (and in fact, I'm wondering if a large part of the original issue is quadratic wizards, which is much less of a problem in 2e, and how martial classes are hurt more by being downed than casters)

Ultimately, lethality is not a virtue. It's a balancing act and part of creating tension in the game and story. However, the way I've been playing all these years has never felt lacking in that tension due to how going down can already snowball, well tuned encounter math, etc. As such, I see no reason to increase lethality - it's pointless, because lethality is a tool, not a goal.

I would like to see Paizo errata this change out (and de facto, this is a rules change for a lot of players), because it provides no benefit to the game as a whole, while at the same time it hurts the game in other areas (such as how Orc Ferocity goes from being a cool risk/reward choice to suicide, or how it makes Fast Healing effects extremely risky)


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If I had to sum up my thoughts - I think the change (and it's absolutely a change for a large portion of the playerbase, if not the majority) is pointless and detracts from the game for a few reasons.

First, it increases the lethality of low levels. This is basically objectively bad (there's a reason Society play ended up making massive damage impossible at level 1, after all - it was just too easy for a boss to randomly crit for double the HP of a backline character, and that's not fun for anyone)

Second, it breaks the clean progression of wounded and odds of dying. Before, you have the math break down as "probably stabilizes", "toss up", "probably dies", "is dead" for getting dropped at Wounded 0-3. This change makes it go from "probably stabilizes" to "probably dies" immediately, which is unappealing to me (the linear progression is good).

Third, the already noted issues with persistent damage. It becomes basically instant death to get dropped with persistent damage even if you aren't wounded! (Because even if you make the flat check for persistent damage, you either make your recovery save... go to Wounded 1... and then get dropped to Dying 2 / Wounded 1 immediately, or don't make it and it drops you to Dying 3. In either case the most likely outcome is you die within 2 rounds)

Fourth, considering how easily Wounded is cleared out of combat, it really doesn't make sense for it to a binary "barely hanging on" type condition, which is what the math works out to for this change. It's going from "you're dazed and groggy but still in this" to "you're holding your guts in" narratively it feels like when you look at the math and survivability just drops off a cliff at just Wounded 1. And yet 10m of treatment makes it so it never happened? That makes more sense for Wounded 1 being less crippling.

Fifth, as an extension of that - this change makes healing up between fights basically mandatory, because a second fight without a heal break is just going to murder anyone who got unlucky and dropped to 0 the last fight. Being able to press on under narrative pressure, or have surprise reinforcements show up, etc - this change is actively hostile to that kind of narrative development because of how a PC with Wounded is now at "avoid all damage no matter what or die". Which, really - gets to a more basic point:

Lethality is not compatible with a heroic narrative. Heroes, by definition, survive impossible odds, wounds that should have killed them, etc. This change is antithetical to the basic premise of the game system I feel. It's fine for a GM to feel a campaign is better suited to higher risk of death, but that should be something decided on a campaign basis and not baked into the base rules.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
I wasn't aware people didn't interpret it this way from the very start... good on the remaster team for making it more clear this time around, maybe this explains why some people never thought the first four levels were as deadly serious as they really are and got into the habit of using (wasting) Hero Points on stuff like rerolls as opposed to holding onto them in order to save your PCs life in the event of a single mid-high damage roll crit against your character in round 1 or 2 which destroys any momentum a party could hope to have in an at or above level threat encounter.

The hero point doesn't really do much here though - you still end up unconscious and with no hero points. Generally, it's saved for use only when you'd go to dying 4 anyways, since it clears it no matter how far down you are and you need help to get back up whether you use it or not. It's just a free Stabilize (without increasing Wounded).


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Unicore wrote:

Jason Bulmahn is notorious for liking a lethal tone in his games. I am not surprised to learn this was always the intent. I predict this will be a common house rule change and a trivially easy one to do. I will definitely be talking it over with my players rather than forcing it into any of my games I run , any time soon.

I don’t really think it is that big a deal personally though.

Anecdotally, I've never seen a single society game that applied wounded except to the initial tick. If this was the intent, they wrote the rules terribly to convey it.

And as I've noted, there's stuff in the CRB that only makes sense under that interpretation (Orc Ferocity is a deathtrap of a feat that's worse than useless if wounded is this lethal)

Someone already went through the math up-thread. This change does very little mathematically except make Wounded 1, specifically, incredibly more lethal.

(It also makes Diehard and equivalent basically only have any effect at all on survival odds at Wounded 1, specifically, because you die impossibly fast at any higher value)

There's more than enough of a cost to someone going down once without this. (I also dislike it because it drastically shifts healing value to being much worse on people at 0 HP compared to not-0, in a system where bosses are notorious for being able to do giant damage spikes, especially at early levels - they already had to issue PFS rules changes to avoid massive damage applying at level 1)


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Teridax wrote:

While this is a clarification of existing rules and therefore not a real change, I personally prefer having the wounded condition merely increase the starting value, instead of adding to the dying value each time it increments. The current rule I feel is not only excessively deadly, but also causes recovery checks to spike in failure rate from the first application of the condition instead of being smoother.

With RAW rules for dying and wounded, your chance of death is the following based on your wounded condition, excluding effects like Toughness or Diehard, as well as further incoming damage:

  • 0: 31%
  • 1: 73% (!)
  • 2: 88%
  • 3: 100%

    So already, with just wounded 1 your chance of death more than doubles, and immediately gets near the range where you're about three times more likely to die as you are to survive. If anything like persistent damage gets involved, you're toast. By contrast, if wounded merely increments your starting dying value, your chance of death becomes the following:

  • 0: 31%
  • 1: 50%
  • 2: 74%
  • 3: 100%

    Which I'd say is much smoother and more reasonable. A 50/50 chance of death is already pretty scary, and it only gets dicier from there, but at least it doesn't immediately spike into near-certain death territory the moment you get the wounded condition.

  • Yeah, the math on this is really screwy I think. It also makes feats like Orc Ferocity a complete trap if this is really how the rules are intended to be run. (Because you're dramatically safer at Dying 1 and 0 HP than 1 HP and Wounded 1 under this - the risk/reward of the feat is skewed ludicrously against ever using it unless you're accounting for meta knowledge of turn orders and such and a heal is literally the very next action)

    The action costs of going down were already pretty steep for martials, there's absolutely no need to make Wounded nastier than it was already being run.


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    The vehemence with which people are insisting theirs is the only possible way to read Protector Tree is rather irritating. The amount of disagreement ipso facto demonstrates that no, yours is not the one true reading, let it go.

    Any players who want to take it should probably clarify with their GM, but it's a strong defensive option regardless against any enemy that relies on strikes for damage (with some GMs you just need to keep allies between you and the enemy, but kineticists have little issue fighting from 10-20' away anyways). Even if an enemy decides to attack the tree first to kill it faster, that means they're burning their best attack each round hitting it, and spending two actions a round to negate the best attack the boss has each turn is a net win for the party.

    One thing that I've noticed though - the spell doesn't indicate the saving throws of the tree, so I'm not actually sure how to handle it being caught in a breath attack (besides the obvious that it fails to protect any allies).

    **

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    My first impression is positive on this. I'm glad to see that this looks to be grandfathering in existing characters as much as possible, while the free rebuilds allow people the option to convert to new versions of the class or any other options. Overall, this feels like it gives as much choice as possible for players and that's a good thing.

    The removal of pathfinder training is only going to get a big "meh" from me - I basically picked Generalist on every character anyways for the slightly better healing potions and I can't recall the last time I took anything but that for supplies anyways (aside from scrolls of Heal on appropriate characters maybe).


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    Copying from someone else's spellbook is explicitly Learn a Spell - it's no different from having someone teach you. Very first sentence of the activity: "You can gain access to a new spell of your tradition from someone who knows that spell or from magical writing like a spellbook or scroll"

    If we look at the end of the activity, we see "If you have a spellbook, Learning a Spell lets you add the spell to your spellbook; if you prepare spells from a list, it's added to your list; if you have a spell repertoire, you can select it when you add or swap spells." This doesn't suggest that Learn a Spell is the only way to add to a spellbook, necessarily - rather that you add a new spell to your spellbook when you learn it. I think the idea here is that the cost of Learn a Spell has to do with the materials used in the process of actually learning it. That is, experimentation, etc. After all, most classes don't use spellbooks for their casting anyways.

    I'd probably just rule it as costing a fairly trivial amount of gold, but taking a decent amount of time to duplicate a spellbook, since presumably you need to write carefully, make some precise diagrams, etc.


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    shroudb wrote:

    Also, to add on the above, with Proliferate you can only create natural forms of the elements and not crafted forms. "a block of wood" sounds very much like "durable, crafted goods", or processed material, especially when the example given is "a twig to a small tree".

    A small tree that would fit inside a 5ft cube is not that big to fully close a corridor.

    Fallen logs are perfectly natural forms of wood.


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    I do have a water/wood kineticist I'm planning on using Winter Sleet on, but it almost certainly becomes my backup aura option once I hit level 8 and can take Drifting Pollen. Yes, I do like an aura of Dazzled and Sickened, and then I can fall back on Sleet if I'm fighting constructs or something. (And eventually retrain Sleet out entirely once I can get Sea Glass Guardians probably)


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    QuidEst wrote:
    I believe that Nidal's library is the oldest mortal collection of written works on the planet, having been started about 10,000 years ago, and collecting the most important works of Earthfall's survivors at the time. It predates the Magaambya's founding by about three thousand years. Nidal wins a lot of "oldest X" contests because it's the only nation to have survived the apocalypse. Even on the other side of the planet, politics caused too much turnover for any nations to have survived that long. Nidal has a god personally in charge of its politics, through three undying mouthpieces. Not great for quality of life, amazing for long-term preservation of historical records.

    Well, the elves probably have some even older texts they took with them to Sovyrian, but that's not technically on Golarion anymore.

    As far as "every book ever written"... that's probably only going to be found in the outer planes somewhere. Abadar's First Vault would be a good candidate. The Akashic Record too.


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    It's a very good aura, it's not remotely broken imo - higher level enemies get more and more ways to ignore it, and it basically requires the investment in Safe Elements.

    A big reason I don't see much issue is that flanking is very easy to set up as is for Barbarian starting at level 1, because Sudden Charge is really good for "I move into flank and strike".

    I just think there's so many easy ways to get flat-footed on enemies that I'm unconcerned about it.

    The effects it has on movement are impressive, but you should consider that the barbarian is going to be putting enemies into melee range anyways with them. It's more of a problem for enemies trying to get away from the barbarian, if anything. (It does impair enemies trying to run in to get the first hit, but... just have them go for the barbarian's allies. They're not in the center of the aura, so there's no space an ally can stand without being adjacent to a non-ice square. (At least until you can expand the radius at higher levels).

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