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Dubious Scholar wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

So is there a way to make the Backpack Ballista into an elemental weapon?

That's kind of a whole apparatus on your back and might go beyond one handed weapons, but mainly no because it's 1+

If 1+ are excluded it makes getting a ranged elemental weapon limited to stuff with reload or things you throw, both of which have issues (potentially - if resummoning is allowed to always be loaded reload isn't a big deal).

It's still the same weapon when you regather so I wouldn't assume it automatically reloads it for you. You could however, take the feat multiple times for multiple loaded weapons and pick a new one everytime you regather.

It's the same weapon type, but it's a new instance of the weapon. If I gather air in Irrisen and then the next session I'm in the Mwangi Jungle, in what way is it the same weapon?

So here's a fun one - air element pistol with Concussive. The damage type is slashing. What resistance applies?

Edit: Oh hell. Do elemental weapons benefit from runes? Because they're not element blast strikes, but there's nothing to put runes on, so uh...?

I'll just point out that it's not like Ranger can't already be flying every fight starting at level 7 with the APG.

Composite Longbow is questionable for Elemental Weapon. Is 1+ a one-handed weapon? It only uses one hand... except for when it's being fired, after all.

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Desert Shimmer is pretty decent utility. Imposing even a DC 5 flat check on all strikes is pretty useful, and the ability to hide yourself in your own aura has possibilities.

The best part of this aura IMO is "You ignore concealment caused by heat shimmers".

It's a pretty rare to see an area blindness/concealment effect that ignores the caster, also the additional damage isn't a bad thing too.
But as all other offensive auras. It's really works only after Aura Shaping or will get in the way of your allies too.

But once you get Aura Shaping your allies get to ignore the concealment and damage, so now it's just a 20' field of concealment for the whole party with no drawbacks.

The real problem is that it's currently impossible (I believe) to base a check on Constitution. We've turned everything into a skills check (like "can you lift the heavy thing" is an Athletics check not a Strength check) so we'd need to invent something else. If there was a single skill that was based on Constitution we could make a skills check for "are you tough enough to do [whatever] with your internal gate" but alas.

Fortitude save.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Like the real issue I saw (as I saw up thread) is that I just didn't see many turns where I could hit very enemies with a small burst or a line. I don't know if that was just "the game I was in" or if that's normal. Like a 20' burst you can absolutely hit things, but the low level ones look to me like the Barbarian Feat "Swipe" which I would never take because I might get to use it like 2 times in a campaign. I'm sure there are other people who consider it amazing so I don't know what to think here.

This is why people are saying that AoE is not that important. Becaus while the huge AoE might hit at least 2 people, odds are the small AoE will only hit 1.

It is literally up the GM actively putting people in super tight formations which just makes the whole thing feel cheap.

Lines are really nice for that whole hitting two enemies deal. Can't often hit 3+, but hitting 2 is pretty easy, and they're also good at weaving between allies because of how flexible your placement is.

It's pretty easy to have a familiar just do Speech+Skilled and now it's a recall knowledge you can change every day. There's some useful options that work fine for kineticists.

I may have quibles with damage or mechanical interactions like AoO, but ultimately the design of the class (a martial attacker that spends their stance to cast slotless spell like effects) is a winner for me in terms of mechanics and themes. I think as a rough draft it's an excellent, fun class and I hope it more or less still resembles this when the final iteration drops. Kudos to the team

Agreed. My list of changes right now would be:

If a summoner keeps their big ass Eidolon out to avoid the 3 actions to manifest it, I can't see why not you can't have your arm on fire.

This is really fun for some eidolons though. It's entirely justifiable for a Fey eidolon to look like an exotic humanoid, and a Beast eidolon an exotic pet (or even just a big dog, everyone pet the big fluffy dog).

Even air though is probably noticable to someone being watchful, earth is probably the least obvious as it might look like you're just fidgeting with some rocks in your hand. Water and fire are very clearly magic, and why are you doing that sir, are you planning to be casting something soon? Perhaps we should talk down at the guard post, hmm?

Wings of Air is really good. That said, they already gave the Sprite ancestry a pretty silly amount of flight ability at 9 anyways (with bonus 4th level invisibility as an innate spell... every. hour. at 13)

I don't think it's too good though. Rangers can already get a fly speed via focus spell at level 7, Sorcerers can at 6, etc.

For sustained effects, an impulse is basically exactly the same as a focus spell since you throw it out at the start of a fight and move on (well, not quite the same, but the gap is much less)

Hahaha, what?

Air kineticists get to spend 3 actions+overflow+sustain (seriously wtf) for a half size Wall of Wind, the weakest of walls, while earth gets 2 actions, not overflow, for Wall of Stone? (yes yes, also sustained, but at two actions not overflow you can just blast>wall to block off the enemies after... then repeat. God that seems so abusable with some tactical delays on your party. ...I want to way buff Celestial Palisade but you're right, that seems broken)

I would say this is forced movement for everyone. Willing allies are not at any point satisfying the printed requirements of AoO effects anyways, because importantly - they aren't using actions of any sort, not even free actions. Hard to take a movement action when you aren't doing an action.

The thing about "the Kineticist is about 2-4 damage low" sounds right to me since one of the strange things about the class is that almost everybody else gets to add a stat in some capacity to damage or gets some sort of damage bonus to their attacks (since they're weapons that usually add str or half strength to damage) or something that adds static damage (inventor's Overdrive; precision damage for Rangers, Swashbucklers, Investigators, etc.; even the Gunslinger's +1 combined with getting the most out of weapon spec.)

If you were to add a static modifier to kinetic blasts, you'd probably run into a problem with earth blasts being overtuned since they also get propulsive. But if you just added Con to blast damage (like cantrips) and replaced propulsive on Earth blasts with something else that's useful, I think that would work.

Yeah. I'd like the bonus to have some scaling to it (Overdrive has some extra base damage on top of int mod, for example), in particular to help air blasts (honestly, I'd like to just give up agile or something on these to make them d6 anyways - agile doesn't do a ton if you're doing strike>overflow then gather move strike on alternating rounds and such)

The other issue is that the scaling of blasting effects (and base damage, depending on which one) is pretty bad. It should also be noted that Megavolt can still be used as a long range cantrip for 10d4 as much as you like (and Gigavolt is silly) and Inventor does get the option to spend a class feat at 14 to guarantee a second use (and still has the chance to have more uses, even if it's only 20%).

The high end of reusable blasting in combat is probably Dragon Breath, since at level 20 a Draconic/Wyrmblessed Sorcerer can throw that out three times every fight (assuming time for refocus) for 19d6 (iirc - 5d6, +2d6 per level). Technically, overflows can be used more each fight. As a practical concern, how many fights have a call for AoE blasting still after three of those go off? And they fire off faster than overflows can because they're fewer actions. Once you get to more mopping up remaining mooks/fighting a boss, the value of AoE spells is much lower, likely for those AoE impulses.

The value of overflow impulses being reusable endlessly decreases over time basically I think, as at higher levels a lot of classes start getting to use big flashy things more often per fight, and martials start getting some freely reusable AoE at 16 or 18 (Weapon Inventor for instance gets a 30' whirlwind attack at 18, Monk can get stuff as early as 14... not even counting Ki Blast at 6, etc)

If we have to drop something for a d6, I'd drop agile. The class encourages mixing blasts with other impulses, so agile doesn't actually do a lot for it. There's a place for a blast that's all about hitting a bunch, but not without some kind of class damage booster to go with it...

The other thing is "great, you killed the mooks, now what" if you're invested in big AoEs.

The AoEs that really make spellcasters shine are the ones that throw out conditions. Fireball has it's place, but usually you're keeping that as one option of many, for when you have a fight with a bunch of targets because catching 3-4 things in it brings the total damage dealt way up.

I am of the opinion that any character should be able to answer "what do I do about flying enemies" by 4th or 5th level, yes. But you don't need to have 100' of ranged attack for that. Shortbows are a common answer and have a mere 60' range increment. Other weapons are even shorter.

Of course, part of this is the option of "I prepare to strike" so you can make your attack as it swoops in once it gets inside your first increment.

Yeah, I don't think it's hard to call the blasts clearly weak because as you note - the class doesn't get the usual feature of martial classes to tack on damage to strikes.

Now, if the intent is that strikes are filler between impulses, that might work out. But uh... impulses would need to hit harder for me to feel good about that, because "spend 3 actions for the damage of a cantrip" isn't great.

No, a kineticist's strikes are more or less strictly worse than any other martial except Champion and Monk because they don't get any baked in damage boost features.

And Champion is deliberate on that because they're defensively focused (and very good at it). Monk is also high on defense and has Flurry of Blows, which isn't a direct damage boost but the action economy of it can be.

Kekkres wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

dmerceless wrote:

There's no need to compromise, the class is literally just weak. Making it "compromise" in this state would be like someone who's hungry and thirsty having to sell their water to buy food.

You can straight up increase the power budget by a lot and it would still be just alright. Not even super strong.

That is an opinion I do not necessarily share.

ok, as written right now, what are the kineticists strengths? what is it actually good at doing in any way that stands out. I quite like the non-overload non blast impulses, and chain blast is crazy if you have 5 enemies close together but basically everything else it can do strikes me as notably sub par

An out of the gate switch hitter with flexible support options that is currently marred with a clunky overflow mechanic.

But I don't necessarily see their damage problematic. Their action economy with overflow is less than fun though.

If they were to get a damage buff I hope it's not more then con to damage. And/or removal of overflow and instead getting focus points. Medium armor or some other way to help out level 1 strength kineticist would be nice as well.

Maybe we can get all this for free, maybe not and we have to give something up. I don't know. But overflow is a very specific design choice and there is reason for it other than making people mad. Even if it isn't the best designed choice to achieve the goal.

Switch hitter with flexible support options? Allow me to introduce you to the Investigator (finesse melee weapon and a bow and you're equally good at melee and ranged). Take Alchemical or Forensic methodology and you've got valuable support options.

Switch hitter isn't something unique or attractive to me. That investigator is going to outperform the kineticist easily in single target damage. (Alternatively, precision rangers work nicely for that by stacking up buffs that don't care about weapon type). If "switch hitter" is the best the class can offer than mechanically it's DoA.

I think it's safe to say that an overflow impulse should always outdamage a comparable cantrip in their current state due to requiring more actions.

How close they get to focus spells is debatable, since focus spells are more limited use at lower levels than high (this... doesn't always matter, depending on the focus spell, since they cover a broad range of uses, but in terms of pure blasts)

Well, there's not really any single-target nuke impulses, and your "strikes" are bad compared to other martials.

Overflow needs to compete with 2-blast routines and Chain Blasts and I don't even know if it's worth using most overflows instead of Chain Blasts.

graystone wrote:

Thaago wrote:

... wouldn't any of the other better kiting classes be a bigger problem? The ones doing more than d4 damage?

You can get 100' out of a longbow.

Right, so a Ranger is going to have a 200 foot range at level 4, attacking two times in one action, using d8 deadly d10 with an extra d8 damage on the round if either hit, with an attack stat that starts at 18 instead of 16.

Or a crossbow character with the damage boosting feats is going to also have 120 range, and while the reload makes them not keep up with bows they certainly beat out a d4 weapon.

Plus the accuracy difference from key stats means that IF other kiters are forced into their second range increment, they are at -1 to the kineticist to hit; thats a penalty, but their higher base damage probably still wins out.

Hunt Prey ignores the penalty for second range increment, so rangers with a longbow have 200' range at level 1.

I think I mostly agree, though I would note that the high end for focus spells is actually a hair behind actual spell slots (Dragon Breath is the gold standard there I think, with 5d6+2d6 heighten it's a single d6 behind Fireball). But for the action cost of a 3-action overload it's a tough call. I might peg that as comparable to strong focus spells while 2+1 is on the mid-range ones. Level and scaling matter too.

I also think the action economy hurts more for one-off blast impulses compared to if you're doing something with longer term effects, or that's sustainable (not that this saves the atrocious damage of some things like Ignite the Sun - frankly that should also have a fort save against blind involved!)

Magus and Summoner can generally be considered martials with spellcasting imo. They both get full martial proficiency progression on their strikes and have the usual innate damage boosters of martials (arcane cascade/spellstrike, boost eidolon, etc).

As printed in the playtest PDF, Kineticist is worse at being a martial and doesn't bring enough "spellcaster" to make up for it. The lack of a martial damage boost feature and not getting expert proficiency until 7 are glaring there.

I think there's a real question of whether this class should get legendary class DC to handle the impulses. Something to consider.

But generally speaking, overflow is brutal on action costs for what you get.

As to damage - impulses should deal damage somewhere between cantrips and focus spells. Cantrips are already a bit weak (I mean, usually) because they're balanced by spell slots for going nova (or are picked up as backup options on martials, etc). Focus spells are fairly reusable, and classes can pick up improved refocusing to be able to unload two and eventually three focus spells every fight.

Now, there's some wide variety in how good focus spells are... but the high end is "technically not as strong as Fireball" when you look at stuff like Dragon Breath or Elemental Wrath that are running Heightened (+1):+2d6 damage. And it's important to remember that these are just two-action spells a sorcerer or whoever can reload between fights pretty easily.

With the current form of overflow, I think lower level impulses need to be around 50% more damage than cantrips to be on par (because 50% more actions), maybe a bit less. And high end ones are often 4 actions total, compared to 2 for focus spell nukes for significantly less damage (for comparison, at 18, you're looking at 3 rounds for 180 damage for 3x Dragon Breath in 6 actions, or 8 actions for 2x Shattered Mountain for... 100 damage.) There's a real issue that it feels like they don't compare well to things casters get to fling around freely.

Oh god, yeah. Melee elemental blasts absolutely should not trigger AoO. That's a major issue.

My main concerns right now are damage output (air blasts, impulses in general) and action economy (ow three action impulses plus an action to gather element again to do anything else).

I like a lot of the utility impulses, to be clear. I'm just concerned about the damage ones.

I think the point about wizards throwing level 3 spells out for better results is important. Two level 3 fireballs takes 4 actions, you spend 4 total actions on All Shall End In Flames. Technically, the wizard expended resources. A level 18 wizard does not have a significant opportunity cost to fire off those fireballs, and could probably have just used a scroll of 4th level fireball for 8d6 instead for fewer actions and a relatively small amount of gold at that level.

While these obviously can't stack up to 9th level spells, I'm concerned about them effectively eating up two turns of combat (you'll probably fit a strike or stride in the second round after gathering element again?).

Considering that strong focus spell users at 18 can reload all three points at once (and have possibly extra points once/day from various sources), I think these need to be compared against that. Twice the actions of a focus spell for a fraction of the effect is not great, and the reusability of focus spells means you can't make much of an argument for that limiting the impulses... A sorcerer at 18 can drop three dragon breaths every fight for 17d6 in an AoE each (59.5 damage average each, nearly 180 total). It will take them six actions over three rounds to unload that.

In the same time frame, a kineticist can do two level 18 impulses. Shattered mountain gets 9d10, averaging 49.5 damage each, for a bit under 100 damage (the persistent damage field is nice, but since it ends on reuse...) and using 8 actions instead of 6. You'll probably eat an action or two from stuff in the area while they try to escape, which is nice. This is also the most favorable example - I think this one's possibly close to acceptable if viewed as a one-shot battle opening move, but then... you're stuck without anything nearly comparable for output. Hurtling Rockfall is 33 damage for three actions, for instance.

Now, granted, the action economy improves drastically at 19. But... that's level 19, and it doesn't save the lower level impulses. (Also of note - quickened doesn't stack iirc? So if you already had Haste up this isn't actually helping much at all)

Basically, I think that the real issue here is the action economy? Maybe have a cooldown between overflows (standard 1d4? Something else?) that you can spend actions to circumvent. (Or maybe this is where we make the CON link that's mostly missing from the class)

I think it's definitely odd that a fire blast works underwater with just that -5 damage penalty at range, but any other ranged blast just automatically misses

Definitely should be addressed in final book.

I love the names on the level 18 impulses. I'm not sold on all of them being desirable to actually use offhand. But the names are a win.

Yes, we all know the witch is an underpowered class. No this doesn't mean we aren't going to have fun with it because it's still packed with thematic stuff to build around.

Has anyone done the math on risky reload?

The math is very simple - if you hit X% of the time, risky reload on average saves you X% of an action to use. It saves an action with a chance of having to pay it back.

Good feat, the main issue it has is that there's other useful shot feats you can take (Alchemical Shot for instance).

Although some feats feel very bad still - Shattering Shot has issues since bombs aren't all balanced on impact damage (it does 0 damage ever with acid flasks, for instance), and it should probably do more damage for the costs involved.

But as to guns? I feel they're mostly only slightly better than crossbows, which were already situational. Reload 1 remains a steeper cost than the weapon math accounts for basically. Fine on simple crossbows, but martial guns probably should hit slightly harder than they do (or have slightly more in traits given, etc).

I also dislike that Sniper, alone of all the Ways, requires you to use a specific exploration activity to benefit from, even just for the drawing your weapon part.

Combination weapons I feel are slightly underpowered for two reasons - first they're almost all MAD, requiring different stats to hit with each mode. Second, they almost all have one mode be like 1d4. This makes them unappealing compared to other options (like the reinforced stock). Gold savings on runes almost feels like the only thing they offer, and that's disappointing, since thematically I really want to use that Gun Sword.

But at least they're not the mess that is Inventor's Dual Form Weapon feat. That one's a personal pet peeve as the transforming weapon is such a great concept and the feat is so bad (it's straight nerfed from the playtest version that already felt too weak... and I think the nerf outright broke it to boot).

This story really captures the spirit of the class I think. Very nice!

Are we allowed to headcanon the head cannon into being sanctioned?

One minor note on Horizon Thunder Sphere - it does outscale Shocking Grasp on damage eventually (10.5+7/spell level versus 13+6.5/level) against enemies who don't meet the metal conditions. (Also, the half damage at range on a miss on the 3-action version is nice)

Edit: On Force Fang, it's worth noting that it's a conflux spell that does not involve a strike. Which means you can recharge your spellstrike and then use it without MAP on the same turn. While the later buffing conflux spells can also do that, none of the melee study conflux spells do, so it's the earliest you can get that benefit.

Lost Omens: Arcadia
Lost Omens: Tian Xia

I think these are pretty self-explanatory. G&G gave some nice lore on Arcadia, but these are both fairly ripe to expand on I think?

Esoteric Talents:
Class archetypes, skill feats, and maybe one new class. Just go in on variants of classes (Synthesist summoner gets a home, but this also allows for things like the old shadowblade fighter built around a shape-changing weapon, etc). More skill feats to flesh things out - I feel a lot of skills are narrow and lacking options (medicine is so easy to default into for a reason - let's see more for traditions than just better knowledge checks. Give survival a feat to try and endure conditions, etc.) Not entirely sure what I'd do for a new class here, but Kineticist is what I'd stick in if I could (or something else themed around the flows of energy and directing them, rather than more nuanced spells).

The problem is that once you lose the reach, it doesn't actually have any properties that stand out from other, similarly reachless weapons.

"Extra damage when you charge" sounds good... but the lance is already doing less damage because it's a reach weapon. The bonus ends up pretty much just getting you back to zero once you take away Reach.

Without reach a longsword gets the same average damage while adding the option of using slashing damage. The bastard sword offers the Two-hand d12 property, which beats lance 2h for d8 by a ton.

Losing reach while mounted is silly and needs to be dropped, because it just makes reach weapons pointless - you're universally paying at least one die increment for reach, and a horse takes it away without making up for it.

Agh, the suffering of waiting for the next part resumes!

Combination weapons are thematically cool but I agree on them being too conservative.

Most of them have anemic damage dice on at least one mode. Most of them suffer from needing STR to hit in melee and DEX at range, which is costly.

In a pure stats situation, the explosive dogslicer is the best, but it doesn't have a lot of shooting range (but it's 1d6 in both modes and uses dex to hit either way at least).

Gun sword is 1d8 either mode and has a respectable 50ft range increment... except that hitting with it in melee requires STR, which is a limiting factor.

It's pretty well known that a lot of the witch hex cantrips need help.

Not sure there's any way to save Wilding Word though.

So no problems getting knocked out when the eidolon went down? Were you in groups where the eidolon wasn't the main target or fighting against weaker enemies? No problems with critical hits?

I played a dragon eidolon. The eidolon is a fairly soft target. When it gets knocked down, it takes you both out of the fight which kind of sucked both mechanically and thematically.

Dragon breath weapon is about on par with the barbarian breath weapon, but weaker than the sorcerer breath weapon focus point ability given the 1d4 rounds limitation since a sorcerer can blow through its focus spells.

I was working up a psychopomp eidolon healer, but we never got that campaign off the ground.

It feels very wonky, especially compared to the Magus which seems really well done.

Eidolons are just as durable as any of the medium armor types. Same AC (-1 until level 5 for str spreads), plenty of HP, and Summoner has a shield cantrip for them (It's in every tradition, you have no excuse). As a bonus, if you go down, the body drops safely in the back line.

Now, if an enemy is allowed to reach the summoner themselves there can be issues. But that's something you can work around... and a summoner is still more durable than any full spellcaster (because more HP).

Anything that drops an eidolon would probably have dropped a ranger or a rogue or a... etc.

I do have to ask, why holiday22 in '21?

Forensic Investigator is an amazing healer. Take Assurance Medicine and Expert Medicine at 2 and you have guaranteed successes. You can easily rack up all the basic medicine feats fast and you can battle medicine everyone once an hour.

Add Medic Dedication for more nonsense.

Themetricsystem wrote:

Be careful, there is no such thing as negligible bulk for sprites so your ammo stores are going to count against you're already super tiny bulk limitations.

True but your mount can carry spare ammo, and it is neglible there. Surely a Gunslinger Sprite has to have saddle bags on the Corgi.

Your ammo is just going to be L for the set of 10 (or 5 for some weapons) instead of -. It's not a huge deal, that's what arrows already are.

Also worth noting that it's offset by halving the bulk of larger items. Your 1 bulk armor becomes L, for instance.

Can also ask party members to tote some of it, considering it's negligible bulk for them if you throw extra sacks of ammo in their backpack.

kodra wrote:

Not sure if this warrants Errata but you might want to indicate how Expert Overdrive (and other class feats like this) impact Critical Successes as well as Successes. If I have an 18 int and am level 3, does Crit Overdrive give me +5 and Success gives me +3?

Core Rulebook, General Rules, p. 443 wrote:

You may need to calculate a fraction of a value, like halving damage. Always round down unless otherwise specified. For example, if a spell deals 7 damage and a creature takes half damage from it, that creature takes 3 damage.

This is part of the Core general rules, not a rule specific to damage but does include it. You round down unless otherwise specified. E.g., Cantrip level tells you to round up.

I think you're missing how Expert Overdrive is written:

The intent of this, I feel, is clearly to increase it by +1 period, whether it's a success or critical success. A more literal reading applies it only to a success, resulting in +4 or +3, but that's silly, since the final upgrade is +3 bonus damage on Legendary Overdrive, and you could end up getting more damage on success than critical success then, which... yeah.

Well, if we're getting into lore, magic is magic, the division into divine, arcane, etc. is an illusion (at least per Jatembe, but I'd like to think he knows what he's talking about. And halcyon magic does reflect that)

Which actually does tie back to Thaumaturge in that they work outside of the traditional structure. They don't have the benefit of well defined spells, but neither do they have the restrictions.

Actually, a 20th level feat that them pull a Wish-equivalent once a day via CHA roll might be interesting in that vein (they can force of will the effect of any spell without actually knowing it - they just know what they want to have happen and muddle through)

I'm glad to see my biggest concerns (underpowered amps, no benefit for thaumaturges who were well prepared) are being addressed!

You can take special precautions against special senses, explained here, but it requires you know ahead of time that the target has said sense. The feat Foil Senses allows you to always be taking special precautions.

There also has to actually be a way to do that. There isn't much you can do about something like lifesense even if you do know it's there, absent there being some very specific spell or the like.

I'd argue sound-absorbing materials don't work against echolocation, much the way light-absorbing materials aren't going to stop me from seeing where you are by the giant black spot.

Yeah, Rogue should have just been "All simple weapons and all finesse or agile martial weapons", which would automatically have added everything relevant.

Wizards of course, have the baggage of the class... but frankly could have just been "all simple" to make it easier.