Quick question: what kind of poison do Ettercaps bite with? Better yet, what kind of damage does it target? All entries just seem to say poison and frequency and saves.
So my partner and I have finally gotten around to making a Pathfinder group and I have more or less decided on rolling up a Fighter who uses a Fauchard as their primary weapon. I will not be taking Polearm Master, because it has become apparent to me, that wearing a spiked gauntlet more or less has the same effect as the Steadfast Pike ability (i.e. the ability to threaten adjacent).
Anywho, the archetype I'm likely going for is the Lore Warden (I apologize the link is to the d20SRD, but I couldn't find the bloody thing on the PRD) because free Combat Expertise at level 2, plus the bonus skills, their bonuses to combat maneuvers, plus a bunch of nifty other stuff. All for just giving up medium/heavy armor.
Now, as we all know, reach fighters have to do the '5 foot' dance to keep enemies in range of the reach weapon, meaning at the least the feat Nimble Moves is essential.
So I looked for something that somehow grants Nimble Moves and stumbled upon the Flowing Monk archetype, which gets it as a bonus feat in lieu of some of the other monk feats. But they also get that kinda cool reposition ability, and at second level they also get that unbalancing counter.
So here's my dilemma...is it worth dipping two levels into monk to grab that stuff? If so, when would I do it? My main concern is that the 'bonus' abilities I'd get from the monk would lose their usefulness rather quickly as their DC is dependent on my monk level. So far, my tentative build looks something like this:
So I'm getting back into Pathfinder hopefully this Sunday and I'm strongly considering rolling up a reach weapon fighter (fauchard, stats are still tbd). While skimming through the various archetypes, I stumbled upon the Dervish of Dawn fighter archetype.
Obviously, as a reach weapon fighter I am going to be doing the '5 ft step' dance, so I'm looking for some ways to minimize the problems posed by difficult terrain. This of course leads to Nimble Moves as a feat, acquiring all these extra feats which meh. Can do because lotta feats to burn, but would rather save 'em if I can. Enter the Dervish of Dawn.
Specifically, I have two questions about this archetype, and I do apologize if they've been answered already. First, the srd entry begins with this:
SRD (emphasis added by me) wrote:
No enemy is as feared as the dervishes of dawn. While dervishes can be clerics, paladins, or rangers, zealous fighters join their ranks as well. These spinning warriors prefer light or no armor and wield scimitars with devastating consequences, moving swiftly over the treacherous desert sands to attack with lightning-fast strikes.
They maneuver quickly among their enemies, relying on their speed and their skill to see them through the battle.
Which implies the Dervish of Dawn must use light armor, and a scimitar. However, nothing about the actual archetype mechanics prohibit using other armors or weaponry -- they still get fighter weapon and armor proficiencies, and none of their abilities say 'while wearing/wielding' on them.
Basically, the point I'm getting to is this: must a Dervish of Dawn wield only a scimitar? Or can they wield any weapon they choose?
As a follow-up, I'm also curious about the ability below:
SRD wrote:
Desert Stride (Ex)
At 7th level, a dervish can move through 10 feet of difficult terrain each round as if it were normal terrain. This benefit stacks with the benefits provided by the Acrobatic Steps and Nimble Moves feats.
This ability replaces Armor Training 2.
As I read it, if a character can move through 10 feet of difficult terrain each round as if it were normal terrain, it follows that the character could treat 5 feet's worth of difficult terrain as normal terrain and then 5 foot step into it, right?
Not only are you a a full caster with armor, wild shape, etc...but by level 9 when you can spontaneous cast from two domains. Furthermore, you'll likely end up with the Lightning Lord ability which lets you basically drop multiple bolts of lightning on multiple targets at the same time. Repeatedly.
Until you get access to at least level two spells, yeah pure caster Druids (by which I mean ones who give up their animal companions for domain casting) are a little weak. But they more then come into their own around level 8. My PFS Storm Druid is only level 3 and as soon as I got second level spells, my usefulness skyrocketed.
I mean...spontaneous frigging domain casting (at least with the Storm Druid archetype)! Prepare spells you think you might need (read that as 'utility spells' or something like that), and if you don't need them, you can spontaneous them out for whatever blast you have at that level! At level 9, you can spontaneous cast from two freaking domains! That's two spells you won't have to worry about preparing and they're typically blast spells so you can always have utility spells prepared and then just swap them out for a blast if you decide you don't need the utility anymore.
You also get better saves (especially since you cast of WIS anyways) then a sorc/wizard, better health then a sorc/wizard, armor, ability to cast divine spells (like the cure spells which is never a bad thing to have).
Not to mention access to some really cool spells like Entangle which is, imo, the greatest crowd control spell for lower levels. 40' radius, the entangled condition, and it can be used from hundreds of feet away...
Honestly, I can't say enough about how great I think caster Druids are.
I was just wondering...is there like a trait or something I could grab to make my Oracle's will save based on charisma instead of wisdom? Other than taking the Ancestor mystery, of course. Something like a trait; or feat or something.
I have a question about how metamagic feats work with regarding spontaneous domain casting spells.
Specifically, I'm looking at the Storm Druid archetype. As I'm sure we all know, the Druid is normally a prepared casting class. However, the Storm Druid gives up the animal companion for the ability to spontaneously cast spells from their domain (as well as some other tricks).
I'm wondering how metamagic feats work in relation to this ability to spontaneously cast a select number of spells. As I understand it, if one were a spontaneous caster and wanted to cast a metamagiced spell, they would have to sacrifice a casting of an appropriately higher level spell.
However, a prepared caster has to prepare their spells ahead of time and instead of preparing a spell of the appropriate level, they prepare a lower level spell that has been metamagiced.
So as I see it, there are three possible answers...spontaneous domain casters cannot metamagic their spontaneous spells (because the rules don't seem to outright say they can); they can prepare a metamagiced spell of appropriate level and 'lose' that casting to cast their domain spell spontaneously; or they can just prepare their spells as normal and spontaneously decree they are casting a lower level spell metamagiced by sacrificing an appropriately higher level spell they prepared as usual.
I'm inclined to think the third one makes the most sense...but I'm hardly an expert on these things (I've never really had a caster reach a point where metamagic becomes relevant...my current PFS Druid might reach that point though...eventually XP).
The buckler is the backup plan. My character is a level 3 whip bard and I won't be able to threaten with the whip until level 7. I'm wanting to use a spiked light shield in the off-hand so that I can threaten the squares around me (ineffectually, but nevertheless it is something).
The wand of Vanish is going to be spring-loaded in a wrist sheath on that hand and is my...'if I don't move I'm gonna die' escape plan. So that way, I can threaten and then if things get too intense I can poof away and position myself for optimal whipping action.
So I have a question about the wording of the of the Light Shield weapon description. It reads as follows:
PFSRD wrote:
You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.
Now the wording definitely allows one to hold an item in the off-hand with the shield. But what can one do with the item?
Basically, what I'm wondering is whether my character can use a wand in the same hand they hold a shield. I don't think a wand qualifies as a weapon...but then, what do I know?
If offensive wands qualify as weapons, it should be noted that I'm planning on using a buff wand in that hand (a wand of Vanish)...so I dunno if different rules would apply or if it is just a flat out 'nope' all around.
So I'm trying to get a feel for the viability of this build. I have really been wanting to play an Arcane Trickster for a while now and I always thought the Magus would work brilliantly as an entry to the class since it is a lot more of a martial character than the other arcane classes. And I really think I wanna give it a go at one of the local PFS groups. However, I'm rather torn about how to build it.
I've got it down to basically two possibilities: either a finesse wakizashi wielding Magus/Ninja/AT, or the strength based Katana wielding Magus/Ninja/AT.
But before we talk about those builds, let's talk about the fact that ATs suck at low levels. Which is something I'm not going to try and dispute. That said, I think that suckiness can be mitigated nicely in the case of the Magus/Ninja by getting all the non-AT levels done first, and then starting the AT at level 11. Way I figure it, the smart move is to level by going Magus 2, Ninja 1, Magus 5, Ninja 2.
Here's my reasoning: the main 'damage spell' of the Magus for the majority of the low levels is Shocking Grasp, a first level spell. With Magical knack, my caster level progression increases even when I take the Ninja levels so no loss in damage output there. Plus I gain 2d6s of sneak when I'm in flank/they are denied their Dex (and the proficiency in whatever main weapon I end up using). The only thing this costs me is access to the number of spells and when I gain access to higher level spells. Which isn't necessarily crippling, if one plays smart (which I intend to do).
What's more, and this is why I'm really leaning towards the strength build, at Magus 7 I can cast in Medium Armor without penalty. That means, mithral breastplate which is pretty sick. What's more, I can two-hand that Katana when the situation calls for it, or I can keep the off-hand free and deal spell damage with spell-combat.
The finesse build, by contrast, is going to have a higher AC at lower levels which is pretty big. However, they don't really get anything from the medium armor proficiency and they can't two-hand a wakizashi. What I do like is that it opens up the Spire Defender option so I can take proficiency with the whip and deliver touch spells with 15' reach. Not as a 'main attack' feature, but as a tactically useful ability. However, I'd give up spell recall which would definitely be a huge help to my gimped spellcasting though the ability to +5 a few choice skills that would be useful to a build like this is also pretty nice.
Anyways, opinions? Are either of these actually viable? If so, which one is the more viable? Or should I just give up and roll my pure martial Ranger Zen Archer?
So I'm sitting here thinking about versatile martial builds and I recall reading Treantmonk's switch hitter ranger build back in the day. However, I am rather more fond of the two-bladed sword then I am of two handed weapons and so I came up with this little concept which I'd love some critique on.
In essence, the character will be a high STR martial character taking TWF as his Ranger combat style. I'm thinking a stat block like this to start:
20 points, Half-Elf, Ranger
STR 17
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 08
The non-combat style feats will likely be stuff like rend, double slice, combat reflexes, weapon focus, improved crit...the normal stuff one would expect a melee character to take to increase damage potential with the two-bladed sword.
Now, to get the 'switch hitter' part of things, I am considering grabbing up to 10 levels of Zen Archer Monk for the free archery feats that bypass the DEX pre-reqs (notably, improved precise shot and many shot). Again, the focus of the build is to do the whole melee thing but be at least semi-competent with the bow.
I'd likely put the hunter's bond to my companions since I'd really gimp the leveling of an animal companion if I didn't go full ranger; and I'd likely grab the Skirmisher archetype again, because there's no point in having gimped spellcasting. Also, the Skirmisher abilities seem like they might work nicely with some of the monk ki abilities.
Does this seem like it'd work? I still end up with a pretty respectable 17 BAB; I get plenty of feats and a boatload of versatility.
Also, random follow up about taking multiple archetypes: if one takes an archetype that changes a class ability, could one also take an archetype that replaces that class ability?
For example, if I wanted to take Zen Archer Monk but also wanted to be a Sensei...could that be done? Zen Archer changes the rules of FoB so that it works only with the bow; but the Sensei gives up FoB entirely for their bard-like ability. Would such a build be permissible? Or because both are dealing with FoB at all, they can't stack?
Incidentally, I'm aware that it would defeat the point of my build if I did that...it just occurred to me randomly as I was thinking about stuff.
If you don't threaten with the weapon, you do not get an attack of opportunity with it. You do not need combat reflexes until you have the feat that lets whips threaten. You can get that feat at +5 bab if I remember correctly.
Well, the bard build started fighter so I have two feats which I used to grab Weapon Finesse and Combat Reflexes. I would have grabbed something more directly whip related, but they all require proficiency in the whip which I won't have until level 2 when I take my first bard level. Other candidates would have been bard stuff, but I can't take those until I have a level in bard either.
Nevertheless...is the threatening and AoO build the way to go then? The only reason I hesitate over doing this is really because of Serpent's Lash which seems like a brilliant feat at lower levels, but somewhat underwhelming later on. Hence the earlier I get it, I'll get more use out of it. Making extra AoOs at reach, by contrast, is one of those things which is always useful and hence it would still make sense to take as a feat at later levels as well as earlier levels.
Yeah, that bit you bolded is basically the part that is at issue.
What does it mean to use a weapon you're not proficient in (scorpion whip) as a weapon you are proficient in (whip)? Does that mean the scorpion whip now takes on all the properties of a whip -- that is, the lethal weapon is now non-lethal, is a disarming, reach, and tripping weapon? Can you only use it to do things a whip can do? Does it now do 1d3 bludgeoning damage instead of 1d4 slashing? Does it no longer count as a light weapon?
The biggest issue is that the scorpion whip is not a reach weapon -- that is, the thing physically isn't 15' long and never can be. As was pointed out in the thread I linked to, that means it would actually be impossible to use the scorpion whip as a reach weapon. Suppose, for the sake of argument, the entry for the dagger read something like this:
If you are proficient with the halberd, you can use a dagger as a halberd.
It would be absurd to think that a dagger can physically do the same things that a halberd can do -- there's no way it would make sense that a tiny dagger could threaten the same area a halberd could threaten. A dagger is maybe a foot long; a halberd is well over six. The same is arguably true of the scorpion whip -- a scorpion whip is, say, 5' long whereas a whip is 15' long. How can the former hope to have the same reach as the latter?
That said, it is never made explicit anywhere in the rules exactly what that bolded bit means.
My point is merely this: if you do plan on using the scorpion whip, make sure your GM has read the entry and agrees with your interpretation of it because he may have a different interpretation.
...the issue is that a scorpion whip may not actually be capable of being used as a whip at all. Meaning it wouldn't have the 15' reach, wouldn't be a disarm weapon, wouldn't be a trip weapon. It would basically be a really terrible dagger.
As for a d3...you could just roll a d6 and divide by two.
@Darkflame - An interesting build. However, I don't think it works. For starters, you'd need Weapon Focus (whip) before you can take Whip Mastery.
Also, as you can see here, whether or not you can actually use the scorpion whip as a whip is entirely up to each individual GM's discretion. So before you commit yourself to using one, make sure you're getting something that actually works as a whip instead of just a 1d4x2 slashing weapon.
Nevertheless, I take it you think that I should get Improved Whip Mastery and Combat Reflexes as quick as I can then, right?
@thegreenteagamer - We do presently have a rogue, but I rather suspect he'll be dropping out sometime soonish. I do intend to do a lot of tripping so of the Improved/Greater Combat maneuvers, Trip is the one I'm going for. My question is should I go for that ASAP at the expense of threatening with the whip (up to 10') and getting AoOs from Combat Reflexes?
And as to dipping fighter, whip builds are really feat intensive and that's why I'm dipping fighter. 20th level bard is really underwhelming, imo. I get a save or suck performance, but no progression on any other bardic performance/ability. I think I'd get something from Jack of all Trades at 19 or something, but two bonus feats seems to trump that -- especially if I can use those feats to grab Lingering Performance and Discordant Voice.
@Hayato - I know I'll fall behind with the casting and abilities...that said, it isn't anything I consider to be crippling if one is tactical with how they use their abilities. The focus of this build is the versatility and (probably) trip combat maneuver. Spells are gravy, and not why I'm rolling up the class. Performance progression basically stops at 18 for the stuff that really interests me; only other thing I gain from the bonus bard levels is, again, a save or suck and a few more performances. I don't like the former, and the latter can be mostly mitigated by using Lingering Performance in an intelligent fashion.
While I concede I am somewhat new to tabletop...how often does combat last longer than 10 rounds? The most I've seen is like 8 rounds...but that's because of party incompetence more than anything else.
So I'm in a PFS group that's meeting on Sunday and I've been wanting to play a whip character for a while. I'm torn between two builds and I was hoping to get some opinions about which would be better suited towards PFS play.
The first is a finesse whip Bard taking two levels of Fighter (lore warden) for feats and HP and stuff. I'd start Lore Warden for extra health and feat. Level two would be Bard, and level three will be Fighter so I can get Combat Expertise. Race would be Musetouched Aasimar for the bonuses to CHA and DEX.
I really like the versatility of the bard class and the bardic performances are almost always useful. I also love the versatile performance ability of the Bards...basically, I like the bard because I can always do something even if it is merely maintaining a performance and giving everyone else bonuses to hits and damage. However, the build ends up being less than optimal for combat as it takes a lot of feats to really do everything the whip can do.
The second build is an Elf Spire Defender Magus because the ability to deliver touch spells at 15' reach through spellstrike is just too tempting to pass up. Like the bard, I get Combat Expertise free and I also get dodge, though I lose the ability to wear armor. However, I'm thinking of taking a level of Fighter (Cad or Lore Warden) for the armor proficiency.
Obviously, this build would end up being a lot more combat effective. Again, spellstrike + 15' reach weapon = win. I'd end up with more feats, and a much more offensive spell list. However, to make the stats do what I want, I have to really dump CHA and I really dislike doing stuff like that. I also lose the great versatility of the bard -- I'd be useless in any actual 'diplomacy' situation; and there's always the possibility of running into guys that are basically immune to whip style combat (though, I'd also have an Elven Curve blade as a backup weapon if I ever do have to hack and slash my way through the world).
So that's the question: Bard or Magus? My current leaning is towards Bard...but I know there'll be moments in my campaigns where that spellstrike and Magus spell list would be invaluable.
Follow ups: in either case, what should be the priority of a whip build in terms of feats (i.e. the whip mastery line, improved trip line, serpent's lash, etc)?
And: If you think Magus would be more useful, would it be better to go pure Magus or splash a level or two of fighter or something?
So to use the Scorpion Whip which is permissible in PFS gameplay to whippy things without taking penalties, I have to take both proficiencies?
As a follow-up, how does that work with things like Weapon Focus and the whip combat related feats? Suppose I take Weapon Focus (whip). Does that mean I now have a +1 to the attacks I make with the Scorpion Whip as well?
And what about Whip Mastery (as a token example) which reads:
PFSRD wrote:
You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with a whip. You can deal lethal damage with a whip, although you can still deal nonlethal damage when you want. Further, you can deal damage with a whip despite a creature’s armor bonus or natural armor bonus.
Does that work with a Scorpion Whip? After all, I can use a scorpion whip "as a whip." But simply because a thing can be used as another thing, it does not mean it is said other thing.
Thanks for that, Grick. And if only this wasn't a PFS character, my issue would be resolved...but this is a PFS character. So can I still use the Adventurer's Armory scorpion whip?
Nothing in the AA errata speaks to the scorpion whip, as I see it, which means the entry for it in the 2011 AA is presumably the same as the one listed in my 2010 edition. And since the scorpion whip is not one of the explicit exception cases mentioned in the PFS Additional Resources...it seems to me like that would make it legal for play.
Alright. I know there have been several threads about this but most of the ones that are actually relevant seem to be over a year old. What's more, they never come to any kind of final ruling on the issue. So I'm hoping that in that year there has been some kind of definite answer given to my question.
What do I need to do to use a scorpion whip to trip opponents without taking any penalties?
Here's the the SRD about the scorpion whip:
PFSRD wrote:
It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
Weapon Feature(s): performance (plus disarm, reach, and trip if you are proficient with whip.)
The bolded part is the bit that confuses me because I see two ways of reading that sentence.
On the one hand, that implies that if I'm proficient with just whips (and not scorpion whips), I can use a scorpion whip as a whip. Put another way, I am proficient at using the scorpion whip to do whippy things like tripping, disarming, and reaching. I could not use it to do a normal attack, or performance without taking penalties because I do not have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Whip).
On the other hand, the other way to read that would be to say with only the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Whip), I can only use the scorpion whip as a 1d4 slashing performance weapon. Put another way, I am proficient with using the scorpion whip as a weapon but not as a whip. I can only do the disarming, tripping, and reaching if I have the additional proficiency in the normal whip.
Both of these seem equally plausible to me because in either case having the whip proficiency seems to entail some special talents which can work as stand alone talents (like in the first interpretation) or 'bonus' talents (like in the second).
I'm leaning slightly towards the second interpretation because when in doubt I always assume against the player; but the first does makes perfect sense to me.
So I ask you lot: if I want to use the scorpion whip to do whippy things (disarming, tripping, reaching) without penalties, what proficiency/proficiencies do I have to take?
Thank you all for the comments. It has been quite helpful. I may just end up foregoing any kind of non-simple melee weapon then and just take Zen Archer levels to get the feats quicker.
So I've joined a PFS group that meets up on Sundays at a local game shop in Toronto and I'm thinking of rolling up an Archer Inquisitor with the Feather subdomain. At this time, I am also planning on splashing two levels of monk (either Sohei or Zen Archer) for feats, evasion, and the wisdom mod counting as armor and other stuff depending on which of the two monks I end up splashing with.
The question I'm fretting about is which race should I choose? I've narrowed it down to either the Garuda-blooded Aasimar or the Tengu.
In the case of the Tengu...I really like that swordtrained ability considering the Inquisitor is sorely lacking in the decent melee weapons department. Meaning right off the bat I can wield either a greatsword or Elven curve blade should I ever find myself in melee combat. However, I end up with weaker stats thanks to their -2 racial to CON.
In the case of the Aasimar...well, stats are better and darkvision is always a plus. However, I don't get my greatsword or curve blade (at least not right away). This is partially resolved if I take Sohei monk levels and get the greatsword proficiency that way. However, my build is going to be DEX focused so a weapon I can use with finesse would be better (like the curve blade). Yeah, I'd have to blow a feat on finesse, but it seems like it would be worth it.
I dunno...I guess my first question is how much, if at all, should I care about a melee weapon?
My current line of thinking is to go the Aasimar route and Sohei for proficiency at level 2.
I feel I should point out that Sohei isn't on the list simply for the martial proficiency...I like that I get Handle Animal as a class skill (since I'm getting a companion from my domain); I really like the Devoted Guardian ability; and I like that I get Mounted Combat feats for free (since I get a companion at -3, I figure best bet was a mount of some kind...Roc or Direbat or something).
Zen Archer is on the list because its feats are directly related to my Inquisitor's play style allow me more feats to spend on other things as I get the basic archery feats for free. That said, there is little else of interest in only going two levels of Zen Archer.
Anyways...suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Subject pretty much says it...I'm rolling up a character who is basically going to be a raging Storm Druid who flies around dropping lightning bolts on the heads of people. The character is an Aasimar and I have taken the alternate racial trait to have a fly speed with poor maneuverability.
Here's my question: is there anything that can be done to increase that maneuverability and/or fly speed that isn't Wild Shape dependent? The only thing I've stumbled upon is the Angelic Wings feat line for the Aasimar. However, I believe that would only increase the maneuverability to average where I was hoping for something even better (at least good).
I'm posting this here on behalf of our GM. We're looking to start up a weekly Pathfinder game on Wednesdays (either late afternoon, early evening). We have a GM, and three confirmed players and we're looking for one or two more to balance out the party. We will be running the Carrion Crown AP.
The sessions will take place at Jon's (one of the players) apartment which is about five minutes walk from the Bramalea bus terminal (Bramalea is basically Brampton). What else...
Oh, it'll be a 20 point buy, 2 traits, one of which has to be a campaign trait. All Paizo material is permissible. Non-Paizo is case-by-case and up to the GM's discretion.
The party make up so far:
Me -- a 'switch hitter' Ranger.
Jon -- a Harrower (will go Oracle or Sorcerer for entry depending on what is lacking)
Peter -- a combat Rogue.
and then our GM.
If you're keen, please feel free to PM me or reply to this thread. I promise to check it at least once a day until we find our player or we abandon the game.
Anyways, I eagerly await decisions. I'm still in the process of rewriting the stories of my characters...my new job is leaving me more exhausted then I'd initially thought it would. It shouldn't affect my availability to post regular stuff (i.e. one or two paragraphs describing actions and thoughts/dialogue). It is just that having to write all of that up in an artistic couple of pages takes a bit longer.
I very much like the idea of a druid/zen archer. That said, I may end up houseruling/nerfing zen archer to some degree. Is this a deal breaker for you?
Not at all. I should point out that I would no longer be going Zen Archer. The build I have in mind is going to be almost exclusively a spell caster who ideally would go into the Green Faith Acolyte. But that depends on whether you'd be willing to have a Druid grove appear somewhere in the campaign so that Moony can make the necessary challenges to fully advance.
I can build up the Druid/Zen Archer, however, if that's what tickles your pickle. I'm also happy enough to take the nerf, depending on what it is. Basically, there's only one reason I'm grabbing Zen Archer and that's to get my bow attacks off WIS so that I can, largely, dump every other stat without much consequence to the character's overall effectiveness. Since I'd cast off WIS and hit off WIS, Moony should definitely be a viable character for the group.
Also, the character would likely be Vanaras, not a Tiefling which means I may have to tweak the back story somewhat (though, Vanaras being uncommon could leave Moony with the same social inexperience as the Tiefling version; as well as the family issues [if you'd want to keep them]). Regarding nerfing the Vanaras (if that's an issue) my reply for this is similar to the Aasimar and Tiefling below.
Feral wrote:
Same for assimar and tiefling. I don't have a problem with the thematically but they are undeniably more powerful than core races. If you're committed to them, they will be nerfed.
Depends on the nerfing. Basically, the primary reason I grabbed those races was their stats coincide with what I want my character to do (bonuses to CHA and DEX). A secondary concern is darkvision which is always helpful, but that can be grabbed even if I went Half-Elf from the alternate racial traits (assuming that too is permitted, of course).
Feral wrote:
I like Cag's abridged history. The story of the engineered soldier learning how to be human (or in this case, elf) is a good one. How do you foresee Cag's emotional development working out as the story progresses? How will he handle growing into (at least some level) of heroism?
This depends largely on the group dynamics. I see him being emotionally distant, at first; cold, indifferent, quite possibly paranoid. He will be unaccustomed to kindness and charity and will likely consider such things to be traps.
How he develops...it really is hard to say. If I were to go through and read the AP, I could get a better idea of major dramatic points and then I could give you a better answer about what each would signify for Cag, but then there's no sense to playing through the AP. And I don't want to layout some elaborate schema of how Cag will develop only to find it wholly incompatible with the 'themes' and 'tones' of the AP, because then Cag'd just feel artificial.
What I can say with relative confidence, however, is that Cag will never shift very far from wherever he starts on the alignment scale (it would be either LN or LE; he is, loosely, a church assassin but by choice). He'll never be Superman running around solving every NPC's wholly insignificant problem. I like morally ambiguous characters and those who do good for the sake of good are...uninteresting to me. So while Cag may hesitate about killing indiscriminately 'because they said so'; he will still be the kind of character who goes in and does what needs doing.
I'm also playing with the idea of Cag taking the monk vow of silence for purely RP reasons; though I worry that may take away from why Cag is cold and distant to the others.
ADDENDUM: I have updated the Eris alias with something more directly related to the SD campaign. The story is written on the assumption he is a Half-Elf, but the same story runs if he's Aasimar or Tiefling (as both are basically half-breeds anyway).
I'd be keen to run an AP. I've been itching to run through Kingmaker (KM), Second Darkness (SD), and/or Carrion Crown (CC).
Character mechanics:
I have a different character in mind for each AP so it really depends. Generally, I prefer 'hybrid' and 'tactical' characters so the characters would likely all be something like that.
KM, I'll likely roll up a Druid that intends on going for the Green Faith Acolyte PRC. Something like Amoonrann Stormheart (one of my aliases that attempted to run a failed KM game [we didn't get very far]) except I'll swap out the race for either the Vanaras (pending approval, of course) or one of the core races (likely Human). Storm Druid archetype, and then I *may* splash into a level of Sohei Monk for the wisdom armor and martial proficiency depending on how my roll develops in the party. Given the prereqs for the Green Faith Acolyte, however, I'd need to know that there is a Druid grove I can at least contact and make attempts to progress the level of Great Druid.
SD, I have one of my favourite characters who fits the campaign perfectly. The character is Eris Kallisti (also one of my aliases). He's a Bard/Fighter (Lore Warden). Basically, a Jack Harkness type of character and total manslut. I'll likely swap out the race from the Tiefling to either the Azata-Blooded Aasimar (again, pending approval) or a Half-Elf (which is really the way I envision the character). Eris is a Jack of all Trades who will focus moreso on combat with either the bow or the whip, depending on party mechanics and how the character develops.
For CC, I'm keen to run my take on the Inquisitor class. The character will ideally be Vanaras, but barring that I'll likely make him an Elf, or Human. Essentially, the character is a Monk/Rogue (five levels max of rogue at endgame). Exactly what kind of monk is still up in the air, either the Flowing Monk or Master of Many Styles. And the rogue will likely be a straight rogue.
Backstories:
Oh mai this could take a while and I'll post them as I finish them. For now, my alias for Eris Kallisti is the only mildly complete one, so feel free to check it out.
I can, however, offer the basics of each character here:
Amoonrann: word of the expedition into the reclaiming the Stolen Lands reached Amoonrann's grove and Amoonrann was dispatched to assist in their efforts for some kind of Druidy reason or another (ensure that balance is maintained in the reclaimed lands, for example). However, this depends on how much 'liberty' we're allowed to take with character backstory in terms of bringing in new institutions and so forth.
Moony's description: Moony is tall for a Vanaras, standing at just under 6' tall. Here fur is a pale gray, almost silver, which clashes starkly with her golden eyes. Moony is overall slender, but she shows some muscle-definition which 'bulks her up' a bit. She wears her hair in long, thick, dreadlocks that reach down her back to just below her hips. The hair is ornately decorated with various 'natural' ornaments including a branch from her grove's eldest tree which reaches to the sky; and several wooden rings at various points on her hair that are painted gold. On particularly windy days, her hair will blow about making a distinct rattling sound as the wooden ornaments connect with one another.
Moony's most distinctive trait, however, is that she has gone to great lengths to dye her hair dark brown. This is distinctive because for most Vanaras, their hair is the same colour as their fur.
Eris: Eris is the product of a noblewoman's affair with an Azata and, when he was born, his father tried to have him killed. Eris was taken from noble estate to a temple of Calistria where he spent most of his childhood. The temple, essentially, doubled as a brothel and growing up, Eris spent his time among the church 'workers' learning several tricks of the trade as he worked. Eventually, a rival brothel raided the temple and killed or captured most of the workers; Eris was among those captured and he was forced into sexual servitude for years. Eventually, Eris snapped when a client pushed him too far and Eris killed the man and fled his homeland. Eventually, he found his way to Riddleport where he has spent the rest his time working as a freelance prostitute. He is only now settling into his life, having largely forgotten the reasons why he fled in the first place.
Description: The most distinctive part about Eris is that he is undeniably attractive; he just seems to be built in such a way that he is appealing to anyone that sets their eyes upon him. He is moderately well-toned and defined giving him an aura of masculinity, but he has hips and 'sway to his hips' that is distinctly feminine. He almost always has a sly smile on his face; not something overtly mocking or sinister, but something that always suggests he knows more about what's going on then he may be letting on. What betrays him, however, are his eyes; a pale violet -- but they are eyes that are far too old for him. They are the eyes of someone who has seen great suffering in their time; the eyes of someone who is merely going through the motions.
Other things of note: his hair is of average length and largely unkempt and has a brilliant golden shine to it. His back, however, is riddled with scars and burns that didn't heal properly left over from days long-gone. Were it not for those scars, Eris would truly be an untarnished beauty.
The Monk/Rogue: I haven't decided on a name for this character yet...so I will call him Cag for now. His general backstory, however, is that he is the product of, basically, a selective breeding program at a temple of Asmodeus. His parents were forcibly mated together to maximize the genetic probability of a perfect assassin. Almost from birth, Cag was raised in a grueling environment of survival of the fittest where everyday he would have to defend himself from one lethal attack or another. Cag always survived. He learned to be the most devious and sneaky of the bunch, preferring to strike when others least expected it. All the while, of course, Cag was indoctrinated into the ways of Asmodeus. The end result, of course, was a genetically pure and unquestioning killing machine.
One of his first assignments brought him to Ustalav and he happened to save a man's life. Quite by accident; for Cag was after the men who were assaulting the elderly gentlemen. Were it not for that, Cag would have been quite content to let the man die. Upon returning to his temple, Cag got word the man had died and that Cag had been requested to return and take part in the funeral proceedings. Exactly why Cag agreed to go is somewhat of a mystery; but what was even more a mystery is why his handlers at the temple permitted him to go. Cag was on edge: something wasn't right here, but he didn't know what. All he could do, however, was act normally and prepare himself for the inevitable 'surprise' that awaited him.
Description: His general description is like most elves: tall and slender. His hair is average length and raven black and his eyes are a vibrant green. The most notable fact about Cag is the intricate tattoo that covers the majority of his body. While his face remains bare, from the neck downward Cag's body is an intricate series of runes meaning lord only knows what.
As to my PBP history...on these forums, sadly, my history is less than great. I've been in two campaigns that fizzled out before we got too far into them (a KM and a SD campaign). I'm currently in a Way of the Wicked campaign with the alias Treize Seischiro, but it is moving...sluggishly and I'm looking for something more my speed.
That would assume they were saying 'weapon' in a strict game mechanic definition. 'Weapon' is also a term used loosely for pretty much anything used to cause harm, which a spell used offensively would absolutely count as, and use d4 dice for sneak attack damage.
By that reasoning, however, the Trickster capstone ability is utterly useless. Consider the actual entry on SA:
The SRD wrote:
...The rogue's attack deals extra damage (called "precision damage") anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
Attacks are things that require a roll to hit, yes? Hence the standing rule that anything that requires an attack roll can do SA under the proper conditions. That is how it works under mechanics.
But now we can apply your 'loose definition' strategy to say that an attack is anything that is intending to bring about harm to another character. A wizard that fires of a magic missile is intending to harm their target, thus they are attacking their target and, therefore, if they have even a level in rogue they should be entitled to SA damage on their magic missiles.
But here we side with the mechanics and say an attack requires an attack roll; and things that require an attack roll are weapons. Martial, ranged, ray, and touch. These are all weapons. A chair can be weapon, but to use it as such it must be attacked with. Likewise for swords, bows, and the other things: they are not weapons on their own, until they are attacked with.
As far as I'm concerned, if the thing does not require an attack roll, it isn't being used as a weapon. Spells (some) do not require attack rolls, therefore they aren't weapons.
The writing for the Knife Master is explicit about weapons and thus, it should be read to be strictly about weapons.
'But the fluff makes sense that spells get d4s on the grounds they aren't knives!'
Now whose being literal XP
I grant the point that it makes sense that in terms of all weapons: martial, ranged, ray, touch...it makes sense to go with d4s unless it is on the knife master list. Because all of these are trainable, at least conceptually. By spending so much time mastering knife SAs, the knife master didn't rain as hard with everything else and so doesn't know how to direct those things properly towards the squishy bits. That makes sense.
Spells, like fireball, simply cannot be trained to target the squishy bits. Instead, they just do their damage to everything in their field of fire. The Arcane Trickster has everything in that field of fire taking SA damage (if they are flat-footed); but even though that damage is precision damage, it isn't damage that I can picture being made more or less effective by training. A wizard simply cannot direct their fireballs to target exclusively the squishy bits of those in the AoE. Without that kind of relevant training fluff, it makes no sense to me that they 'didn't train as hard therefore less damage'.
They didn't train as hard because the training is irrelevant! A fireball still explodes catching everything in its wake. That cannot be made more or less precise with training.
LazarX wrote:
The Arcane Trickster ability you're referencing is in a class of abilities that I call Unique Exceptions. They are special exceptions to the rules that really can't be used as a foundation or model for other class abilties. What the AT does happens because it's an AT using a spell in a particular AT way in a restricted set of instances. The model is so restricted you really can't apply it elsewhere.
I understand that I'm looking at a very specific case, that's why this issue is coming up. But in being a special exception to these rules, what does that mean exactly? What does an AT using a spell in a particular AT way mean in this case, do they get the d4s or d6s on spells?
What's more, the Knife Master himself seems to be unique in their ability to deal d8s and d4s of SA...a special exception to the rule that really can't be used as a foundation or model for other class abilities. What the KM does happens because it's a KM using...and so on.
As I said, I accept the ruling that spells are d4s...I'm just trying to understand why.
See, I don't like that treatment either because it seems absurd (logically...not the common use of the word absurd).
If a spell only functions like a specific weapon when the spell effect says it does, what kind of weapon is a spell the rest of the time? That is, what kind of weapon is a fireball? The descriptor doesn't specify a weapon type: it isn't slashing, piercing, bludgeoning, it isn't a sword, an axe, a bow, a mace...if what you say is true...well, what the Hell kind of weapon are those non-descript weapons known as spells?
I'm probably over analyzing it and that's why I'm seeing this absurdity...but I cannot exactly unsee it.
@Malag: That does seem to be the consensus, and I've accepted it. I was simply responding to some of the residual issues that came up in consideration of the issues.
I'm just rather surprised that the publisher's 'intent' carries so much weight, but that's a point far too general and off-topic to really address here.
Also @Roberta Yang: As a follow up, if you're trying to make me realize that sticking to weapon talk in the base SA entry would make the Surprise Spells ability impossible on the grounds that a spell is not a weapon, that won't work.
Why?
Because the Surprise Spells explicitly says you can add sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the target is flat-footed. So even if the only way SA normally works is with weapon talk, the AT is changing the scope of that to include spell talk.
Surprise Spells applies exclusively to spells, it says nothing of weapons. Hence my confusion over the matter and why I sought the...wise and (evidently) trollish council of the paizo forums.
@Roberta Yang: SAs do precision damage...and the base Rogue gets +1d6/odd level. So where you get normal Rogues getting d4s from I have no idea...
Perhaps you mean the AT specifically? But that's also wrong...because they get their sneak at +1d6/even level and it stacks with SA from all other sources.
@Kazaan: If a 10th level Arcane Trickster happens upon a room full of baddies and manages to catch the all flat-footed (i.e. the trickster stealths in and is unnoticed, and then the trickster initiates combat), they can deal sneak attack damage on their fire ball.
And if by spells you include stuff like a ray or touch attack: basically, its the same rules as any other kind of sneak attack. If the target is flat-footed or flanked, and the attack roll hits, you would deal sneak attack damage on top of the base spell damage. Only difference is, anyone with SA can SA with a ray or touch attack. Only an AT can SA with a spell that doesn't require an attack roll.
@Roberta Yang: I like how you ignored the part of my OP where I was speaking specifically about spells being used in tandem with the Arcane Trickster's Surprise Spells ability which reads:
The SRD wrote:
At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
Note the bolded part that pretty much explicitly says you add SA to ANY spell that deals damage...meaning those ones you don't have to roll an attack for...meaning fireball and magic missile.
@Roberta Yang: I'm going to assume that you didn't intend to come as condescending in your post as it came off to me and therefore spare you my many witty retorts.
'Intention' is a terrible thing to speculate about, hence why I'm asking here. For all I know, all that weapon talk explicitly means weapons, weapons, and only weapons and it was phrased that way deliberately. Not so that someone could try and 'break the game' but because it makes no sense to limit direct damage spells that way.
My thinking here is like this: someone may well have to train pretty hard to master how to use a dagger to target the squishiest bits, time which could have been used to train with another weapon and therefore, it makes sense that one deals more damage with the dagger than another weapon. Touch attacks and rays also seem to fall under this kind of training: you can aim where you're touching your victim, and where you're aiming your ray.
Direct damage spells, however, require no such training by their very nature. A mage does not say to the magic missiles 'target that individual's heart!'; they cast the spell and the missles depart towards their target. The same reasoning holds for a fireball -- a mage does not say 'explode here and focus your damage on their sensitive bits!' they simply cast the spell and the damage is done wherever it is done. They cannot suffer the same problem of 'learning how to target properly' that seems to apply in the martial case.
This isn't simply a matter of rules lawyering and trying to max out my character; I'm happy enough with my concept one way or another. I just want to know what actually is the case.
The idea behind this build is to have a spell-slinging melee striker that can get +2 keen weapons and dual-wield 'em for combat while still being able to pew spells at things that need pewing. The big question mark I have concerns the Knife Master and, specifically, the sneak stab supplement. The description reads:
The SRD wrote:
A knife master focuses her ability to deal sneak attack damage with daggers and similar weapons to such a degree that she can deal more sneak attack damage with those weapons at the expense of sneak attacks with other weapons. When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger, she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. For sneak attacks with all other weapons, she uses d4s instead of d6s.
I added the bold here because this is what I hope to get clarified: do spells like magic missle or fireball that do not require an attack roll count as weapons in this case? If not, then wouldn't the Arcane Trickster's Surprise Spells ability apply the regular d6s of damage to flat-footed opponents?
I mean I know a ray counts as a weapon (if I can take weapon focus: ray, it is a self-evident proposition that a ray is a weapon XP) and a touch attack seems to treat one's hands as a weapon, so that also makes sense. But a spell is a spell, and not strictly speaking a weapon, it seems to me. And the descriptor of the archetype points to 'weapon' explicitly and not 'source of damage' or something similar to include non-weapon based damage sources.
Oh, I wasn't complaining. Not at all. I just find it odd that we have not one, but two bards given their reputation of being utterly useless. I, however, happen to adore the class for their sheer versatility.
To that end, given we essentially have two encyclopedias and face of the party types...we should probably coordinate where we put our skill points so that we get everything covered nicely.
