This whole debacle has me way stressed right before Christmas, so I'm going to hide the thread for now, and come back on Wed or Thurs, hopefully in a better frame of mind.

Also,

My style and gaming background is the GM and the players working together to build a story and world, and while that's mostly ben the case in this game, this encounter is coming across as the GM vs the players with the GM trying everything he can to win.

I think my biggest frustration is that, after pointing out how difficult Winnow was to hit, Ray admitted that's not usually how he stats his encounters, but since this wasn't supposed to be a fight, he wasn't going to adjust the numbers.

Ie, what was said was acknowledge, but ultimately ignored because well, we screwed up by attacking what should have been an ally.

Ah, okay. I never paid much attention to the Synthesist because it's been banned in literally every game I've ever even considered applying to.

Now I know why. As I said, I'm just going to sit this out. I adamantly will not run away. I refuse to quit a combat because the GM didn't want us to fight the NPC, so he made him OP.

Either Magnius dies here, and I quit the game, or we win somehow.

This has got to be hands down one of the absolute worst encounters I've ever had the severe displeasure of being involved in.

I don't even want to continue the fight, even if Ray decided to nerf Winnow.

Summoner gets +9 BAB at 12th level....

Huh, I *never* knew that. Somehow I missed that section, and I've looked up CMD many, many times.

Also, Winnow's AC should be a 33, as at 12th level, a synthesist summoner gets Greater Shielded Meld.

So, now I can only hit him on a 19+.

Great encounter...

Deflection and dodge do not add to CMD, unless those are specific house rules that I believe you never told us about.

CMD= 10 + BAB + Str + Dex + any size modifier. Plus any special bonuses to just CMD.

As I said in my above post, but realize it may have not have come across clearly:

I actually do not mind us still being in Cheliax, as there's such an incredible amount of awesome plot and intrigue just within the nation itself.

While the original point of the campaign was to go forth and subvert other countries, I would be okay with just sticking in Cheliax for the 'remainder' of the game. Not that I don't want to pursue the initial goals as well, but the Empire of Devils is such a rich setting, I wouldn't be too terribly disappointed if we opted to stay 'home' as it were.

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Regarding Winnow. His AC being so high isn't the sole problem. There are ways around that.

However, his Combat Maneuver Defense also being that high is really bad. I'm guessing his eidolon must be seriously jacking up his Str/Dex because otherwise, I see no way his CMB could possibly be a 31. Magnius has an 18, meaning Winnow's is 13 points higher than his.

Let's say he's 12th level. That puts his BAB at at +9, so that's 19 right there.

Meaning he needs to be getting a +12 from Str and/or Dex. Which would a be a 22 in each. Which isn't impossible, but seems a little unlikely that his eidolon would have two decently high stats like that.

This encounter is pretty much a train wreck, despite you not intending us to fight Winnow. PCs messing up GM plans is one of the founding aspects of D&D.

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I really don't think leveling us to 9th level is going to greatly break the game.

Azlain is the only one getting access to teleport at this level. Assuming he opts to learn the spell(and I think it's at least a semi safe bet he will), the most he can cast it is 3x per day, for 900 miles a casting.

Which, is a lot to be sure, but I do not believe it's overly game breaking. Also, I'm not entirely sure we'll be spam casting teleport, blinking all over the Inner Sea.

One thing ya gotta remember, *especially* for this type of game, is that we the PCs are going to be working with you, the GM, to create an awesome story. You need to trust us to not abuse things, and play the game in a way both you and us will enjoy.

Also, if you do decide to level us to 9, there's no reason you need to then level us to 10 any time soon.

In fact, depending how the game goes, that could be held off till after our fist successful subversion. Or late in that process.

Well, for starters,

I *expect* that when the GM is told he's wrong about something, that he actually listens to his players, and doesn't bull forward assuming he's right. Which is exactly what Ray did earlier with the Blade Barrier situation. He utterly refused to listen to me, event when I went and got others' opinions. He just decided he was right, they were all wrong, and that's that.

It's kinda hard to not be a tad hostile after that.

It also doesn't help when the GM throws a CR 16 creature at us, even if it was nerfed. We got freakin lucky it was banished. Otherwise, it's likely we would all be dead, or near enough...

Other issues:

Forever ago, we had a plan to sell all our loot when we got to Westcrown. Somehow, that's gotten pushed aside/forgotten about, despite the fact that I bring it up every so often.

I would feel a little bit better about this combat if I had been able to upgrade some of my gear, as when I first built Magnius, it wasn't really for combat at all. He's able to mostly hold his own thanks to his class features, but his spells and magic items aren't really all that useful for combat.

I also feel like we've lost our way as far as the overall goals of this game goes.

Initially, we were supposed to gain some notoriety, get summoned before the Queen, and then go out and start turning other nations into allies/subservient states to Cheliax.

However, we've been 'stuck' in country for quite some time now, dealing with all sorts of political intrigue within the Empire of Devils.

And, honestly, that's okay. I recently read the new Cheliax campaign setting book, and we could absolutely spend *years* both in and out of game doing all sorts of awesome stuff within the borders.

Lastly, it does kinda suck we're still stuck at level 8. I know leveling isn't all there is to gaming, and it's not super important for me to enjoy a game. However, leveling up is a nice reward, and helps mitigate other 'issues'. It doesn't help that my next level would actually help me a fair amount in combat, as I'm taking my 4th level in Investigator, which gets me Studied Combat and Studied Strike, as well as +1 increase to my BAB....

Why do you think I attempted to trip him?

Apparently, his CMD is identical to his AC, at a 31. Which is rather surprising, but what do I know? Ray is using all sorts of rules we know nothing about, so maybe he has a way to jack up his CMD...

This is why I am so frustrated. A 24 on a trip attempt seemed like it had a really good chance to knock him down, thus imposing a -4 penalty to his AC, but nope, that wasn't the case.

Aside from Azlain's Tangleburn bags, I have no other way to pull off touch attacks. We never got a chance to spend all our hard earned gold...

Wait, so the creature I banished at the start of the fight wasn't Winnow's synthesized eidolon?

Nope, that was an entirely separate *bodyguard* for Winnow, that was apparently a CR 16 that Ray decided to nerf for us, after he realized we wanted to attack Winnow....

When I design an encounter, I try to make it so that there's at least a decent chance PCs can hit it, it can hit the PCs, etc.

For example, I try to make it so the most combat oriented PC needs to roll a 15, or maybe a little lower, to hit the enemy's AC. That's a rather solid chance(I suck at math, so idk the percentage, lol).

I try to do the same with the enemy's attack vs the most armored PC, even if I need to tweak/fudge numbers a bit.

Unless it's a boss fight, of course, this means the PCs have a solid chance to beat the baddie, but it also can challenge them, and *maybe* win.

I also don't create what I would hope to be a potential ally as some sort of twisted, freaky child abuser/molester. I can't think of any of my players from over my 20+ years of gaming who would be okay with that.

I totally realize there's rules and cults, and such that allow for that, and I have no problem with them existing, but that doesn't mean I want that stuff in my games. Even when I'm playing an evil PC.

There's lines people and characters don't want crossed. For both myself and Magnius, child abuse/molestation is absolutely a line crossed.

I do too, but it's obvious Ray didn't intend for that to be the case, and this is also an encounter that doesn't really do anything to further the point of the game.

At this rate, we'll leave Cheliax and begin the actual adventure some time around spring or summer.

But, as I said, I can't do anything at this point. I have by far the highest attack bonus with all my buffs up, and I still can barely hit Winnow.

So, I'll just sit this out. I don't play games to be frustrated and annoyed and unable to actually play.

A few things,

It's a general rule of thumb that if you won't allow the PCs things, you shouldn't give them to the NPCs.

Now, that doesn't include things like making use of classes or feats from sources the PC don't gain access to,

But if you ban your PCs from using the Synthesis Summoner then you probably had a really good reason, which means using it for an NPC is probably not a good idea.

Same with making NPCs gestalt when the PCs are not. It gives them more options and abilities, such as rather strong 'armor' that your semi melee focused PC can barely hit....

A CMD higher than a 24 and an AC that I can only hit on 17+??

I'm out of this combat. There's literally nothing I can do, other than pray the dice like me....

Forgot my saves!

1d20 + 6 ⇒ (3) + 6 = 9 Ref Full 30, down to 42 hp

1d20 + 10 ⇒ (11) + 10 = 21 Will

Magnius once more summons a pair of otherworldy chains, and attempts to drag Winnow down.

Casting Barbed Chains 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (14) + 9 = 23 Chain 1 trip attempt.

1d20 + 9 ⇒ (15) + 9 = 24 if the first attempt is successful, this is an attack vs a prone AC(-4), otherwise, it's a second trip attempt.

If either attack hits, he needs to make a Will save DC 15 or be shaken.

We clearly need to get Mindy a wand of Glitterdust....

As of right now, Magnius can only hit Winnow on a 17 or higher as his AC is apparently a 31. That's with all of the various bonuses.

That's a really small chance to hit him, so we need to try and debuff his AC.

Ray, after losing one too many big posts or a ton of work on a long as heck PC sheet thanks to Paizo's tomfoolery,

I have started writing up my important characters and posts in Google docs.

This is a gods send for two reasons:

1) Docs auto saves, which means there's no way to lose your work.

2) You can access them via smart phones, letting you work on them whenever. I've sometimes gotten inspiration while lying in bed, trying to fall asleep. It's nice being able to grab my phone, and add something or make an adjustment.

Now that he is standing face to face with the foul priest of the Midnight Lord, Magnius unleashes his fury over his vile acts.

1d20 + 14 ⇒ (15) + 14 = 29 for 1d8 + 4 + 1d6 + 2d6 ⇒ (2) + 4 + (6) + (2, 6) = 20 the first 6 is acid dmg

1d20 + 14 ⇒ (10) + 14 = 24 Hasted Attack for 1d8 + 4 + 1d6 + 2d6 ⇒ (3) + 4 + (3) + (1, 5) = 16 the second 3 is acid.

Total un-ajusted damage = 36

Sorry for the delay, was celebrating my grandmother's 95th bday today!!

Yeah, very busy weekend! Had some decent weather, so my mom and I put up some of the outdoor Christmas decorations, then I went to an awesome local wrestling show Sat night. Yesterday was recovery day, lol.

Ray,

Idk what to tell you. I asked on the Fans of d20PFSRD group(I even included your map), and posted the replies here. It's been 5 days(roughly) since I asked about it, and nobody has agreed with you.

If you cast Blade Barrier to target Magnius and Bogey, you have to also hit Winnow. I see nothing that prevents him from being affected by the spell.

I *believe* the bare minimum required to cast the spell is used.

1d20 + 10 ⇒ (5) + 10 = 15 Will vs blindness

Not that it matters in light of the dispel(though I guess I don't need to roll my save now), but here's my findings:

Reply: The protected ring makes a radius. So including C would also include B and M. Radius for the inside is 5'/2 cl, so he would easily have enough to do it if he can cast Blade Barrier.

Me: So, there's not a way to protect C&W, but not B&M? He seems to think he can 'hedge out' the NPCs, but attack the PCs.

Reply: As it's written, that spell wouldn't do so (to my understanding), unless he forces them back some way first.

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The radius is the 'safe space' in the middle. So, in order to protect himself and the children, Winnow also has to protect Magnius and Bogey.

There's literally no way to position the 'safe space' to only include Winnow and the children. The spell isn't able to be shaped that way.

Will Save DC?

Waiting until tomorrow, to see if there are any more replies before I post my findings.

I decided to ask others for help resolving this. As of right now, I got response. Waiting to see if anybody else agrees or contradicts him.

Another matter entirely:

<Looks at Winnow, being a gestalt summoner/priest>

<Looks at Magnius being a multiclass inquisitor/investigator>

<sobs uncontrollably>

Ray, no issues with trust.

I think I might have figured out the problem here.

I assumed Winnow was casting Blade Barrier to form a ring around himself and the children. This logically makes the most sense to me. If he did, I'm pretty sure Magnius is in the 'safe space' at the center.

*However* if he instead opted for the wall version of BB, then Magnius is indeed in the way. Such would leave him vulnerable to attacks from the other side of the Barrier however.

Aren't we all adjacent to him though? If he's in the middle square, and Yaos/kids are in the left square next to him, and Magnius is in the square to the right, how he is placing it so he only hits Magnius?

I'm in the same area as Yaos/kids.

Looking over Blade Barrier, I'm unsure if Winnow can single out Magnius.

He's right next to the shadowy one, in an adjacent square. If he's hitting Magnius, he's also hitting the kids, Yaos, the Ormyr and the Bogeyman.

Us PCs will probably survive(possibly even not taking any damage) but the kids are going to be purred.

Magnius activated Bane prior to combat starting, which I mentioned then, but forgot to reiterate as part of my attack.

It increases his weapon's bonus from a +1 weapon to a +3. Not sure if that matters or not.

Saying a quiet prayer to the king of Hell to guide his strikes Activating Judgement to gain a +2 bonus to hit, Magnius strides purposefully over and smashes Winnow on the head. I'm not sure if he's still sitting, but the image of Magnius literally braining him with his morning star is too amusing.

1d20 + 12 ⇒ (16) + 12 = 28 for 1d8 + 4 + 1d6 + 2d6 ⇒ (3) + 4 + (6) + (6, 4) = 23 the lone 6 in the middle is acid damage, if that matters.

I have had a really annoying day, all based on trying to order a laptop from Costco. I ended up speaking with *four* different costumer service people, and I still haven't gotten the order placed. I am currently beyond my limits, and need a freakin nap.

I will post my actions later tonight.

Magnius is not invisible.

Also, pretty sure flanking has nothing to do with the target seeing you. Or even the target at all.

It's based on advantageous positioning between you and an ally.

If you're still not sure, think of gaining high ground bonuses. The person you're attacking doesn't need to see you in order to receive said benefits.

Flanking? Is +2 enough for ya?

1d20 + 15 + 1d6 ⇒ (16) + 15 + (5) = 36 Stealth

Do we want to take Winnow alive for questioning? Unsure, as while he is a terrible, awful person who deserves death, Azlain and I *are* Hellknights, and it might make more sense for us to 'arrest' Winnow.

I think, however, that with Bogeyman's stealth being way higher than the Shadow's, it never sees him.

I'm not sure how that affects things, though. Does that mean it never bothers to try and spot the rest of us?

Yaos, might I suggest you cast Haste last? You're an 8th level Summoner, meaning you can affect 8 targets with your spell. There are only four PCs. Hasted minions are best minions.

Round 1, casting Shield of Faith, AC is now 24

Right before combat begins activating Bane. I assume Winnow is a human? Or that Magnius was able to figure out his race via his Local check?

1d20 + 6 ⇒ (14) + 6 = 20 Initiative

We gotta lure Winnow away from the kids. Preferably outside. We don't want him to use them against us, plus Bogey might scare them to death.

After Bogey returns and informs them of Winnow's vile practices, Magnius replies "It sounds like he has a noble child of House Oberigo. We need to rescue her, and likely eliminate Winnow. Be warned, he is similar to Yaos in his capabilities, though his power is in his shadow as opposed to the hordes our Widow friend calls forth. Also, he is some sort of priest of the Zon-Kuthon."

Bogey, possibly the Barbed Chains spell I can cast?

Sorry, still recovering from minor ear surgery on Mon. My posting in general has been sporadic at best. Also decided to finally start Castlevania on Netflix tonight :)

Will get up a post shortly.

I ended up taking out 1 point from each of Cosmology, Society, Linguistics, Stealth and Survival to put them into Local, for a +12 to that skill.

Is that fair Ray?

Can I roll society to recognize the girl as nobility, once I get within sight of her?

1d20 + 12 + 1d6 ⇒ (7) + 12 + (6) = 25 Local on Winnow

Yaos, I believe this scene is yours. I know I'm waiting on her lead.

This be Yaos scene. She's the initial connect to Winnow. Magnius will just follow her lead for right now.

1d20 + 9 + 1d6 ⇒ (18) + 9 + (6) = 33 Local on the Durzagon. Looking to figure out as much about him as possible(not just his class levels, like his whole life, lol), let me know if I should also make a Society check to supplement this info.

1d20 + 14 + 1d6 ⇒ (14) + 14 + (2) = 30 Cosmology on The Midnight Lord.

Two things:

1) I realized awhile ago that I shorted myself some skill ranks. When I had initially made Magnius, I forgot that Ray combined various skills together(ones that I would want ranks in). So, I spent them like normal, then remembered after game play began(I don't actually know when, months ago, at least) that my skills should be all different since Ray did combine some of them.

Unfortunately, for one reason or another, I forgot to mention this, but also never fully adjusted my ranks, as I didn't wanna be accused of cheating.

Anyway, I want to put ranks in Local, which was one of the ones I had initially planned on giving Magnius, but ran out when I was doing his skills wrong.

Should I just take a couple ranks out of some of my other skills?

2) I would also like to actually go and see the Lord Mayor before we fully leave the city. Not only is he Magnius' uncle, and thus would be a good RP scene for him, but Westcrown is a pretty important city overall, and having the whole group in a scene with the Mayor could be beneficial for everyone else as well.