Thank you so much, Paizo for the opportunity to tell my story and showcase my culture! It's an honor to be part of the Pathfinder community. I promise to keep applying myself to elevate my work and bring the Hispanic/Latino community more positive representation!
I'm working on a PF2 Medium homebrew class, in case you're interested :)
I still think that "I bend the universe to my will" is a very psychic-y thing to do. I can't get my head around a character that plays with the rules of reality but doesn't use spells when spellcasting is our main framework to consistently explain and employ magic. Also, that is so tied to symbolism and narratives but isn't really occult-oriented. My brain has to do some acrobatics to justify the class identity without ending up with a very niche range of distinct fantasies. Personally, I prefer the concept of a martial that knows how to deal with supernatural stuff (hence the dependence on Recall Knowledge and the ties to the four traditions). It's also much easier for me to associate that with a ton of pop culture characters.
That's another issue that I have with the class. Why would the universe make a distinction on whether you say you deal extra damage to a creature or say that something is on fire or you know something that you don't?
Hopefully, the class eschews its dependency on Recall Knowledge and focuses more on creating weaknesses rather than discovering existing ones.
Question for the interested: If I'm able to push my will upon the universe, then I should be able to use the freed slave's chain to heal an ally with the Root to Life feat, right? Because I really really believe I can do it. Also, I'd be able to use a sword as if it was an Amulet Implement because I'm the one creating patterns in the universe. I know reskinning is a thing, but what's the point of having specific symbols and meanings dictated by culture and tradition if I'm the one choosing how reality works?
My biggest problem with letting the Thaumaturge be INT based, is that if they are actually finding these secret little loop-holes, wouldn't other people be able to exploit them as well once they were learned? That is exactly what happens when you identify a weakness with Recall Knowledge, which is something this version of the Thaumaturge will do a lot.
As I said in another thread, I think the class confuses identifying patterns with creating new ones. That can have really big ramifications on the mechanics and overall feel of the class. I can identify 3 possible and valid routes (there might be more) that would affect the amount of power budget dedicated to Recall Knowledge, creating weaknesses and the kind of skills you're going to see more often: Charisma: Eschew the knowledge and preparation elements and focus more on improvisation and the force of personality. Personally, this is my least favorite, because I prefer to identify patterns instead of playing God as a martial person. Pushing your will upon the universe feels like something the Psychics usually do with their minds when manifesting thoughtforms, breaking time and space, and manipulating perceptions. Intelligence: The exact opposite of Charisma. Knowledge and preparation instead of force of personality, hence all the focus on knowledge skills, monster lore, identifying weaknesses, etc. Wisdom: A middle ground to justify knowledge with intuition and force of personality with connecting with the world (like a Druid).
I think the class confuses identifying patterns with creating new ones. That can have really big ramifications on the mechanics and overall feel of the class, like some that you have mentioned. I can identify 3 possible and valid routes that would affect the amount of power budget dedicated to Recall Knowledge, creating weaknesses and the kind of skills you're going to see more often: Charisma: Eschew the knowledge and preparation elements and focus more on improvisation and the force of personality. Intelligence: The exact opposite of Charisma. Wisdom: A middle ground to justify knowledge with intuition and force of personality with connecting with the world (like a Druid).
First of all, thank you so much Mark for responding to my post. It's very exciting when a designer/developer does an effort to clarify things, take feedback, or alleviate concerns. With that said, if the intention is to give the class a very holistic approach, I think the Thaumaturge has a ton of potential that could be explored with more clarity in the flavor texts. If I compare the number of times the class refers to occult-related elements such as symbolism, narratives, the paranormal, the tarot, etc., vs other elements normally related to the other traditions, it feels out of balance. Also, I wouldn't use the Jatembean's theory to justify the ability to draw power from all traditions, because one could take that same argument to allow Druids to cast occult spells and oracles arcane spells, which is fine by me if that's someone's cup of tea, but it makes definitions kinda wibbly-wobbly for the sake of discussion. This, unless one makes the class uncommon and ties it to Jatembe's place in the setting. Finally, and this is a preference thing, I'm not super convinced about the idea of pushing your will into reality. I'm more interested in playing a person capable of finding or learning the patterns in the universe rather than one that enforces their will in a Godlike manner just smaller. I think the idea of pushing upon reality overlaps a little bit with the Psychic's potential flavor, as it can use its mind (and charisma) to manifest thoughtforms, break time and space, and as their greatest 10th level spell says, "Alter Reality".
The main description of the class states that "You scavenge the best parts of every magical tradition". They are proficient with Arcana, Nature, Occultism, and Religion, and gain abilities with traits that correspond to different traditions. I also haven't seen any official statement that confirms them as an occult class. However, the whole class flavor and methods feel very occult, and that's why I find the class theme a little confusing. If it fully embraced its occult identity maybe it would just import elements from other traditions rather than delving into them with traits and free skills.
Ok, the training part is a good argument. However, I'd still prefer to see it as an INT or WIS-based class. Anyhow, the point of this thread is about the feel of the class' tradition. I think they're more occult than anything else.
Good thing that we created the Legendary Mesmerist: Second Edition! Holy Desna how dare you take me by surprise with my own book! But yeah, good thing we made it :P
I'm ok with the Psychic absorbing the Mesmerist. I'd just like enough material to play a full-fleshed Mesmerist without waiting until 8th level to start feeling like one.
My problem with the Charisma argument is that I find no explanation on why the Thaumaturge is able to push their will into the universe more than a Scoundrel Rogue could. They as people aren't magical, just users of magical things, so I'd prefer to leave that ability to the Psychics.
The concept of grasping historical or emotional connections and patterns in the universe sounds very occult to me, especially now that we have the explanation given in Secrets of Magic. Taken from the Secrets of Magic book:
"Occult power stems not from isolation but from connection. Peel away all the regalia, the sheet music, the chanting, the wiggling fingers, and the mystery, and what do you have? A story. [...] every object that carries even a semblance of symbolism—all strained through the myriad combination of senses we each experience. Each of these elements forms your narrative language, rooted in your thoughts and emotions. Each is a tool to create and manipulate a story." Some examples to back my point: 1. Your esoterica is literally defined as "objects with symbolic significance", and so are your implements. 2. The Esoteric Anthitesis uses the example of a chain broken to free a captive and then used to fight a tyrant. This to me is the power of symbolism or storytelling pushed into reality. 3. The Divine Disharmony feat. The idea of channeling the power of a deity through a holy symbol is something clearly divine, but grabbing two symbols from deities that hate each other and using that to frighten a creature employs power from the history between those deities, and not from the deities themselves. It's using divine objects but with occult methods. 4. The whole first page of the class screams occult to me, but it's too much text to quote it here.
I don't really get why the class is CHA-focused. I can tell it has a lot to do with knowledge, intuition, empathy, seeing the connection between all things (which is a very druid thing to do), etc. So I'd prefer to play it with INT or even WIS. I'm not very convinced about the idea of pushing your will into the universe when you don't really have magic. I'd leave that to the Psychics.
I think this iteration of the class overlaps too much with the Inquisitor, mostly because it's too martial. If I wanted someone to read the Harrow deck, perform a seance, or draw me a magical circle, I'd call Vanessa Ives (Penny Dreadful), Lorraine Warren (The Conjuring), or Jackie Chan's uncle (from the cartoon). They aren't martial at all, but they know a lot about esoterism and can solve their problems through their resourcefulness. But if I wanted to shoot an angel in the face or hunt a werewolf, I'd call Constantine (from the movie), Van Helsing, or Selene (from Underworld), and they are more inclined to be Inquisitors.
I'm kinda worried about the 8th level feat Mesmerizing Gaze. Seems to me like the Psychic is going to absorb the entire 1e Mesmerist class, and having to wait until 8th level to access their signature ability (Hypnotic Stare) doesn't feel right to me. Plus, it's gonna take a ton of unique material (tricks, stares, touch treatment...) to justify the deletion of the whole class.
I think Mage Hand needs an Amp Heightened effect. If I'm going to play a Psychic specialized in telekinesis, I would like to be able to lift big boulders and stop a truck by 20th level.
I love the Psychic, but I fear becoming a PF2 Warlock that spams the same spells every turn. Either we should be able to upgrade more than just a few psi cantrips, or we should get more spell slots for versatility.
I totally agree with the concept of choosing your ability score depending on the source of your power. I would add WIS and tie it to intuition just like INT is for calculation and CHA is for emotion, because in PF1 many psychics were fueled by reincarnation, enlightenment, or primitive instincts, and those are concepts usually related to Wisdom. Also, I'd have no problem with making the WIS drawback slightly more punishing, but not too much more. It's true that it dictates Will saves and Perception, but INT dictates your languages and skill proficiencies, so I think that balances out at least a little bit.
Unleash Psyche seems like an amazing concept to explore with this class, as it allows you to unlock the deeper layers of your mind. However, I'd like to be able to choose your Psyche at 1st level or tie it to your Consciousness, because having Focused Intent tied to your personality by default feels like the entire class has a proclivity to aggression. However, I wouldn't miss the Psyches if they came in form of feats instead of a class feature. That way I'd invest power budget on having more versatility.
Hello! So these are my initial impressions of the Psychic: 1. I totally agree with the concept of choosing your ability score depending on the source of your power. I would add WIS and tie it to intuition just like INT is for calculation and CHA is for emotion, because in PF1 many psychics were fueled by reincarnation, enlightenment, or primitive instincts, and those are concepts usually related to Wisdom. 2. Having 2 slots per level seems strange to me. I know it's supposed to be balanced out by the number of times you'll be using cantrips each day, but I don't know if that's enough to justify the nerf in options per day, especially because I don't want another Warlock spamming the same spell over and over again. I'll have to playtest to see, tho. 3. Amps to me are a nice translation from 1st Edition Phrenic Amplifications. However, limiting them to your psi cantrips (which are just a few) feels a little too restrictive to me. Also, they feel a bit redundant with metamagics, except more powerful and less versatile. It's kinda parasitic. 4. Mage Hand needs an Amp Heightened effect. If I'm going to play a Psychic specialized in telekinesis, I want to be able to lift big boulders and stop a truck by 20th level. 5. To me, Infinite Eye seems a bit all over the place in terms of thematic. You can see things from multiple angles, and also see the future, and also detect magic, and sense weaknesses... I understand the "sixth sense" element, but this Conscious Mind seems more tied to an entire magical school (divination) rather than a specific topic. 6. Unleash Psyche seems like an amazing concept to explore with this class, as it allows you to unlock the deeper layers of your mind. However, I'd like to be able to choose your Psyche at 1st level or tie it to your Consciousness, because having Focused Intent tied to your personality by default feels like the entire class has a proclivity to aggression. However, I wouldn't miss the Psyches if they came in form of feats instead of a class feature. That way I'd invest power budget on having more versatility. 7. So many good feats OMG. Unleash Dark Persona, Mantra of Discipline, Shatter Space, Become Thought, and so many others look incredibly cool. However, I'm kinda worried about Mesmerizing Gaze. Seems to me like the Psychic is going to absorb the entire 1e Mesmerist class, and having to wait until 8th level to access their signature ability (Hypnotic Stare) doesn't feel right to me. Plus, it's gonna take a ton of unique material (tricks, stares, touch treatment...) to justify the deletion of the whole class. 8. I think the class is lacking a subclass tied to their Imagination. Someone who creates thoughtform creatures, mindscapes, figments, hallucinations, etc. 9. Names like Psychic/Psyche, Unconscious Mind/Conscious Mind sound a bit too similar. I'd prefer more unique names so they're easier to differentiate. |
