So, I can totally now see what they were saying before about Thaumaturge grabbing some of the design space for inquisitor. Thematically, at least, that's definitely a thing. For those of you who like inquisitor, but who are not getting that particular itch scratched by thaumaturge, what is it about inquisitor that you crave that's missing? Is there anything that could be done to more smoothly fill in that space so that you would find it satisfying?
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Well, it doesn't have Wisdom as a key ability. Which isn't a super important part of the Inquisitor, but I do kind of wonder why it isn't the case for the Thaumaturge. Near as I can tell, all the things that tie the class to CHA thematically are from PF1. The occultist used it, as did UMD. If Resonance had stayed a thing tied to charisma, that would be something. But there's nothing in PF2 that really seems to make that connection, and both Int and Wis seem to fit better.
None of the mechanics really push the class towards being a party face either, and your skill increases will usually be dedicated to the knowledge skills, so having the charisma just feels kind of nice for being better at lower priority things. I dunno.
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There still isn't an offensive-oriented somewhat martial religious class in the game. I'm cool with there not being one in general, most of the reason I would want that is for NPCs that use different rules anyways, but Thaumaturge isn't filling that niche. I don't think it should try to either, it fills its own conceptual niche well enough without trying to jump outside and absorb the rest of the inquisitor.
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I think this iteration of the class overlaps too much with the Inquisitor, mostly because it's too martial.
If I wanted someone to read the Harrow deck, perform a seance, or draw me a magical circle, I'd call Vanessa Ives (Penny Dreadful), Lorraine Warren (The Conjuring), or Jackie Chan's uncle (from the cartoon). They aren't martial at all, but they know a lot about esoterism and can solve their problems through their resourcefulness.
But if I wanted to shoot an angel in the face or hunt a werewolf, I'd call Constantine (from the movie), Van Helsing, or Selene (from Underworld), and they are more inclined to be Inquisitors.
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Thaumaturge is great insofar as borrowing the idea of like 'monster bane' as a feature.
But IMO the Inquisitor's design space of a divinely inspired, offensively oriented martial is still underdeveloped and worth exploring.
To me this class doesn't overlap with the inquisitor much at all. Yeah they both have a feature that lets the deal extra damage to specific enemies... but PF1 Occultists and even by the end Fighters could Bane their weapons too. I don't really see that as necesssarily a cornerstone of the Inquisitor design space.
Near as I can tell, all the things that tie the class to CHA thematically are from PF1. The occultist used it, as did UMD.
The PF1 Occultist was intelligence based, only the Silksworn cared about charisma and that was in addition to intelligence.
IMO the Inquisitor's design space of a divinely inspired, offensively oriented martial is still underdeveloped and worth exploring.
Don't want to de-rail, but what about this character concept can't be achieved by taking a martial class, and a dedication (Blessed One, Cleric Dedication, Champion Dedication, etc).
I'm genuinely curious, because I actually don't really feel the lack for anything the Inquisitor could do STORY-wise if the Thaumaturge continues as is.
Seems like it captures the characters I always felt inspired the Inquisitor already, but my reference touchstones are likely different to others.
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While the Inquisitor is the class that I want to see ported into 2e the most, I think that it is totally possible to build an Inquisitor using Thaumaturge as a chassis.
IMHO, if the class was Wis based, it'd pretty much be a better way of building an Inquisitor with the current ruleset than, say the Cleric with Investigator dedication and vice versa that those that don't feel the Inquisitor has a set niche advocate for.
Would be even more viable if there was a Divine Pact feat.
The Thaumaturge pretty much summarizes the monster hunter aspect and mechanics of the 1e Inquisitor Class. Wouldn't be surprised to see the Inquisitor as a Thaumaturge Class Archetype.
Or perhaps this allows the 2e Inquisitor to have a different niche, perhaps leaning more into smiting bounded caster role.
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I think there's plenty of room for Inquisitor, Wisdom based Martial, focused around something like the Judgement mechanic rather than Bane/bonus damage.
Not to sound antagonistic or anything, but what is with so many thinking classes can't have similar abilities and themes? If that were that case we'd have only the core classes.
There's TONS of design space for Inquisitor. This isn't even the first class or thing in this game that steps into the theme of hunting enemies and finding and assailing their weak points. That's like... 3 or 4 classes already to varying levels of power. It's pretty much one of the most common things in the game.
I could build the core of a distinct Inquisitor with a monster bane style thing in like five minutes. Multiple subclass concepts included. It would actually be pretty easy because Inquisitor's 1e design is inherently very well suited to existing 2e mechanics.
And while we're at it there's also that other similar claim so I'll just tap my hand somewhat lightly yet dramatically on the table as if to emphasize a point in a debate and say Kineticist isn't doomed to being a psychic archetype just because psychic is based around spamming a magical thingy all day and has a mode that empowers them and has drawbacks. There's at least 2 other classes that are close to that design space already as well. Psychic isn't a Barbarian or Oracle subclass obviously, so Kineticist doesn't have to be locked into that either.
It is very easy to build an inquisitor right now. How one does depends on their deity and how you want to balance the spell casting vs. combat vs. investigation aspects of the character.
You could make a war priest with an investigator, rogue, or ranger archtype. You could make an investigator, ranger, or rogue with a cleric archetype. Etc.. Throw in druids for more nature oriented inquistions.
I think that cleric/detectives are a great character concept, though. There is a lot of good fiction featuring medieval versions of them-- Brother Cadfael, The Name of the Rose, Sister Fedelma. I would like to see a cleric doctrine to create a more perception and skill focused cleric.
Not to sound antagonistic or anything, but what is with so many thinking classes can't have similar abilities and themes? If that were that case we'd have only the core classes.
In a game as modular as PF2, you need to have a really strong case to be a class of your own and not am archetype. Especially because an archetype can be utilized by any of the preexisting classes. The non-core classes all work really hard to be unique, both mechanically and thematically.
Which isn't to say Inquisitor can't be a class. It also has a pretty particular theme and you could definitely build unique mechanics onto it. But there's a reason no one was clambering for the cavalier to be its own class.
In a game as modular as PF2, you need to have a really strong case to be a class of your own and not am archetype
Do you though? I mean "it could easily be an archetype/series of class feats" is something we've heard many times about the investigator, swashbuckler, gunslinger, psychic. I think the forums put a lot more emphasis on "how is this treading new ground" than the developers do.
But there's a reason no one was clambering for the cavalier to be its own class.
I mean, probably because they were pretty unpopular in PF1 too more than anything else.
Whether or not inquisitors wind up their own class, I think they could inspire a great class path for the Thaumaturge. I would like to see Find Flaws/Esoteric Antithesis opened up to do more than just create a weakness, and I look at the various judgment options as other possible things the mechanic could be doing. Add a bit of divine flavoring, and you have a character who uses the symbols and relics of their deity to inflict damage on their enemies.
I think this iteration of the class overlaps too much with the Inquisitor, mostly because it's too martial.
If I wanted someone to read the Harrow deck, perform a seance, or draw me a magical circle, I'd call Vanessa Ives (Penny Dreadful), Lorraine Warren (The Conjuring), or Jackie Chan's uncle (from the cartoon). They aren't martial at all, but they know a lot about esoterism and can solve their problems through their resourcefulness.
But if I wanted to shoot an angel in the face or hunt a werewolf, I'd call Constantine (from the movie), Van Helsing, or Selene (from Underworld), and they are more inclined to be Inquisitors.
On the other hand, the Thaumaturge is explicitly based on Constantine from the comics.