Lady Aurora's page

These are very cool. Thank you so much for sharing.

For something not nearly so cool, try picking up flower wire from a hobby store and twisting it around a pencil to shape it. It makes a neat curlicue that can be used for vine effects (much smaller and thinner than the ones shown here, of course) but appropriate size for miniatures being entangled. I've even twisted several of them together to represent octopus-like creatures.

I have 2,782 miniatures - mostly plastic prepainted with a dozen or so pewter ones. I use Plano 737 tackle boxes, Keter tool boxes, and assorted clear plastic hobby boxes with adjustable dividers. I have 4 of the Plano boxes and they work the best. The top is clear plastic and has 14 sections that you can readily see right through the cover. Then it has a deeper section under the lid that you can literally store dozens of miniatures in if you don't mind them sliding together. Then the front has three drawers with 10 long sections per drawer. And finally, it has little plastic containers with dividers that are perfect for small minis. One Plano box is just for humans - divided by class with separate sections for armored soldiers, "commoners", and females (also subdivided). The big open space under the lid I use for animals (mammals). The second Plano box is for humanoids. Elves, Dwarves, and orcs each get their own drawer. They are further subdivided by class and gender. The little boxes on the side are for gnomes and halflings. The big space under that lid is for animals (birds, reptiles, and insects). The third Plano box is for monstrous humanoids - a drawer for gnolls, lizardmen, and goblinoids. Kobolds and other small humanoids in the little side boxes. The 4th box is for undead - a drawer for skeletons, zombies, and incorporal beings. I keep my dragons in one of the Keter tool boxes because its compartments are larger. I divide them by color. I use the clear plastic hobby boxes (with handles) for everything else - one box for angels, one box for devils & demons & misc. outsiders, one for elementals, one for plant-based creatures and lycanthropes, one for flying monsters, and one for giants & giantkin. Each box is labeled with an index card that lists the contents by category and identifies which drawer or level they are in. I like this system because the boxes are easily trasportable and readily stackable. Before a gaming session, I go and pick out what I'll need for the night along with a few extras (in case of random encounter) from my walk-in closet where all the boxes are stored. I throw the current minis into a small cardboard box that my players have taken to calling "the box of doom". Then I just reach in and pull out what I need as the adventure progresses. The players are responsible for their own personal character minis so that isn't an issue except when we're just drawing up characters and starting a campaign.

The WC was good and Diamond Lake is a rich and complex setting that begs to be enjoyed. Feel free to establish all kinds of relationships with the various NPCs. There's all kinds of fun to be had in town. I wouldn't bother to encourage the PCs to make the old mining shack a headquarters since a short time later they will leave Diamond Lake behind them pretty much forever. But do establish connections with some of the townsfolk who make great recurring friends/foes.
As it has been noted in numerous other posts, the Ebon Aspect in 3 Faces of Evil is way too much. I've been playing more than 30 years and that adventure was the first TPK ever.
Others may complain that EaBK was a cakewalk. It was for my players too but it was a nice break between the meat-grinders of 3FoE and HoHR.
Others complained about the dopplegangers in HoHR but my group had a ball with them. The room with the invisible stalkers was harsh - play that carefully. I didn't have Zyrxog show up in Sodden Hold, that seemed a too obvious tip of the hand. I had fun with the open sewer search using just random passageways but one must be careful or it gets tedious pretty fast.
The intro to Celeste and Ekaym needs tweaking in CB. Orokol and Raknian make awesome recurring foes. Save the ulgustasta for the final battle in the arena for maximum affect.
aGoW needs some tweaking, especially the dragon. I really played up the horror of the devastated town and how the PCs friends and neighbors are now homeless, wounded, missing and/or dead. You need to adjust the dragon or her battle isn't as epic as it should be. Some of the tomb "guardians" are pretty lame or even nonsensical.
I adjusted the PCs interaction with Tenser in SoLS because it seemed stupid to me that he sends them running all over the place before and after the adventure. The Fountain of Fame & Folly (or whatever it was called) in Tenser's basement was great fun and probably the best part of this particular adventure for my players. I had the devils appear in between and try to regain the piece of the Rod of Seven Parts. That helped establish what an important artifact it was. You need to scale the different encounters in the Spire, especially when there are several tough-guys at once. The PCs are depleted just when they meet the fiercest opponents it has the potential for TPK.
tPoRH is heavy role-playing and can be boring for players who prefer the hack-n-slash. I served real food to my players mimicking the courses at the dinner and it was a bit hit! I also spiced up this episode by bringing in Raknian and other NPCs from previous episodes. In fact, I think the whole adventure path runs smoother when you carry NPCs from previous adventures into future ones as much as possible.
The challenges from B'Kuss were really lame - I'd advice dropping that entire interaction. The challenges at the party itself, however, were fun.
tLoLR is a good play as is, for the most part. I found play at the higher levels less fun in general. The evil titan and the numerous girallons is a surprising tough fight. Don't let the players stumble into it blind or they'll quickly get overwhelmed. The Harrowdroth is much tougher than it initially appears. The roc was a cakewalk. Darl Quethos is so cool it seems a shame to kill him. His minions were also well written.
I loved the giants and the dragons in KotR but I would suggest spending weeks in prep time. Read it thoroughly, like, a hundred times before you try to run it. Otherwise all the interesting participants become mere windrow-dressing. The troglodytes - at 18th level - why? It is a stupid waste of time to include them.
The ulgurstasta in itWF was ... (yawn). The stained glass golem was cool but needs to be run carefully. Dragotha's reveal on Lashonna's true motivations is the best part of this whole episode. My players were talking about that bit of conversation long after the whole adventure path was finished.
The Dawn of a New Age was good but at this point we were all just looking forward to ending the adventure path. Don't get me wrong - I think Age of Worms is the best adventure path ever, but playing at high levels is really draining.
Anyway, sorry this post is so long. I hope you find my advice usefull.

Personally, I didn't like how the whole climactic ending to this episode falls apart if the PCs defeat Bozal early. My PCs killed Bozal before he had the chance to release the ulgurstasta (which actually worked out okay) so I kept it in its cocoon until the final battle with Auric's band. I don't know how other people kept the final battle exciting if the ulgurstasta breaks out early. I reread the episode notes several times and couldn't come up with an exciting and plausible way to do it. I actually considered fudging things so the ulgurstasta wouldn't break free until the end but suddenly I didn't have to because the PCs dropped Bozal like a chump.

Alhaster is in hex S3-73 on the old two-piece World of Greyhawk map (across the mouth of the Artonsamay River from Radigast City). Redhand covers an area around Alhaster, roughly two hexes north and one hex east and west.

The Spire of Long Shadows is described as being 1800 miles south-south-west of Tenser's fortress (which is located in hex Y3-82); however, this would place it off the southern edge of the map. The Spire is also described as being near the city of Cauldron, which can be found in hex Y4-143. I'd therefore suggest that the Spire can be found "deep in the Amedio Jungle" somewhere to the south-east of this, perhaps in hex T4-143

Thank you so much! I got the original 4 piece Paizo maps put out in Dungeon back when I had a subscription. I remembered they were nicely updated for the adventure paths. Unfortunately, when I dug out the magazines, the maps were missing and I can't find them anywhere. I was left with the 1st edition gigantic 2 piece map and felt a bit overwhelmed. You're a life-saver. Thanks again!

Not to hi-jack this thread but the question of why the tough guys aren't handling things rather than sending the PCs to do it is a problem throughout this adventure path. That's why, with alot of discussion about EaBK on these messageboards, I don't agree with changing the Allustan scenario.
As written, Allustan supports a bunch of neophytes to investigate Whispering Cairn and Three Faces of Evil. Finding more evidence of the Ebon Triad and the coming Age of Worms, he first sends them to Blackwall Keep and then to Eligos. Both of these experts (Eligos and Allustan) eventually send the PCs to their mentor, the ultra-powerful Manzorian who ... sends the PCs to Spire of Long Shadows and then chasing after Balkarde.
When IMC, I had Allustan slink off at the first sign of battle at Blackwall Keep "Um... I'll go for reenforcements" it helped the whole storyline make a lot more sense. I had the party's wizard as an apprentice to Allustan from the beginning, establishing the original connection. Allustan's obvious cowardice at EaBK explains why he sat back and let the inexperienced PCs do all the work at Diamond Lake rather than doing it himself or at least accompanying them all along. It also explains why he is not closer to Marzena or Eligos or Manzorian; physically or socially. Each of these people have already discovered in due time that Allustan has the brains but not the spine. Allustan prefers to be a big fish in a little pond in Diamond Lake rather than be where the action is either adventuring or in the Free City. It's a disappointing but poignant moment for the PCs to recognize the person they once greatly respected and admired is actually quite flawed and pitiful. (Little bit like growing up). I "fixed" the hook to HoHR by having the PCs travel to the Free City to broker a peace deal with the Twisted Branch lizardmen. They stopped by to see Eligos (introduced by name in earlier episodes) as a bit a sidetrack, not their primary goal. They return to Diamond Lake after CB because of dragon attack, not to see Allustan. Then in aGoW, they are not surprised to find themselves in a position where they must rescue their old mentor and are, quite frankly, happy to be done dealing with him.
Explaining why Manzorian, one of the most powerful wizards in the world, doesn't accompany the PCs to SoLS was more of a challenge but ... that's another story, I guess.

I agree with Jenner. Eligos revealed everything mentioned above. Raknian's purchase of the Apostolic Scrolls was revealed through mindflayer notes.
Overall, though, I felt that Eligos revealed very little.
I really enjoyed this Adventure Path but my major complaint would be the "experts" in virtually every installment. I tried to rework these NPC/PC interactions more effectively and many of the adventure hooks that I felt were very weak as well. Still, the Path, IMO, spends too much time and energy directing the PCs from one person/place to another with little result. My players, who've been playing together for more than 20 years, had difficulty staying focused and understanding their character motivations. Every time the PCs met an "expert" the response seemed to be either "Let me get back to you on that" or "you should really go 'such a place' and talk to 'so & so'" only to get the same weak response in the next place. I had Allustan, Eligos, and Manozarian reveal as much as possible about the mechanations of the enemy and the import of the Age of Worms, gleaning what information I could from the backstory at the beginning of each adventure. Still, with all that, I don't believe any of us (the DM or the players) felt they knew too much.

I just acquired (after much ado) an old two piece map of Greyhawk from the World of Greyhawk boxed set. I wanted to reference the locations from Age of Worms on it but am somewhat puzzled. Where exactly does the Spire of Long Shadows take place (besides the obvious answer - in the Amodeo Jungle). Where is Redhand? Did I overlook Alhaster? Can some Greyhawk fan give me hex locations? I'd really appreciate that. I apologize in advance for my cluelessness.

No system is better than another, only different.

There is no reason to switch to another system if the one you have is working just fine.

Amen, brother

Forgot to mention ... I much prefer the initiative system in 2e to the mechanics of later editions. It just seems easier and more efficient to me. Now granted, as I've already admitted, I haven't actually played newer editions so maybe I'm offbase.
But the bottom line is, I haven't seen anything in 3.x or 4th ed that inspires me to abandon a system that has served me so well all these years. I understand that WotC and others need to make money and the best way to profit is to make things newer (I won't say better). But despite rabid advertizing campaigns designed to convince me and the numerous others in my group that 2e is broken and needs (or needed) a complete overhaul, I'm not buying it. Call me old-fashioned, I don't mind. I see more broken than "fixed" in newer editions (though I prefer Pathfinder's mechanics to the either 3rd or 4th).

I haven't ever stopped playing 2e since it came out. In fact, I'm proud to say I have never played any other version (except 1e in its day). I have been converting modules and adventure paths all along the way. Was an original pathfinder subscriber and only quit because I have so much more material than I can ever use.
I don't find the books confusing at all or poorly organized especially in comparison to 3e or 3.5. (I do buy the new edition books to help with conversions although I have nothing 4e).
I've heard numerous complaints over the years that 2e requires too many house rules but that is not true from my experience. I have very few house rules.
One house rule that I do have though addresses the problems with NWP (what newer editions call skills). In my game, proficiencies start at 20%. Every time a character attempts to use the skill he improves by 1% regardless if he succeeds or fails. He gets 100 xp if he succeeds or his current percentage chance with a failure. I think my system is far superior to the marketed mechanics. Why should your character be a better swimmer just because he's 10th level and I'm 3rd? Maybe I live next to a lake or have been engaged in lots of water scenarios and you've been exploring in a desert. The experience point bonuses encourage PCs to use their NWPs as much as possible, especially at low levels when chances of success are low. The new and inventive ways PCs use their skills adds great flavor and depth to the game, especially the role-playing aspects. In addition, any character has a 5% chance to succeed at any skill (even if untrained you might get lucky) and no character has better than a 95% chance of success in any skill (nobody's perfect)
I know 2e isn't everybody's cup of tea but my group has always had great fun. I think the class restrictions and other strict rules maintain a sense of variety in the game and tend to limit min-maxing. The streamlined rules make it easy to learn and easy to play, imo. Also, since I am usually the DM, I appreciate the cinematic, story-telling flow of the game versus laborious mechanical drudgery of later editions.
Go 2nd Edition!!

Please cancel my pathfinder subscription. It is with no disrespect to your products or your service that I tender my request. Thank you for all your faithful years of service.

We've been playing 20 years with the DM (me 99% of the time) keeping track of the PC's hps. It totally avoids metagaming and is more realistic. I let the players know when their characters are at half strength, down to single digits (I don't play 4e so I'm not sure about the specifics for "bloodied"). I allow PCs to learn their exact hps by succeeding at a healing check but otherwise they get a rather vague -"you're not feeling so well" or "you're feeling - 'I ain't got time to bleed!'" It works great for us and always has. The extra bookkeeping is not significant (to me anyway). I highly recommend it.

From my perspective I think your sort of missing the point. I can agree with you that trying to define whether the Romans were good or evil is a big pain in the butt and probably not worth doing.

Nonetheless I think 'good' characters should have access to some very sweet powers. Essentially its a carrot from the DM to encourage some of his players to take good characters. For the DM having at least some good characters is often a real bonus because they are easily motivated to continue with the adventure risking life and limb.

If we look at the APs, including the ones in Dungeon and continuing along with the ones done for Pathfinder, I think one will quickly note that...

Excellent post, Jeremy. I completely agree. I think adventure hooks are a DM's worst job. Even most pregenerated adventures are weak in the motivation department, IMO. Every bit of help a DM can get is worth it. Besides, I think the PCs *should* be heroic and at least somewhat virtuous. Playing mercenaries may be fun but both the DM and the players have to twist themselves in knots to explain the proper motivation to save the world much less some poor peasant girl.

Besides, I think alignment has always gotten a bad rap. I happen to really like it and am disappointed that apparently it's so unpopular that the powers that be seek to minimize it or phase it out completely. I know this issue has been discussed to death in past threads but I think alignment is less of a prison (constraining a PCs actions) and more of a ladder (to advance a PCs actions).

My rating would change based on what kind of map I'm forced to produce. I do hand-drawn outdoor maps that I like just as well as some products you buy. I'd give myself a 6 or 7 for forests, cornfields, swamps, and the like. I'd give myself about a 2 on anything else. I can make a nice map with Dunjinni but I'm so slow with it, it's almost never worth the effort (the exception being ships). I spent entire days designing and printing a full scale model of the restored miner's shack from Age of Worms that the players were using as a base. All that ink and effort later, it wasn't worth it for the use I got out of it. I think mapping, for me anyway, is just one of those sucky elements of the game. Caves or rocky mountain ledges with gradients and dramatic height differences are impossible for me to create in full scale (usable with miniatures). Mapping just stinks.

This is a shameless love post. I was happy to receive my Descent into Midnight adventure. I had intended to cancel my subscription before Second Darkness, but then ... who can resist the draw of Drow? But when my final installment arrived, I thought "*Now* I can finally cancel my subscription". After all, these things aren't cheap and I have tons of material already. I don't really *need* another adventure path but ...alas, I'm hooked again. I've always had a soft spot for adventures with Arabian flavor. Just flipping through, the art of Haiten Bhaq had caught my eye. Now not only dare I not cancel my subscription, I'm fairly drooling for the Legacy of Fire! Paizo, you've done it again. I can't wait to explore the delicious possibilities!

I had a death in the family last summer which lead to a rather chaotic six months financially. I appreciated the emails I received from Paizo informing me that some of my subscription orders couldn't be filled. But now all that's resolved. I appreciate the "pending" service you provide but I can't remember how to resubmit the orders. Specifically, I'm interested in order#978661 from July 2008 and order #1048363 from September. Can you resubmit those orders with my regular payment method please?

Accentuating the positive and downplaying or flat out obscuring the negative isn't underhanded marketing. It's just marketing. In order to sell maximum product companies would logically want consumers exposed to the maximum level of positive influence.
Only allowing positive reports from its NDA-restricted playtesters (or any playtesters, for that matter) makes perfect sense to me. I don't personally find such actions immoral or unethical.
Bribing or strong-arming reviewers is a different matter but has anyone actually accusing WOTC with this practice? I don't think so.
Now if you want to talk underhanded... I would consider their practices over on the WotC website in this department. Quickly deleting negative comments about 4E and/or, worse, banning those with dissenting opinions from the messageboards altogether just plain sucks. Sure, there are a few individuals who need censorship for their foul, offensive delivery of overblown emotional comments but they should be a rarity. Not allowing your own customers to discuss their preferences or opinions in an open forum is not just unfair ... it's poor business and, I think, reflects on the poor integrity of the company.

I think what's interesting about the *possible* 4E monster design philosophy is that it's a complete reversal of the 3.x philosophy. WOTC sold its customers that PCs and monsters needed to work under the exact same ruleset and mechanics. A big selling point was supposed to be that PCs could do anything monsters could do and vice versa. Another big selling point was these supposedly easier, more intuitive connections between HD and Con/Fort saves, AC and Dex/Ref saves, etc., etc. Now WOTC is doing a complete 180 and decreeing that the essential elements that made 3.x what it is are now glaring problems that are unneccessarily complex and restrictive.
Just interesting to me, that's all.

I will grant you that this whole hide/seek ridiculousness that WOTC is pulling is new. I think we saw a glimpse of this terrible policy when they cancelled the printed versions of Dragon & Dungeon magazines. It was like "We're chucking out this profitable and incredibly useful resource for our beloved game and replacing it with something else. This something else is cool, trust us. But we're not going to provide you with anything but the barest hints about what our mysterious 'something else' is."
After a time, they did reveal this digital initiative, but hiding it before that point was just plain stupid, IMO. It hints at no product confidence or at least terrible preparedness to play such childish games with the fanbase's emotions.
We're seeing this same cloak & dagger routine repeated for 4E. Did they learn nothing from the magazine backlash?
I don't deny that the 1999 Dragon mag articles went a long way in smoothing the road for the 2nd/3.0 conversion. They were well-written, IMO, and fairly clear about what they were doing and what it would look like. That's not my complaint. My complaint, in part, is that they initially ignored and then became beligerent about honestly expressed concerns about the traditions, the "feel", and the basic future of the game. It got so bad that they threw subtly out the window and pretty much bluntly said, "Get on board or shut up." I think I would've been much more satisfied if they had said from the beginning, "We're coming out with a new edition as a neccessary business plan. We know that it will offend some and that not all the changes we make will appeal to everyone but we'd appreciate your input and we're excited to tell you about our plans." Instead, they played this game where they presented the new edition initially as a hypothetical and while tolerating nay-sayers for a short time, essentially responded to the resistance of a new edition by a significant portion of their fanbase with "Well, this is what we're doing. Deal with it." If a whole new edition was really what their market research had lead them to, then why not showcase those studies or release the pertinent data? Simple. Because it was all about their business plan and not an interest in what might be good for the game itself. Now, in hindsight, this seems like a moot point because ultimately the introduction of 3.x accomplished both goals. It's wise to remember though, that their success in that venture was not a given at the time.
It amuses me that so many posters on this board seem to circle around to the "they're only doing this for the money" complaint. I'm sorry to offend but... wake up and smell the coffee, people! WOTC is a company like any other and though I personally think their ethics are lacking, it is not inherently evil for them to have a business plan focused on making money. I admit that back during the 2nd/3rd conversion, I didn't fully understand this concept since my emotions had me all riled up. Here's how it works (I know others have posted this same thing on this very thread but here it is again for your convenience...) WOTC makes the most money on their core books, especially the PHB. The problem with books is that they can last for the lifetime of the consumer. Revisions, errata, splatbooks, modules, upgrades, etc sell to a certain percentage but everybody engaged in this hobby is going to buy the current PHB (in theory). So the only way to rake in serious bucks is to release a NEW set of core books at regular intervals. This new set can't just have new artwork and a sprinkling of new/revised rules. That won't get every last member of the targetted audience to purchase your product. It has to be radically different, so different that a hobbiest feels compelled to purchase it or be "out of the loop".
Many people on these boards complain that many of the changes, especially to fluff, seem to be changes for the sake of change. I believe this is absolutely true. Like I said, they HAVE to make it radically different in order for people to feel compelled to buy.
The argument that the time intervals between these new editions is steadily shrinking is a valid one. Obviously, WOTC's financial situation and the strength of the hobby controls this. I'm not sure what we, as gamers, can really do about that (besides complain impotently).
In regards to comments about imagining this investment would be the last, that's all wishful thinking. I'd like diamonds and a horse but, hey, ain't gonna happen! And to the question of why we as gamers should invest hundreds/thousands of dollars into a product that will be totally reenvisioned/rereleased in less than a decade... well, it's not a great answer but... because that's the "nature of the beast" with DnD marketing. WotC might suck as a company but no other company would do it any differently.

This thread got me thinking - what is Paizo doing to make its adventures appeal to more female players?

- Female characters on the covers of Pathfinder (and not a chainmail bikini in sight).

- Major plot elements that are most applicable and fun if there is at least one female in the group (e.g. Aldern Foxglove).

- Female NPCs filling a wide variety of roles, including competent heroes/allies (Shalelu, Ameiko), notable villains (Mammy Graul, Xanesha, Nualia), and a variety of other roles (Shayliss Vinder); basically, including the whole range of roles, not just the positive ones, so that all of them are that much more believable.

- Providing a large number of named NPCs (male and female) with complex and interesting back-stories; and doing the same for locations and communities. (E.g. the "late unpleasantness" in the intro to Sandpoint - very useful in describing the game to a prospective new player). (Story depth instead of stereotypes carries over into how the players perceive everything else in the game.)

- And in general, treating men and women matter-of-factly as part of the setting, as equally likely to be in postitions of authority, rather than having women clearly be second class citizens (Calimshan) or rarely mentioned (my general impression of Greyhawk), or having powerful women always mentioned as sex-symbols in addition to being whatever else they might be (Seven Sisters)

This is an awesome post, Cintra. Well said.

I'm a woman - wait!...let me check, um...yeah, I'm a woman (whew!) and I'm not particularly insulted by the questions nor, really, by their lame answers. I am annoyed, but only mildly so, at their continued philosophy regarding female players. Like has already been stated in earlier posts, it seems odd that they aren't equally concerned about other minorities. But my opinion of WOTC's handling of this issue has long been poor. I find it insulting that they changed from using all male pronouns in the core books with their lovely little disclaimer to a confusing mix of male/female pronouns with the female overwhelming & purposefully used in typically male roles and vice versa. A male witch, a female pirate? Such obvious pandering is what I find insulting. I've played DnD pretty much from the beginning so I guess I'm not the best person to judge what it takes to draw a woman/girl into gaming in the first place; but I still find it insulting to think that changing a pronoun would suddenly cause thousands (millions?) of women to say, "Ahh, NOW I can finally play this game 'cause, you know, I've just been waiting for those female pronouns!". Now, I haven't read this Confessions book, which is fine since it wasn't marketed to me, but it seems like just another example in a long line of lame attempts to appeal to an audience that, bottomline, RPGs simply don't appeal to across a wide margin.

BTW, Last Rogue, you need to get out more...
The NFL is equally insulting in their attempts to draw in a female audience with their ever-increasing use of unqualified female on-the-field commentators (which they further emphasize by putting their name on the bottom of the tv screen everytime they utter a word) as if this is going to make a largely male-oriented game more appealing to the female audience. I should've prefaced this by saying I personally love football. I just don't need NASCAR or the NFL or WOTC, for that matter, to shameless pander to what they (wrongly) perceive are "girly" interests.

Whew! Just sat down and read all 13 pages and I'm so glad I FINALLY get to respond!
Some of my thunder was stolen by Dangerdwarf's comments as I was originally planning on commenting what short memories all you self-professed oldtimers have. Everything that is happening now is nothing new for WOTC and their evil marketing/PR department. In fact, as much as it's a bitter pill to swallow - their insulting, illogical marketing schemes have proved highly sucessful in the past and bear no evidence of reasons to be abandoned.
Let me focus for a moment on the OP and say that I, personally, have no hate for 4E nor much respect for those who can't channel their passions a bit more constructively. This is not to say that I don't share their passion for the game and for the abominable way WOTC is handling this whole situation, it's just that it needn't be repeatedly expressed in what I personally view as a childish, unproductive manner.
Now, to my point about WOTC and their lousy PR...
Probably some of the reason that I'm not a 4E hater is that my heart is still deeply scarred by the whole 2ndE/3.x debacle. I've been playing D&D since the late 70s and wasn't particularly ruffled by the transition from 1st ed. to 2nd. Part of this was probably because when 2nd ed came out the company didn't bash its valued fanbase or insult its original edition. I'm not sure what percentage of gamers abandoned the hobby with 2nd ed or continued to faithfully play 1st ed, but for me the game continued in its "traditions" and was lots more fun to play. Part of the reason that I was so offended when 3.0 was introduced was because WOTC marketed it as the *only* fun and "cool" (that lovely word) way to play. They spent 90% of their energy and focus (completely made-up statistic) insulting 2nd edition and saying what total and utter crap it was. They were, IMO, very interested in "dumbing down" the whole gaming process with their incessant claims that THAC0 and other mechanics were just too complicated for anyone to use. The direction many now decry as disappointing and computer-based was very much in motion with 3.0. WOTC had the exact same philosophy then that they are exhibiting now - this whole "let me tell you how you *should* be playing. Your way is not cool or fun. Our new-fangled way is the only *real* way to have fun and to be the versatile character that every cool person really *wants* to be. What? You say this doesn't appeal to you? Well, that's because you're stupid and old and your opinions are irrelevant. Go away!" All I wanted back then was a little respect for the traditions of the game, the mythology, the "feel" as it is so often referred to recently on these boards but all I got was scorn and derision. I, personally, don't want or need everyone to have access to magical abilities. I don't want my dwarves to be wizards or nonthieves to have thieving abilities. But the thing I found most offensive was the entire attitude of WOTC that old grognards like me were an anachranism and that anyone with a brain or any "coolness" whatsoever would never play such a broken system as 2nd ed. There were admittedly some parts of 3rd Ed that I was mildly interested in but their blatantly antagonistic marketing and philosophy made me reject the idea of joining the bandwagon. Just like the current arguers, I thought, "Why do we need a whole new edition? Why can't we just incorporate some of these sleeker mechanics without overhauling (and insulting) the system I love?" But WOTC was determined to launch 3.0 and couldn't care less if they offended significant portions of their fanbase. I thought it ludicrous that they would so insult their faithful fanbase in a bid for merely "potential" new customers. I sat back smugly and said - "This whole thing will blow up in their faces! Ha Ha! They'll be crawling back to me begging for forgiveness!". When they had to release 3.5 just to correct all the mistakes that their "cool, faster, easier, simplier, perfect" 3.0 had,I was laughing confidently. Surely, they'd abandon this whole foolish scheme and return. But... hey, you know what? They never did. I sat and watched my favorite RPG go on nicely without me. In fact, their whole crazy scheme seemed to work out for them in the end. They *did* draw back many players who had left the hobby! They *did* draw in a significant portion of new, younger players who had never been a part of the older systems so beloved to me! They did do just fine without my hard-earned dollar to support them. In fact, they thrived without me. I was sure they were killing my beloved hobby but instead they had people proclaiming them heroic for actually *saving* it!
Now, I'm proud to say that I still play 2nd edition exclusively; but I also recognize I am in an obvious minority. In fact, the first time I ever posted on these boards was in a thread debating the pro's & con's of 3rd edition vs. 2nd. Players who loved 3.x would scream about how broken and lousy 2ndE was and how stubborn and stupid we were not to at least "give it a chance" and me and my ilk screamed back that change for the sake of change was pointless and damaging to the game as a whole. Ultimately, not much came of it. The vast majority happily play 3.5 (at least for now) and an ever-shrinking minority cling desperately to earlier editions. I skipped the entire 3.0 version and only within the past two years did I purchase the newest editions of the 3.5 PHB and DMG (strictly for reference). My group even did a trial run of 3.5 (we played 2 sessions) but agreed we liked our old faithful version better. I have seen the bulk of my copatriots eventually cave to the "dark side", which incidentally doesn't seem quite so "dark" anymore. Those who swore they'd never convert to 3.x have now been playing the latest version for years and happily so. This too shall pass.
And that's pretty much my thoughts on this. Both to the haters and those puzzled by their passion - it'll all smooth out after a while.
I don't personally have much use for WOTC and their tactics so I try my best to minimize the amount of income that finds its way to their door but I don't blame them for wanting to make money or for appealing to a younger audience (always the bread-n-butter for their product, as much as we grognards refuse to acknowledge) or for wanting to horn in on the unknown billions of dollar industry that is WOW and similar video games. I think they'll probably be fairly successful in this venture. I don't think it's the "death of DnD" just a different path for a hobby supported by a wide variety of consumers.
So, to those of you sitting back waiting for 4.x to crash and burn and for WOTC to humbly seek you out ... I wouldn't hold my breath. It's been 8 years and I haven't seen a glimmer of that train yet.

Thanks for your email. Yes, please just send the PDF of the sold-out Pathfinder #2. Yes, I realize all my back issues add up to a hefty expense but I'm willing to pay it and the funds are available (yay, tax refund!) on my credit card.

I had a problem with my credit card for several of my Pathfinder and GameMastery Modules. They've been backing up for months, stuck in Pending. Everytime an order couldn't go through I was kindly informed by Paizo (Thanks,you guys are great!). But my internet company dropped its service in November and I just got the internet back up this month (there's a class action suit pending against the internet company) so I didn't know what to do about correcting my credit card with you guys. Anyway, a few days ago I managed to log on here and correct the problem with my credit card. I got an e-mail today saying the latest issue has been shipped. My question is ... what about all the back issues that still read "Pending"? Why wasn't everything shipped at once? And does this mean my back issues will be just trickling in piecemeal or ...(gasp!) not at all?
Please tell me what to do to ensure my back issues arrive (and please don't tell me I have to go track down the emails and respond individually to each order).

When I first heard this movie was being animated, I cringed. I'm still not convinced after the commercial success of the LOTR trilogy that support couldn't be raised for a live-action Dragonlance movie. In fact, as far as plot and storyline, I should think Dragonlance would sell better to the nongaming community. Hasbro managed to turn something cartoon based (Transformers) into a cool, visually appealing movie so why can't their stepchild Wizards of the Coast do the same thing with literary characters. Oh yeah, I forgot, we're talking Wizards of the Coast here, unchallenged experts at taking a good thing and totally screwing it up!
(deep breath) Well, before I rant on some tangent I'll get back to my point...Dragonlance the movie. I tried to squash my fears and my further feelings of trepidation upon seeing the film go directly to DVD. My husband and I rented it, trying to brace for the worst. Yep, that's what we got.
My previous posters have pretty clearly outlined the simply terrible animation/CGI visual failure. Let me agree with every disparaging remark previously made and add my own - visually, this movie sucked.
I also agree with complaints about the strangely bloodless battles mixed with brief glimpses of carnage. Why is Riverwind's skin nicely brown and Goldmoon looking like she's suffering from a vitamin D deficiency? They are the same tribe, just different social stations, people! Or was that some subtle racism. They couldn't seem to master the shading for Raistlin's skin - half the time he looked green around the gills. Tas's voice helped overcome some of the visual shortcomings but at first, he looked more like a midget teenage girl than a kender. All the draconians looked the same and yet they are supposed to represent vastly different subspecies. I know it sounds petty complaining about such details when the entire visual effect makes the viewer feel like you're watching an underfunded PBS cartoon, but really, couldn't they get ANYTHING right? Tika's possessed, jiggling boobs were so distracting and yet arguably the most interesting part of the movie.
What was up with the characterization? Did the screenwriters even read the books? Why was Tas hiding (fearlessly) under the wagon during their encounter with the draconians? What was up with Tanis's struggle with faith? Now, I'm not saying Tanis doesn't get rebuked by his comrades at different points of the story in the books, but the screenwriters choice to include all of them when other essential plot-driving scenes from the book were excluded is just ridiculous. It made Tanis seem like everyone's whipping boy, including his own. Raistlin's voice was not nearly as weak and whispery as it should've been, thus negating any points the movie might have earned by hiring Keifer. Even his coughs were hearty! One minute, Raist was shown leaning on his brother, the next he was speaking and acting with strength and bravado. If you're going to destroy iconic characters then do us a favor and don't sign on for the job in the first place.
As if subconsciouly knowing what a wretched product they were creating, the writers and producers then created scenes that destroy any sense of suspense or intrigue that the original storyline ever possessed. If they did, by some miracle, make enough money for the other two movies in the series, what would be the point? We'd be bored to tears without any real mysteries left to uncover. Which brings me to my next point, does the failure to introduce the Everman mean they've surgically removed that entire plotline from the story?
My main question is this ... if you could produce 90 minutes of crap why not go for 120. At least with a full-length movie the pacing and character development would've been more appealing (then again, maybe the torture would've just been prolonged a further half hour).
Bottom line, this movie is total crap. I can't find one redeeming thing about it. If a person has any love for the Dragonlance series, do yourself a favor - Don't rent this movie!

discussion starter:

I know there was a thread on this specific issue last year or so, but rather than ask about possible Christian opposition to Halloween, I wondered if some non-Christians would be willing to share how they interpret this particular holiday in relation to their religious beliefs.
For example, if you don't believe in angels and demons, is it okay to still dress up as one for a party or allow your children to dress as such for trick-or-treating?

Boy, take a break from these message boards for a week or two and suddenly you have to spend several hours of reading on one thread just to catch up!
Whew! There's alot to comment on, but let me start with this...

I strongly disagree that Jesus' identity and "brand name" are more important than his message of love. Let's look again at "It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—-that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption." I look at this and I see that wisdom is in righteousness and holiness. That Christ "has become" less important as a person than as a means of transmittal of that message. That makes sense to me.

On the other hand, you might read it to mean that God has somehow transformed Christ into a lightning rod to salvation--I know that's the main point that separates Christianity from other systems--but that idea to me is silly. When Christ says "No man comes to God save through me," I take it to imply that rejecting his doctrine of love and persisting in performing evil acts won't get you anything but suffering. Most Christians take it a lot more literally, to the point of making the "love thy neighbor" stuff almost like an afterthought--"oh, yeah, you gotta do that, too, I guess. But the main thing is brand loyalty."

This struck me as very interesting and thought-provoking. My first impulse is to eagerly agree with your profound post but another part of me is a little afraid to (what exactly am I agreeing to here?). Anyway, it'll probably take me a day or two to sort this all out in my mind. My general stance is that Jesus is Lord, God's Son, and that no one can come to the Father (be saved) except through Him; but at the same time, since you've explained your point of view, I can't really find a problem with your interpretation of that scripture. In the whole debate of right and wrong, black and white, I differ from you (and many others on this thread) because I tend to interpret scripture literally and hold very firmly with the concept that, despite your earlier threads to the contrary, God is very much IMO about absolutes. The place I can must allow "wiggle room" and accept that I might be wrong is not scripture itself, which I believe IS infallible, but with my own personal interpretation of it. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to different individuals differently. None of us have the whole picture, so to speak. I'm always eager to hear about someone else's revelation (read interpretation) since it would be pure arrogance to assume mine is always the best/most accurate. Such is the case here. Thanks, Kirth, as always, for giving me something new to consider.

I wondered the same thing. I studied the paintings for quite a while, feeling dumber by the minute. I need better clues (or at least more simplistic ones - the demon one was the only one I fully understood). Also, why only three paintings when there are more than three serious outcomes from color-combinations?

I agree that the whole inappropriate dress problem is a combination of poor parenting and amoral societal pressures but it starts alot younger than the tweeners. There's a store in the mall right now with infant onesies hanging in the window that say things like "I'm sexy". When I was working as a kindergarten teacher in the mid-90s, I remember being horrified at the regularity of parents and other care-givers referring to their own children as "sexy". They're 5 years old, you sickos!! Bikinis for toddlers? Why, people, why?! I personally only buy my daughter one-piece swimsuits from Lands End - they are modest and functional which is all any girl under at least 16 needs. I realize some will criticize me as "old-fashioned" and overly conservative but I don't care. But if you (as a parent) think it's cute, funny, and/or harmless when dressing your real little kid inappropriately, what's going to stop your tween-age girl from looking like a tramp when the time comes?
My daughter went to a birthday party recently where the guest-of-honor received such things as a dog-collar necklace, several miniskirts, over-the-knee leather (think Pretty Woman) high-heel boots, several make-up kits and a sweater with a butterfly on it. The birthday girl was six. You wanna guess which gift my daughter brought? The one that was in the trash can five minutes after we left, I'm sure.
The Bratz dolls, the low-rider jeans, the constant sexual innuendo-laden quotes on children's clothing... it all adds up. I don't believe my daughter has ever worn a dress that was her actual size, even as an infant, because I always found them way too short.
But it's people themselves, parents and non-parents alike, that add to problem with their skewed perspectives. Asking early elementary children if they have a girlfriend/boyfriend, like the barber asked my 2nd grader the other day, is not helpful in allowing children to maintain their innocence rather than urging them to act and believe they are somehow so much more mature.
Anyway... I'm rambling. Sorry.
Down with inappropriate clothing!!

Also, as a woman myself, I remember being furious with my mother for not allowing me to wear make-up when I was a tweener and even a teenager. In Junior High I was the only girl in my class who didn't wear make-up. Sometimes my best friend would put make-up on me when I got to school and I'd have to remember to wash my face before going back home. I thought my mother was callous to the impact on my social ranking but now, looking back, I'm thankful for her restrictions. I was still popular in school without the make-up and I learned to appreciate myself for who I am and not who I can pretend to be.

Thanks for your fast and friendly service, as usual! I received an email informing me that my subscriptions have been sent so I'm thrilled. Thanks again!

I got a friendly email (which I appreciated, BTW) informing me that you guys were unable to ship my Pathfinder subscription due to a problem with my credit card. A few days later, I got a similar email about my GameMastery subscription. I interpreted the email to mean that I needed to provide you with a new active credit card so you could charge me and my anxiously awaited products could be shipped. I went to my online account site and provided a new VISA card (and yes, it's turned on and has money available) but when I was returned to my subscription page it wasn't immediately updated with the newly inputted payment method information. What's up with that? My subscription still shows payment with the now-defunct credit info. Did I do something wrong? I want to right this situation so I can receive my Pathfinder (which I haven't received any of) and my GameMastery subscriptions (which I *have* received D1 but am anxiously awaiting D2) as soon as possible.

My Dungeon #150 arrived yesterday - Hoorah!! So I guess I'm OK ;)

Okay, just got Dragon #359 today (Murphy's Law is that it's always just after you complain). Finally!! Still waiting for my Dungeon. Since they shipped about a week apart, should I wait just another seven days or so to really get annoyed or what?

I'm here in Oklahoma and neither Dungeon #150 nor Dragon #359 (is that the last issue number?) have arrived yet. This is so bizarre. It's been almost a month. Are they ever going to arrive? My subscriptions say they've shipped but still ... I have an empty mailbox. How could both be mysteriously late just for me?

My favorite is cliche but hey...the dragon (especially chromatics). This doesn't mean I just throw them out there though like cannon fodder. They are always the noble, terrifying, majestic BBEGs they were, IMO, meant to be. They're iconic but when played properly can still excite and horrify like nothing else.

My least favorite(s) is/are faeries. I have to agree with Sebastian here, even down to the spriggin exception. Spriggin are cool and their wild-hair and cackling madness make them fun despite their size. All other faeries' diminuitive size, their most outstanding characteristic, also becomes one of their biggest headaches when trying to run an encounter. And neutral, or worse! good, alignments destroy the purpose of fey in any real gameplay (in fact, down with all "good" monsters!!). Sure, they're pranksters and often petty thieves, they've got potential but it perishes to boredom or silliness in the end. The majority of faeries have interesting or classic foundations but they just don't work for me mechanically. What's the fun in defeating a pack of Tinkerbells? Not exactly a tale to recount around the next campfire. Even the dryad - cool concept but what do you do with her? They just don't provide good game play.

Crown of the Kobold King is great. The quality is shocking, even being used to Paizo's consistantly fine work - you've all outdone yourself. The pages, the art, the protective shipping package... it all screams great stuff! The adventure itself is intriguing and exciting. It flows nicely and will provide plenty of excitement to newbies and old salts alike. A lot of low level adventures are corny and melodramatic. This adventure seems to have a nice balance of simplicity and challenge.
I'm not sure I understand complaints about the "new world" as nothing about this module was too distinctive to drop right into virtually any prepublished or homebrew world.
Anyway, my gushing praise to all who were involved on this project. It is superlative!

I appreciated my discussions with each one of you but I wanted to take a moment to thank Kirth specifically.
My Dad passed away just over a week ago. The resultant necessary dealings with my Buddhist sister-in-law were not something I was looking forward to. In fact, I haven't seen or spoken to her in 3 years and I was dreading the coming confrontation. The issue of my father has always caused great tension between us in the past. Add to that the antagonism of religious differences and the relationship between Lori & me has been strained at best. But when we got together, I found myself with a whole new appreciation for her beliefs and attitudes. It was so peaceful and refreshing and wasn't tense at all. I kept wanting to just blurt out "Hey, I have a friend online who's also a Buddhist and he has taught me so much and...".
I do consider you my friend, Kirth, and I wanted to thank you for impacting my life in such a way that a potentially unpleasant encounter became a nice bonding moment.
The funeral was over 90 minutes of talk of my father's final destination with the Pastor delivering a powerful gospel message. I thought my sister-in-law handled the entire thing with amazing poise and tolerance. I'm thankful that I have come to a place of greater understanding of her as a person. You, Kirth, were instrumental in my "enlightenment". Thanks again.

Took both my four-year old daughter and my six year old son. Both the kids liked it, and my husband & I thought it was cute too.
My son wasn't scared at all. The granny with the gun didn't bother my daughter nor did the later scene with the poison/trap store. But she *was* frightened by the scene when Remy nearly drowns in the sewer and is separated from his family. Of course, we have a pool and my daughter is just starting to try to learn to swim. The swirling water and underwater panic on the big screen was upsetting to her (she didn't cry but I could tell she was stressed) and she mentioned that she didn't like that part when we left the theatre. Of course, she is equally upset by the scene of the cat's near drowning in Disney's live action "Homeward Bound". Oddly enough, other scary scenes in Disney movies do not upset her - Lion King death/violence, Malifiscent in Sleeping Beauty, Sid/his room/toys in Toy Story, Old Yeller's death, etc. She's not even scared of the wicked witch or the flying monkeys in Wizard of Oz; those monkeys gave me nightmares when I was a kid!

Really, there's no telling with these things. I would try to prepare your daughter by warning her that there are some "scary parts" and encourage her to close her eyes or turn away if something seems scary to her. As a parent, you know her better than anyone else, so just use your best judgement. My father took us to movies every other weekend when I was a kid. Some of the movies weren't very "kid friendly" back then; a handful caused emotional trauma; but in the end, those are some of my fondest childhood memories.

I've only been minimally following this case and since I've never seen Grey's Anatomy, I'm not exactly invested in this particular individual's acting future nor that of the show.
From my limited understanding of the situation, there was definitely fault on both sides (though Washington owns the lion's share). The tv producers could've at least partially avoided this latest stunt by the actor if they had simply chosen a reaction to his initial remark clearly and decisively. I think part of the problem comes from his cast/crew/employers "sorta" supporting his initial stance though he didn't immediately show repentence for his completely offensive remark. They were all enjoying the free publicity, I think, and letting speculation run rampant on whether he would/would not apologize and whether they would/would not fire him. Even his so-called apology was weak and hinted heavily of his own deeper issues. Then when he went off again at the awards ceremony, the cast/producers seemed likewise hesitant to take any real action against the man. THEN, after a span of time (and conveniently after all the fervor died down), *then* they fire him? I think it's hard for the tv producers to justify themselves on any moral high ground here. Even so, Mr. Washington's latest ploy with the oft-abused race card, just further supports the theory that the man is little more than an ass and deserved everything he got (and more).

...then you'd just retaliate by killing all the Baldwin brothers.

And this is a negative thing because...?

A. Okay, maybe a splash of B.

I have hundreds (over 500) miniatures, mostly DDM with a dozen recent Reaper minis in various stages of painting. About 90% of the time, I have the mini I want/need for a scenario. If not and I know it's coming pre-game, I sometimes make my own from sculpty or order it specially from Reaper. If I just can't find the appropriate monster (or it's outrageously priced) I will substitute a (hopefully) similar creature. For a couple years, the only thing I had in any real volume were orcs/goblins and skeletons/zombies from the old HeroQuest game. They still see frequent use, especially representing "hordes".

In my AoW campaign, for instance, I only had one actual grimlock mini so my generic orcs pulled double duty. But I actually purchased 30 lizardmen for the EaBK seige scene. The scene I was able to create was worth it.

Sometimes toys are used to represent things (i.e.small dolls for giants) but I never use two-dimensional stuff. I never liked tokens, no matter how cheap and easy they are.

My vote is permanently marginalized.

No, not a full text. It's something that's developed in my heads...

Dare I ask? Exactly how many heads do you have? ;)

Seriously though, thanks for the write-up, Saern. I too have a compulsive need to flesh out all the various humanoids to their detailed logical conclusion. I always enjoy reading about your visions of fantasy culture.

Wow. It's evident you put a lot of time and effort into your work. How wonderful for your gaming group! It looks amazing!
Not to nitpick but I noticed your Blackwall keep doesn't exactly look spatially accurate to the maps provided in the mag. I say this because I also built a keep and it is much smaller than yours. Even if you used the map for inner dimensions and wall thickness necessitated a larger building - it still doesn't appear accurate, just looking at the pictures compared to the Dungeon map. Or maybe mine was too small. Either way, I'm not sure how people ran this particular scenario without a 3D aid (assuming they include minis in their gaming experience). I originally built my keep just for kicks but quickly learned its value. With so many guards,PCs, and lizardmen to negotiate, the model avoids messing tracking paperwork and confusion about anyone's position/situation.

Ditto the above question. Plus I have one of my own - not to sound cheap or anything, but is there a reason the subscription has no discount whatsoever under the cover price? Sure it saves me the hassle of making my FLGS order the products and then purchasing them locally but every subscription (to any product, even non-gaming) I've ever heard of always rewards the subscriber. Don't you want to encourage people to subscribe? I'm puzzled.

My family and I saw it on Saturday. I liked it much better than the first movie!
(cringes from expected ire of posters here on this thread) I knew very little of the Fantastic Four backstory before seeing the first film. Never read the comics. Never really liked them or cared about them. The first movie was ok but I was disappointed in how it seemed to focus an awful lot of the four of them just bickering and fighting all the time. What's so fantastic about that?
This second movie had a lot less of the infantile bickering, though there was still a scene or two I think they could've skipped of the foursome arguing like third graders.
The special effects were cool but I found some of the plot elements a little confusing. (Sorry, I don't know how to use the HIDE tag thingy and am afraid to try). I won't spoil anything by mentioning them right now.
Also, several of the storylines were a bit predictable without even an attempt at subtly; still... I laughed, I cried (or at least felt *really* sad), I kissed eight bucks goodbye.
For someone without a personal investment in the characters (the reason I stayed away from Spiderman 3 is I couldn't bear their treatment of my favorite superhero), I found the movie entertaining and visually appealing. I'd recommend it.

My husband once created a thief and rolled randomly for his height and weight. He ended up short and quite fat and was thus dubbed "Wedge" by the rest of the party. This nickname was indeed prophetic as gaming years later, he was once used as a tool to block open a complex secret door. We were all punch-drunk that gaming day and laughed about that incident much longer than its intrinsic humor demanded.
Then, after establishing deep trust and loyalty with his party members, the wounded thief convinced them to allow him to guard a recently discovered treasure chest while they continued on through a dungeon - promising to pick him up on the way back. With a secreted magic item, he then teleported home with the treasure and then back to his dungeon guard post. He faked unconsciousness when his party returned and claimed ignorance about the disappearance of the treasure chest. His fellow characters spent the next gaming session trying to track down non-existant bandits before giving up their treasure for lost. I, as the DM, used this as an opportunity for an adventure hook and the party vigorously pursued some criminals who, though guilty of other unrelated charges, had nothing to do with the treasure chest and the dungeon. Wedge acted especially indignant when confronting the wrongly-accused bandits. The party tried every means to get them to confess without success. Wedge, meanwhile, was able to purchase another small home within the city limits that could serve as another "safe house" outside of his associate's knowledge. My husband and I kept exchanging looks during the game and trying really hard not to laugh, or worse - confess the whole hysterical thing!

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Was that the sound of this thread dying?

Here lies the Civil Religious Discussion thread. While we can't really agree on what's going to happen to it, metaphisically speaking, we hope it rests in peace anyway.

Too funny, Dirk.