Koz1120's page

I was wondering the same thing. The duration is certainly missing.

Witchelf wrote:

Although I like the new bard in almost every aspect, there is one thing that I cannot get over with:

the DC against bardic music = perform check result. Ok, it sounds really nice and reasonable, works in the case of fascinate because that's not a combat ability, but in my groups I have several bards, all with skill focus:performs and masterwork or magical music intruments. How can anyone hope to resist these DC-s?

It is not funny that enemy adventuring parties all run off because a bard starts to sing. At least it should be the barbarian who scares them off if it is necessary :-)

Really, think of it. I have a high level group, bard 18th level, charisma 20, +4 bonus music instrument, skill focus (perform) and versatile performer feats. Average perform check result 45,5. Who has a reasonable chance to make that save, even at high levels, except for dragons?

And, this way, especially the 20. level "deadly performance" makes the bard the jack-of-all-kills.

JJ, if you read: seriously, why did you not stay with the standard 10+classlevel+charisma DC?

Eagerly waiting for comments on this issue

Your absolutely right that the skill check thing can get way out of hand. But I also agree that something more than the 10+class level+Charisma needs to be implemented. The "standard" dc is fine against low level groups... but how can a bard affect a dragon? or some other highly intelligent foe if he cant hope to have more than a 25% chance or less to affect them? Not that the bard should be able to kill with deadly performance at will, or anything like that, but i do like the idea of making bardic abilities harder to shrug off. They were never a threat before because everyone could just ignore them most of the time. they cant do that now.

As for the multiple perform types required, i like this. Yes, fluff wise it is a little rough. Dancers can fascinate as easily as orators and musicians, but at the same time, i like that it forces bard to become more than 1 trick...

Hmmm, maybe you're right. If we go standard DC formula, a 10th level Bard would have a DC of about 19... not that fantastic really. Not terrible, but not fantastic.

How about if you could burn more Bardic Music uses when you use the ability to increase the DC? Maybe like +2 or +3 to the DC for each additional use of Bardic Music you use to power the effect?

Alright... so, let me explain why Save or Die is (generally speaking) bad for the game.

First off, it is terrible for the players. Over the life time of a high level character, you are going to roll a 1 a couple of times against these critical saves. These spells mean that you just stop having fun. Now, the new spells can still do that, but there is a more reasoned metric than just one d20 roll to decide it.

Second, they grant way too much power to spellcasters. These spells start showing up pretty early and really allow spellcasters to start outshining the combat types.

Third, they can make what was supposed to be a memorable combat, a real let down. Having the BBEG fall over dead because of one botched save is not really fun for anybody.

Finally, they penalize any high level character build that does not work to crank up its Fort and Will saves (rogue, I am looking at you). These characters often end up failing these saves on a roll of greater than 1, and for them, this is an inheriant rule bit that punishes them.

In the end, I feel it was a good decision, but I can see how some might feel otherwise. I am, as always open to debate. As a reminder, I did not mess with the spells that typically had other checks built into them, like phantasmal killer and circle of death.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

PS: Thanks to Monte for letting me use some of these mechanics from BoEM.

Well said. SoD effects are harmful to the game IMO. We took them out of our games almost immediately after 3.0 came out. Who wants to be killed in the first action of the combat and then sit there for 2+ hours watching everyone else play? Most groups I know of that we've gotten to try our house rules about SoD and ressurection have liked it more than they thought and haven't gone back.

The new SoD mechanics you've used are still actually more lethal against players than what we use (we do: on a failed save you are reduced to 1 -d10 hp). However, yours is still better than 3.5.

I also like the changes to other "removed from combat" spells you've made (like Forcecage). All in all, these changes will alow us to return many of these spells to our game that we've had removed for a long time (Wishes, Forcecage, Disjunction, etc.).

Witchelf wrote:

Although I like the new bard in almost every aspect, there is one thing that I cannot get over with:

the DC against bardic music = perform check result. Ok, it sounds really nice and reasonable, works in the case of fascinate because that's not a combat ability, but in my groups I have several bards, all with skill focus:performs and masterwork or magical music intruments. How can anyone hope to resist these DC-s?

It is not funny that enemy adventuring parties all run off because a bard starts to sing. At least it should be the barbarian who scares them off if it is necessary :-)

Really, think of it. I have a high level group, bard 18th level, charisma 20, +4 bonus music instrument, skill focus (perform) and versatile performer feats. Average perform check result 45,5. Who has a reasonable chance to make that save, even at high levels, except for dragons?

And, this way, especially the 20. level "deadly performance" makes the bard the jack-of-all-kills.

JJ, if you read: seriously, why did you not stay with the standard 10+classlevel+charisma DC?

Eagerly waiting for comments on this issue

I am going back through these very issues and you will probably see some standardized DCs in the Beta.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Good to hear. I love the Bard class and really like what you've done with it, but DC's based on skill checks is too easily abused and quickly gets to the point where no foe can resist without rolling a 20. The only thing that saved Facinate from being totaly broken in 3.5 was that it was a non-combat ability.

As far as fixes go, a standard 10 + 1/2 Bard level + Charisma would probably work. Also, Deadly Performance might need to cost more uses of the Bards music with each use than just one. Maybe two or three uses of Bardic Music per use of Deadly Performance?

I'd also like to take the time to say great job so far. This stuff is so much more exciting and promising than the 4.0 drivel being leaked out.

I haven't been so damned excited about D&D in years. And best of all, with all the gadjillions of posts and rants along every possible tangent, the Paizo staff still go out of their way to talk to us and listen to us...and...gosh, they really actually act upon our suggestions more often than not!

So I'd like to dedicate this thread as a place to thank Paizo for all that they are doing for us and our hobby.

Keep it up guys!

*Sniff!* There I go again. Anyone have a tissue?

QFT!!!

I've gotten into the Paizo revolution a bit later than some (only about a week now), but the excitement I feel when I read this stuff is what I should've been feeling about 4e and don't.

The garbage I've seen for 4e has been giving me a sick feeling in my stomach for the future of the game, but Pathfinder has renewed my vigor for the game.

I hope Paizo does well with this, they deserve to, since they are actually making something that the fans want, instead of just making something to try and break into the MMO crowd.

Koz

On page 27 it states: Unless otherwise noted, most sorcerers are assumed to have the Arcane Bloodline.

What does this mean exactly? Does it mean that all Sorcerers have Arcane Bloodline automatically as well as one of their choice? Or is it only making referrences to it being the default bloodline for NPC sorcerers?

Koz

I like the new paladin quite a bit but I would suggest a few things to make it better (which others have also made in this thread).

1.) Smite should work on Chaotic as well as Evil (but I disagree with people that think it should just give constant damage against evil ALWAYS).
2.) The bonded weapon should be able to have it's use split up during the day (which I see you are considering).
3.) Remove Disease should be reworked to something like "Purging Touch" which can cancel/cure multiple effects with a touch such as: disease, poison, charm/compulsion effects, fear, etc. That would actually make the ability usefull. As one of the lamest abilities in the entire game... it needs SOMETHING.

Good work so far though, the excitement I get reading this stuff is what I should've been getting reading the 4E stuff (I'm not).

Koz

I like this limitation actually. I think it's way too easy to bump up all of your stats in this game to silly levels. While I understand that fighter types need Con and Strength I think the way it works right now is too much and too easy to abuse.

Maybe a solution to this would be to just limit the number of ability boosters you can have from items to two but not restrict the slots. That way a fighter could have a boost to Strength and Con but nothing else.

Koz