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Organized Play Member. 453 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 5 Organized Play characters.


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Liberty's Edge

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It's a lifestyle choice! Who are you people to judge?

I mean, who are we to judge?

Liberty's Edge

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Which form of government is it where you line up every couple of years, poke at a lighted screen for a few minutes, and then later that night the TV tells you what happened? That's the one I do.

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Sanakht Inaros wrote:
Bitter Thorn wrote:
Ron Paul: Defense Bill Establishes Martial Law In America
And this is why Ron Paul to stupid to be president.

In the US we live enmeshed within vast matrices of all-encompassing laws and codes that are enforced at the discretion of law enforcement officials. Lives and property are routinely destroyed for minor offenses or just the appearance of minor offenses. Children are charged with sex crimes. Elderly cancer patients are taken from their wheel chairs and have their diapers searched at the airport. Peaceful protesters are sprayed with chemicals and beaten. We live in a de facto police state already, whether or not you have felt the boot on your neck; these new developments only make it official.

Ron Paul is wrong about a lot of things, but not this.

Liberty's Edge

There were relatively more native Americans in the mid-19th century, so that was nice in a Dances With Wolves kind of way.

But seriously, let's just go back to 10th century Iceland.

ORM EGILSON

Oh, but seriously seriously, nothing we do will matter. The advances in technology coming in the next few decades will consume humanity, and we will disappear into the machinery. The 1% will be immortal cyborg vampires, and the 99% will be soldiers, service workers, and organ farms.

Merry Christmas, everybody!

Liberty's Edge

Things are so bad at this point that I am going to vote for the mid-19th Century to make a comeback.

RON PAUL

(You'll never hurt me again, Obama. Nothing you ever do or say will make me take you back. I will grow strong. I will learn to carry on!)

Liberty's Edge

I never understood why people would get upset about the economic rape of the county or the new police state when they could OCCUPY themselves with video games and fantasy RPGs. Get a life, dirty hippies!

Liberty's Edge

Kavren Stark wrote:
Kortz wrote:
Yeah, slavery was central to the public discourse, rhetoric, and politicking of the time, but to say the Civil War was just about slavery is kind of a Pollyanna approach.

And I don't say that. I do say that slavery was a necessary condition for secession and the civil war to occur; without that factor, all of the other conflicts between the northern and southern states together would not have resulted in the kind of violent schism that occurred in the 1860s.

Kortz wrote:
That is, we like to assume that the result of the Civil War was positive progress, and we point toward the end of slavery to prove that fact.
Which it does; it's such a huge improvement in the aggregate conditions of human life in this country as to vastly outweigh all arguably negative social effects of the war. (I say arguably because most of the arguments I've heard for negative effects are conservative or libertarian arguments against changes in society that progressives regard as positive.)

I don't really disagree with any of that. One of my favorite things to do is to make fun of "libertarians," but lately a strong federal government seems to me to be a double-edged sword. And it interests me to think about what other economic and political turns America might have taken if slavery had not existed.

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Kavren Stark wrote:
That first song almost sounds like a Poe -- it's so explicitly, defiantly hateful toward the Constitution, the american eagle, and the very ideal of freedom that one suspects it was actually written to show off the hypocrisy of Confederate sympathizers who also claim to be patriots. It's not quite as unambiguously anti-Confederate as Tom Lehrer's "I Wanna Go Back To Dixie," but it can certainly be read that way. My own opinion on the Confederacy matches John Scalzi's (see here and here as well) -- to claim that preserving slavery wasn't the single most important cause of secession, or that it would have happened at all without that issue, is to be either ignorant or dishonest. The two most important differences between the Confederate Constitution and the U.S. Constitution in regard to states' rights were that the Confederate Constitution denied states the right to abolish slavery or to grant citizenship rights to free blacks, and that the Confederate Constitution explicitly denied states the right to secede from the Confederate States of America.

Yeah, slavery was central to the public discourse, rhetoric, and politicking of the time, but to say the Civil War was just about slavery is kind of a Pollyanna approach. That is, we like to assume that the result of the Civil War was positive progress, and we point toward the end of slavery to prove that fact.

(Note: I don't mean to downplay at all the horror show that was slavery. Any country that engages in such practices deserves to be destroyed.)

But to say that it all comes down to slavery is like saying that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are about terrorism. Yeah, 9/11, Osama bin Laden, yadda, yadda, but a lot more is going on than just a supposed fight against terrorism. As an American citizen, I am about to lose the last of my guarantees to civil liberties with the passage of the current NDAA, but is that because of terrorism or are there other more complex economic and political issues in play?

Comparing slavery to terrorism might not be the best argument, because slavery actually existed and wasn't a nebulous concept, but my point is that history might end up recording this time period as an Age of Terrorism, when it was an age being dragged along by economic forces just like any other.

Liberty's Edge

The Confederacy was fighting against the same centralization of power in the hands of the banking industry that Occupy Wall Street is protesting against today. Discuss!

Just kidding, don't discuss that. Get The Long Riders on DVD and watch David Carradine make the band sing "I'm a good ol' Rebel."

Gods and Generals... not a great movie, but Stephen Lang as Stonewall Jackson was worth it.

Liberty's Edge

Time-saving SPOILER: Mitt Romney gets GOP nomination and loses to Obama in the general election.

Liberty's Edge

Abraham spalding wrote:
Kortz wrote:
The school system is not a fiscal failure; it is a moral failure.

I disagree -- it's a failure of management. Allowing the village idiots to tell what should be highly skilled and talented people where, when and how to do their job is always going to end in failure, regardless of the morals or money involved.

Saw too many businesses sink from the exact same problem. Some idiot decides that since he is the manager he best get down there and tell everyone else what to do and how to do it instead of letting the people actually do their jobs as they know how and simply keeping problems out of the way.

True, the village idiots tend to rise through the ranks of school administrators, but I think the fact that we've given over the schools to bureaucrats whose main worries are statistics and not hurting anyone's feelings -- students and parents -- is a failure of purpose and vision, which is a moral failure. Somewhere along the way we forgot how to teach and enforce cultural standards.

And I hate to sound reactionary -- when I don't sound like rabid right-winger, I chime in as a bleeding-heart liberal.

Liberty's Edge

Ancient Sensei wrote:

Oh, well, as long as what we're really talking about is the secret agenda of evil Christians and mean Republicans who don't actuallt care about education, let's jsut bring on the blame and stereotypes and bypass all the research and observable evidence that might illustrate how an increasing number of schools are failing, or on how the longer an American student is in public education, the worse he or she is when compared to other nations.

Every election cycle, every lottery debate, every budget, the story is the same: money is the solution and if we don't throw more money into education, we don't care about kids ro the future. THen the schools get the money and the education goes canal water, and the solution is: more money!

The solution is accountability. Teachers who can't teach should be fired. It works that way in every other profession. A principle who can't manage education and discipline should be fired. A littany of excuses for the failure of our educational system has not helped us. A new program for throwing cash into a furnace in an effort to look like we care more about education without doing any more educating than last year has not helped us. Growing education bureaucracy to the point where there's a school staff member of some kind for every two kids in a school system has not helped anyone.

It doesn't matter who you plug in as teachers at this point because the public school system has become a human storage facility that lives and breathes standardized testing. The problem isn't that too much money is being thrown at the schools; the problem is that money is being spent on the creation of a politically correct dystopia where kids are as likely to read 10th Century Chinese poetry as they are Melville or Thoreau. Diaper-wearing "mentally challenged" children are being taught alongside other kids, in the same classrooms, dragging down the curve. Children attack teachers and get a pat on the head and a couple of days off from school.

The school system is not a fiscal failure; it is a moral failure.

Liberty's Edge

Philosophy was a great white whale that destroyed its hunters. Now we all float in a vast ocean on coffins covered in signs and symbols.

Have you made Wittgenstein your personal savior yet?

Liberty's Edge

Ron Paul is just upset that a fellow anti-semite was killed.

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FARK and Reddit.

I would avoid 4chan.

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I bet if I made a Bard Archivist and named him "Derrida" no one would get it...

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Fairy tales are a bad thing?

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Imagine there's no government
It's easy if you try
No paved roads below us
Above us only sky-mansions of the uber-rich
Imagine all the fantasy-prone misfits
Living for their masters
Because they voted Libertarian

Liberty's Edge

You have no make mean to it.

Liberty's Edge

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Robert Hawkshaw wrote:

I believe what you are describing is anomie.

As an atheist I've always had trouble articulating what a norm building and continuing set of traditions should be. I don't want to have beliefs dictated to me, and don't really want to dictate them to...

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm trying to get at. I guess I'll put Durkheim on the TBR list.

And I think a lot of people turned to Dungeons and Dragons out of a craving for the stories and myths that transmit values -- or at least the trappings thereof.

Liberty's Edge

GentleGiant wrote:


Now, I agree that one shouldn't just bend over backwards to incorporate and accept all cultural norms. Some are just too abhorrent to accomplish anything good.
On the other hand, just because something is historic and "how we always do it" doesn't validate it either. Things weren't always better "back in the good old days."
This is a line we often see from republicans (not talking about the US political party, although most of their members would probably fall into this category), nationalists and conservatives.
That the good old (often so-called Christian) values should be defended at all costs.
But we've survived lots of changing values, heck, we're even mostly better off today BECAUSE of changing values. So it's not a question of values and...

True, the character of the West has changed and evolved over the centuries, but we reached a point where we pulled that process up by the roots and put it on the shelf. And even though, yeah, traditions and history don't validate themselves, we can't live without them without becoming nihilistic.

What really struck me about the London riots (following them on the internet here in the US, anyway) was all the rioting in the Muslim parts of London... No wait, there was none as far as I know. Why? Probably because they have a community they care about founded on traditions that they are not going to throw away. People absolutely crave that and do not want to live without it, and if we can't manage to provide some kind of tradition for the next generations besides the choices of consumerism and fundamentalist Christianity (both afflicted by materialism), we are going to falter and fail on a wide scope.

p.s. As to whether secular people can be spiritual, I guess I meant by the "spiritual" vital emotions or feeling a kind of fullness and joy in life accessible to every human no matter their beliefs.

Liberty's Edge

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GentleGiant wrote:


So no, the problem isn't multiculturalism. It's only when that "culturalism" consists of opposing religious views (Christian sects vs. Christian sects, Christianity vs. Islam etc.).
So tell me, what are those "values" you are referring to?
And I'm not making this a right vs. left problem.

Ok, thread blew up and might end up being locked, so I'm not going to give this the attention it deserves, but...

The mixing of cultures is inevitable and has been going since different groups of people discovered different ways of doing things. What bothers me is ideological multiculturalsim. A civilization that bends over backwards to tolerate and appease all worldviews doesn't have a coherent one of its own. A society that teaches that values and traditions are arbitrary and all equally valid uproots itself from its own history. And when people feel uprooted and unconnected, they no longer care and they become nihilistic in a basic, existential way.

This is a broad generalization coming, but I'd say that modernism and post-modernism have dealt the West a crippling spiritual blow to both the secular and the religious. And until we deal with that fundamental issue it is all just right vs left ping pong.

Liberty's Edge

GentleGiant wrote:


Methinks you've been reading too much of Anders Breivik's manifest...
That's how far out I think this line of reasoning is.

Yeah, anyone who mentions values is a dangerous lunatic, but the people who see this as a purely material problem are just full of humanity.

The Right serves those who are really looting the West and doing more damage than rioters can ever do, and the Left just pleads to provide more comfort in the cages of the poor.

Until we figure out who we are and what we believe in there will be no solutions, and Europe will probably be mostly lost to a different way of life that will provide tradition and a connection to the sacred.

But by all means continue on with the right versus left chatter. It has solved so much.

Liberty's Edge

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These rioters are what you are going to get after raising generations in a relativistic, value-less, multicultural, consumerist environment in which everyone feels entitled to whatever they want just for the great feat of being born. Prevent access to the consumer goods they need to fill the holes in their souls, images of which they are bombarded with constantly, and when economic realities set in and they can't have those things they are going to simmer in rage.

Do bad economic policies need to change? Certainly. But the heart of the problem is that Western civilization is sick and rudderless.

Why should backward and/or medieval immigrants to the West change their practices or worldviews once they get here and see how empty and hollow our societies are?

Europe will be fully part of the Islamic world by the end of this century, and the US will be a strange, little Byzantine Empire.

I think I'll have a margarita!

Edited for spelling but not pessimism.

Liberty's Edge

Abraham spalding wrote:


Tell you what -- I'm more than willing to discuss this further with you in a different thread if you want to start one, however I don't feel we should hijack the rioting thread to do so.

There must be order in the riot thread!

Liberty's Edge

Every major city in the US will look like London when Ron Paul is president.

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Old England is Dying

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Okay, people. Play crossbow-wielding Fighters. Knock yourself out. Enjoy.

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Gorbacz wrote:

That's why you go Light X-bow, not heavy. There, Rapid Shot benefit from the get-go.

In the end, a crossbowman is one extra attack and one feat behind a bowman, but gets more out of Critical feats. (And I'll say that again, Impact Critical Shot from UC is pretty awesome)

Yeah, you can just stick with Light X-bow and you are only one feat behind the Archer and other Fighters. Your range is 30' less than the composite longbowman (more if he is the Archer archetype) but... that kind of range doesn't come up every game.

So you are a Feat behind with a lesser weapon that can never add STR damage to an attack and can never double the damage on the first attack like a bow, BUT... if you stick it out until 11th level or so, you have a 10% greater chance of getting use out of critical feats than a bowman with the same feat selection. 10%. You've selected a markedly inferior weapon so that after who knows how many sessions, if your character lives, he eventually gets a 10% greater chance to get off critical feat effects. Worth it? Not to me.

Now, crossbows are cool, and there are a lot of crossbow-wielding characters to make, but it's a mistake to build a Fighter around this particular weapon imo.

Liberty's Edge

Okay, Sangalor, let's talk about your Crossbowman a little bit. First off he is a Fighter with 10 STR, making him useless in melee until he takes Point Blank Mastery or gets Safe Shot at 13th Level (which the Archer gets at 9th). So basically his role in the party is to get off a couple of shots and hope that the enemy doesn't close, at which time his main activity will be hoping the rest of the party wins the battle before he gets chewed up. (And unlike the DEX-based Rogue who has Skills, he has almost nothing else to bring to the table besides, "I shoot at things.")

But how many shots is he getting off? Well, that's interesting when it comes to the crossbowman at low levels. You're going the Heavy X-bow and X-bow Mastery route, which means that you took Rapid Reload: Heavy Crossbow at 1st. Now when you take Rapid Shot at 2nd, it is useless because loading the Heavy X-bow is still a standard action. Your Rapid Shot feat doesn't kick in until you take Mastery at 3rd level. So you are a Fighter who just spent two feats on what costs wielders of other weapons only one, and you had a dead feat at level two. Now if you are just making a 15th level X-bowman out of thin air, this might not matter as much; but if you are actually playing one at low levels, this is a pain in the butt.

And because of Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery, you have had to start your 15pt-buy X-bowman with 14 WIS and 10 STR because Iron Will is out of the question, and you are a feat behind the Archer who will be taking Many Shot at level 6 (and doubling the damage on his first shot) when you are still taking Deadly Aim -- not that Many Shot will every apply to your crossbowman.

Now, if you are starting a campaign at 12th or 15th level, by all means make a Crossbowman with critical feats and have a blast on the occasions when you threat and confirm a crit, but if you are starting a campaign at 1st level you are going to be disappointed in how feat-taxed your Crossbowman is to not even be able to keep up with the Archers and melee Fighters when it comes to dealing damage. It's nice to have concepts you want to see played out, but the actual game after game crunch is not friendly to the crossbow.

Other notes: This conversation has mostly ignored Archer's combat tricks such as Disarm. I don't think any reasonable judge would allow Gloves of Dueling to apply to x-bows or bows.

Liberty's Edge

Gorbacz wrote:
Kortz wrote:

Who plays at 20th level? You're talking about a theoretical Crossbowman that just shows up at 15th level or so with his critical feats, his one possible saving grace. That's not how people play, usually. By all means, at your next character creation session make a 1st level Crossbowman and enjoy his long journey to Blinding Critical.

If you all want to do a DPR Olympics between Archer and Crossbowman, knock yourself out. It's so not even close I don't see the point.

Only on the internet could this even be a discussion!

"Empirical data? NONSENSE! Common folk wisdom trumps math every time!"

Yeah...

What did I just say? Run the DPR Olympics on the Archer and Crossbowman. It won't be close. Everything that helps the crossbow helps the bow, and the crossbow will never add STR damage or have Many Shot. Meanwhile the Crossbowman has to use a feat on Rapid Reload -- and Crossbow Mastery if he wants an additional one point of average damage with the Heavy Crossbow.

Liberty's Edge

Who plays at 20th level? You're talking about a theoretical Crossbowman that just shows up at 15th level or so with his critical feats, his one possible saving grace. That's not how people play, usually. By all means, at your next character creation session make a 1st level Crossbowman and enjoy his long journey to Blinding Critical.

If you all want to do a DPR Olympics between Archer and Crossbowman, knock yourself out. It's so not even close I don't see the point.

Only on the internet could this even be a discussion!

Liberty's Edge

Sangalor wrote:
Kortz wrote:
There's no way that an additional 10% chance at crit threat makes up for the crossbow being thoroughly outclassed by the bow at every level.

I disagree. Critical feats were mentioned, these should definitely be incorporated into the sample build above. With improved critical you threaten 20% of the time on a crossbow, so you basically get 1 crit every round on average once you have that 4th attack and rapid shot.

Also, there are alchemical bolts (acid - hello Mr. Troll!) but not alchemical arrows.
The bow is a classic and well-supported weapon, I agree. However, crossbows are cool and finally viable with Pathfinder IMO :-)

By that reasoning it would be every fifth roll, not fourth, and with your last iterative attack being at nowhere near your highest attack bonus, rolling a 17 or 18 might not even help at that level.

Never mind actually confirming the critical.

You're imagining the best (though few) possibilities for the Crossbowman but ignoring the fact that he is going to lag behind most if not all other Fighters on the way to being high level, where he gets his crit feats, while being blown away by the Archer. It's not even close, really. If you want to play a crossbow-wielding guy, fine, have fun -- really. But be prepared to be mechanically unspectacular compared to all the other martial types.

Liberty's Edge

There's no way that an additional 10% chance at crit threat makes up for the crossbow being thoroughly outclassed by the bow at every level.

Liberty's Edge

Sangalor wrote:
sonny thomas wrote:

I'm fairly new to pathfinder and am having trouble creating characters I want to make a crossbowman . if any of you can help me start out on this build I would greatly appreciate it human is fine for my build thank you.

I do not think the crossbowman is bad. He gets to add dex to damage later, which is the stat you will boost anyway. And with improved critical you will do way more damage with a crossbow than with a bow. Plus you can shoot alchemical bolts - hmmmm :-)

However, you can always take the standard fighter and the appropriate feats - you will still be a significant threat. And you got enough feats to spare ;-)

Crossbowman only adds DEX to damage as a readied action, half DEX bonus at 3rd level and full bonus at 11th, which means it doesn't apply to full attacks.

And I'd like to see the math on a 10% boost in crit threat range making the Crossbow do "way more" damage than a bowman who is firing more arrows (Many Shot) and adding STR damage to each one, and whose crit multiplier is x3.

And the Fighter does not have feats to spare. Feats are what the Fighter has going for him and they have to be chosen wisely. The crossbowman wastes them compared to other Fighters.

The crossbow is a failure as a Fighter's main weapon.

Players should have fun and go with their imagination, but Crossbowman is going to be frustrating from a mechanical standpoint.

Liberty's Edge

No, the Rapid Shot and Many Shot feats make bow-wielding characters very effective in combat. Plus you can add your STR bonus to damage with composite bows.

Liberty's Edge

Not to rain on your parade, but Crossbowman is a pretty terrible archetype mechanically. You are going to have to burn feats on things like Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery and still be behind the curve as far as martial characters dealing damage. You will never be able to add STR to damage the Many Shot feat is never a possibility.

IMO they should have folded Crossbowman into the Sniper Rogue archetype somehow.

If you are deadset on it, though, you might want to look go in the direction of Improved Critical and the critical feat chains.

If you just want a crossbow-themed character, then I think Inquisitor or Rogue would be more interesting to play.

Liberty's Edge

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That's what Sidhe said.

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All I wanted was a triple-chicken saber and all I got was this double-chicken saber. Thanks, Paizo!

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To say you pity someone their ignorance is a way of saying that you do not fear them intellectually.

But usually if someone feels the need to say that they are not afraid of something, they actually are.

So I would see it as less of a personal attack and more of an admission of weakness.

Liberty's Edge

Xabulba wrote:
Devils are angels, read the the bible.

Which passage in "the bible" explains that devils are angels? Just curious.

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You could teach sheep to roll dice...

Or penandpapergames.com or Obsidian Portal or Meetup.

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lokius wrote:
People focus waaaaay too much on DPR and I think it is a result of the MMO min max generation more than anything.
Not the way I hear it. Fighters and paladins didn't dream of gauntlets of ogre power and holy avengers in 1E because of roleplay considerations.

C'mon, man. How can anyone say that anything up to and including 1E was anything like the way the game is now?

Players wanted magic items to be more badass, not because they were expected in order to feel mathematically adequate and on an even playing field at any given level.

The entire consciousness of the game has changed because the background practices of the gamers has changed, and those background practices include years of playing highly regimented computer RPGs.

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I've participated in a lot of internet message boards, so I am kind of an expert on government, and what I think we should have done is built the Great Lighthouse early and set aside some Great Merchants for an emergency.

Liberty's Edge

If it's flavor he's after then he should go with the falchion.

If it's just the damage stats that he's after then he needs to sit down and be quiet.

Liberty's Edge

TheWhiteknife wrote:


Kortz,
And why do we have to have a meteor hit and take us back to the 1700's to want to end our involvement in silly wars that in no way protect security? You know who gets killed in them? Its not the rich, I'll tell you that. Why is it misfit fantasy thinking to want to end the massive failure that is the War on Drugs and recognize that we own our own bodies? You know who gets hard time for possession? Here's a hint, its not the rich. Why is it so loony to want to protect the first, second, and fourth amendments from the attacks on both sides of the congressional aisle? You want to know who is victimized by the police state? It aint the rich.

I didn't mean to imply that so-called Libertarians aren't right about anything, and it's the things they are right about that probably attracts a lot of people in the first place. But the ideology as a whole is grounded in an idealization of the past and seems escapist to me. (And I would say the same about some of the far Left.) A lot of ideological thinking is fantasy thinking, but I find Libertarian ideological thinking particularly atavistic, misanthropic, and deluded.

We'd be better off all standing in the middle, taking a pragmatic stance, and figuring out what works and what doesn't instead of seeing everything through the lens of this or that ideology.

Liberty's Edge

Xenophile wrote:
At this point I feel I should mention that a few months ago I had the idea for a hill giant assassin who snipes out his targets with a hand-held ballista.

And then he hides in a tree.

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Well, "fantasy-prone misfit Libertarians" might not be entirely fair. There is a slight chance that the Earth gets hit by a meteor big enough to throw us back into the 18th Century, and when that happens all the Ron Paulists will be heroes.

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I think capitalism is a key component of freedom and innovation.

But I also think that the ultra-wealthy and international corporations are bleeding the US dry. So, yeah, we need more of what the religious fundamentalists and fantasy-prone, misfit Libertarians call "socialism."

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Hron Pahl!

Paladin of Deregulos and Bearer of the Gold Standard.

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