London Riots


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Mothman wrote:

For f@+!’s sake people, grow up.

This should be a discussion about a very real, very current and very tragic series of events that have no one simple answer or cause and room for opposing but reasoned views.

It is not the time or place for Internet Oneupmanship 101.

You are correct.

A good quote I saw that helps encompass why this riot happened:

Quote:

If youre born poor in a deprived london borough, the odds are instantly stacked against you. I'm not saying it isnt possible to escape, but statistically its unlikely. As a thought exercise, assume you are one of these poor children. Your family dont have much money since theyre either working minimum wage or on the dole. You yourself go to an average at best set of schools, but since theyre inner city london theyre probably going to be the bad side of average.

In your neighbourhood you have problems with gangs. To try to combat this problem, a number of youth centers are set up so the kids have something to do with their time instead of hanging out on the streets and getting into trouble. With very little warning, their funding is pulled and the kids are back on the street. Tensions rise. A few people you know get stabbed in gang fighting. Maybe one of them dies from their injuries.

Schools finished. You did the best you could, but didnt get very good GCSEs. Because your family's poor you have to get a job as quick as you can, but since you dont have much in the way of qualifications its probably going to be minimum wage, which at 16 is a paltry £3.64 an hour. You might have gone to college, but since the £30 a week EMA's gone, you and your family simply cant afford it since you wouldnt be able to keep your heads above water. When youre older, the minimum wage bumps up to £4.92, then £5.93. At london prices, this doesnt go very far.

The recession comes along, and you lose your job. Your manager says its "downsizing", more likely he's going to hire a school leaver to save on labour costs so he in turn doesnt lose his job to keep the branch profits as high as he can. Congratulations, youre now unemployed.

Say youre about 20 at this point. You apply for a bunch of jobs but since its a recession, lots more people are out of work too. Employers have the pick of the litter. They choose people with more experience, or are better qualified. Youre left on the scrapheap. Time rolls on. You apply for more jobs, multiple ones a day. The same keeps happening since you cant get a job without experience and you cant get experience without a job. Catch 22.You might find something eventually, but its more than likely going to be minimum wage and suited to your lack of qualifications.

Since youve been out of work for so long, or just because youre on minimum wage, getting some education is out of the question since it costs too much. You have more immediate concerns like high utility bills, food prices being squeezed, inflation taking more and more things out of your hand because the minimum wage has been static for a year. Do you know how much it was raised by, in 2010? A measly 13p. This year its going up to £6.08. A whole 15p. A rise of 2.5%, while the retail price index in february was 5.1%. So despite getting more money on paper, it buys less.

So you try and work hard amidst a background of poverty, high crime levels and a stagnant career path. Discontent builds.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

With a little reasoned observation it is not difficult to understand how and why this riot came about. Severe poverty and social problems are something that first world countries seem all to ready to ignore or explain away when it’s going on in their own house. Partly this is because it is a very complex issue, and tends to get put into the too hard basket. It gets to the point where a dearth of money, low pay and a lack of jobs, while huge major factors, are not the only ones, and simply throwing money at the cycle of poverty and joblessness (assuming there is money to be thrown) does not solve it.

As was pointed out up thread, a situation like this draws attention to the plight of the people at the centre of it, but the attention is not always good … maybe good things will come out of this, social programs, funding, community works, but maybe it will tend to lead only to harsher policing, stricter laws and deeper discrimination.

The problem with riots is that they very quickly tend to become unreasonable and unfocused and the big picture is lost. The communities that are being hurt by these riots are, for the most part, the communities that feel the problems the hardest. Homes and businesses are being burnt, homes and businesses of people that live in those areas. People are joining in the rioting, not to try to enact social change or get their message across, but because they like the violence, it’s something to do, their friends are doing it, it is a chance to destroy and loot. Not all, but many.

What will happen in the aftermath of this? The poor and disadvantaged areas hurt in the riots will have more people homeless, more people without jobs to go to, less businesses and services willing to serve them. The repairs will take a lot longer to happen than those in middle class and wealthier areas. They will be the focus of police, government and social condemnation, not all of it deserved.

I hope something good comes from this, but it will get worse before it gets better … and unfortunately history shows that while it might get a bit better for a period of time, people will forget, the money will dry up, programs will change, people will fall back into old dependencies and habits, and things will go back to or be worse than what they were, unless huge effort and huge resources are devoted to the underlying problems.


So in a city of 7,825,200(ish) 300 are a city wide riot that has the entire city in chaos?

Um.. yeah I'm guessing an exaggeration is involved here.

Liberty's Edge

Abraham spalding wrote:

So in a city of 7,825,200(ish) 300 are a city wide riot that has the entire city in chaos?

Um.. yeah I'm guessing an exaggeration is involved here.

Where did you get the 300 figure from?

I haven't seen any published figures of the total number of rioters, I have seen estimates of '100 looters' in this area and 'a few hundred rioters' in another, or '215 poeple arrested so far'. The unrest has spread to multiple areas.

Possibly 300 was the number from the original march / riot the other day?


Mothman wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

So in a city of 7,825,200(ish) 300 are a city wide riot that has the entire city in chaos?

Um.. yeah I'm guessing an exaggeration is involved here.

Where did you get the 300 figure from?

I haven't seen any published figures of the total number of rioters, I have seen estimates of '100 looters' in this area and 'a few hundred rioters' in another, or '215 poeple arrested so far'. The unrest has spread to multiple areas.

Possibly 300 was the number from the original march / riot the other day?

OP:

yellowdingo wrote:

So London has descended into chaos as 300 Rioters have set fire to buildings...

Bloody Brits.

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-07/riot-breaks-out-in-london/2827852

Not too much caring if he was right or not -- just pointing out the... discrepancy between the numbers and level of chaos that was being claimed from those numbers.

I've not been keeping up with London unfortunately, I've had enough other stuff on my plate currently to keep me busy and I work three 12 hour days each weekend so...

Liberty's Edge

Abraham spalding wrote:

OP:

yellowdingo wrote:

So London has descended into chaos as 300 Rioters have set fire to buildings...

Bloody Brits.

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-07/riot-breaks-out-in-london/2827852

Not too much caring if he was right or not -- just pointing out the... discrepancy between the numbers and level of chaos that was being claimed from those numbers.

I've not been keeping up with London unfortunately, I've had enough other stuff on my plate currently to keep me busy and I work three 12 hour days each weekend so...

No worries mate, I missed that yd had given a figure of 300. Yeah, I think that might be inaccurate ...

Liberty's Edge

Shifty wrote:

Hey I even offered to take people around and show them and STILL no love.

Walking tour of the Block and the back parts of Wooloomooloo and the Cross? Nah mate, I’ll pass. Once upon a time, I’m too old now.

I'm just going to stick to talking about London for the moment.


Mothman wrote:


Walking tour of the Block and the back parts of Wooloomooloo and the Cross? Nah mate, I’ll pass. Once upon a time, I’m too old now.

I'm just going to stick to talking about London for the moment.

I'm wondering that with the current fad of 'real crime' shows etc such as Underbelly that there might be an opportunity to do tours on a pay basis.

I reckon taking people past the old lock up at the High Court in Darlinghurst might be a good place to start, and the (now gone) Darlinghurst Police Station where Roger the Dodger used to work.

We could go past 'The Wall' and cover off the old rent boys and crime and villany at the park opposite next to St Vincents, and then up to the cross for Kellet St and Les Girls and the drug cartels in that area at the time.

Hmm reckon theres a few good tales in all that...

Anyhow, London, not a bad spot.

Spent some time in Oval, and Kensington Markets/Brixton/Clapham... interesting places. I can see that the places would struggle.


interesting dailey telegraph article on causes.

Liberty's Edge

Every major city in the US will look like London when Ron Paul is president.


Kortz wrote:
Every major city in the US will look like London when Ron Paul is president.

Good thing that has no chance of happening then. LOL


pres man wrote:
Kortz wrote:
Every major city in the US will look like London when Ron Paul is president.
Good thing that has no chance of happening then. LOL

It could have up until this passing year -- but I think the news from Europe and this last row over the budget and debt has put a sour taste in people's mouths where the tea party is concerned.


Abraham spalding wrote:
pres man wrote:
Kortz wrote:
Every major city in the US will look like London when Ron Paul is president.
Good thing that has no chance of happening then. LOL
It could have up until this passing year -- but I think the news from Europe and this last row over the budget and debt has put a sour taste in people's mouths where the tea party is concerned.

Really? I would think the fact that the US's credit rating dropped despite the raise in the borrowing, but due mainly to the budget cutting wasn't ENOUGH might actually get more people thinking that they might be on to something. In fact, if a clean debt ceiling increased had been passed, it might have caused even more credit rating damage. Considering that the Dems and Obama in particular were pushing for that, well, that doesn't exactly strengthen their standing.


Zombieneighbours wrote:
interesting dailey telegraph article on causes.

I find the comments sections just as enlightening as to the causes. "They're criminals because they're criminals and need to all be shot" indeed, and then they turn around and reproach the church for abandoning morals.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
pres man wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
pres man wrote:
Kortz wrote:
Every major city in the US will look like London when Ron Paul is president.
Good thing that has no chance of happening then. LOL
It could have up until this passing year -- but I think the news from Europe and this last row over the budget and debt has put a sour taste in people's mouths where the tea party is concerned.
Really? I would think the fact that the US's credit rating dropped despite the raise in the borrowing, but due mainly to the budget cutting wasn't ENOUGH might actually get more people thinking that they might be on to something. In fact, if a clean debt ceiling increased had been passed, it might have caused even more credit rating damage. Considering that the Dems and Obama in particular were pushing for that, well, that doesn't exactly strengthen their standing.

Tell you what -- I'm more than willing to discuss this further with you in a different thread if you want to start one, however I don't feel we should hijack the rioting thread to do so.

Liberty's Edge

Abraham spalding wrote:


Tell you what -- I'm more than willing to discuss this further with you in a different thread if you want to start one, however I don't feel we should hijack the rioting thread to do so.

There must be order in the riot thread!

Sovereign Court

ProfessorCirno wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:
interesting dailey telegraph article on causes.
I find the comments sections just as enlightening as to the causes. "They're criminals because they're criminals and need to all be shot" indeed, and then they turn around and reproach the church for abandoning morals.

The wage disparity thing has been getting a lot of play lately, for example:

http://www.amazon.ca/Trouble-Billionaires-Much-Money-Everyone/dp/067006419X


I certainly can have sympathy for those that have had a hard life and are frustrated. But once they decide to attack others, most often innocent others that had nothing to do with their difficulties. Well at that point, looking for sympathy is a bit late. If you want aid, certainly ask for it, make a big show, but extorting people with the threat of violence if they don't do what you want is never appropriate.

Spoiler:
"Oh, it not thus -- not thus," interrupted the being; "yet such must be the impression conveyed to you by what appears to be the purport of my actions. Yet I seek not a fellow-feeling in my misery. No sympathy may I ever find. When I first sought it, it was the love of virtue, the feelings of happiness and affection with which my whole being overflowed, that I wished to be participated. But now that virtue has become to me a shadow and that happiness and affection are turned into bitter and loathing despair, in what should I seek for sympathy? I am content to suffer alone while my sufferings shall endure: when I die, I am well satisfied that abhorrence and opprobrium should load my memory. Once my fancy was soothed with dreams of virtue, of fame, and of enjoyment. Once I falsely hoped to meet with beings who, pardoning my outward form, would love me for the excellent qualities which I was capable of unfolding. I was nourished with high thoughts of honour and devotion. But now crime has degraded me beneath the meanest animal. No guilt, no mischief, no malignity, no misery, can be found comparable to mine. When I run over the frightful catalogue of my sins, I cannot believe that I am the same creature whose thoughts were once filled with sublime and transcendent visions of the beauty and the majesty of goodness. But it is even so; the fallen angel becomes a malignant devil. Yet even that enemy of God and man had friends and associates in his desolation; I am alone.

"You, who call Frankenstein your friend, seem to have a knowledge of my crimes and his misfortunes. But in the detail which he gave you of them he could not sum up the hours and months of misery which I endured, wasting in impotent passions. For while I destroyed his hopes, I did not satisfy my own desires. They were for ever ardent and craving; still I desired love and fellowship, and I was still spurned. Was there no injustice in this? Am I to be thought the only criminal when all human kind sinned against me? Why do you not hate Felix who drove his friend from his door with contumely? Why do you not execrate the rustic who sought to destroy the saviour of his child? Nay, these are virtuous and immaculate beings! I, the miserable and abandoned, am an abortion, to be spurned, and kicked at, and trampled on. Even now my blood boils at the recollection of this injustice.

"But it is true that I am a wretch. I have murdered the lovely and the helpless; I have strangled the innocent as they slept, and grasped to death his throat who never injured me or any other living thing. I have devoted my creator, the select specimen of all that is worthy of love and admiration among men, to misery; I have pursued him even to that irremediable ruin. There he lies, white and cold in death. You hate me; but your abhorrence cannot equal that with which I regard myself I look on the hands which executed the deed; think on the heart in which the imagination of it was conceived, and long for the moment when these hands will meet my eyes, when that imagination will haunt my thoughts no more.

Sovereign Court

Hey Shifty, you didn't respond to my questions.

Maybe that translates as: "I don't know." Which would be fair enough, but I'm interested.


GeraintElberion wrote:

Hey Shifty, you didn't respond to my questions.

Maybe that translates as: "I don't know." Which would be fair enough, but I'm interested.

Sorry I had made the assumption that I had mostly addressed these issues broadly in my posts back and forth, as opposed to bullet form.

In summary what I found common in most of the guys is that we came from poor families, and invariably substance abuse in adults around us was the norm. The substance abuse (alc/meth/etc) usually meant there was little to no money about (anything gained was spent quickly, any valuables we got as gifts were soon hocked) and whether the substance abuse/lack of cash was at the root, domestic violence soon followed.

You'd form a bond with the local kids (a few blocks) and would go over to your friends house to escape the war at home, likewise if your friends house was a domestic battleground they'd come to your place and stay over a few days until it blew over.

So that was generally the basis for the fear and security aspect - fear and security from your own people.

What then followed was an exposure of these kids to a lot of violence, and a breakdown in trust - promises broken, trust shattered, and possessions simply stolen or sold off.

When the trust falls over, so does the respect for 'authority'. Simply put, the adults tend to beat the kids a lot, and we aren't talking a little love tap, we are talking beatings. Usually delivered at the hands of a significant adult... and what does that do to your respect for authority.

So you go to school to escape the drama, but a lot of the fellow classmates have deep emotional issues and want to take out their violence on others so they start trouble...

These days the teachers and Police can't really do much to save you from these kids, so some kids arm up to protect themselves against the attacks of other disadvantaged kids. Maybe even hang with their fellow childhood protectors.

Anyhow that sets the scene at the beginning, it just derails from there.

Yuo'll note at no point do I blame 'society' or 'them' or 'they', as I believe the trouble starts in our own back yards.

Some kids didn't have the dependency troubled parent(s), but they may have had the single parent out of control... or just plain absent.

Some of the factors we need to change are detailed in the post above.

How we handle Drug related crimes (use/possesion)
Reductions in the availability of liquor (in supermarkets!?)
Tough penalties on carriage and use of weapons
Better understanding/support to Domestic Violence
Support for Youth clubs and services

The 'authorities' could be more helpful, but the well-meaning social workers seem to want to insist you have a problem and them IMPEDE you getting out (strange I know) due to them having an industry that relies on having downtrodden people to justify their employment.

But at NO POINT does burning buses and trashing buildings do anything to fix the problem, and i'd prefer a beating than a stabbing - things are worse as these kids are making it worse.

Sovereign Court

Interesting stuff, thankyou.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
That's only the Irish Yanks. I'm still desperately waiting for the SNP to pick up the gun.

Will never happen CA - we're far too busy building golf courses for US tycoons ;)

BTW - Shifty - I salute you mate, a fellow voice of reason in this socio-blame culture that we're neck deep in.

As someone whose taken almost 20 years to build a life, education and career - (from very humble beginnings) the sight of the so called "disenchanted youth" destroying the same in others is pretty sickening to be honest.


Black Dow wrote:


BTW - Shifty - I salute you mate, a fellow voice of reason in this socio-blame culture that we're neck deep in.

As someone whose taken almost 20 years to build a life, education and career - (from very humble beginnings) the sight of the so called "disenchanted youth" destroying the same in others is pretty sickening to be honest.

Thanks mate; it is a hard road, sure, but once you get going it gets easier. These rioters are simply making a huge mess that will make the road a lot longer for others who just want to better their lives.


Sitting next to an ex-pat from pommie land, you should hear him go on and on about how the immigrants have ruined his country, and the riots have only made him come out with more horror stories of how he hated living next to a 'immigrant intergration' (Is that even a correct term, what?) district. Had his car broken into close to twenty times, had a knife pulled on him (and I will not use the terms he did, as I find them intolerable) by young men of ethinic minorities.

We don't know enough about what started the riots, but given what my work-mate has said, the locals of the districts were given large hand-outs by the government, and then turned around and made the districts their 'turf'.

Possibly heading into Bogan territory here, I apologise in advance!:
In their defence, they (the rioters and primary targets of Operation Trident) are less than 50% of the population, the migrant-descended families coming from the Middle East and Africa, and are effectively dropped into an alien culture thanks to Government ineptitude, earning a lot or ire and resentment from the locals who see these 'freeloaders' getting new houses, cars and free medical care when they themselves are struggling to make ends meet, rather than being slowly brought into their new homeland and being educated on the social and cultural ettiquette of their new home.

Listening to my work-mate, I can see how the contempt of the british has been simmering for a long, long time, but at the same point, actual refugees, those fleeing persecution and violence, should be wanting to put as much distant from their former culture as they could, rather than demanding the institution of the same religious courts that helped bring about the current predicaments of their former homelands.

Looking at it from 'their' point of view, it's an alien culture, the people are strange and don't like them for the actions of the criminals who abuse the system to get a free ride into the country, pushing real refugees into a no-win situation between feel-good government policies, wide-spread contempt and hatred of their minority and political point-scoring. My heart goes out to those people who honestly come to England, or Australia, for that matter, to escape their old lives. My loathing goes out to those who use the system to get into the countries as freeloaders to perpetuate the same vicious cycles that made their own countries dysfunctional.

I honestly believe in the Police. They face an unrelenting battle against people who call them 'Pigs' and far worse, are constantly assaulted, spat on, insulted and generally treated like invaders for simply trying to uphold the laws of the land. Perhaps if the 'offenders' tried having respect for not only their 'people', but the country that deigned to take them in and take care of them (remember, any country is free to pull out of the U.N. charter and start shipping refugees to where-ever they wish, something would-be touchy-feely types should remember!) and they might in turn find the government and people of the land they have come to might be more understanding of their culture shock.

Then again, I have had the unfortunate experience of having to lay into three men of the lebanese origin to pull them off an off-duty female police officer whom had booked one of them for drink-driving a few days ago.

She recieved forty-two stitches to her face alone, lost eight teeth and will have permanently diminished vision in her right eye for the rest of her life. They broke two ribs, both collar-bones, dislocated one of her shoulders and caused internal bleeding from when they were jumping up and down on her.

For 'assaulting' these men to get them off the police officer, I almost received a conviction of assault. For the past six years, I have been harrassed by their families and been targeted by them as a 'racist'. I've had my car broken into several times and s#+$ smeared over the seats and windows. I've had a petrol bomb thrown at my place of work. I have been assaulted several times, despite eight restraining orders against them and their families, and had several teeth chipped, multiple injuries requiring stitching and come out of my house in the morning to find my dog cut up and mutilated and spread out across my front door-step.

I consider these mugs to be animals. I do not consider the Lebanese or the other minorities to be coming into Australia to be anything other than honest refugees until proven otherwise. To do otherwise would be to become the very same hateful creature the people who I speak of are.

Dealing with this sort of 'arrogant immigrant', it is very hard to feel sympathy for the rioters in England, but I will ask everyone involved in this thread to simmer down and wait. We don't know enough about what is going on to comment, and unless somebody is going to stand up and say "I live in this district, and it is like this ..... ", none of us can truly say what the situation is or what is the root cause.

I apologise if I offend anyone, but this is a rather volatile issue, and I happen to feel quite strongly about it.

Please do not demonise the Police for trying to keep the majority of people safe from a small sub-group within a minority who abuse their position for personal gain and care nothing for the people around them.

Please do not demonise a racial minority for being the scape-goats of political point-scoring and grand-standing, who are now being cut adrift by their government for reasons beyond any hope of their control.


Hopefully no need to apologise mate - you've bigger stones than me for dealing with the above with dignity and within the law...

As I read your story I could honestly feel my anger rising for you... However I'll keep my comments in check for fear of genuinely offending.

Sovereign Court

Gern Blacktusk wrote:
snip... stuff about immigrants...snip...

You may have got the wrong end of the stick here, or perhaps I have.

The rioters are people of any colour and ethnicity from a set of predominantly black neighbourhoods. There is little evidence that they are immigrants and the impression I am getting from the news is that it is a British-born set of looters and rioters.

The trigger was the killing of a black Briton and the original protest which the rioters hijacked was mainly from a black British community.

Migration doesn't seem to have played a role here.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Immigration is almost irrelevant to these riots.

Source: I live here.

Sovereign Court

This stuff, I like.


GeraintElberion wrote:
This stuff, I like.

+1


GeraintElberion wrote:
This stuff, I like.

I have friends involved in the clean up. Wish I could be their to help.


For those that might have a masochistic interest in what the posters are discussing about their history, I believe this is the thread they are referring to:
TPK'S AND DM SAVES... DO YOU OR DON'T YOU?

It apparently was mod'ed several times, so I don't know how accurate a picture one can get, but I'll leave it up to each person to draw their own conclusions.

Now that everyone can examine what facts remain if they wish, hopefully we can drop this part of the discussion. And get back to the on-topic discussion.


Gern Blacktusk wrote:
Sitting next to an ex-pat from pommie land, you should hear him go on and on about how the immigrants have ruined his country,

That's irony for you


Gern-

WOW. That's quite an experience. I'm not sure I would have been able to handle it with as much restraint as you, especially when it comes to your dog.

Alexander-

Your thoughts?


IIPCC: No, evidence that mark duggan opened fire on police officers. Bullit lodged in police officers radio was a through and through, from another officers weapon.

Sovereign Court

Has the officer involved ever claimed he was fired on? I thought it was a feared for life shoot first situation.


Robert Hawkshaw wrote:
Has the officer involved ever claimed he was fired on? I thought it was a feared for life shoot first situation.

The firearms officers has never claimed they where fired on.

However, information was packaged to imply it. The implication in much of the media has been that it he did.

It is interesting because it has started to change the narrative of his death.


525 arrested.

]The riots also claimed their first death — a 26-year-old found shot dead in a car.[/quote wrote:

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