Julix's page

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Necroing since it's still a good idea... -- I'd have a special quiver that only holds 10 arrows and has a second bottom in which the balm is. To keep action economy the same you'd spend a move to activate the quiver (i.e. pull a thing that opens the second bottom, similar to how you pull out those plastic thingies from toys with batteries) and then the standard to press down the arrows into the balm. By the time it's your turn again you're good to go.

For an extra 200 gp they're already coated with ghost salt (which is compatible since one is a blanch the other a balm and it's useful if you don't have a +1 bow already).

Alternatively for 400 gp we can have those 10 arrows be magical +1 (thus not needing the ghost salt blanch) and getting more damage and to hit (again unless you already have a +1 bow).

If you're really desperate for damage you can add undead bane for another +1 cost (including masterwork that's 175.05 gp per arrow), which adds 2d6+2 more damage and +2 more to hit.

1780.5 gp for 10 arrows (+1 undead bane and Holy weapon balm) totalling +3 to hit, arrow-base (i.e. 1d6 or 1d8 + str if comp) + 2d6 + 3 + 2d4 (let's ignore the additional 1d4 points of damage the following round since the enemy won't fail their DC10 Reflex save) => in the ballpark of 9 to 32 damage each!

It's a bit like combining a nerfed version of holy ghost touch and bane for the price of just bane. - plus sucks on action economy side... so I guess it's fair enough.

"Your speed depends mostly on your size and your armor." - Except it doesn't. Race maybe... Size doesn't seem to matter.

I skimmed through an Old thread on Wizard/Rogue/AT - which brought me here. I reflected on how much has changed in the last three years...

Unchained Rogue is just so much better at a lot of stuff compared to the regular rogue, that I'm guessing he'd also be the best option now for mix like this, but then I remember the minor and major magic rogue tricks and what not...

When's the last time you saw a rogue-like class mixed with levels in a magic-class and to what success?

Is unchained rogue now definitively the best option, or are there new exciting ways to get the sneak attacks (say brawler, or slayer, or what have you).

Is there a newer version of the guide than this?

What about making your mount your ward? Mine has lost two mounts before, he'd promise this one he'll try his best to keep it safe (and has since learned mounted combat to deliver) - worth a -1 AC to save the squishy mount?

Prepare for necro:

Someone was asking how to do it without a dip - here's how: be really really high level... wow.

32. Because here failing to beat armor class is considered a miss... even if you hit that guy's plate mail full on right in the center - merely failing to penetrate it or do any harm.

33. Because they stole your heart, and ever since then you've missed... them a lot.

Note the Core Rulebook is only a good use of this code, if you're into hard copies. If you like the PDF, get the humblebundle instead (includes core book and others at even just 1 dollar!).

If you like PDF files, I recommend paying just above average (currently about 18 bucks) to unlock a bunch of things, unless you both live in the US (and thus the shipping isn't stupidly expensive) and want something physical in which case make it 25 bucks (note: budget an additional 10 to 20 for shipping). Of course pay more if you both feel like it and can afford to.

Then continue the shopping spring on here getting what ever wasn't included with the discount...

However, if you are buying something physical anyways (and thus pay shipping cost) then how about adding this for 2(!?!?!) bucks: ayers

If I didn't have to pay so much shipping (to Canada), I'd totally buy that last one... with or without 10 % discount :D

Happy Shopping!

But isn't 8k absurdly high for what it does? Or am I just saying that because at 500 gp I was still wondering whether it was worth it or not for a particular character that didn't depend on bluff... maybe. Still 8k seems steep.

I don't think you take aspects of a category. You take "urban" not "urban (buildings)" but yes, I do think it would apply. The rules say when there's overlapping terrain they don't stack, you use the higher bonus that you have. However, it still is really up to the GM. Talk with them.

Update: I misunderstood Psychic Searcher, turns out I can't take Eidetic Recollection until level 11, knowledge monster is out.

Straight paladin lancer works really well (power attack, spirited charge). - One level cavalier for mounted combat also works, bringing it all together at level 5 (rather than 7), then Furious Focus, rest undecided, probably Extra Lay on Hands (for more smiting). One level of Oracle delays Power-Attack Damage gains a little bit, but it's not too bad. Wand of Cure Light for out of combat healing.

Still haven't seen enough things on the oracle list that I loved to feel that's what I'd want, but straight Paladin lancer is just so one-sided...

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Almost 20 people FAQed, seriously over almost 3 years no ruling on this?

As per first post in this thread the RAW actually is that you can't take any of them, because you don't *have* any Investigator talents to qualify for the abilities... (i.e. the wording on the other ability that says level counts as investigator for *this*, meaning Inspiration).

However, RAI must be that something that replaces a Revelation will give you *something*, so I think your interpretation is perfectly reasonable.

Edit: As for the revelations being less powerful - Eidetic Recollection allows taking 10 with all knowledge and taking 20 Cha times per day (if you don't use inspiration dice for anything else) - with +5 Charisma-mod that is a lot of knowledge, so you can be all-round Knowledge-Monster with very little investment. Sounds worthy of a revelation, no?

Edit2: Found out that Hero Labs uses Psychic Searcher as investigator level for pre-reqs - r - friend confirmed this, and that is how it will be in our game. :(

Out of curiosity, what's up with the lack of interest on this question? - Doesn't anyone play Psychic Searcher Oracles? How have you handled this in the past?

First off, thanks for the fast reply. :)

Character is currently level 4 and I am very much enjoying the Skills from Oracle and Inspiration dice from Psychic searcher, but Smite evil, high saves and swift healing is amazing as well at 20 charisma...

After some thinking:


It seems like there are four options:

1. Give up Skillmonkey and Lifelink and go full Paladin.
If I want to keep the Animal Companion I should probably go straight Paladin, however the point of having a mount instead of walking (with fleet of foot) was to counter the Lame oracle curse. Originally I wanted Oracle 4 to get the Shield Other spell but we have a 1/d magic item that can do that for four hours, and later I will be able to learn it as a Paladin spell, so I guess I could live without any Oracle levels. At the cost of giving up being a knowledge Skill monkey and Diplomancer.

He is currently cursed (by Pazuzu in addition to Oracle curse), so ingame explanation: When the curse is dispelled, for some reason the oracle spell is too and without the access to all those voices he has nothing in terms of Knowledges etc.

2. Keep some Smite/Lay on Hand/Saves and Keep Lifelink and Inspiration

Option A - Keep some Smite/Lay on Hand/Saves and go mostly Oracle
As mostly Oracle I could mix Warsighted with Psychic searcher for some fun, but Smite has been the sole reason I hit anything for any damage. 1/d has been almost sufficient because our Sorceress kept running out of spells fast, but that stopped being the case at level 4. Pal 4 gets me Channel Wrath (Su) for up to 4 smite / day. If I give up the Animal Companion I would not need Pal 5 or above. Still Pal 4 / Ora X is quite a heavy dip. Pal 2 / Ora X gets only 1 smite per day but more Ora spells, so as long as Ora spells buffs work well, this too might be an option.

Lifting the curse of Pazuzu with *Remove Curse* also lifts a curse by a Fey creature that he suffers from, but also breaks the tie to the First World, thus taking out Fey Foundling, Fey Taken.

Option B - Keep Inspiration and go mostly Paladin
Ora 4 or less. - This is basically the original, minus a cavalier level and boon companion.

Limiting Ora to 2 makes Aura of Justice come in earlier. Is an Animal Companion at char lvl-2 still viable?

3. Give up Smite/LoH/Grace and go Straight Oracle
Suddenly back to being a full caster. Have not looked at this option closely, but with 20 Cha I really should have, as my DC would be rather awesome, meaning I could even cast things that affect enemies (i.e. debuffs etc).

The lawful force that gives him his paladin powers is unhappy about the characters chaotic ways and being so attached to Desna, while Desna is very happy and cleanses him of the fey influence and grants him more spell powers.

4. Die an epic death (and build a new character that does not depend on sources outside of those that are allowed). (Religion / Jade Regent spoiler)
[Spoiler]Cursed by Pazuzu but knows how to summon him. Has heavy guilt issues of having failed friends in the past who are now dead. Asks Pazuzu to lift his curse and burden and resurrect his friends, but failes the will check and becomes a follower of Pazuzu himself, replacing all levels with Anti-Paladin for a sooner-or-later showdown with his Friends that they hopefully survive and he does not...


Option 4 would be fun for a dream scene, but I do not have a new character I am itching to play, so this is out.

Option 3 is one that I have not looked into a lot yet. What is it like to play a full caster? Our Battle Oracle recently buffed himself from 16 to 22 str (and large size) in two spells, capable of doing silly amounts of damage. I could take Reduce Person and become a flying Archer type? Slight change of stats with less STR and more DEX... Sounds doable, but I would need some pointers as for how to build that. -- Devine Favor gets bigger... Prayer is nice... This is a real option with some more advice!

Option 1 is probably out, because Knowledge checks are awesome, and 3 skills / level just will not cut it... Although without an Animal Companion I could skip Ride and Handle Animal, so I would still be able to do Diplomacy, Perception and one other...

One of Option 2 variants seems to be what I want. This means I will not have to change class levels around right now, as either is fine with 2 levels of the other. However, the decision between Pal 2(or 4) / Ora X and Ora 2-4 / Pal X should happen soon unless there are feats that either will benefit from. However, either will benefit from Magical Knack trait; Pride drawback can pay for it.

Just words... So many words. I should probably just build all the options and see how they compare.

I have decided that I will look at straight Pal X, Ora X, Ora 2/Pal X, Ora 3/Pal X, Ora 4/Pal X, Pal 2/Ora X, and Pal 4/Ora X as options and build them all and see what I get or miss out on.

I do not have any experience with full casters, so any advice for Ora X would be much appreciated.

First off: Sorry this is so long, but it's important to me, and I'm unsure how to solve this crisis on my own.

Imagine the following: it takes you forever to come up with a longterm plan for your character, while the game (Jade Regent) is already going on (halfway through final dungeon, brink of level 4). You're starting to get comfortable with a plan, then the rules change and sources become limited to these: Core, APG, and with GM's OK ACG, ARG, UC, UM, UC, UE, and Unchained, Jade Regent Players Guide, and finally Player Companion: Varisia Birthplace of Legends.

While that's by no means a stingy list, some core pieces of the build fall out.

Here is the build as planned:



Oracle (Psychic Searcher) + Paladin (Oath of Vengance)

Stat: Str 13, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 19 (increases to Cha, Str, Wis)

Traits: Rescued(koya), Fate's Favored; [via drawback: Helpful,(Two World Magic: Prestidigitation)]
Drawback: Fey Taken, (Naive)

1 Ora1: Mystery(life), curse(lame), revelation(Life Link), 1st Spells
Feat: Fey Foundling
2 Pal1: Detect/Smite Evil, Good Aura
3 Pal2: Grace (cha to saves), Lay on Hands
Feat: Extra Revelation(Channel)
4 Ora2: Inspiration (Ex)
5 Cav1: Challenge 1/day, mount, order(Dragon), In or Out of the Saddle (Ex)
Feat: Boon Companion
6 Pal 3: Aura of courage, divine health, mercy (fatigued)
7 Pal 4: smite evil 2/day, 1st Spell, Vengance
Feat: Ride-By Attack
8 Pal 5: mount
9 Ora 3: Psychic Talent (Su)
Feat: Spirited Charge
10 Or 4: 2nd Spells
11 Pal 6: mercy (diseased)
Feat: Flagbearer
12 Pal 7: smite 3/day
13 Pal 8: Aura of Resolve
Feat: Combat Reflexes
14 Pal 9: mercy (Poisoned)
15 Pal 10: Smite 4/day
Feat: Bodyguard

The following won't be available.

4x Traits & Drawbacks: Helpful (makes Bodyguard chain useless), and (important for rp reasons) Two World Magic: Prestidigitation, Fey Taken, Naive

3 x Feats: Fey Foundling (+2 hp / dice of healing received!), Boon Companion (+4 levels to animal companion), Flagbearer (+1 to hit and dmg)

2x Equipment: Meditation Crystals (recharge lay on hands using channels, time and little money); Armored kilt (with breast plate, good stand in until mithral fullplate becomes affordable).

Self-Healing is the of this build, so losing Fey Foundling is really hard. At lvl 15 Lay on Hands goes from 20-45 hp (includes halfling alt racial) to 10-35 hp, which is quite a drop, no? Further, not having meditation crystals severely reduces Lay on Hands/day.

Boon companion gives the animal companion a chance in hell to survive in hell... - My riding dog bit the dust during level 3 and had been getting a lot of attention from pond monsters to undead through out his short life time. So I figure the animal companion will need to be tough...

With armor my 15 base speed becomes 10, and with a loadstone that I've acquired it's temporarily at 5 ft. I really need a mount badly, that will live, not sure what will do.

How to go on?

With boon companion out, maybe I should consider taking the weapon bond instead of mount, dropping the cavalier level, and hoping for Leadership at level 7 for something intelligent that will let me ride it. I could replace the Outrider alt racial with Fleet of Foot for 15 ft base speed in armor. Intelligent beings need diplomacy not handle animal, right?

With Fey Foundling out, should I try and find other sources of boost for HP recovery, or de-emphasize the blood bank thing?

Help would be much appreciated!

I read it as option A (i.e. you can use anything from the list regardless of level); however, that makes it hard to explain why such s++$ty ones are on that list too. who'd take hard to fool (reroll 1 sense motive check per day) when you can take empaty (always reroll sense motive and your inspiration dice on top and some mind reading stuff)?

CampinCarl9127 wrote:

Why can't you spend 15 mins at midnight? Just wake up for a bit. Or take that shift of the watch. It's pretty simple. As long as that entire time isn't interrupted you can re prepare spells with no issue.

Yes, you can cast all your spells around 11:30 then re prepare them half an hour later.

My main issue was realism, i.e. why would he wake up then? But would he have to be awake? Maybe his sleep/dreams are interrupted by meaningful dreams or meditation around midnight? - Would that be sensible?

My oracle is affected by Desna, so I'd chose midnight, but of course he won't always be able to spend 15 minutes meditating at midnight - is he like the cleric limited to that time slot? i.e. if he can't get it then, he'll have to wait until the day after?

I don't remember anything like this from AD&D, didn't know that devine casters were limited to specific(ish) time of day while spellcasters can have 1 day every 8 hours, if their party is up for it, and they have a sleep disorder, or ways of getting tired enough, though I guess RAW there isn't a limit to how many hours you can rest in a day, right?

Anyway, what's up with having to chose a time at all to prep spells? I'd get for "this is the soonest you can do it again" - but there isn't exact enough language that says what "as soon as possible" after that time means... So if I choose midnight and I blow all my spells at 11:30 pm, I get to meditate for 15 min, just past midnight and regain all my spells, right? - And if I don't, but go sleep instead and wake up late afternoon, could I still prep spells then?

Have there been any rulings?

While I agree with CampinCarl9127 for PFS, I'm with Ciaran Barnes for homegames. I might use it as a heuristic for checking what kind of GM I'm dealing with.

"Assuming a player asks to have a spear where the shaft is darkwood (thus reducing the weight) and the tip is cold iron (to overcome certain DR) and the RAW says only the most "prevalent" type applies when using multiple materials, how would you reply to the player?"

A. Rules are rules and/or I don't like to think about it too much or change things, because slippery slope - "book says only one works, it's a stabby spear, so cold iron. But you can pay more to fluff it as darkwood, if you want."

B. Realism is good, working out details doesn't bother me, just don't ask that mid battle or in a dramatic RP moment and we'll be fine: "The spear tip isn't wood, so I'll substract a dagger of weight from the shaft for darkwood price, so 5 lbs * 10 gp/lbs = 50 gp for a darkwood spear shaft + 4 gp for the cold iron spear tip + 300 masterwork = 354 gp, weight 5/2+1= 3.5 lbs" -- says the barbarian "what about my great-axe shaft, can I make that darkwood?" --- "Well rules say no, but I guess you could shave off half a pound to a pound for the price of 10 to 20 gp, assuming you decide that during creation of the masterwork axe." --- "Thanks."

C. Simple, permissive. "Sure. So 60 gp darkwood + 4 gp cold iron + 300 mwk = 364 gp, weight 6/2 = 3 lbs. Anything else?" -- "What about my battle axe?" -- "Do you want the flavor or the fluff, cause rules call it out as example where it doesn't give a benefit, but Mithral would work."

What other replies can you imagine?

D. Anti-min-max "Well that depends. What's your strength?" (i.e. if it doesn't matter I'd allow, but if it does I won't kinda thing?)

Not sure it works too too well as a heuristic...

Well riding dog doesn't cut it - other things cut riding dog...

The Riding dog had been outdamaging my character at earlier levels, but lately (the last few battles) it didn't even have to do anything to provoke the enemy's attention. It would just get attacked a lot, and most recently got shredded to bits. - Each time before it was even our turn.

An undead dude stood in a hallway, his prey ran past the armored little man on a dog, who says "you shall not pass" - so it attacks the dog?!

A beast holds its breath in the water and waits and waits until it sees a light to one side of the pond. It jumps out (gets a suprise round although everyone's staring at the water while we're trying to carefully walk around it) and attacks not the guy that holds the lucerne hammer with a light spell on it, but his dog... claw. Our half-orc battle oracle runs to his back and attacks but doesn't get flank bonus, as it wasn't my turn yet. As the monster's initiative was higher it gets to go again before the rider or mount can react, claw claw (well into the minus hp at this point) and follows up with a bite (despite having 3 other targets in reach, one of whom just threw a stone that caused 14 damage, one barely missed with a big axe, but it just keeps going at the dog, knocking it to -17 hp (2 past his constitution) - It has a bar where intelligence ability should be (i.e. insects have only instincts), so I guess tactics (i.e. attack things that are attacking you, rather than things that are already dying) isn't necessarily to be expected.

Mechanically it was fair, rationally it was plausible, but story wise Rags the riding dog had personality and bonds with the cast, so to have him die to some large pond insect is unsatisfying, yet it happened.

So the question is more so than before what mount do I get now, how do I make it actually survive? My speed without mount is 10 ft/round, and the skills are also invested in mount handling.

The GM also switched up the rules for which sources are available, so I have to change a few things in the build which includes changing my 1st and 3rd level feats.

Mounted-combat + ride-by with the hopes of being able to move such that I don't have to stand right in front of someone to take their full attack, and if that happens at least I can try to negate one of the attacks


Combat Reflexes + Bodyguard to give +4 AC?

EDIT: Oh wait, Helpful halfling isn't from an allowed source, so hat makes Bodyguard much less useful, so I guess mounted combat route, though that makes my ACP matter for avoiding hits, which sucks, given my preference for this character to be in heavy armor...

Animal companion doesn't become an option for a bunch of levels... and boon companion isn't an allowed feat anymore either, since he doesn't own the book it's from.

Flag bearer is out, too -- more importantly Fey Foundling is out (the reason I have 2 feats to spend now), and that one was essential to my build.

Another update:

My GM heard from an employee of the German company that sells Pathfinder there, that there's potential legal issues with d20pfsrd, so he no longer accepts that as a source and instead we only use what we actually own a copy of (mainly his stuff).

The list of sources is being changed to this List

Core, APG, and with GM's OK ACG, ARG, UC, UM, UC, UE, and Unchained, Jade Regent Players Guide, and finally Player Companion: Varisia Birthplace of Legends.

Which means Community Guardian falls out (no retraining necessary here, so I guess that's nice), as does Slow Runner (so no change for 1st level feat availability. The "extra revelation: life link" becomes a normal revelation). Fey Foundling is no longer available, and that's a big deal to me. Same is true for Helpful Halfling, though surely there are better traits out there. Losing this would push me away from the bodyguard chain, and I guess towards the mounted combat feats. Lack of boon companion makes the cavalier dip rather pointless, and is quite a severe debuff to my Animal Companion, that I'm not too happy about. Though if he allows leadership for a mount, I could go with a bonded weapon instead.

As the rules change is happening in the middle of the last location of part 1 of an AP I have until the end of it to finalize changes, and get to use stuff until then, which is worth something, I guess.

Still this messes a fair bit with the character concept, so I'm not sure I'll continue after the end of the AP, especially as the reason for the restriction seems rather silly. If it was about power or such I could see changing specific things, but while the options I used are more exotic they're not really more powerful than those used by the others. The Rogue just got upgraded to unchained. Him and the Battle oracle regularly hand out large amounts of damage (while even my mundane riding dog regularly outdamges me and trips on top), and the sorcerer is good until she runs out of spells, well... She'll get powerful soon enough, being full caster and all.

Cevah wrote:
Julix wrote:
Immediate obviously would be a huge buff, because then you could activate it and instantly get +5 on anything you want to do with your standard. -- Note though that this isn't a failing "immediate action example" but rather would be a house-ruled buff to the ability, and if you read carefully something I suggested only adding at a cost (i.e. a revelation to upgrade the ability perhaps). Same goes for the "bonus by concentration" - by "if you wanted" I really meant if the GM allows/wants.

It is a failing, since you only changed the effect to be immediate. To work as you say, you also have to add in the free action on the recipients to bounce the effect to the needed one. Normally, that cannot be done until their turn.


Sorry for imprecise wording. I meant to only change the time to switch the bonus around be an immediate (or free if it's your turn) and the effect time to work as it does now (i.e. anytime between activating it and the start of the activators next turn).

Thanks for correcting it.

Hello community!

Sorry for the wall of text. I tried to make good use of paragraphs so it's not too hard to read, but it's long.

I came back to the thread, because my character reached level 2 meaning (in Pathfinder Society) that I have to now finish up on making decisions and commit to a build (i.e. right now I can still change anything about the character).

Sofar play as Magus(Kensai) 1 has been fun. +8 to hit (+0 BAB, +1 size, +4 dex, +1 WF, +1 mwk, +1 arcane-pool-magic - additional +2 if AoO) meant reliable tripping and some disarming - else bad damage 1d6-1(+1 arcane pool magic). Having just 1 first level slot is harsh, but the Shield spell I put there has been useful.


shroudb wrote:

Just remember that kensai cannot cast in armor (which you will probably want to wear) so you will have spell failure this way.

And in cases of spells like blend, vanish, etc where spell failure could mean death, eh... I don't know if I would personally count on them

The lightest armors (my current one) have 0 % ASFC at the cost of AC, but good heavier ones like Darkcloth Leather or Mithral Chain only have 5 and 10 %, so he'll still be able to cast most of the time.

Vanish at CL1 is just one round, which to me isn't worth a standard action. Blend is Elf-only (I'm Halfling) but it's cool enough for a wand and lasts long enough to be cast before fighting begins (especially given that it ends as soon as I attack), so wouldn't matter either way.

I only have one spell slot, and True Strike has no Somatic component. However, I do like keeping Shield in case things get tight. But the reason I'm concerned with ASFC is because Acid Splash was supposed to be my ranged sneak attack in surprise round option, messing it up over ASFC would suck.

That wouldn't happen if I used the spell from the Rogue Talent, right? However dropping Magus for Minor (acid splash) and Major Magic (longarm) doesn't have enough daily uses given the multiclassing, so I'll be using UMD a lot where the Magus wouldn't have to (given careful wand choice).

What would I get from not taking a Magus(Kensai) level? If I stick with rogue everything earlier (including earlier dex to damage) and +1d6 SA and Rogue's Edge before going into Opportunist, rather than after, at the cost of a feat (EWP:EBS) and three rogue talents (WF:EBS, Minor and Major Magic, if I still make those things a priority). What is the early edge worth?


Use Headbutt!! wrote:
If you take the Rake arcehtype instead of thug, it actually frees up a weapon enhancement (since you no longer need merciful) as well as a feat (enforcer). My point was that the big draw of thug (frightening on an intimidate) is something unchained rogues already get for free at level 5. [...]

First note that this isn't completely "free" it's at the cost of taking another Rogue's Edge at 5th level (or in my case not dipping the first level).

Note that there's a need of beating the shaking DC by 10 and then a willsave (DC 10+Intimidate Ranks) to avoid the effects, which isn't the case for Thugs. Still good point on freeing up resources, not needing to focus on non-lethal, etc.

Assuming despite being small (-4) I can reliably beat DC by 10, it could makes Dazzling display attractive too, for sending people into fear en-masse, before pounding on them with Shatter Defenses. At the same time, while getting this edge early means giving up Kensai, it also gives more value to the Weapon Focus provided by the dip.


It seems I'm not yet done worrying about this build.

Must haves:
- Rogue 4 (for dex to hit and damage, and major debuff)
- Opportunist 5 (for SA on AoO)
- CR (for having AoO).
- ExWP:EBS (for hitting)

This leaves open:
- 1 level before Opportunist and 2-3 levels after
- 4 feats (unless a class or rogue talent grants the above)
- 2 rogue talents (unless used for combat feat or archetype)

Ideas people above have shared:

*Making use of Aid another:
- Aid another to AC feat: Bodyguard (and benevolent armor) seem worth it, since I already am getting CR and will have a reach weapon and armor spikes, so I'll be able to provide some good bonuses to AC.
- Aid another to hit rogue talent: Got your Back (Ex) - sadly a No-Go in PFS, as it's an old rogue talent, right?

*Having Magic available:
- 0th spell: Acid Splash for sneak attacks in surprise round, ignoring SR and many DR.
- 1st spell: Infernal Healing (wand). Shield, Longarm, Grease, ...
Reached via Caster Dip, UMD and/or Minor and Major Magic Rogue talents.

*Hitting hard:
- Power Attack: up to -3 to hit / +9 damage - either with 13 str (11+2 STR enhancing belt) or 2 levels dip (e.g. Ranger(Freebooter) / Slayer(Sniper) for 2-H Fighting style) - Expensive but powerful and opens up other feats, like Cornugon Smash.

*Hitting bluntly:
- Weapon Versatility (Blunt, requires WF), (Bludgeoneer / Merciful weapon enchantment), Sap Adept, Sap Master (double sneak attack damage when using non-lethal-blunt SA on flatfooted enemy), (Enforcer turns this into a lot of shaken-ness, but flanking isn't FF, so needs source of reliable flatfootedness).

*Hitting traumatizingly (despite the -4 from size):
- Shatter Defence (requires WF,DazDis) to make flat footed when already shaken.
- Enforcer (free intimidate when attacking with nonlethal weapon, dmg = # of rounds of shaken)
- Rake Archetype (Give up a SA dice to demoralize, and another / +5 bonus wanted)
- Thug ARchetype (Shaken lasts +1 round and can turn 4+ rounds into 1 round of frightened instead)
- 5th Rogue level for Edge in Intimidate

*Hitting close:
- Brawler or Monk (or Armor Spikes) all allow to threaten nearby, but have different side effects. Brawler can advance sneak attack progression or grant martial flexibility. Monk gets extra feat; Master of Many Styles 2 can get Snake Fang to trigger (unarmed) AoO when missed in melee combat, which synergizes well with Opportunist, the blunt-nonlethal-feat chain above, but not the Elven Branched Spear / current concept of the build.

*Other things menionted:
- Riving Strike (debuff versus spells)
- Spear dancer (debuff to hit)


Here's what I had sofar:

1 Feat: CR (retrained from WFin), Magus(Kensai)1: EWP:(EBS), WF:(EBS), CD (+1 AC), Spells, Pool.
2 uRogue(Counterfeit Mage)1: RFin (Dex to hit), +1d6 SA, Magical Expertise (Ex)

3 F: Bodyguard, uR2: Talent: (??Combat trick: Arcane Strike??)
4 uR3: RFin (Dex to Dmg), Danger sense +1, +2d6 SA
5 F: Defensive Combat Training, uR4: Debilitating injury, Talent(fixed) Signature Wand, uncanny dodge

6-10 Opportunist 1-5: Exploitive maneuver, trap spotter, excellent aid (+3), Fit in, Exceptionally lucky (+3), +4d6 SA, Opportunity attacker. F7,9: ??Dazzling Display?, ??Shatter Defences??

11 R5: Edge (intimidate), +5d6 SA, F: Enforcer (used with merciful weapon)
12 R6: Danger sense +2, Talent (??Stand up??)

Checking in:

Level 2: like my experience in level 1, except now I have CR and SA and many skill points, and trapfinding (or intimidation some sort with Thug or Rake).

Many 1st level magus spells available as wands/scrolls. Casting while stabbing someone with armor spikes (at -2) can be a thing.

Level 3: Adds defense to my Party, and I considered taking "Got your Back (Ex)" as a talent, but I guess in PFS you can't take old talents anymore? - I'm not using my swift for anything though, so I figured since as Kensai I actually qualify for Arcane Strike it might be worth it, then realized it's casterlevel-dependent, meaning I'm getting much less bang/buck out of this than a bard would, so I added questionmarks.

Level 4:
Attack with +1 Elven Branched Spear at 1d20+10 (5dex,2bab,1size,1wf,1magic; occasional +2 on AoO, +1 pool) for 1d6+9 (7dex,1strike,1magic; occ. +1 pool) +2d6 SA damage.

So 11-30 attack for 10-15 dmg (12-27 w/ SA) on hit, up to 6 times a round purely hypothetically (i.e. 1 attack and 5 AoO's).

Level 5: Adds debuffs, then Level 6 etc Opportunist stuff, which is going to be colorful, but rather clear (other than which feats to take). No change in the magic department, still dependent on juggling wands. Everything feat wise after 5th lacks drive/purpose, but any wand can be my best friend for the day, so there's probably enough flexibility to cope with that.

At this point how am I getting opportunities to hit people? For example, when they get back up from my trip attacks. I could reconsider adding Greater Trip, to get some on their way down? Or maybe I could try and fit in some of the recommendations from earlier in the thread.


I've given the fear based rogues (Rake and Thug) some thought...

I could drop my magic support and go full fear:
Rake 1-5 (for roge edge on intimidate), dazzling display somewhere along the way and then shatter defenses at 7. I'm not sure if in this build the Opportunist is even worth it at all though.

I could keep the Magus level (gives me WF:EBS and EWP:EBS aterall), which is needed for Dzzling Display, and take the Thug and grab a +1 Merciful as soon as it's available at Fame 27, about level 5.
(At 2 pp / game and 3 games / level ~> halfway through level 4 (or level 9 at 1 pp / game), assuming I then have enough spare cash.)
I'd have Brutal Beating (Ex) by then, and at 5th level add (Combat Trick: Enforcer).

I'm missing out on the Half-Elvish Skill Focus, their medium size, and they wouldn't need exotic weapon proficiency if they just used two saps to begin with... Bolas as ranged weapons? Can you sneak attack with those?

Anyway, I feel my build isn't synergizing well enough with those concepts, though maybe I just lack some understanding of how it actually works in practice.


Any guidance on finalizing the build would be much appreciated!


I didn't consider the standard action... Does that mean a sword with the flaming property has to be activated with a standard action before it can be used, unless you want to run around with a torch?

So is then my mechanically optimal solution to just not worry about it for now and store it on my back/mount, as it's 0 gp...

Ups, I'm sorry Fromper. Good catch.

He's dex based (without agile maneuvers) so tie up won't have good chances to work.

DR wasn't the main problem, since there's adamatine bleech in the beginning - it was his regeneration (2 hp/round) and damage low (1d6-1 = average 2.5-ish), so just beating on him doesn't work, because he gets quite dangerous once hp get low enough, as his poison attacks Dex, the fighting stat of this poor fella.

I guess part of the answer for a fair fight would be it's CR 2 which is hard to handle as a single 1st oder 2nd level PC.

Stealing the box seems to be the most doable/simple solution, not sure what he could do to keep you from stealing it.

There don't seem to be solutions that staight up prevents regeneration. Don't know of any cheap always available poisons...

150 gp for a riding dog. Throw a net or two on he imp, the dog's bite's trip it, and flanking you can kill it.

Good idea also with the oil of bless weapon, as it's always available, though the blanch is free since it's already included in the adventure.

The dog can trip even if due to DR he doesn't do damage, right? Could you apply oil to the teeth?

Okay, so currently the riding dog is still contributing a lot and meaningfully in combat (trip is awesome and it still happens often enough. I considered "aiding another" to get his trip to work, it's often better than my main attack (since I have 13 str, and no lance yet, just a lucerne hammer). 0 ACP barding is a great idea...

He's close to medium encumbrance though, so if that'll tip him over, if I can afford to loose the attacks I might just as well give him armor with ACP, right? Although I do like his current jumping abilities... I was thinking Guard archetype, for shared alerntess feat, more resillience to death (i.e. -constitution + level) and bodyguard feat for increasing rider's AC. I wanted the rider to take Bodyguard as well, so both would be giving +4 AC to one another... at first I considered Escape Routes instead, for movement free of AoO's, but I figured Bodyguard applies more often (including during AoO's), as long as he can beat AC10, which he should...

However, since the next free feat is still far away (and I haven't had too many AoO opportunities sofar, so I didn't like having CR for a long time before using it), I went with flagbearer see here, as it supports the whole party's damage output, which reduces their chance to harm us by being dead. :D

I had considered the Charger Archetype, but rejected it because the bonus feats didn't seem relevant (silly me, a paladin's 6 int mount can take any feats anyways) and I can heal fatigue with a lay on hand. - Running faster in heavier armor with more dex bonus sounds pretty damn good actually. I'll think about it.

Mounted Combat from Cavalier will help a little (also not having ACP to ride), so one good attack avoidance / round. And it grants him light armor proficiency...

So conclusion to protecting my mount: You said to make it appear less threatening, cover it in armor (and magic obviously, once I have money, for amulet of natural armor and what not).

Mithral kikko is expensive, but masterwork studded leather isn't, so good tip there :)

Edit: any medium sized mounts that are better than riding dog?

By buff I did mean beyond what is meant to happen.

I doubt getting the choice twice in 2 rounds is going to matter much, compared to the negative consequences of delaying, just leads to more usability of the ability, so I think I'm okay with this.

Immediate obviously would be a huge buff, because then you could activate it and instantly get +5 on anything you want to do with your standard. -- Note though that this isn't a failing "immediate action example" but rather would be a house-ruled buff to the ability, and if you read carefully something I suggested only adding at a cost (i.e. a revelation to upgrade the ability perhaps). Same goes for the "bonus by concentration" - by "if you wanted" I really meant if the GM allows/wants.

So imagine low skill halflings (+9 bonus at the most, because that's all you need for aid another) working on items with incredibly high DC, where only the main crafter can make good use of it. -- I guess though, there'd only be 4 helpful halflings and one halfling opportunist (who gets more bonus out of being helped, with the Fate's Favored trait to get another +1 out of Crafter's Fortune - thanks for pointing that one out). Maybe they're working with a trap (automatic reset) that casts Crafter's Fortune (1*1*500=500 gp + trap cost)... maybe the helpful halflings all have +4 bonus without the spell, and the opportunist as much as possible. Going quite off topic here, but I'm liking the direction :D

4x helpful halfling, so 1d20+4(class, 1 rank)+5(spell) >= 10 (aid another) - so auto-successs.

1x something x / Opportunist 5 gets (+16)+3 from aid another (is that total, or per helper?), +10 from ranks, +3 from class, +5 from spirit of the community, +6 from spell, +10 from take 10

Does +53 (can be boosted further by use of magical items) seem right? What could they be producing that's worth that much effort?

Also with the Fabricate spell they need to make the check, but it doesn't take more than a round, so they could do it even without house-ruling the duration to be by concentration. - 20th caster-level (for maxiumum amount of material that can be affected per casting) as a trap is 50 000gp plus crafting cost of material components*100, so 150 000 gp total as example if you want to be cranking out 3000 gp items all day long.

Except now of course the limit becomes the number of times Spirit of Community can be used per day. Lesser Ring of Revelation (Spirit of Community) that is passed around among low level oracles might work to a degree... for another 10 000 k. - Can't quite think of anything that would make it worth the trouble... Mass producing exotic armor and nice weapons for the deamons you're about to let onto the material plane?

What if instead of crafting, it was a Knowledge factory!

The 4 helpers all have a role to play in relaxing the opportunistic Brain, a few massage him, one humms a memory stimulating "oooooommmmmm" and one perpares the smoke/tea ritual such that everything is well in sync. All aid another +4 and free action to hand the spirit of the community bonus along and the Brain Knows. Maybe he has the Psychic Searcher archetype with extra revelation feats for amazing inspiration (roll d8 inspiration dice instead of d6), eidetic recollection (take 10 or take 20 if he really cares a few times per day) and tenacious inspiration (roll inspiration dice twice, keep higher), throw on empathy for good measure (knowing exactly what he is asked and why, so he can decide whether or not to answer).

So when he cares 20+highest of two d8's+19(aid)+ranks and class and such... Knowledge DCs are 20 to 30 (for really tough questions), so with 40+ (much more if you add magic items and things) he should be able to know secrets of the universe itself, right? Due to their in-tune-ness... make all the helpers community guardians so they can take turns giving that bonus. Answer questions all day long, for the powerful but not allknowing forces of the universe. :)

Anyway, enough procrastination of school work for now. ;)

Cevah wrote:

Free actions must occur in your own round. Therefore, the choice to forgo the benefit must happen on your turn. You have one chance to use it. In combat, the next in initiative cannot gain more than +2 (spirit giver & self) unless they ready an action or delay their turn. [Both will change their place in initiative order.]

Speaking can occur at any time. You can discuss what you will do.

When you choose to forgo, you select one ally to get your bonus. If you are given a bonus from someone else, I think that RAW, you cannot pass it on since it is not the bonus granted by the one with the spirit giver, but rather a second-hand recipient. Note that it talks about passing "this bonus" before it mentions the "grant" ability. RAI, I would ignore this.

As for the spirit giver, if he does a standard then a move-to-activate, I would say he gets the bonus for anything up to and including his next standard/full-round. If he does a move-to-activate then a standard, I would say he can use it up to but not including his next turn. Reasoning: He should be able to add to his own next check, which will likely be a standard action.

Out of combat, initiative is not defined, so all allies electing to "pass" can do so before any who "accept", so no issue here.


I didn't consider delaying, yes that actually does account for all the possibilities of out of combat aid, especially when combined with allowing the user to help himself in the next round.

We were trying to eliminate that inconsitency. Our solution then is a mild buff versus as written, right?

And as immediate action would be a bigger buff.

If you wanted to buff it even further you could make the bonus by concentration (everyone involved pay a move action to maintain the bonus) so that it could apply to skill checks like craft, as long as everyone is into it. And making it a move allows them to aid another as well if they can.

Now if you have 5 helpful halflings working on something they can actually cooperate with (where all the reasonably aid stacks) that's +20, +5 from the move-maintained community spirit, the skill-checking person taking 10, and plus their skill bonuses, so 35+skill bonus.

This is totally going to be a setting detail for some factory somewhere, next time I run an original story... :D

I might make the upgrades to the ability an option to take at level 3 instead of that pseudo channel.

Anyway, thanks for explaining how it's supposed to work. :)

What about this one? Pathfinder's Pouch, up to 10 lbs, 2 cubic feet... does that have to be square (or circular) or can it be any shape as long as the volume is correct? I think a small lance might fit!

Philo Pharynx wrote:
I would allow this to work with the efficient quiver, using the long slot. Then again, a lot of mages use them in my world for wands and rods and scrolls.

Do I understand correctly that the reason there's no magical fix for storing a single pole-arm is because in pathfinder raw there's no problem that needs solving (other than the subjective ugliness of it), as holsters are included and you can just "sheeth" the weapons whatever they may be? - like this guy?

In that case allowing generous uses of efficient quiver (given that you can't easily put pointy things in normal bags of holding) seems to make sense, without being unbalancing. - I've seen elsewhere on this forum someone saying they allow light weapons for first, one handed for second and two handed for large space of quiver. Dagger same size as arrow? I don't know. As discussed in that thread as well, I'd put a multiplier on it (like a few arrows / dagger?) But this is fantasy, I really don't want to have to worry about these things, nor do I want to just ignore them completely and have weapons strapped to the character's back glitching against the dungeon walls in my mental imagery. Generous efficient quiver seems good for that, but I'm not the GM.

Gisher wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
If you are dead set on an efficient quiver, you can use the Fighter's Fork for a reach/one-handed/light weapon that can be stored in it.

I love the Fighter's Fork. I just think it is cool. :)

One option that is often overlooked is the Shrinking special ability. For a one time cost of 1000 g.p. you can give your weapons the ability to shrink to dagger size. So you can shrink your polearms and store them in dagger-sized scabbards.

Yes, the fork is funny, but I'm not a trident guy.

Say with the shrinking property, does the weight change at all? spell mentions mass being reduced, but the item just says "shrinks to size of a dagger"... does shrinking include/imply change of size as per spell? Shrinking to that size changing the weight depending on what size it started out as? In the description of shrink dagger is hyperlinked to item description with 1 lbs as weight...

So is it 1 lbs or full weight or 1/x of original weight, x being how much larger original item size was?

So one more aspect then: innate or acquired? The reason I'm semi-set on riding dog is because the current Riding Dog has found his fans in the group... - If he does actually die I'll be more free to consider other options, still I have yet to find any medium sized ones that are very appealing. The dog I imagine very muscular etc. The small cat with a heavy armor wearing halfling on top running 500 ft in 6 seconds... distrubs my mental imagery.

We just had another game today, and we moshed an Attic Whisperer before all 4 players had their turn... but that involved a crit on my part, a max damage roll on the Battle Oracle's Great Axe and a severe sneak attack from our unchained rogue, so we were just quite lucky to have lined it all up so nicely. So I'm not sure about the balance, whether it'll be all that bad. I am concerned about the dog geting not just KOed but actually killed in a single attack. I'll be using shield other on him at some point, but currently the sorceress keeps wanting to be in the front line, and my oradin has some need to protect her, so it's taking priority over protecting the mount.

Currently Oracle 1 / Paladin 2, soon a level of oracle, then one level of Cavalier (with Boon Companion = 5th level companion - devine intervention?), then three more paladin (which at first don't advance the mount!) before it grants mount and the paladin levels stack again with the companion (so 8th level companion - suddenly with 6 int! devinely inspired... :D ), two more oracle levels at some point, rest paladin. Total has 4 oracle (thus Boon Companion worth it), might retrain cavalier to paladin later, but wanted early access to advancement and mounted combat feat (and animal gets light armor proficiency) and no Armor check penalty to ride anymore (making mounted combat worth it in the first place, besides for getting ride-by attack).

So Rags progression would be rather awkward: normal dog for levels 1-4, then suddenly he improves a lot, then stays the same for a couple levels, then jumps 3 levels again! - Might be worth it to accept that Rags is just a Dog and have him wait at the caravan, when things get too Dangerous and start riding something more sturdy...

Any advice? I really don't want to be caught with a dead mount...

Shrinking is absolutely amazing! thank you Gisher! I'll carry my lance in a spring loaded wrist sheeth from soon on! :

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Julix wrote:

here I was referred to asking that kind of question in a forum, so here I am.

How does anything gain the advanced template? (innate or acquired)

The advanced template is applied by the GM to a monster's Bestiary stat block in order to quickly generate a more powerful version of that monster. Technically it is never applied to a monster, only to a stat block, though people will speak of them interchangeably.

Julix wrote:
Are there ways for PCs to do it (for their mount or animal companion or bought animal) ?
No. It exists purely on the level of GM-player interactions, not character interactions. The player could certainly ask the GM "hey, could I have an advanced turtle companion instead of a regular turtle," but then the player could equally well ask for a turtle with 1000 hp. In either case the GM really shouldn't give it to you, unless the campaign is quite overpowered in other ways too.

Thanks for pointing out that it's applied to the stat block, not the creature, that's interesting. - I get that it's a hyperbolie but +1000 hp? A turtle gets high AC, so an extra +2 would matter, I guess, but I have the feeling you resent me for even asking the question. It seems like it would be appropriate when the campaign is overpowered or the characters underpowered or a mix thereof. Our party of four level 2s at the time was up against a CR 4 because we went where our characters would have gone, rather than grind random places before going where we expected the source of the plot-thingy to be. Now we're level 3 but we continue to face strange odds, held together by a battle oracle and unchained rogue doing good damage and my oradin keeping them alive as good as possible. He's lame though as such having the mount killed would really suck, so given that many of the things we face could one shot his purchased riding dog, I'm looking at how to make it work/survive.

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Julix wrote:
Is it balanced for an animal that's just equipment (to avoid it dying so much)? - What price / cost for upgrade?
Well, if you wanted a horse, a "heavy horse" is defined in the Bestiary as a regular horse with the advanced template. You should be able to find both light and heavy horses in the equipment lists. I don't think there are any other examples of this. Note that you cannot get a heavy horse as an animal companion, and if there was a standard "heavy riding dog" it would be the same way---you could buy it as equipment but not get it as an animal companion.

And at what price would you place that hypothetical heavy riding dog?

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Julix wrote:
Would it be balanced to allow a Riding Dog Animal Companion (for example Beastrider archetype of Cavalier) to get the advanced template upon reaching level 7, becoming an Advanced Riding Dog? - Seems like it would be weaker than Big Cat and many other options, and comparable to a large Wolf (without being large though).If not, would you allow it at a significant cost? If so what?

The advanced template is the equivalent of getting a belt of physical perfection +4 (64000 gp) and a headband of mental superiority +4 (64000 gp) and also an amulet of natural armor +2 (8000 gp), except that it doesn't take up slots, so you'd have to double all the prices for a grand total of 272,000 gp. Alternatively and within the rules, you could buy the actual items for a mere 136,000 gp and outfit the dog with them. (According to the Animal Archive companion quadrupeds do have belt, headband, and neck slots, so no problems there.)

EDIT: Oops, forgot that if a creature's Int is 2 or less the advanced template does not increase it. So assuming your riding dog is a normal animal (Int 2) you only need a headband of mental prowess +4 (Wis&Cha), not a whole headband of mental superiority. So reduce the totals to 224,000 for doing it slotlessly or 112,000 with actual items.

This covers the balance of the increases in a general but not a specific sense. Obviously advancing a Common Cat (which like a Riding Dog isn't a typical animal companion) the consequences would different from increasing a Tiger. -- What I'm asking is, is the advanced riding dog unbalanced compared to the wolf with the 7th level upgrade.

Wolf Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor (-1 size bonus, +1 dex); Attack bite (1d8 plus trip); Ability Scores Str 21, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.

Advanced Riding Dog Size medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +3 natural armor (+4 dex); Attack bite (1d6 plus trip); Ability Scores Str 19, Dex 19, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 10; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.

Riding dog
Pro: Smaller, Better perception check, much cuter (Cha 10), much better AC.
Con: Slower, slightly weaker.
Conclusion: yes, it's more powerful.

How about Big cat?
Big Cat Size Large; Speed 40 ft.; AC +3 natural armor (-1 size, +2 dex); Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6); Ability Scores Str 21, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6); Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.

Riding dog
Pro: Smaller, Better perception check (very slightly), a bit better AC.
Neutral: same charisma
Con: Slower, slightly weaker, incomparably weaker attacks/special attacks.

Conclusion: I'd say the Big Cat is significantly more powerful. And that's just the normal Big Cat. High level druids can get a dire big cat if I remember correctly.

As for the cost, what if I took leadership? Isn't there a version to gain cohort that advances as companion? Or straight up leadership for an advanced riding dog with levels?

Ok, so the special thing about it isn't that it can store a bunch of weapons it's that as a move action you can switch one out for another. That's pretty sweet.

How would you price a holster that just allows you to place a single polarm in extradimensional space in a way that's not in your way?

I guess mechanically it is like not even having it, as you can currently holster weapons, it's just that I get imagery glitching when I imagine the character moving with said weapons through an area and the polarm knocking things over... - So aestetically I want it gone.

Would you allow the efficient quiver to store a small character's lance (which would be equivalent of a medium sized one handed weapon with reach property)? Is it raw to allow it? Rai?

I don't understand the language of switching places in the scabbard here... link

"When the wearer draws a weapon from the scabbard, if she does not lose her grip on it (keeping it in her hands at all times), as a move action she can have it switch places with another weapon in the scabbard. If the wearer has the Quick Draw feat, she can do this as a swift action. If the wearer loses her grip on a weapon drawn from the scabbard, that weapon can't switch places with another weapon until it has been, sheathed in the scabbard of many blades and drawn again."

Does it mean I can only pull out whatever weapon is at the top?

Hey there,

According to the weapon table all weapon prices include appropriate sheeth or holster, so that goes for polarm too. You can just sheeth it somehow. Strange and ugly, but mechanically sound.

I dislike the mental image of it, but given that this is fantasy I feel there must be prettier options.

However most extra-dimensional space bursts when poked. So I can't just buy one of those bags...

The efficient quiver seemed perfect and rules-lawyering you could argue that yes a lance is like a spear or bow in that they're both two handed and there is no bigger category of weapons in pathfinder than two handed. Reach doesn't change it (as there's whips that have reach, too). Still the examples in the item's description were staff, bow, spear - not longspear. I wouldn't include a great-axe in same general shape in my own understanding. Lucerne hammer? hmpf...

So what I need is an item that allows me to place polarms there, even if they have reach. Don't care about great axes, though if it also works I wouldn't be opposed (maybe store some other stuff there...) - so what do you have for me?

Escape route feat won't work at the proposed level because as Lune points out the mount won't have high enough int to pick just anything that early.

A new thing I found is that riding dog isn't a normal campanion choice, though beastriders (cavlier archetype) do get it. -- They don't have an advancement posted anywhere though... - I think an "Advanced Riding Dog" template is about comparable to a wolf when it gets large and still weaker than a tiger or such, so not too op. Still quite a bit tougher than a "dog"... Who doesn't even get trip!

So I'll retrain Community Guardian probably, at which point the revelation will free up which I 'll use for the channel pool, so that won't be my feat. (Unless I change my mind and go warsighted after all)

Using flag bearer on a spear (banner of the ancient kings) is still far away, but maybe if I could use it on my lance (as long as I'm wielding only the buckler in the other it's hand is "free", so might work...

Mounted Combat feat would be redundant given the cavalier level... - with the Dragon Order I get Perception back as class skill (which I lose when retraining community guardian).

Combat Reflexes. As 5th will be boon campanion Bodyguard is still far away, unless I retrain the extra revelation feat from first level into bodyguard and wait with the extra revelation channel pool. Still it's HP/channel won't go up much, so now at low levels it's not just useful for recharging Lay on Hand, but actually as Channels, still meh.

Decision has to be made in the next 9 hours. If there's any last golden ideas please let me know.

here I was referred to asking that kind of question in a forum, so here I am.

How does anything gain the advanced template? (innate or acquired)

Are there ways for PCs to do it (for their mount or animal companion or bought animal) ?

Is it balanced for an animal that's just equipment (to avoid it dying so much)? - What price / cost for upgrade?

Would it be balanced to allow a Riding Dog Animal Companion (for example Beastrider archetype of Cavalier) to get the advanced template upon reaching level 7, becoming an Advanced Riding Dog? - Seems like it would be weaker than Big Cat and many other options, and comparable to a large Wolf (without being large though).

If not, would you allow it at a significant cost? If so what?

My GM and I just talked for a whole while trying to figure out how exactly Spirit of Community is even used... took a while.

When you use it out of combat it's easy, as all actions happen at the same time. Your move to activate, each decide whether they want a +1 or pass it on, then standard or fullround (relatively meaningless out of initiative, but not always) and then act with the bonus. So it can be activated and used to maximum efficiency within 6 seconds.

In combat, since handing off the bonus is a free action (not immediate), the activating user (or anyone else going shortly after him) can only get +5 bonus if it works all the way into the next round. Duration specifically says "for the next round", but English being our second language it was hard to understand whether that also allows you to use it in the frist round.

Eventually we decided yes, because everything else would be strange too (i.e. I activate community, but while you can hand that +1 bonus along, you can't actually use it yet... it's not really active, just... summoned... aehm)

So our understanding is it works like this:

Initiative: S=Shargok, N=Nigel (has this ability), L=Lembo, P=Peritte.

S does something. N activates this, and decides not to use the +1 bonus himself (yet). L has the "offer" of +2 from it, but decides not to use it. P is offered +3, but doesn't take it. Shargok now is the first to be able to take the +4, but if he doesn't take it others would be able to for the rest of the round (so that they too would have a chance to be the focus of the energy for maximal efficiency, as it would be out of combat).

Does anyone else see it differently?

Also you could house-rule it to be an immediate instead of free action (so that you get the same effect as outside of initiative, where it takes 6 seconds to activate and use, with everyone taking free actions at the same time) - but that would be a power increase over the ability as written.

Are we getting it right? How would you rule it to work?

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Here's the table Link

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Just went through it again. Intimidate to change their opinion of you also takes a minute... damn. So I went through all the skills and made a chart. Here's the results (since I don't know how to post charts here):

Always works for perception / appraise / Use Magic Device / All knowledges (not when using library) / acrobatics/climb/fly/ride/swim / stealth / slight of hand.

Mostly works for bluff (simple lies, feinting, creating diversion to hide) / Escape artist (except manacles/rope) / Disable Device (Open (any) Locks, disable simple other devices) / Handle Animal (Push and handle).

Also works on Diplomacy when making simple Requests / Intimidate when demoralizing opponents / Heal when used for First Aid or Treating Poison / Spellcraft when used to identify spells in Combat / Survival to find tracks and avoid getting lost.

Can work on Disguise, when used with Spell to speed it up / Perform when there's a bard with versitile performance / Profession for answering questions related to one's background.

So to sum it up: all the physicals work. UMD and Knowledge work, and the one's you'd expect (i.e. which normally take up to a full round to use). I was surprised by simple lies and simple requests being one round actions. So you could lie to get out of the hostile mode and then request to stop fighting so you can prove to them, that you're on their side.

I just came back to this thread (and saw your answer) to add Knowledge to the list... Awesome thing about is that I don't have to be the one with the knowledge. If each of us specializes on different knowledges with a +5 we can give one another we can cover a good range...

Our Halfling Rogue isn't too good at sniping yet (due to the incredible penalty to it) - but a +5 can seriously help there.

Acrobatic to balance or to do one crazy act, like get past 3 guys without taking AoO.

I considered sneaking, but that would eat a lot of uses, as it's mostly more than a 1 round effort. - Swim was a great idea!

Climb could be good, when you really need someone to get up some place.

Disguise, if only one of you has to be hidden. "These are not the droids you're looking for". :D

Would Diplomacy work? Probably no, cause 1 min action, right?

But intimidate would...

Paladin mount gets 6 int

I had heard of it before but first confused it with monstrous leadership or whatever that one is called, this here.

Monstrous Mount seems much more limited...

Example: I can get a griffon but it can't fly until I get another feat?

Compared to "If the magical beast's effective cohort level is lower than what is allowed by your effective druid level, the cohort gains class levels equal to the difference." - I love the idea of having class levels on my animal companion...

However the feats you suggest are much more clear. I don't quite understand how monstrous companion feat is supposed to work. Monstrous Mount on the other hand is simple... super limited choice, but clearly explained what you get.

I still don't really understand what kind of mount I even would want if I could take anything.

There's a dinosaur that I loved mechanically, but I dislike dinos a lot. They're not part of my image of medieval-fantasy genre, at least not anywhere but in reaaaaally remote regions maybe.

The dog is worse than the riding dog for some reason (maybe an advanced riding dog would work well as a basis for a good mount).

Crocodiles are funny and awesome, but I'm worried I might touch the ground or fall off when it does the deathroll...

Griffons are good, cause yay they fly, but we'll be indoors a lot. It's why I'm a small rider in the first place.

Small cats seems okay, but the immage is weird given my preference for heavy armor and a lot of gear. That moving at 500 ft speed is disturbing... also I can't go too far or I'll leave range for life links.

The beatle is cool... bad fly speed (which is funny), high ac... but humpf... I can't imagine how you'd sit on it... the entire back seems to be the wings... right?

I'd like a large wolf that's really not large but just rather big for medium size... :D

I can't actually retrain into Warsighted until Ora lvl 3, because it doesn't have the revelation class feature before then thus I couldn't have life link or other extra revelations without it.

So how about this: ora1, pal2, pal3, ora2, retrain (and only finish just before leveling up, so the free floating revelation isn't wasted for too long) and then ora3 replace community guardian with warsighted. At 5th level that gives me one extra feat compared to the builds posted earlier and one flexible feat. How valuable is a flexible feat to my build?

Improved combat maneuvers like disarm? Nope, those require Combat expertise. Various mounted directions? nope the chain splits early, then run parallel (i.e. separate)... if I did have loads of feats, I could go up to ride-by and up to bodyguard and use the flexible one to go spirited charge or in harms way as appropriate, and still have access to dodge or other random ones as needed. Given that I'm riding and won't have to use move actions to command my mount once it's a paladin mount, my move actions should be very available for switching things up. Hm... But I don't have spare feats like that. Maybe at higher level and even then adding the archetype would just cost relatively little (50 gp*char level).

If I take mounted combat at 3rd and ride-by from the one that frees up with untraining community guardian I can have spirited charge at 5th level. At that point I don't have vengance yet to smite all the time (which benefits a lot from the multiplier) - and I don't have anything to ensure the safety of my mount.

3rd - CR, Retrain ComG for Body guard, at 5th level do cavalier and boon companion so my mount won't die before I reach a high enough level to have a good one. At 7th if I want monstrous Leadership I can take it, since I qualify, or continue the mounted feat route to ride-by. At 8th I get an actual mount, stacks with cavalier so not strictly necessary to retrain instantly as it only costs 70 gp*cha level to retrain one level of a class later. Still I could retrain at 7th level if I want to save the cash.

Say efficient quiver, does it cover my polearm needs? Can I fit my bow, lucerne hammer and lance in there? should be able to, right?

Yes, I'm definitely streched between too many concepts. Healbot. Melee. Mounted. Support. hehe...

Combat Patrol needs mobility which I don't have the space in feats for. Bodyguard alone is already a 'maybe I can fit it'. - But it's a nice idea. In 6E I'd totally use it :) --- Also Benevolent armor is a must if I do get the Bodyguard feat... I love that it's just a flat +2k gp price, rather than a +1 or such.

EDIT: Just got the HeroLabs results... renewing radiance overrides the other one somehow. So terrible. So Community Guardian is out! - however it lets me take both (by paying for it with a feat) - and because I've used community guardian before I'll have to pay for retraining. Still it's not that much... - is it just 200 gp and 5 days, because one feature (i.e. different revelation) or is it twice that because class skills are altered as well?

More news: Psychic Searcher seems to be getting Cha to inspiration? (according to pfsrd in an unfamiliar just replace without citing source kinda way, so who knows if that's for real).

Warsighted is compatible with Psychic Searcher and solves my lack of feat delemma to a degree. Take flagbearer for a minute, switch up to precise shot as move action when you suddenly need your bow. Guess since you don't have the flag bearer feat you're not affecting your allys anymore so you can safely drop it on the ground, pull out your bow and fire? Would be a lot more fun with more feats to get the foundation of various chains though :D Still costs a feet though. What do you think is 1 feat worth having 5 minutes (not needing to be consecutive) of a flexible feat? Would be retraining this worth it?

Also the GM is using Hero Labs which for some reason didn't trigger as Psychic Searcher and Community Guardian were used at the same time, despite both being supposed to replace the 3rd level revelation. I explained to him that it is wrong, this clearly is incompatible as we had talked about when he first allowed it, but we'll see how it plays out and he might just let me take what ever happens at that level in Herolabs.

Still just untraining Community guardian is a flat +2 to feats. That's Bodyguard chain right there. Or up to Ride-by Attack. Hm...

Options! Grrr....

Damn, I spontaneously cast "wall of text" as a multi-day action again, didn't I?

I'm still thinking about this stuff... The masterwork tools are circumstance bonus, not competence - so it stacks. +5 is like bardic competence at 15th level! And inspire courage doesn't compete with it. Seems like a rather good revelation. - Also can be used on stealth (maybe if our rogue is sniping) without being so weird as a song that goes "Snipe, snipe dear rogue, or we'll all be dead. Hide well in that bush there, and don't let anyone know... ups." :D

So I'm thinking I do like the revelation. I just hate the 3rd level one so, so much.


More thoughts on mounts: The Bodyguard archetype is awesome, as when it uses the feat with same name it increases my AC by 4 (though without CR only 1/round), as is alertness, but the sweetest part is only dying at -(Con+Level) rather than just -Con. Means he doesn't fall over (I can keep riding, and healing and what not, rather than spending move action to get back up from the ground) which is sweet. Giving up multiattack isn't, but hey there's a cost to everything. -- As mentined earlier Escape Route is sweet, is CR worth it?

Guess I still have more to figure out than I assumed when I first started the thread.

03 Pal 2 - Escape Route
04 Ora 2
05 Cav 1 - Boon companion (or maybe Sohei?! - nevermind it's 3/4 bab)
06 Pal 3
07 Pal 4&5 - Vengance, retrain Cav 1 to Pal 5 (or not?)
08 Pal 6
09 Ora 4 - Blocked feat
10 Pal 7
11 Pal 8 - Leadership (or flag or extra

I could take escape route as 3rd level feat, then oracle (2), then take cavalier level as 5th with the boon companion feat to get a solid mount with escape route. Followed by a level of paladin (3), then one of oracle (3, with the blocked feat) at seven (here missing out on getting leadership asap, but the more I looked at it the less I understood how it's supposed to work). Next level gets Vengance, and we retrain cavalier for paladin to get mount. To explain the change in character maybe give the mount a heavier armor than it had before and assume that's why you can't use the mounted combat feat anymore and why suddenly ride check penalties from your armor apply to ride checks. The animal is less responsive through the gear? Next level can be Oracle...

Gha - I can't decide. Feat starvation... Are there magic items that can replace any of the feets I need?

The fluff of the feat mentions withdrawal, but I guess so does Expeditious Retreat, which is obviously just as nice for charging right at someone as it is for running away...

Reason for the necro is because I wanted to be sure... Shining knight 11 grants something like this (making you and your mount immune to AoOs from movement for a single charge action) - this does it at the cost of one feat each for all joined movement?

Yep, that's the flag I meant, which is why I mentioned taking a level of bard, since the inspire courage gets increased by the flag.

Another thing just came up: Cavaliers don't get ACP for ride checks. Emissinary (archetype) get mounted combat bonus feat. Sadly I don't see much else benefiting from high charisma (it used to be Cha to hit on challenge, would have been useful for non-evil enemies). Still, if I took a level in Cavalier and boon companion I'd have a serious mount 3 levels early, with free light armor prficiency - I guess the price for this would be too high, as it costs me for the effectiveness of LoH and Smite and delays vengance...

The reason community guardian was kind of cool was for things like disarming traps. With one rank I can attempt to aid another (for +4) and then with the spirit's help that's another +4. For being a knowledge monster I just have to focus a bit and have the others give up the bonus and boom there's +4 to my knowledge roll... - If the rogue is in a tight spot, boom +4 to his acrobatics check. I hadn't thought about it, but I guess once the mount has 6 int it'll all be +5 since he's then a full ally. This is totally worth a feat. It means I can contribute +9 to someone's check as long as I can beat AC10 for aid another, and as long as the check doesn't take more than a round. And using Fate's Favored and Adaptive Luck I can get lucky when I just barely fail to aid...

Wow, just realized the +5 is competence bonus and thus won't stack with masterwork tools (which the rogue would have), making even this awesome one less good. Also coolest uses (alchemy, etc.) wouldn't work due to the duration limitation....

Another thing: Sohei gets Spirited Charge without pre-req? See here. Two levels in that get full attack as long as the movement wasn't to large. This lacks ride by, which is too bad, but still charging right at something (that's not more than one movement speed away), hitting it hard once and then with itteratives... It's something. Probably would want a bigger pet though, so it too can attack. Tigers are large and pounce, so that would straight up cause explosions... - Imagine that while smiting? -- Anyway, don't have itteratives yet, but spirited charge would be nice...

Is any of this worth multi-classing further or am I just getting distracted?

Edit: How about the Escape Route teamwork feat for the mount and me so neither threatens while we're moving?! That is incredible given my need for mobility to stay in range with effects...

If I have the animal run over people, do I still get to attack? Could this save me from taking ride-by attack?

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