here I was referred to asking that kind of question in a forum, so here I am.
How does anything gain the advanced template? (innate or acquired)
Are there ways for PCs to do it (for their mount or animal companion or bought animal) ?
Is it balanced for an animal that's just equipment (to avoid it dying so much)? - What price / cost for upgrade?
Would it be balanced to allow a Riding Dog Animal Companion (for example Beastrider archetype of Cavalier) to get the advanced template upon reaching level 7, becoming an Advanced Riding Dog? - Seems like it would be weaker than Big Cat and many other options, and comparable to a large Wolf (without being large though).
If not, would you allow it at a significant cost? If so what?
here I was referred to asking that kind of question in a forum, so here I am.
How does anything gain the advanced template? (innate or acquired)
The advanced template is applied by the GM to a monster's Bestiary stat block in order to quickly generate a more powerful version of that monster. Technically it is never applied to a monster, only to a stat block, though people will speak of them interchangeably.
Are there ways for PCs to do it (for their mount or animal companion or bought animal) ?
No. It exists purely on the level of GM-player interactions, not character interactions. The player could certainly ask the GM "hey, could I have an advanced turtle companion instead of a regular turtle," but then the player could equally well ask for a turtle with 1000 hp. In either case the GM really shouldn't give it to you, unless the campaign is quite overpowered in other ways too.
Is it balanced for an animal that's just equipment (to avoid it dying so much)? - What price / cost for upgrade?
Well, if you wanted a horse, a "heavy horse" is defined in the Bestiary as a regular horse with the advanced template. You should be able to find both light and heavy horses in the equipment lists. I don't think there are any other examples of this. Note that you cannot get a heavy horse as an animal companion, and if there was a standard "heavy riding dog" it would be the same way---you could buy it as equipment but not get it as an animal companion.
Would it be balanced to allow a Riding Dog Animal Companion (for example Beastrider archetype of Cavalier) to get the advanced template upon reaching level 7, becoming an Advanced Riding Dog? - Seems like it would be weaker than Big Cat and many other options, and comparable to a large Wolf (without being large though).
If not, would you allow it at a significant cost? If so what?
The advanced template is the equivalent of getting a belt of physical perfection +4 (64000 gp) and a headband of mental superiority +4 (64000 gp) and also an amulet of natural armor +2 (8000 gp), except that it doesn't take up slots, so you'd have to double all the prices for a grand total of 272,000 gp. Alternatively and within the rules, you could buy the actual items for a mere 136,000 gp and outfit the dog with them. (According to the Animal Archive companion quadrupeds do have belt, headband, and neck slots, so no problems there.)
EDIT: Oops, forgot that if a creature's Int is 2 or less the advanced template does not increase it. So assuming your riding dog is a normal animal (Int 2) you only need a headband of mental prowess +4 (Wis&Cha), not a whole headband of mental superiority. So reduce the totals to 224,000 for doing it slotlessly or 112,000 with actual items.
here I was referred to asking that kind of question in a forum, so here I am.
How does anything gain the advanced template? (innate or acquired)
The advanced template is applied by the GM to a monster's Bestiary stat block in order to quickly generate a more powerful version of that monster. Technically it is never applied to a monster, only to a stat block, though people will speak of them interchangeably.
Are there ways for PCs to do it (for their mount or animal companion or bought animal) ?No. It exists purely on the level of GM-player interactions, not character interactions. The player could certainly ask the GM "hey, could I have an advanced turtle companion instead of a regular turtle," but then the player could equally well ask for a turtle with 1000 hp. In either case the GM really shouldn't give it to you, unless the campaign is quite overpowered in other ways too.
Thanks for pointing out that it's applied to the stat block, not the creature, that's interesting. - I get that it's a hyperbolie but +1000 hp? A turtle gets high AC, so an extra +2 would matter, I guess, but I have the feeling you resent me for even asking the question. It seems like it would be appropriate when the campaign is overpowered or the characters underpowered or a mix thereof. Our party of four level 2s at the time was up against a CR 4 because we went where our characters would have gone, rather than grind random places before going where we expected the source of the plot-thingy to be. Now we're level 3 but we continue to face strange odds, held together by a battle oracle and unchained rogue doing good damage and my oradin keeping them alive as good as possible. He's lame though as such having the mount killed would really suck, so given that many of the things we face could one shot his purchased riding dog, I'm looking at how to make it work/survive.
Is it balanced for an animal that's just equipment (to avoid it dying so much)? - What price / cost for upgrade?Well, if you wanted a horse, a "heavy horse" is defined in the Bestiary as a regular horse with the advanced template. You should be able to find both light and heavy horses in the equipment lists. I don't think there are any other examples of this. Note that you cannot get a heavy horse as an animal companion, and if there was a standard "heavy riding dog" it would be the same way---you could buy it as equipment but not get it as an animal companion.
And at what price would you place that hypothetical heavy riding dog?
Would it be balanced to allow a Riding Dog Animal Companion (for example Beastrider archetype of Cavalier) to get the advanced template upon reaching level 7, becoming an Advanced Riding Dog? - Seems like it would be weaker than Big Cat and many other options, and comparable to a large Wolf (without being large though).If not, would you allow it at a significant cost? If so what?The advanced template is the equivalent of getting a belt of physical perfection +4 (64000 gp) and a headband of mental superiority +4 (64000 gp) and also an amulet of natural armor +2 (8000 gp), except that it doesn't take up slots, so you'd have to double all the prices for a grand total of 272,000 gp. Alternatively and within the rules, you could buy the actual items for a mere 136,000 gp and outfit the dog with them. (According to the Animal Archive companion quadrupeds do have belt, headband, and neck slots, so no problems there.)
EDIT: Oops, forgot that if a creature's Int is 2 or less the advanced template does not increase it. So assuming your riding dog is a normal animal (Int 2) you only need a headband of mental prowess +4 (Wis&Cha), not a whole headband of mental superiority. So reduce the totals to 224,000 for doing it slotlessly or 112,000 with actual items.
This covers the balance of the increases in a general but not a specific sense. Obviously advancing a Common Cat (which like a Riding Dog isn't a typical animal companion) the consequences would different from increasing a Tiger. -- What I'm asking is, is the advanced riding dog unbalanced compared to the wolf with the 7th level upgrade.
Wolf Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor (-1 size bonus, +1 dex); Attack bite (1d8 plus trip); Ability Scores Str 21, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
Advanced Riding Dog Size medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +3 natural armor (+4 dex); Attack bite (1d6 plus trip); Ability Scores Str 19, Dex 19, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 10; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
Riding dog
Pro: Smaller, Better perception check, much cuter (Cha 10), much better AC.
Con: Slower, slightly weaker.
Conclusion: yes, it's more powerful.
How about Big cat?
Big Cat Size Large; Speed 40 ft.; AC +3 natural armor (-1 size, +2 dex); Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6); Ability Scores Str 21, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6); Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
Riding dog
Pro: Smaller, Better perception check (very slightly), a bit better AC.
Neutral: same charisma
Con: Slower, slightly weaker, incomparably weaker attacks/special attacks.
Conclusion: I'd say the Big Cat is significantly more powerful. And that's just the normal Big Cat. High level druids can get a dire big cat if I remember correctly.
As for the cost, what if I took leadership? Isn't there a version to gain cohort that advances as companion? Or straight up leadership for an advanced riding dog with levels?
Thanks for pointing out that it's applied to the stat block, not the creature, that's interesting. - I get that it's a hyperbolie but +1000 hp? A turtle gets high AC, so an extra +2 would matter, I guess, but I have the feeling you resent me for even asking the question.here I was referred to asking that kind of question in a forum, so here I am.
How does anything gain the advanced template? (innate or acquired)
The advanced template is applied by the GM to a monster's Bestiary stat block in order to quickly generate a more powerful version of that monster. Technically it is never applied to a monster, only to a stat block, though people will speak of them interchangeably.
Are there ways for PCs to do it (for their mount or animal companion or bought animal) ?No. It exists purely on the level of GM-player interactions, not character interactions. The player could certainly ask the GM "hey, could I have an advanced turtle companion instead of a regular turtle," but then the player could equally well ask for a turtle with 1000 hp. In either case the GM really shouldn't give it to you, unless the campaign is quite overpowered in other ways too.
I pulled both the 1000 and the choice of turtle out of my butt thin air. Any apparent resentment is purely an illusion due to poor writing on my part, for which you have my apologies.
It seems like it would be appropriate when the campaign is overpowered or the characters underpowered or a mix thereof. Our party of four level 2s at the time was up against a CR 4 because we went where our characters would have gone, rather than grind random places before going where we expected the source of the plot-thingy to be. Now we're level 3 but we continue to face strange odds, held together by a battle oracle and unchained rogue doing good damage and my oradin keeping them alive as good as possible. He's lame though as such having the mount killed would really suck, so given that many of the things we face could one shot his purchased riding dog, I'm looking at how to make it work/survive.
OK, I think I understand your situation now. And you expect the odds to continue through at least 7th level?
Well, if you wanted a horse, a "heavy horse" is defined in the Bestiary as a regular horse with the advanced template. You should be able to find both light and heavy horses in the equipment lists. I don't think there are any other examples of this. Note that you cannot get a heavy horse as an animal companion, and if there was a standard "heavy riding dog" it would be the same way---you could buy it as equipment but not get it as an animal companion.And at what price would you place that hypothetical heavy riding dog?
I would say that the price ratio of heavy to light should be the same for a riding dog as for a combat-trained horse (since all riding dogs are combat-trained), so:
(300 for trained heavy horse / 110 for trained light horse) * (150 for 'light' riding dog) = 409 for heavy riding dog.I suggest asking your GM whether you can spend extra time shopping, or extra gold, or extra care inspecting the dogs (represented by a successful Handle Animal check), to get one with more hp than the average for its HD. Also, consider keeping your current 'light' dog as backup when you get a heavy one. Having spare mounts rarely hurts.
This covers the balance of the increases in a general but not a specific sense. Obviously advancing a Common Cat (which like a Riding Dog isn't a typical animal companion) the consequences would different from increasing a Tiger. -- What I'm asking is, is the advanced riding dog unbalanced compared to the wolf with the 7th level upgrade. [...] Conclusion: I'd say the Big Cat is significantly more powerful. And that's just the normal Big Cat. High level druids can get a dire big cat if I remember correctly.
The Big Cat is hands-down the most battle-effective animal companion, but you have a point. I would say you may get a more positive response from your GM if you trim down the benefits of the advanced template; does your companion really need the boosts to Wis and Cha? Remember that the template is just a convenient 'summary' way of pumping things up, you're not bound to it.
As for the cost, what if I took leadership? Isn't there a version to gain cohort that advances as companion? Or straight up leadership for an advanced riding dog with levels?
I'm 99% sure there is no way to have something that is both cohort and animal companion. You can have a monster cohort that functions as a mount, though. (The later Bestiaries have addenda to the list there.) I would look at the Hound Archon, which can become any canine from Small to Large though its base form is humanoid. The downside is that its effective cohort level is 7, which means you'll need to wait til level 8 to get one (after which it will start getting class levels). If you want to pump up a riding dog instead of taking something more monstrous, you should find a way to boost its Int to human levels, as cohorts are supposed to be reasonably sentient. Saying that some druid cast awaken on it is easiest. If the GM let you purchase a heavy riding dog, they might make you find a druid to awaken it and role-play convincing it to stay with you as a cohort. The GM will have to determine its effective cohort level by looking at the Bestiaries' lists of monster cohorts. It's probably relatively low since it has no magic powers, so it could gain some class levels either immediately or very quickly, to catch up to where it ought to be, and then proceed normally.
So one more aspect then: innate or acquired? The reason I'm semi-set on riding dog is because the current Riding Dog has found his fans in the group... - If he does actually die I'll be more free to consider other options, still I have yet to find any medium sized ones that are very appealing. The dog I imagine very muscular etc. The small cat with a heavy armor wearing halfling on top running 500 ft in 6 seconds... distrubs my mental imagery.
We just had another game today, and we moshed an Attic Whisperer before all 4 players had their turn... but that involved a crit on my part, a max damage roll on the Battle Oracle's Great Axe and a severe sneak attack from our unchained rogue, so we were just quite lucky to have lined it all up so nicely. So I'm not sure about the balance, whether it'll be all that bad. I am concerned about the dog geting not just KOed but actually killed in a single attack. I'll be using shield other on him at some point, but currently the sorceress keeps wanting to be in the front line, and my oradin has some need to protect her, so it's taking priority over protecting the mount.
Currently Oracle 1 / Paladin 2, soon a level of oracle, then one level of Cavalier (with Boon Companion = 5th level companion - devine intervention?), then three more paladin (which at first don't advance the mount!) before it grants mount and the paladin levels stack again with the companion (so 8th level companion - suddenly with 6 int! devinely inspired... :D ), two more oracle levels at some point, rest paladin. Total has 4 oracle (thus Boon Companion worth it), might retrain cavalier to paladin later, but wanted early access to advancement and mounted combat feat (and animal gets light armor proficiency) and no Armor check penalty to ride anymore (making mounted combat worth it in the first place, besides for getting ride-by attack).
So Rags progression would be rather awkward: normal dog for levels 1-4, then suddenly he improves a lot, then stays the same for a couple levels, then jumps 3 levels again! - Might be worth it to accept that Rags is just a Dog and have him wait at the caravan, when things get too Dangerous and start riding something more sturdy...
Any advice? I really don't want to be caught with a dead mount...
So one more aspect then: innate or acquired? The reason I'm semi-set on riding dog is because the current Riding Dog has found his fans in the group... - If he does actually die I'll be more free to consider other options, still I have yet to find any medium sized ones that are very appealing. The dog I imagine very muscular etc. The small cat with a heavy armor wearing halfling on top running 500 ft in 6 seconds... distrubs my mental imagery.
In-game innate is far easier than acquired. I don't know of any way short of a high-level polymorph to turn a light horse into a heavy horse. However, if the GM decides that it's reasonable to buy a heavy riding dog, and you spend the money to do so, I see no reason for the GM not to declare that your existing dog has "actually" been a heavy one all along. That is, in-game it's innate, out of game it's acquired. It's not like that's going to retroactively impact anything else.
We just had another game today, and we moshed an Attic Whisperer before all 4 players had their turn... but that involved a crit on my part, a max damage roll on the Battle Oracle's Great Axe and a severe sneak attack from our unchained rogue, so we were just quite lucky to have lined it all up so nicely. So I'm not sure about the balance, whether it'll be all that bad. I am concerned about the dog geting not just KOed but actually killed in a single attack. I'll be using shield other on him at some point, but currently the sorceress keeps wanting to be in the front line, and my oradin has some need to protect her, so it's taking priority over protecting the mount.
Is the dog actually fighting? If it is, can you spare its attacks? Most opponents don't bother going after mounts that don't participate.
Oh, and if it isn't fitted out with barding yet, get some! It doesn't need armor proficiency to wear armor, the only non-proficiency penalty is that the ACP applies to its attack rolls... which is moot if the ACP happens to be zero. Say, mwk studded leather or mithral kikko. (If you give it the charger archetype when you make it a companion then it'll reduce the ACP of any armor it's wearing (and raise the max dex) so you can even get mithral breastplate or better.)
Currently Oracle 1 / Paladin 2, soon a level of oracle, then one level of Cavalier (with Boon Companion = 5th level companion - devine intervention?), then three more paladin (which at first don't advance the mount!) before it grants mount and the paladin levels stack again with the companion (so 8th level companion - suddenly with 6 int! devinely inspired... :D ), two more oracle levels at some point, rest paladin. Total has 4 oracle (thus Boon Companion worth it), retrain cavalier to paladin later, but wanted early access to advancement and mounted combat feat (and animal gets light armor proficiency) and no Armor check penalty to ride anymore (making mounted combat worth it in the first place, besides for getting ride-by attack).
Ok, with that plan you'll want to forget what I said about awakening it and making it a cohort---awakened animals can't be class-special mounts/companions/familiars. Though I suppose once you retrain cavalier into paladin you could retrain your divine bond: mount feature into divine bond: weapon, ride the awakened now-cohort dog, and have a spirit-enhanced sword. Downside is you can't summon it to you and it doesn't gain the celestial template later. Not sure what would happen to all the features it got from being a companion (and maybe having the charger archetype).
Any advice? I really don't want to be caught with a dead mount...
This will be more useful at higher levels, but remember that raise dead works on animals too. And there's raise animal companion at one level lower once it attains that status. To avoid the need, barding barding barding. Enchanted barding if you can afford to take the resources away from your own equipment.
Okay, so currently the riding dog is still contributing a lot and meaningfully in combat (trip is awesome and it still happens often enough. I considered "aiding another" to get his trip to work, it's often better than my main attack (since I have 13 str, and no lance yet, just a lucerne hammer). 0 ACP barding is a great idea...
He's close to medium encumbrance though, so if that'll tip him over, if I can afford to loose the attacks I might just as well give him armor with ACP, right? Although I do like his current jumping abilities... I was thinking Guard archetype, for shared alerntess feat, more resillience to death (i.e. -constitution + level) and bodyguard feat for increasing rider's AC. I wanted the rider to take Bodyguard as well, so both would be giving +4 AC to one another... at first I considered Escape Routes instead, for movement free of AoO's, but I figured Bodyguard applies more often (including during AoO's), as long as he can beat AC10, which he should...
However, since the next free feat is still far away (and I haven't had too many AoO opportunities sofar, so I didn't like having CR for a long time before using it), I went with flagbearer see here, as it supports the whole party's damage output, which reduces their chance to harm us by being dead. :D
I had considered the Charger Archetype, but rejected it because the bonus feats didn't seem relevant (silly me, a paladin's 6 int mount can take any feats anyways) and I can heal fatigue with a lay on hand. - Running faster in heavier armor with more dex bonus sounds pretty damn good actually. I'll think about it.
Mounted Combat from Cavalier will help a little (also not having ACP to ride), so one good attack avoidance / round. And it grants him light armor proficiency...
So conclusion to protecting my mount: You said to make it appear less threatening, cover it in armor (and magic obviously, once I have money, for amulet of natural armor and what not).
Mithral kikko is expensive, but masterwork studded leather isn't, so good tip there :)
Edit: any medium sized mounts that are better than riding dog?
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He's close to medium encumbrance though, so if that'll tip him over, if I can afford to loose the attacks I might just as well give him armor with ACP, right?
Yes, for ACP values up to the -3 that medium encumbrance inflicts. BTW, did you multiply his carrying capacity by 1.5 for being a quadruped?
I'm quite fond of the rider-and-mount-Escape-Route trick, as long as the GM agrees that it works of course.
Edit: any medium sized mounts that are better than riding dog?
Not that come to mind or in a brief scan of Ultimate Equipment's mounts list, no.
Well riding dog doesn't cut it - other things cut riding dog...
The Riding dog had been outdamaging my character at earlier levels, but lately (the last few battles) it didn't even have to do anything to provoke the enemy's attention. It would just get attacked a lot, and most recently got shredded to bits. - Each time before it was even our turn.
An undead dude stood in a hallway, his prey ran past the armored little man on a dog, who says "you shall not pass" - so it attacks the dog?!
A beast holds its breath in the water and waits and waits until it sees a light to one side of the pond. It jumps out (gets a suprise round although everyone's staring at the water while we're trying to carefully walk around it) and attacks not the guy that holds the lucerne hammer with a light spell on it, but his dog... claw. Our half-orc battle oracle runs to his back and attacks but doesn't get flank bonus, as it wasn't my turn yet. As the monster's initiative was higher it gets to go again before the rider or mount can react, claw claw (well into the minus hp at this point) and follows up with a bite (despite having 3 other targets in reach, one of whom just threw a stone that caused 14 damage, one barely missed with a big axe, but it just keeps going at the dog, knocking it to -17 hp (2 past his constitution) - It has a bar where intelligence ability should be (i.e. insects have only instincts), so I guess tactics (i.e. attack things that are attacking you, rather than things that are already dying) isn't necessarily to be expected.
Mechanically it was fair, rationally it was plausible, but story wise Rags the riding dog had personality and bonds with the cast, so to have him die to some large pond insect is unsatisfying, yet it happened.
So the question is more so than before what mount do I get now, how do I make it actually survive? My speed without mount is 10 ft/round, and the skills are also invested in mount handling.
The GM also switched up the rules for which sources are available, so I have to change a few things in the build which includes changing my 1st and 3rd level feats.
Mounted-combat + ride-by with the hopes of being able to move such that I don't have to stand right in front of someone to take their full attack, and if that happens at least I can try to negate one of the attacks
Or
Combat Reflexes + Bodyguard to give +4 AC?
EDIT: Oh wait, Helpful halfling isn't from an allowed source, so hat makes Bodyguard much less useful, so I guess mounted combat route, though that makes my ACP matter for avoiding hits, which sucks, given my preference for this character to be in heavy armor...
Animal companion doesn't become an option for a bunch of levels... and boon companion isn't an allowed feat anymore either, since he doesn't own the book it's from.
Flag bearer is out, too -- more importantly Fey Foundling is out (the reason I have 2 feats to spend now), and that one was essential to my build.