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Organized Play Member. 69 posts (99 including aliases). 6 reviews. 1 list. 1 wishlist. 5 Organized Play characters. 1 alias.


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Liberty's Edge

Where is the faction mission information for this scenario?

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Zhangar wrote:
Anything from Tome of Horrors should be reprinted in the module. Bestiary 2 and Bestiary 3 critters are available on Paizo's website - check out the PRD.

Awesome, thanks! That gives a lot more space in the mod for more rooms and descriptions.

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I'm enjoying this mod quite a bit as I read through it, its definitely got plenty of potential for both action and roleplaying. One thing I find very disappointing though, it requires Bestiary 2, Bestiary 3 and Tome of HOrrors. Please put at least basic stat blocks for all monsters in the mod!

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IejirIsk wrote:

alchy dont 'cast' so cantrips doesnt make sense themtaically. mechanically no idear.

as far as 'worst potion makers' only one other class gets access to potion making at 1st level.

iirc most of their extracts they can make as a potion, for others to use, and so become potentially one of the best buffers out there.

True, if that's all you want to do, my original point was that they have a very limited formula list, which severely limits their versatility as potion makers. Its also easier to use the infusion discovery and just hand others your extracts, though the # per day is very limited.

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Yes, there is a lot more, but it seems a serious weakness for the alchemist class to be the worst potion makers, especially as that could be a significant personal benefit.

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I saw in one of Mary's previous posts that she estimated the number of Rune Giants at 34, based on the number of stasis chambers in the upper city. Has everyone been using that number? It seems reasonable, though a bit on the high side. There's 500 giants in the encampment, along with some unspecified numbers of other giants in Jotunberg and the Shalaria - but what are they all doing?

I'm trying to make the city feel both epic and deserted, and haven't quite hit on the right combination yet. I can't decide if it is more like 'Escape from New York' or 'I Am Legend' - or something I haven't hit on yet.

A couple things I've decided is that there must be some kind of market. Even if all that's being traded there is the contents of whatever some giants had in their bags, plus possibly things brought by the denizens of Leng, there should be some bartering and trading going on. There should also be a commissary somewhere, but I haven't figured out yet where the food is coming from.... feeding 500 or 600 giants is no easy task, so someone is producing a LOT of food, somehow. The remoteness of Xin-Shalast really works against it in terms of trade, which makes you wonder how it ever functioned as a city.

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The big encounters at the beginning of Sins of the Saviors are a blast, even for the DM. I liked Fortress for the old school feel, and Sins is definitely a good challenge for a DM. Keep going! My group finally got to Spires and I'm excited to see them begin it. They may not be so excited about being stomped. :)

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Sean Mahoney wrote:

Has anyone already completed a timeline of all the events (background stuff mostly) that take place in this AP? I am sure something like that is out there but am unable to find it.

Sean Mahoney

I don't think there is one, really. Its clear from the module introductions and some comments here that a variable amount of time can pass inbetween mods, and even between some events in the mods. The most closely tied together are the first two, because of the one NPC that appears in both. That one, it actually requires you to separate the two out in time, so certain events can happen if your party does not take long enough finishing off the goblins. Other than that, considering there are several very long overland treks, and the possibility of post-mod work, the events are all variable and may be quite far apart. Hook Mountain Massacre and The Fortress of the Stone Giants, in particular, can be quite far apart in time, if you like, or not.

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I'd really like to run this adventure with as much risk for the PC's as I think it was intended. So far, while they've had to work hard to kill Mokmurian and Kazaven, my players have not been as challenged as they should be. Any recommendations on how to make this adventure as challenging as it should be? I'm not saying it isn't challenging, mostly I'm looking for DM advice on how to fully take advantage of what's in the adventure. Maybe I'm being too easy on them or my tactics suck!

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Joey Virtue wrote:

Well I have started a Story hour for this game

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/campaignJournals/virt uesRISEOFTHERUNELORDSCampaignJournal.

Joey, that link did not work for me, just took me to the paizo.com page.

I just finished running Sins of the Saviors, and I used a lot of your suggestions. I also put 2 T. Mummies and 2 Dread Wraiths into the final encounter with Kazaven. That battle went really long, though it wasn't quite as deadly as I would have hoped.

In retrospect, all of the wizards in Runeforge need more wands and scrolls of damage spells, including Fireball and Lightning Bolt. Each one typically has 2 or 3 good damage spells, then 2 or 3 more minor damage spells, and that's not enough. They also don't have enough area of effect spells (even with your changes). I'm going to look at your suggestions and really work over Khalib before they run into him and see if it helps.

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Joey Virtue wrote:
I made the level tougher by adding Coin Golems from one of the Goodman game suplements makes the over all level much more difficult I covered it in my changes to 6 players thread

Thanks, I missed the coin golems part. I fully plan on using your Kazaven enhancements for 6 players, but I'm thinking I have to change his spells a bit too. Some area of affect stuff maybe.

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Any hints for making Kazaven a tougher opponent? I wanted to make him one of the toughest encounters in the Runeforge, and looking over his spell list, I'm not sure he'll dish out enough damage.

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James Jacobs wrote:
James Laubacker wrote:
tdewitt274 wrote:

"In the next week or so, we're expecting to ship the next volume of your subscription."

You know the drill!

I know you Paizo folks are aware of your literary history, that makes me wonder if you chose the name of this mod on purpose?
All names are chosen on purpose! :)

Of course! Just testing. :)

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tdewitt274 wrote:

"In the next week or so, we're expecting to ship the next volume of your subscription."

You know the drill!

I know you Paizo folks are aware of your literary history, that makes me wonder if you chose the name of this mod on purpose?

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Set wrote:

The best thing about LE from an adventure/module standpoint is that in the majority of adventures, the LE character doesn't require any special motivation that the LG one wouldn't also use. LE doesn't equal 'friends with all other evil,' after all, and the Asmodeus worshipper is going to be every bit as motivated as a Paladin of Iomedae to smack down the forces of any evil that *isn't* Asmodeus (or even, in the case of Chelaxian internal intrigue, in the best interests of his or her own house and family!).

Running games for CE or NE characters, who might actively embrace all sorts of extra-curricular naughtiness and be all-too-willing to screw over their allies to accomplish goals, can be more problematic.

LE, less 'disruptive psycho-killer nutjob' and more Dr. Doom, perfectly willing to ally with the Fantastic Four, if it means saving the planet from Galactus.

Just swap out 'Fantastic Four' with 'Andoran freedom fighters' and 'Galactus' with 'apocalyptic Rovagug cults.'

If you are trying to say that its ok to adventure with LE characters because they won't act evil part of the time.... I can't see how that works. What would your LE character do in a mod where he or she doesn't gain anything, and other evil factions don't lose? In other words, if the LE character stands to gain nothing, and all that's done is benefit the greater good by helping others, I think he's going to have a bit of a problem - especially if those who benefit are the GOOD opponents of his deity.

You're talking about a very limited, one time situation where evil allies with good because they don't feel like getting crushed, that's different. I just can't see that as justification for including evil characters in an organized play situation on a regular basis.
I'd like to see the idea of including Cheliax as a faction reconsidered, or making the Cheliax faction good rebels against the leadership of the country.

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DarkWhite wrote:
I'd be willing to wait until Season 1 and the release of the Pathfinder RPG before making a call on this one. One of the goals of Pathfinder Beta was to make 1st level play less vulnerable. If the Pathfinder RPG retains one of the bonus hit points options from the Beta, +2 +2 -2 stat modifiers, Sorcerous Bloodlines and other enhancements, you might find that 1st level play is more enjoyable, and not want to skip past it in the space of one "intro mod".

I'm not worried about less vulnerable - I just don't find 1st level very interesting any more, haven't for years. Those things won't make it more interesting. Note that I wasn't suggesting skipping past it in one mod - it would still take TWO mods to complete first level. Two seems to be plenty for me.

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Joshua J. Frost wrote:

... The 1.2 and 2.0 rules sets for PFS will reflect these conversations. So please don't take my assertion that I'm not trying to rebuild LG to reflect a personal ignorance of past lessons--it simple isn't the case.

Going back to a previous post:

Joshua J. Frost wrote:


For those of you who hit the cap, starting a second character is the best solution. This does two things: keeps enough characters in the low levels so that Pathfinder Society is open to all who want to play (another goal of the system) and allows you to play all scenarios that are released.

I'd modify this to say: start a second character when you hit 4th level. I'd like to see this in the future PFS rules as a recommendation for players. A person with only a 1st or 2nd level character has no choice, they can't play anything else, but once you hit 4th, making a 1st level character lets you help others get into the game. Also makes life easier for the marshal and DM. It also resolves the concern about advancing too fast - you won't if you spread the scenarios out a bit.

However, I agree with some of the others that leveling from 1st to 2nd is too slow - I'd really like to see the equivalent of 'Intro mods' that are worth 2 XP. I've done first level before, lots of times, I'd like to be done with it as soon as possible. After that, advancement is fine, maybe a bit too fast after 4th.

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Draco Bahamut wrote:
James Laubacker wrote:


The same is true for Golarion - a bit more information here on the site, somewhere it can be found, would be a good way to introduce players to your products. A lot of GM's have very nice game world sites, maybe something similiar? Maps that included links to products would be really cool.

Well, the rise of the runelords player guide is free and can be a small preview for the gameworld.

I know, though it is specific to a small part of the world, and that can be confusing, or not helpful for Pathfinder Society players, where the scenarios for the most part are set elsewhere. It also isn't helping infrequent or first time visitors to the Society part of the website.

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Erik,
I think there needs to be a little more content available on this website for the Society. I've been trying to get folks interested, but their first reaction is that this website is difficult to use, and has no information available.
The same is true for Golarion - a bit more information here on the site, somewhere it can be found, would be a good way to introduce players to your products. A lot of GM's have very nice game world sites, maybe something similiar? Maps that included links to products would be really cool.

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We had a good time with the scenario. I was DM'ing for a couple guys that looooove talking - so of course they had to go talk to the actors before attending the show. Lots of adlibbing about who was out sick and who was filling in for whom. Good stuff! I like the comment about more zombies, I threw in a few random ones just to keep things moving, so to speak.

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Right, quickened spells were swift, they allowed only the casting of an additional spell on your turn only. I'd rather not see any immediate actions in PF, I never though it worked very well as an 'add on' to 3.5. No instants either!

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Plissken wrote:
Well, that's all the questions I had. Thank you everyone for your help. I look forward to starting some games. I already purchased Silent Tide.

A couple of really basic questions on character creation.

If you create a character today, it's based entirely on the d20 SRD and the Pathfinder Society guide, correct? The beta Pathfinder rules are not allowed yet.

There will be a conversion to the Pathfinder rules in August 2009.

Looking forward to playing my first pathfinder scenario at ConnCon!

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Cpt_kirstov wrote:
veector wrote:

It's certainly making me get creative. For Black Magga (#3) I'm planning on getting a plastic octopus and the gluing a snake head on top of it.

I had planned on using the mcfarlane hydra, and taking off the wings for this

Other than the action figures, what have people used for the Storm Giants, Cloud Giants and Rune Giants in PF 6? Has anyone come up with suggestions for the harridans and other lamia-kin yet?

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Gray wrote:
Stuff that makes sense. Thanks guys. For some reason, I had it in my head that I'm in for a TPK if they don't figure out the order ahead of time.

Not a TPK, but if they destroy a glyph that isn't the restoration glyph first, wait a day, then do another, they should have SOME way of finding out that the first glyph they destroyed is recreated. The doomsday score, however you present it, might not be enough of a clue. Maybe each time they see a glyph, give them a knowldege check, and seeing the glyph gives them some insight into the information they got from Thorn's End, which will eventually reveal the nature of each of the focus glyphs. I wouldn't let them be unlucky enough to randomly try the restoration glyph last and have to do the other 4 all over again - that would just be cruel. Unless of course they are really stupid or stubborn about it.

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James Jacobs wrote:
James Laubacker wrote:

My memory of mod 17 must be fuzzy, I don't remember it specifying that much detail on the working of the glyphs or the timeline, just some generic information about how Allevrah has the info, is now a drow, and she knows enough to invoke them.

I guess I was looking for something more along the lines of a roleplaying method, rather than giving them the Doomsday score. That seems too meta-gamish for me. I never would have thought of just openly sharing that, same goes for the similiar scoring methods in the earlier mods.

The discussion of these notes is primarily in Pathfinder 18. The author of 17 didn't leave us much room to talk about that part in #17, so we moved the discussion to #18, where it's actually more logical to talk about anyway, since the notes in question are referring to THAT adventure. They're mentioned VERY briefly in PF 17, though.

Although I'm of the opinion that being meta-gamey at times is GOOD (it IS a game, after all, and visual clues like a doomsday clock countdown are no more "distracting," I think, than the clock elements that appear in a show like "24"), if you disagree, the best way to show the PCs that time's running out is to let them study the earthfall glyphs as they come to them like one might study a Mayan calendar stone or Stonehenge or something. Give them some Knowledge checks (whichever checks you think would work best and which the PCs actually have access to) and tell the guy or gal who rolls the highest that things are progressing more swiftly or slowly or whatever.

But still... openly sharing something like a Doomsday clock (or victory points or whatever) is a great way to not only keep the players involved and excited, but it gives them a concrete mechanic that they can use to spur them on. It's no different, really, than letting the PCs track their own hit points or know what their skill bonuses are.

Thanks again, James. I have to admit, like I said, I wouldn't have thought about showing the score, but after you suggested it I started thinking of some sort of item or device that would do it, and your suggestion of using the glyphs themselves would work very well. I appreciate the time and and feedback!

Despite my questions, I'm really looking forward to running this AP, especially for the guy that wants to play a drow.

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Dance of Ruin wrote:

James:

While I agree with your observation with regards to information that is available to the characters, I think that the players might understand rather quickly what the AP is about - after all, you've got drow, you've got meteors, and the AP's title is a dead giveaway. Connecting the three on a meta-level is just a matter of time.

That being said: There isn't really anything that can be done to increase the 'timer' feeling of the first adventures, I think. After all, if you increase the scope of the adventure too fast (lots of meteors, everywhere!) the party will begin to wonder why the available high-level characters do nothing to stop the impending catastrophe. The speed at which SD is building seems right to me overall, but maybe something could be done about in-character knowledge by providing more opportunities for Knowledge checks.

That seems like an excellent idea. Maybe a series of medium to high (DC 25) knowledge arcana or religion checks will give them the feeling that the moment of no return is approaching fast. No specifics, just a sense that forces are moving quickly towards the end. It obviously been designed so that no warnings will come from gods or other forces.

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James Jacobs wrote:


Actually, the PCs should be able to recover some of Allevrah's notes at the end of the previous adventure, and that's where they should start to learn about the glyphs and how to deactivate them... getting those notes is actually kind of the whole point of the previous adventure. So the PCs SHOULD know about the glyphs, and they SHOULD be able to study them when they get to them and learn about how close things are, and should know that they're on a timer. And then, during the course of the last adventure, it'd be cool if every time the Doomsday score changes, for good or for ill, the GM should let the PCs know. Don't keep that number a secret. Since the players have no idea what the numbers mean, other than that it's some sort of countdown, it should spur them on quite well.

But yeah; the point of the previous adventure was to give them the heads-up on what's going on behind the scenes, and that they're on a timer.

My memory of mod 17 must be fuzzy, I don't remember it specifying that much detail on the working of the glyphs or the timeline, just some generic information about how Allevrah has the info, is now a drow, and she knows enough to invoke them.

I guess I was looking for something more along the lines of a roleplaying method, rather than giving them the Doomsday score. That seems too meta-gamish for me. I never would have thought of just openly sharing that, same goes for the similiar scoring methods in the earlier mods.

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James Jacobs wrote:
James Laubacker wrote:

Can anyone expand on what the timing is in this adventure? I realize that by using the 'Doomsday score', the idea is to make the scenario independent of a time frame, but I think that robs the scenario of its sense of urgency.

What got Allevrah to this point? Why hasn't she invoked the runes before now? What is she waiting for now? Is she waiting for some event, an appropriate celestial object to move into position, some other portent or sign from Abraxas, or what? I would think the group could use some sign that things are coming to a conclusion VERY SOON, and they need to act with a sense of urgency.

I've found that hard time limits on adventures almost always make for poorer adventures. Each GM needs to adapt the adventure to fit his players' style; if your players are the type to finish an entire adventure without resting once, a 3 day time limit is meaningless. And if your players are the ones who plan everything and are meticulous or just have the bad luck of the dice and are forced to take longer than normal, then a 3 day time limit is ridiculously short. Worse... for sake of story excitement, it's generally more exciting to have the PCs show up at the last minute and save the world just when things look the darkest; with a hard time limit, that becomes very difficult to pull off.

As for what Allevrah's up to; we deliberate left the mechanics of the ritual vague, but the basic idea is this:

In order to pull down an asteroid, you first need to to create the series of glyphs. This takes a long time, since the glyphs have to incorporate LOTS of arcane math and formulas. Once the glyphs are in place, you use the glyphs to send out your mind into the gulf to find the asteroid you want; the bigger the asteroid you want, the more complex the glyphs you need and the farther apart they have to be. Once you FIND the asteroid you want, you need to spend a set period of time each day in the central glyph, focusing your mind on it. The glyphs draw the asteroid...

AHH! <sound of players running screaming> You said the evil word 'math'! That will create the necessary sense of fear and terror!

I agree, a hard time line is very difficult to pull off, as it really puts the time line in the hands of the players, unless you've calculated it perfectly, or manipulate events shamelessly.

So, given what I remember of the path, the PC's do not know this much detail about the workings of the glyphs, so they don't know why it takes this long. Would it be reasonable to say that what they learned from the information at Thorn's End would include some hints that the moons need to be in just the right phases, and that such an event is coming soon? Other possibilities might include some prophet or seer giving them a warning in Kyonin, even if they were told previously there would be no warnings.

Liberty's Edge

One weak point I've found with this AP, and that's how the group gets a sense of impending doom, and how to work it into the adventure. How are they supposed to know, after Devil's Elbow, that the drow can pull of a world ending collision? If they can, why haven't they? I know this is difficult to do, but somehow the PC's need to experience that they are in a race against time - and they will die if they fail. That being said, they need some kind of sign or portent that they better move fast, and cooperate with the elves in finding out what they need to know.

Liberty's Edge

Can anyone expand on what the timing is in this adventure? I realize that by using the 'Doomsday score', the idea is to make the scenario independent of a time frame, but I think that robs the scenario of its sense of urgency.
What got Allevrah to this point? Why hasn't she invoked the runes before now? What is she waiting for now? Is she waiting for some event, an appropriate celestial object to move into position, some other portent or sign from Abraxas, or what? I would think the group could use some sign that things are coming to a conclusion VERY SOON, and they need to act with a sense of urgency.

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Anyone out there in Central/Southern New York or Central/Northern PA? I'm trying to get some interest going to run PF at Mepacon, in May. If you haven't been to Mepacon, its a great mid-sized con. If you have been, lets get PF going at Mepacon!

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I'm trying to get Mepacon, in May, to run Pathfinder scenarios. Anyone here associated with Mepacon or planning on attending?

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Joey Virtue wrote:
James Laubacker wrote:

One thing I think all the arcane casters suffer from is the limitation of SRD spells only. Particularly, the orb spells from Complete Arcane. If you use them in your campaign, consider swapping out a few magic missiles for the Lesser Orbs (or non-offensive spells) and the full power orbs at 4th level. Empowered lesser orbs are quite effective. The sonic orb is a good choice, as its hard to defend against. Improved Mage Armor is also good.

Also - particularly for Mokmurian, give him some sort of ally, whether summoned, or just a guardian in his quarters. The one on 6 battle is very one-sided.

Did you read what i have done with alot of the combats?

Yes, I did, thank you, and its been very helpful, unfortunately I found it after I ran Mokmurian. I figured some additional advice would be helpful, after someone asked for more ideas.

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Greg A. Vaughan wrote:


I don't remember what all magic items I sprinkled through the adventure to help with this, but I imagine some of them were changed or dropped through the editing process. You can always add a few suitable magic items to a treasure hoard here and there if needed.

The Altitude Affinity is more for the benefit of the monsters who live there than the PCs, though if one had a high-mountains miner background or something, they might take it.

I was thinking a typical party would have to rely more on magic than anything. Page 68 provides a number of examples that could work. I think there are a few elixirs of the peaks in the adventure and such. At 14th+ levels, it's not that difficult for PCs to travel back to Magnimar or Janderhoff and try to find some suitable magic to prepare for the challenges they see that they'll face. Part of the time, they may need to simply rely on their Fort saves and use rope tricks and magnificent mansions as hidey holes to recover. 14th-level PCs can do a lot of things...

Thank you Greg, glad to hear your thoughts on it. I think what I'm going to do is introduce the altitude problems in Sins of the Saviors, (the trip to and including Rimeskull) so they get the idea they will need to buy items for the later expedition, rather than having to teleport out of Xin Shalast. I can try, at least, sometimes hints just pass on by.

I checked, and the items you mentioned are NOT included in Sins, so I was considering a cache of those too, which should be significant to the players. Maybe a handy haversack with a couple of necklaces of adaptation will make them wonder about what's coming in the future.

Liberty's Edge

One thing I think all the arcane casters suffer from is the limitation of SRD spells only. Particularly, the orb spells from Complete Arcane. If you use them in your campaign, consider swapping out a few magic missiles for the Lesser Orbs (or non-offensive spells) and the full power orbs at 4th level. Empowered lesser orbs are quite effective. The sonic orb is a good choice, as its hard to defend against. Improved Mage Armor is also good.

Also - particularly for Mokmurian, give him some sort of ally, whether summoned, or just a guardian in his quarters. The one on 6 battle is very one-sided.

Liberty's Edge

I have a question about the location of the Spires. The text says it is in the 'death zone', and it is also mentioned that within the various buildings, air is maintained. How do the inhabitants get from building to building? I realize that isn't much of an issue NOW, but it would have been in the past. How does anyone get from the lower city to the Spires without serious problems? There's also a reference to dragons in the past with Necklaces of Adaptation, but none of the NPC's I checked have one, nor an equivalent item.

Also, how am I supposed to get my players (qualified or not) to take the Altitude Affinity feat, which appears to be nearly mandatory to complete the mod? Most don't qualify for it, and even if they did, how do they know they'll need it? At this rate, they'll climb to the lower city, then be stuck because they all come down with altitude sickness. There's no useful items in Runeforge or Jorgenfist, that I recall, if there are, please correct me.

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nullPlanet Stories Subscriber

Guys, I had to reluctantly discontinue my subscription. I love what you are doing with the line, though I still have some concerns about every book being the same price. I'll pick up books as I need to in the future, and most likely resume the subscription also.

Keep up the good work!

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Recently finished the last couple of Planet Stories books. The Dark World was interesting, though too short, I really would have liked to read something about what happened after Ganelon was defeated. I really did like Swordsman of Mars! Also recently went back into the archives and re-read the first two books in Donaldson's Gap series, which gets a lot better after book 1. Just finished His Majesty's Dragon, which was decent, but I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

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nullPlanet Stories Subscriber
Erik Mona wrote:

At the moment I think we'd prefer to focus on other authors. We have four Gygax books on the market and I'd like for those to find a larger audience before seriously considering a much longer series.

Please keep them in mind, I'd love to see them re-released, with better cover art on the last few.

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Azzy wrote:
James Laubacker wrote:
Actually, since I'm not aware of a comic with either of those characters, I was thinking of some of the Greyhawk NPC's, who were famous as part of the setting, and some of the famous NPC's of FR. But you made my point, those characters appeared in print as part of a story before they appeared elsewhere.
You’ve got some fallacious reasoning going on. For one, you are arbitrarily holding comic books/graphic novels and regular prose novels to different standards. There’s absolutely no reason that a graphic novel needs to have established characters when pose novels do not. If you’re not aware, the majority of the old D&D comics didn’t follow the adventures of established characters, but of characters created especially for the comic — just like the majority of the D&D prose novels contained stories about characters created specifically for those novels. Very few stories, regardless of format, follow a setting’s “ego characters” — Elminster being a notable (and lamentable) exception.

No, I'm just not explaining myself well. You're absolutely right, they don't, you can invent characters for graphic novels just like regular novels. However, if you want to create buzz about the campaign world, it would help if there was a tie-in, and I don't think the iconics are strong enough. A great comic/graphic novel would create buzz for Golarion, but I think it works better the other way around. Take someone or something from the campaign world that people are already interested in, expand on it in a graphic novel, and you get both more interest in the campaign world, and people who were interested in the campaign world will jump on the fiction.

To me, the iconics are stat blocks, and I can't even remember their names. If the authors had chosen to include the Runelords iconics in Crimson Throne as NPC's, I'd remember them, and be more interested. People who didn't buy the Runelords series won't have heard of them.

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James Jacobs wrote:

The problem with paladins is the perception that they tend to be too stuffy and inflexible, and that creates the situation where, unlike pretty much every other character class, they have built-in limitations on the types of adventures they can go on. All part of the reason paladins are my least-favorite character class, honestly (that, and the fact that they seem to attract disruptive players who enjoy using the LG code to throw parties into discord).

It's unlikely that a paladin (or most lawful or good characters) would get a kick out of working at the Gold Goblin, but that's why we created the character traits in the Second Darkness Player's Guide—to give those kinds of characters reasons to be interested in what's going on in the gambling house. Extracting ideas from there, here are a few reasons why a LG character might want to "work" at the Gold Goblin.

(Excellent RP analysis for paladins)

5) There's a weird blot in the sky above Riddleport, and the LG character could have been sent into town...

Thanks James, good stuff. You're right, its possible! Unfortunately, I've run into the other kind of paladins - the ones that are more NG than LG, and aren't disruptive at all, because they aren't really paladins...

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Blue_eyed_paladin wrote:

Just got my copy of Second Darkness, and while I liked some of it (especially the 'Deadwood' feel)... a few things popped up at me just from a quick reading.

1. Lavender Lil...** spoiler omitted **

I know this is just a small thing, but on an NPC who gets a 2-page spread in the Players' Guide, the PCs should sort of know what to expect.

2. Again... moral ambiguity. I don't want to go off on a crusade, but I'm tired of morally ambiguous heroes doing 'what needs to be done' to save the world.
Savage Tide WAAAY did it. Having the players be part-owners of a gambling hall, associating with crime lords, prostitutes, people who keep an imp in a cage and have a fighting pit out the back, who have an intelligent, evil magic item for entertainment... I'm really not interested in this kind of stuff. While I can recognize the plot twists and cool stuff involved (again, the 'Deadwood' feel)... I like that in a TV show where there's a definite good guy and definite (but maybe ambiguous) bad guys. It's not something that I want to roleplay.

It's the Book of Vile Darkness again (and let's please not re-open that festering old sore of an argument)... if someone wants vile (or morally ambiguous) content in the game, let them add it, don't make it a fixture.

This one bugged me too - would a paladin, or any other LG character actually accept working at the Goblin? Not sure they would, which immediately puts the party at odds with each other. I really have a problem with modules that can't (or shouldn't) be played by a Good alignment.

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Greg A. Vaughan wrote:
James Laubacker wrote:
Just one addendum, the name 'Lymas Smeed' struck a bad note with me. Since there's currently a 'Limas Sweed' in the real world sports news at the moment, its way too much of a coincidence, unless the real Mr. Sweed is a fan and told someone they could borrow his name. Something else to watch for, please!
It didn't come from Limas Sweed and it wasn't an Easter egg. Truth be told, its genesis actually came from Captain Hook's infamous first mate, Mr. Smee. Lymas does have a nice ring to it that flowed with the name (probably why Mr. Sweed's parents chose it as well). Though I did notice the similarity myself, it is not intended in any way as a reference to the University of Texas football player, nor did I borrow his name. Now why the Zincher gladiator "Ojay Samson" got cut from the adventure, I have no idea.

Funny!! Thanks for the explanation. I know you didn't mean it that way, but I couldn't help make the mental connection. I doubt too many other folks did (except big Steelers fans) so its cool.

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Azzy wrote:


I would assume he means all/any of the 12 iconics.

James Laubacker wrote:
Some of them have decent backstory, but because they've never done anything or appeared in novels, they won't instantly generate interest like well known NPC's from more established settings. This is one of the problems with a setting with no significant NPC's, there's no memorable personalities.

Memorable personalities.... Like Drizzt -- who first appeared in a novel? Or Raistlin -- who first appeared as the default wizard PC in a module?

Don't discount the iconics before they're featured in a novel/graphic novel/manga/movie.

Actually, since I'm not aware of a comic with either of those characters, I was thinking of some of the Greyhawk NPC's, who were famous as part of the setting, and some of the famous NPC's of FR. But you made my point, those characters appeared in print as part of a story before they appeared elsewhere.

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Just one addendum, the name 'Lymas Smeed' struck a bad note with me. Since there's currently a 'Limas Sweed' in the real world sports news at the moment, its way too much of a coincidence, unless the real Mr. Sweed is a fan and told someone they could borrow his name. Something else to watch for, please!

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Here's two scenarios that might help:

low Int, high Wis, Cha ? (not really relevant)

A cleric with a wand that does something they don't normally use on a daily basis, say Searing Light. At the end of a tough combat, when he hadn't used the wand, and the party tactician asks why, the answer is 'I always forget I have that darn thing.'. He's wise, uses his spells properly, but sometimes forgets things that aren't right under his nose or part of his routine. If someone reminds him, he'll blast away.

high Int, low Wis, Cha? (not relevant)
Similar situation, say a wizard or bard with a wand of Scorching Ray. At the end of a tough combat, when he hadn't used the wand, and the party tactician asks why he cast Acid Orb instead of using his CL 13 Wand of Scorching Ray, the answer is "I remembered I had it, but it didn't seem important enough to waste a charge.'. Smart enough to remember all his gear and what it is for, but not wise enough to find just the right time to take advantage of it. If someone reminds him, he may still not use it, as it just might not be the right time, or maybe the critter is mostly dead anyway in his (flawed) opinion.

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wrote:
I think the Iconics are very strong characters.

Which ones? The ones from Rise of the Runelords, or Second Darkness, or Crimson Throne? Aren't there 3 sets?

Some of them have decent backstory, but because they've never done anything or appeared in novels, they won't instantly generate interest like well known NPC's from more established settings. This is one of the problems with a setting with no significant NPC's, there's no memorable personalities.

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If its a graphic novel yes, manga, no. The problem I see, is that it has to have both a strong setting (which I think you have) and strong characters/NPCs... which we don't have yet. Not to mention technical details like good artwork and writing. I used to love the old AD&D and Forgotten Realms comics.

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[quote=] The reason I am in favor of them is the removal of the varying math round to round. I am in favor of a set amount regardless (hence my suggestions).

Anything that removes the "Hmmmm...not sure how much this round..." indecisiveness, spontaneous math, and metagaming to figure out exactly how much to PA without a chance to miss is a good step in my book.

I have to admit, in my game with relatively new players, power attack causes more delay than anything else when it comes to combat. That, and the requirement that you have to tell the DM what the power attack number is every round. If the goal is to simplify and speed up combat, the changes are good.

On the other hand, I've never been a fan of making D&D 'simpler', so it was fine the way it was.

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nullPlanet Stories Subscriber

My favorite so far has to be Samarkand Solution, closely followed by Almuric. I found Northwest of Earth to be too repetitive.

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